House of Commons Hansard #136 of the 35th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was grain.

Topics

Canada Labour CodeGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

Canada Labour CodeGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)

The recorded division on the motion stands deferred.

The next question is on Motion No. 3. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Canada Labour CodeGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Canada Labour CodeGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

Canada Labour CodeGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)

All those in favour will please say yea.

Canada Labour CodeGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Canada Labour CodeGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)

All those opposed will please say nay.

Canada Labour CodeGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

Canada Labour CodeGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

Canada Labour CodeGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)

The recorded division on the motion stands deferred.

In group No. 3, in accordance with the motion adopted earlier, the motions are deemed moved, seconded and read.

Canada Labour CodeGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC

moved:

Motion No. 5

That Bill C-66, in Clause 2, be amended by replacing lines 14 and 15 on page 5 with the following:

"any fees, that may be fixed by the Governor in Council pursuant to the recommendation made by the committee of the House of Commons referred to in subsection (1.1).

(1.1) Such committee of the House of Commons as is designated or established to consider matters respecting the development of human resources shall, for the purposes of subsection (1), recommend the fees to be fixed by the Governor in Council under that subsection. "

Canada Labour CodeGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

Reform

Dale Johnston Reform Wetaskiwin, AB

moved:

Motion No. 6

That Bill C-66, in Clause 2, be amended by adding after line 24 on page 5 the following:

"(3) Where a part-time member is paid travel and living expenses by virtue of subsection (2), and those expenses are incurred in the course of carrying out duties and responsibilities under this Act in respect of a dispute heard or determined by the Board, the parties to the dispute shall reimburse Her Majesty in right of Canada in equal parts for the money paid to the part-time member for those expenses and that money, until paid, constitutes a debt recoverable by action in any court of competent jurisdiction as a debt due to Her Majesty in right of Canada."

Canada Labour CodeGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC

moved:

Motion No. 7

That Bill C-66, in Clause 2, be amended by a ) replacing line 6 on page 8 with the following:

"13. (1) The head office of the Board must be in" b ) replacing line 9 on page 8 with the following:

"the Board may establish, with the approval of the committee of the House of Commons referred to in subsection (2), any other offices" c ) adding after line 12 on page 8 the following:

"(2) Such committee of the House of Commons as is designated or established to consider matters respecting the development of human resources shall, for the purposes of subsection (1), either approve or reject the establishment of any other offices of the Board under that subsection."

Motion No. 9

That Bill C-66, in Clause 16, be amended by replacing lines 23 to 25 on page 15 with the following:

"the Board may revoke the appointment"

Canada Labour CodeGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

Reform

Dale Johnston Reform Wetaskiwin, AB

moved:

Motion No. 45

That Bill C-66 be amended by deleting Clause 46.

Motion No. 49

That Bill C-66, in Clause 50, be amended by replacing line 36 on page 36 with the following:

"controlled by their employer, who have consented to the release of that information, and authorize the"

Canada Labour CodeGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC

moved:

Motion No. 50

That Bill C-66, in Clause 68, be amended by replacing lines 2 to 7 on page 41 with the following:

"shall present the report to the Standing Committee of the House of Commons on Human Resource Development at the first meeting of the committee following the completion of the report."

Canada Labour CodeGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

Saint-Léonard Québec

Liberal

Alfonso Gagliano LiberalMinister of Labour and Deputy Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

moved:

Motion No. 54

That Bill C-66, in Clause 93, be amended by adding after line 45 on page 46 the following:

"(3) Any amount appropriated for the fiscal year that includes the commencement day, by an appropriation Act based on the Estimates for that year for defraying the charges and expenses of the public service of Canada for the former Board and that, on the commencement day, is unexpended is deemed, on that day, to be an amount appropriated for defraying the charges and expenses of the new Board."

Canada Labour CodeGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC

Mr. Speaker, all along we have noticed the government's lack of co-operation on amendments dictated by common sense.

We are speaking on behalf of the witnesses who testified before us. They told us that in general this bill contained interesting things. We never pushed partisan politics to the point of saying that this piece of legislation was altogether bad; however, we believe it does not go far enough, it could have contained what we already

have in Quebec, very clear provisions dealing with unfair practices regarding replacement workers.

We would have liked this bill to be more explicit with regard to technological change and board membership.

Why not have made sure the wording was clear? As a lawyer, Mr. Speaker, and a brilliant one at that, you know how important it is for a piece of legislation to contain provisions which are very clear, which cannot give rise to ambiguous interpretation on the part of tribunals, either administrative tribunals or ordinary courts of law, and we would have liked the way members are appointed, not so much how they are appointed as whom they represent, to be extremely clear.

We would have liked to be able to proceed from lists submitted by both management and labour, along the lines of what we had suggested during consideration of Bill C-64, which established the Human Rights Tribunal and reviewed the Employment Equity Act. We had asked for lists which could have been used by the government.

You will understand that the minute it becomes clear, the minute it requires a commitment, the government tries to evade the issue. All the amendments in the third group follow the same logic: We say that it is true that, in the whole issue of labour relations, we should, as legislators, seek some balance between the rights and obligations of the employer on the one hand, and the rights and obligations of the unions on the other hand, keeping in mind that in our society we recognize the right to strike, as the ultimate pressure tactic, but according to very clear guidelines.

What we were trying to do, regarding the board and some governance issues like the creation of new tribunals, as allowed by Bill C-64, regarding compensation for their full or part time members, regarding travel and entertainment expenses, was give the Standing Committee on Human Resources Development the power to examine all the questions relating to the Canada Labour Code, so that it could study the whole matter and hold hearings.

I think this is a very healthy reflex we have always had since becoming the official opposition in this House, to make sure that the committees are involved in making decisions on a number of questions.

Never did we think an amendment like this one could obstruct the work of the Canada Labour Relations Board and the various tribunals that will be created; never did we intend or think, even in the boldest of our amendments, that this could be a stalling tactic preventing us from having a diligent board and a speedy process.

Let me give you an example. During the clause by clause consideration of the bill, I was with the hon. member for Mercier, who has 20 or so years of experience in the field of labour relations. Not many parliamentarians in this House can match that.

I would like to remind you that, when, as the official opposition, we were presented with a provision which we really felt would enable the Canada industrial relations board, formerly the Canada Labour Relations Board, to operate much faster and much more efficiently, we gave it our unconditional support-as the minutes will testify-because, when the clause by clause study of Bill C-66 first began, we as parliamentarians realized that there were a number of concerns about the board.

Some stakeholders, labour in particular, felt the internal workings of the board itself were cumbersome. We welcomed with great pleasure and enthusiasm the preliminary hearings on disclosure of evidence. I sense a certain reaction from you, Mr. Speaker, because you are very concerned about anything that relates to the law. We are very pleased by the fact that the board can sit with only one person. Obviously, when there is only one person involved, the issues discussed are very specific.

Therefore, anything that helps streamline the process will get the unequivocal support of the official opposition. For the sake of the board's legitimacy, integrity and effectiveness, it would be a good thing if, as regards the issue of travel and living expenses-and the makeup of a panel when deemed appropriate by the chairperson, since it is a prerogative of the chairperson to convene such a panel and to direct its composition according to very specific instructions-the human resources development committee could take part in the process.

The parliamentary secretary will correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that, during the last election campaign, government members, that is the Liberals, said they hoped that House committees would play a greater role, that parliamentary committees would be much more closely involved in the decision-making process than they currently are.

This is precisely the underlying philosophy behind the amendments now before the House. Is democracy not something that is very healthy? Is it not reassuring for those who are watching us to know that the official opposition hopes that House committees, which are made up of duly elected members of Parliament, can be involved in a number of decisions that are important to the governance of this country? This is what we are talking about.

Again, on a number of occasions, we have been very supportive of any clause in the bill that streamlines the process, so as to alleviate the backlog of cases before the Canada Labour Relations Board.

I simply cannot imagine the government rejecting these amendments, since they are directly inspired by the Liberal Party's philosophy, as stated in the red book.

Canada Labour CodeGovernment Orders

1:05 p.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc Mercier, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am glad to speak on the motions in Group No. 3, which includes several motions, following the speech made by my hon. colleague from Hochelaga-Maisonneuve.

First of all, I want to say that I find this stage a bit restrictive, since the human resources development committee considered this piece of legislation at an almost unacceptable pace, since we were deprived of a true second reading stage and since we have now reached report stage without having had the opportunity to criticize the bill as much as it deserves.

The bill contains provisions concerning the representativeness of the board. The minister clearly stated his willingness to have a representational board. However, it is extremely disquieting to read in this bill a clause that says: "The members of the Board other than the Chairperson and the Vice-Chairpersons are to be appointed by the Governor in Council on the recommendation of the Minister after consultation by the Minister with the organizations representative of employees or employers that the Minister considers appropriate"-therefore, the minister can appoint whom he pleases-"to hold office during good behaviour for terms not exceeding three years each, subject to removal by the Governor in Council at any time for cause".

If what we want is a representational board, we have to stipulate right from the start that the organizations involved will appoint their own representatives. Otherwise, the board will never be able to claim to be representational and the minister will have to eat humble pie.

I think it was extremely important to clarify this particular point, because the government would have us believe that this will be a representational board, but it is even more important, as the hon. member for Hochelaga-Maisonneuve mentioned, to ensure that parliamentarians make their presence felt and exert continuing control over this new organization, this newly appointed Canada Industrial Relations Board.

There is one amendment in this group of motions that I have to criticize. It was put forward by the third party who wants board expenses to be reimbursed in equal parts by the parties to the dispute. This provision is extremely dangerous since the board will have to carry out its duties whenever needed and not only according to the capacity of the parties to pay.

This would introduce an unspeakable bias, because it could very well be that a small union with few members, that was able to emerge only after a very long fight, may not be able to afford the services of the board, while the employer or the group of employers could easily afford them. This would fly in the face of common sense, because the search for a harmonious settlement or, at least, a final settlement in accordance with the the rules governing labour relations, as well as the board's judicious intervention, cannot be dependent upon the parties' ability to pay. There is something absolutely absurd and regressive in this idea which, I think, is not even worth considering.

The provisions included in this grouping lead me to talk about another amendment which has been put forward by our party. This amendment to clause 34 is designed to allow the board, in cases where an employer representative has been appointed, to revoke the appointment of this representative for reasons other than what is specified in the bill. I invite the minister's representative to listen carefully because this small amendment could be most useful.

In clause 34, on page 15, the bill specifies a reason for revoking an appointment. It reads as follows:

On application by one or more employers of employees in the bargaining unit, the Board may, if it is satisfied that the employer representative is no longer qualified to act in that capacity, revoke the appointment of the employer representative and appoint a new representative.

It need not be because the employer representative is no longer qualified to act in that capacity. This requirement could complicate things for the board. It could be for another reason, which should be left to the board's judgment, without requiring it on top of that to be critical of someone that should not be there, but not for the reason that he is no longer qualified.

I make this comment in the hope that the minister's parliamentary secretary will take note. It is a minor point, but one which could be useful to the board's work.

I will take the few minutes remaining to me to return to this deeply disturbing issue of the board not being representational. The board is being transformed, supposedly to make it more representational. But, if we rely on the terms on the bill, and not on the good faith of the minister, the board will not be representational.

I predict a rocky road for this board that is nonetheless so vital to labour relations in Canada. When the minister has full latitude to decide who will make up the board, and then to pronounce it representational, how can anyone think that a employer or employee organization would feel it was well represented when someone from this organization could appear on the board, unless it was someone appointed by the organization? All this is possible under the bill as it now stands. It makes no sense at all. I can tell you that I was not at all surprised by all the intense lobbying from organizations on this issue.

There is still time for the government to redeem itself, but it seems to me that the fact that the board is not representational is a very serious obstacle, when it has been announced like this, and when they want to transform its role, as they are doing here.

Canada Labour CodeGovernment Orders

1:15 p.m.

Bloc

Osvaldo Nunez Bloc Bourassa, QC

Mr. Speaker, I wish to support the motion tabled by the hon. member for Hochelaga-Maisonneuve, especially where it concerns the CLRB, the Canada Labour Relations Board.

At one time I wrote to the minister responsible for this board about the problems facing this body, the lack of leadership shown by the chairman and the lack of representative members on the board. That is why I support this motion, which asks the minister to appoint board members from lists provided by management and labour.

In Quebec we do not have a labour relations board. We have an office of the labour commissioner-general. So we have one person who hands down a decision. However, we do have grievance adjudicators, who are appointed from lists submitted by employers and the unions.

I think this would also be a way to limit the use of patronage appointments, thus giving the board far more credibility with labour and management.

I would also like to point out that unfortunately, this bill contains no provisions for federally regulated businesses concerning the preventive withdrawal of pregnant women, especially the many pregnant women in the federal public service. We are not discussing part II of the Canada Labour Code, but amendments to part I.

Nevertheless, I want to emphasize the need for passing legislation as soon as possible concerning the preventive withdrawal of women. I know that a petition to that effect is being circulated throughout Quebec.

It will soon be March 8, which is International Women's Day. As you know, women are becoming increasingly aware of this fundamental right, which all women have in Quebec in provincially regulated businesses. I fail to see how a woman working for the provincial government can have this right while a woman in the same building who works for the federal public service does not. I will continue to insist on this in the weeks to come.

I also support other demands put forward by my colleagues from Mercier and Hochelaga-Maisonneuve, especially the need for including provisions dealing with technological change in the Canada Labour Code.

There is some legislation in Quebec that contains very clear provisions on technological change, but these should also be included at the federal level. I know that many unions have been able to negotiate very clear cut and advanced provisions on technological change. However, not all unions are in a position to negotiate such provisions, hence the need for providing specific provisions on technological change in the Canada Labour Code.

Once again, I wish to commend the hon. member for Hochelaga-Maisonneuve on the fantastic job he has done on the subject as the official opposition's labour critic. Congratulations.

Canada Labour CodeGovernment Orders

1:20 p.m.

Reform

Dale Johnston Reform Wetaskiwin, AB

Mr. Speaker, we are now debating Group No. 3 which contains amendments proposed by the Reform Party.

I would like to speak specifically to Motion No. 5. The Standing Committee on Human Resources Development should have some scrutiny over the remuneration paid to the CLRB. The main estimates for 1996-97 show that the total program budget for the CLRB is $8,791,000. That budget is not broken down enough to show much detail. By bringing this to the board it would allow parliamentarians to scrutinize how the money is spent and on what it is spent: how much of it is wages, how much is travel, how much is expenses, et cetera.

Further, a motion suggests that part time members of the CLRB should be absorbed by the parties that are involved in the dispute. That should apply only to part time members and would go a long way in helping parties resolve their problems themselves rather than bringing so many decisions to the board. At least it would not be overloading the taxpayer to settle one argument after another.

Reform supports Motion No. 5. We agree that the board should have some scrutiny and knowledge of where the taxpayers' money is being spent in this particular area. We are not interested in micro-management but we are interested in the overall picture. If the matter did come to the standing committee it would at least give us an opportunity to question departmental officials.

There was a lot of talk in committee regarding the certification of unions and whether that can be accomplished for off site workers with or without their permission. Can it be accomplished only when a majority of the workers agree on the certification of a union or if the CLRB can decide when there was interference or at least undue pressure put on the employees.

To back up my point, recently there was a case where the majority of the people did not support the formation and certification of a union but the board ruled in favour of the union because the company suggested that the formation of a union might jeopardize jobs and it might have to shut down some of its operations. The board ruled in favour of the union and the union was certified without a majority of employee members wanting it. That is wrong. It is against our democratic principles. I believe that if a majority of the employees in any operation would like to certify a union then they should be allowed to do so. The key word here is majority.

There are several other amendments in Group No. 3 that I would be pleased to speak to at a later date.

Canada Labour CodeGovernment Orders

1:25 p.m.

Hillsborough P.E.I.

Liberal

George Proud LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Labour

Mr. Speaker, the official opposition has put forward motions that would give the Standing Committee on Human Resources Development a role in the remuneration of board members, the establishment of regional board offices and the tabling of the annual report with respect to the information obtained under the Corporations and Labour Unions Returns Act.

Bill C-66 reflects the consensus of the labour management working group and the recommendations of the Sims task force with respect to the establishment of a new representational Canada Industrial Labour Relations Board.

The new board is structured to ensure effective and efficient administration of the code and to better reflect the labour and management communities it serves across the country. With respect to the remuneration of board members, as is the case with other governor in council appointees, remuneration and fees will be set by the governor in council.

GIC positions are evaluated using a position classification plan which ensures that appropriate relativities are maintained between different levels of responsibility not only within a given organization but between organizations. It allows for outside and inside compensation relativity comparisons and application of the principle of salary equity. Such factors could not be ensured if the remuneration of the board members were to be determined through a different process from other governor in council appointees.

Bill C-66 as drafted authorizes the board to establish regional offices that the chairperson considers necessary for the proper performance of the board's mandate. I fail to see any rationale for giving a standing committee of the House a role in determining what is strictly an operational issue.

Motion No. 50, the filing of the CALURA report with respect to the Corporations and Labour Unions Returns Act. There is a requirement in the act for the minister responsible to table a report in Parliament. Standing Order 32(5) already provides that where a report is provided to Parliament pursuant to a statutory obligation it is deemed to have been referred to the appropriate committee.

Motion No. 6, expenses of part time members. My colleague in the Reform Party seeks to introduce in the code the cost recovery concept, but only with respect to expenses incurred by the part time representative members of the board. To require the parties to reimburse the expenses of the part time representative members would impose a financial burden on small employers as well as on individual employees who wish to exercise their fundamental rights or seek redress of unfair labour practices. Such financial barriers would limit the benefits of this new representational structure of the board to those parties who can afford it.

Motion No. 9, revocation of employer representative. The official opposition is also asking to modify the provision in Bill C-66 which would allow the board at the request of one or more employers to revoke the designation of an employer representative in the longshoring industry if the board is satisfied that the employer representative is no longer qualified to act in that capacity.

This provision was included in Bill C-66 in order to address the current lack of explicit statutory authority to change employer representatives, an issue which was brought to the attention of the task force by the employers active in the longshoring industry in St. Lawrence River ports. No views or positions were put forward by the unions involved in the geographical certification regime in those ports with respect to this provision. Quite frankly, we fail to understand the rationale for this motion.

Motion No. 45, certification as remedy. With respect to the motion by my colleague from the Reform Party to delete clause 46 of Bill C-66 which authorizes the Canada Industrial Relations Board to issue a certification order as remedy for employer unfair labour practices, I would like to underline once again that this is a recommendation of the task force. While in the majority of cases existing remedies in the code for unfair labour practices are sufficient to discourage violations or to redress illegitimate actions, in some cases employee efforts to unionize are met with vigorous employer opposition tactics such as firing of known union supporters.

Such illegitimate acts may not only put a chill on organizing efforts, they may make it impossible to measure union support because of workers' fears of retaliation. With the exception of the Alberta board, labour boards in Canada have the statutory discretion to certify an applicant trade union when employer tactics are such that the true wishes of the employee cannot be determined by holding a representation vote. Labour boards exercise this discretion cautiously and use certification to remedy only the most egregious cases of employer misconduct.

The board will retain the discretion to hold a representation vote in any application. However, it will have the means to remedy these exceptional cases where employer misconduct has made it impossible to determine the true wishes of the employees by holding a representation vote.

On a related issue, we have heard the view expressed that the Canada Labour Code should provide for a mandatory representation vote. I would like to point out that the Sims task force studied this issue in detail. The task force was not persuaded that the card base system is an ineffective way of gauging employee wishes with respect to certification applications. The task force found that

timeliness is important in dealing with certification applications and noted that the practical impediments to timely votes in the geographically extended federal jurisdiction and the cost of such votes cannot be ignored and concluded that no legislative amendment was warranted.

Motion No. 49 is with respect to off site workers. The Reform Party is also seeking to require the board to obtain the consent of individual off site workers prior to providing their names and addresses to an applicant trade union. This provision of the bill has been the subject of some controversy which has been fuelled primarily by a poor understanding of its purpose and scope.

Contrary to what some of it intimated, this provision is in no way intended to give trade unions physical access to the private homes of off site workers which without the workers' consent would clearly violate their rights to privacy.

As recommended by the task force, under this new provision the board will be responsible for determining under what circumstances the names and addresses of off site workers will be provided in order that the union may communicate with them by mail, by telephone or by electronic means. The board must specify in the order the conditions to be met by the trade union to ensure the protection of privacy and the safety of the employees concerned.

We ask the members to support clause 50 of Bill C-66. As drafted it strikes a fair balance between the rights of the off site workers to exercise their freedom of association and their rights to privacy and safety.

Motion No. 54 is with respect to transfer of appropriations. The Minister of Labour has put forward an amendment with respect to a transitional matter. Adoption of Motion No. 54 will allow unexpended appropriations for the current Canada Labour Relations Board to be transferred to the new board when it is established. This will permit the new board to be established without undue delay and ensure there is no interruption in the administration of part I of the Canada Labour Code.

Canada Labour CodeGovernment Orders

1:35 p.m.

Reform

John Williams Reform St. Albert, AB

Mr. Speaker, as I look at the motions in Group No. 3, I must state that I cannot agree with my hon. colleague who tried to speak on behalf of the Reform Party, which seems to be one of those things the Liberals think they are good at. I would rather that they try to justify the legislation they bring forward, but I realize that can be hard. Surely we can speak for ourselves and we hope they would justify their position.

Motion No. 7 requires the Canada Industrial Relations Board to seek approval from the human resources development committee on the location of its head office and regional offices. This the type of blatant political interference we want to stay away from. I cannot think of any reason whatsoever that the HRD committee would be in command of better knowledge, better decision making ability or more information as to where these offices should be located than the institution itself.

That is why the Reform Party, legitimately and with common sense, is opposed to this type of motion. Politics has no real place in the management of allowing these boards to do their own jobs. Do we in the House of Commons think we are going to get into micromanagement right down to where the offices are going to be located, how much rent they are going to pay, how much square footage per employee they will have, how many telephone lines they are going to put in? Surely we would be able to delegate some authority. It seems absolutely preposterous that we would reserve this for ourselves, that we alone could make this type of decision. It is commons sense that we would oppose this motion. I hope everyone else would do the same.

Motion No. 9 of the bill would allow the CIRB to revoke the appointment of an employer representative if it believed the representative no longer qualified to act, et cetera. I am a little concerned about the one sidedness of this motion. It would allow the CIRB to revoke the appointment of an employer person on the board but it says absolutely nothing about a union representative on the board. This type of imbalance in legislation is what we do not want.

Again, with common sense and with a normal type of representation in this House, the Reform Party says surely this type of motion does not belong in the legislation on the books of Canada. Therefore we legitimately oppose this motion.

I have a concern about Motion No. 45, which deletes the section allowing certification of a union without the majority support. I am concerned about the House getting involved in legislation giving power to the CIRB to basically be its own judge, jury and execution. This is the type of information that we see coming forward in Motion No. 45.

When I look at Motion No. 49, it is not a bad motion, giving an off site worker the option of having names and locations provided to the union representative and organizers. I am opposed to the Liberal position that the CIRB, again in its wisdom of being judge, jury and executioner, will be given the right to determine on what basis private information is going to be given to a third party.

I understand that there has been a study done by the government. It has spent a significant number of dollars, I understand about

$600,000, to study this type of information. It is still waiting for that report to come back. However, government has decided to proceed, to go ahead with the legislation anyway, rather than waiting for any kind of return on its investment.

Speaking to this issue, I find it very disconcerting that time and time again in this House we find that individual rights are being trampled on. The legislation would give the CIRB the right to pass on the names without the person's having any real input, saying "no, I do not want that to happen".

Is that not much different from when the government introduced its gun legislation and gave the peace officers the right to search and to seize without a search warrant? We see this type of legislation creep in in various other areas.

We are trampling all over individual rights with this type of legislation. We are doing it again in Bill C-66. If this government has its way, it will do that whenever it wants. Canadians will rise up and say "it is time that these guys got out of here and we put in somebody who does recognize that individual rights are there for a reason". That is why we are opposed to this motion.

The acrimony that can exist between management and unions in the event of a strike can be quite serious. It is our position to do everything we can to try to foster harmony and to bring that broken relationship together again so that management and labour can continue to produce goods and services to earn a living.

If we think the CIRB will be the font of all knowledge, be endowed with wisdom beyond the average man, be given powers that are vague, undetermined and yet very significant, and if we think these people will be able to do this type of job as a middleman, especially if it happens to be filled with patronage appointments by Liberals who are passed over or who did not win the election, we would find it rather difficult to put any credibility in the board whatsoever.

Therefore the Reform Party and common sense say surely this bill which says that this information can be passed to the unions under certain circumstances should be changed to allow it provided that the people agree.

Otherwise we will find that there will be a backlash down the road. It may be a backlash that the government does not come back after the election. Would that not be nice? It would be nice. Perhaps the government would have to reconsider.

Motion No. 50 would have the corporation returns act tabled in the House. I understand that our hon. colleagues from the separatist party want it referred to the HRD committee. I imagine that would be a matter of course. If we see a return tabled in the House we would, as a matter of course, refer it to the individual committee. I do not know exactly what my separatist friends are trying to achieve by this motion.

However, it may be like all the rest of the motions they have proposed which basically are to disrupt the entire management of the government and the affairs of Canada. I will just leave it at that.

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1:45 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)

Is the House ready for the question?

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1:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Question.

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1:45 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)

The question is on Motion No. 5. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?