House of Commons Hansard #137 of the 35th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was health.

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PensionsPrivate Members' Business

7:35 p.m.

NDP

Len Taylor NDP The Battlefords—Meadow Lake, SK

Madam Speaker, today I am very proud to sponsor and debate private members' motion M-53 which supports the cause of British pensioners living in Canada. As I will outline in my remarks today, these people have been unfairly treated and deserve our support in every way we can provide it.

This is certainly not a new issue. It has been around for a long time and I am pleased to say that, informally, the Government of Canada has been supportive of British pensioners living in Canada. It is time that the government became a little more formal in its requests of the British government and that is the reason for my motion today.

When I say that we have been supportive informally, let me quote from a recent letter that I received signed by Canada's former Minister of Human Resources Development, the present Minister of National Defence.

The minister said: "The Government of Canada has been very active for many years in trying to persuade the United Kingdom to conclude a social security agreement that would provide for the indexing of British pensions.

"Prime Minister Chrétien has raised the issue of frozen British pensions on several occasions with Prime Minister John Major.

"These included his visits to London in June, 1994, for the commemoration of the 50th anniversary of D-Day and his visit marking the 50th anniversary of V-E Day.

"These occasions were especially appropriate, given that so many of the British pensioners in Canada are either themselves veterans of the second world war, or the widows of veterans.

"Canada's High Commissioner to the United Kingdom has also been very active on the issue of frozen British pensions.

"The high commissioner and his staff have had numerous meetings with United Kingdom cabinet ministers and with both government and opposition members of Parliament.

"It is clear from these meetings that the U.K. is not about to consider unfreezing its pensions in Canada. However, I can assure you that the Government of Canada will continue to do everything we can to try to persuade the British government to change its position".

That was a letter that I recently received from the former Minister of Human Resources Development. Obviously, the government is committed to the substance contained in the motion in front of us today.

I have also been told that the current minister, the hon. member for Papineau-Saint-Michel, was in London in mid-January, just a short five weeks ago. At that time he raised the frozen pension issue again with his counterpart.

The government is on side with this motion. I hope it will say so again today in this debate. Support in the House of Commons, in public debate, is worth so much more than comments made in private meetings. The word of the minister is one thing, but the voice of Parliament is another. By supporting the motion today, members of the House can help to add the voice of Parliament to the voice of the minister in support of these very deserving people.

For the members of the House who do not yet know why this is important, let me take a minute to outline the issue.

Pensions for elderly British expatriates resident in Canada are frozen at the level paid on the first date of payment or at the date when the individual took up residence in Canada. The same situation exists for almost 425,000 elderly expatriate residents in 137 other countries throughout the world. Yet, at the same time, some 325,000 British expatriate pensioners residing in some 37 other countries enjoy the same annual upgrading enjoyed by the equivalent pensioner beneficiaries living in the United Kingdom.

All of these pensioners, regardless of where they live, accrued their credits toward a state pension on the same basis. During their working life in the United Kingdom, they all paid into the fund in

the same way and reasonably assumed that they would all benefit on an equal basis when it came time to draw their pensions.

Successive British governments have failed to correct this completely unfair and discriminatory situation. The British old age security pension is indexed, in part, to the British retail price index and is subject to being upgraded in April of each year. Since 1965 the value of the pension for pensioners residing in Britain and the 37 other non-frozen countries has increased over 15 times its 1965 value.

The Canadian Alliance of British Pensioners gives this example of how unfair the pension plan is. A 65-year-old man living in Britain who became eligible for a full British pension in 1974 is now receiving a pension of £61.15 per week. If that same individual, on retirement, had elected to move to Canada to be close to his children or other members of his family or for any other reason, he would still be eligible for a pension, but only for the same level of pension paid to him when he left the country, possibly around £10 per week. The amount of the pension would never have changed over the period from 1974 to today. That is clearly discriminatory.

The matter has hit the floor of the House of Commons in Britain and numerous MPs there want to see changes brought about. In July 1994, for example, Winston S. Churchill, MP, said with regard to a particular case being debated:

That lady and others like her are being cheated-there is no other word for it-by the government of £53.60 per week of the pension to which she contributed.

If we were talking about a private personal pension or a life insurance policy, and the directors of the company tried to restrict the territorial area of payment, I am sure that my hon. friend, the minister, would have a shrewd idea of where those directors would be languishing now.

They would be in jail, and rightly so.

In my constituency there is a Dr. Derek and his wife Kathy Brown who now live near Big River, Saskatchewan. On their retirement they came to Canada to get away from the crowds of Britain and were told when they left that their pension would be payable worldwide. Derek Brown was a doctor in Britain for most of his working life and his pension was a full one when he claimed it 10 years ago. Now, because he lives in Canada and because his pension is not indexed, his £42.50 per week is nearly £20 a week less than he would get if he were to move back to Britain.

Dr. Brown says:

The thing that annoys us is that they say they cannot afford to do it for us.

But they index the pensions paid in the United States, but not for us in Canada.

It is this discrimination that we are so fed up with.

Dr. Brown has also written to me to say that he thinks the motion before us today should be somewhat amended to replaced the word indexed with the word prorated since the pensions in Britain are not exactly indexed to the cost of living. This would be quite acceptable and I would propose this change be made should the motion be sent to committee.

During the past few weeks since the motion was drawn for debate I have received many letters from British pensioners in support of the motion. I will quote one letter in particular written by Miss Elaine Dawn of Vancouver, British Columbia. She writes:

I am writing to request that you please support the current plight of British pensioners who live in Canada who, due to no fault of their own have, had their pensions frozen at the rate at which they first entered this country.

I am sure you will agree that this is very unfair considering just south of the border in the United States, British pensioners can enjoy the same indexing of pensions as if they had continued to live in England.

It certainly seems very unfair to me that certain countries support British pensioners while others, like Australia and Canada, have frozen the pensions of British subjects at the same level at which they entered their country.

I am sure you will agree that this has meant a great deal of hardship to many people.

Miss Dawn's letter says what many others said to me in similar letters received during the past four or five weeks.

While I was preparing for this debate today, Mr. Doug Ross, president of the Canadian Alliance of British Pensioners, wrote to me to let me know that in Britain the House of Commons select committee for social security had tabled its report on pension benefits for expatriates living in countries like Canada.

He told me that hearings had been held in London during December 1996, following which the committee issued a report that admitted the design of the current policies of pensions to expatriates was a mess. It also acknowledged that Britain was alone among OECD countries in failing to pay up ratings, as they call them, equally to all the beneficiaries of state contributory pension plans regardless of where they live.

However the committee disappointed many. It fell short of accepting the requests of the pensioner groups which asked them to recommend to the government that it should end the discriminatory practice of using country of residence as a factor in the determination of pension benefits. Instead the committee simply turned the problem over to the government by taking the unusual stand for a committee in Britain of recommending a free vote in the British Parliament to allow members of the British House to express their opinions.

Britain is about due for an election. There is no opportunity or time for this vote to be called. If an election is held and a new house is created with new members of Parliament, the report of the committee will no longer be valid. The next government will not be

required, as the motion puts it, to present any motion to the house for members to vote on. Therefore this pass on of responsibility is a great disappointment to those who appeared before the committee.

Mr. Ross and the Canadian Alliance of British Pensioners in particular have informed me of how disappointed they are the issue is not yet resolved. They have told me they appreciate the efforts of the Canadian government in support of their campaign to end pension discrimination, but at the same time they feel strongly Canada and other Commonwealth countries must take a much more aggressive stance in their bilateral dealings to step up the pressure on Westminster to end the disgraceful practice of freezing the pensions of some expatriates.

Mr. Ross writes that there are 718,000 British expatriates resident in Canada. Some 137,000 of them have some level of current frozen U.K. state pensions earned during the period they lived, worked and served in the United Kingdom. An end to pension freezing by Britain would ease the plight of thousands of cash strapped pensioners living in Canada and would directly inject $150 million in the first year into the Canadian economy.

It is time our Parliament supported the cause of the British expatriate pensioners. This motion which costs the government nothing serves to enhance the position already taken by the government in bilateral international discussions. It adds the voice of Parliament to the voice of the government to the voice of the minister speaking in Britain.

I expect to receive unanimous support of the members speaking in this debate. Therefore I serve notice that it is my intention to rise at the end of the debate to request unanimous consent to move the appropriate motion which would allow us to send the matter to committee for further action. I look forward to the support and comments of other members of the Chamber.

PensionsPrivate Members' Business

7:50 p.m.

Liberal

Ian Murray Liberal Lanark—Carleton, ON

Madam Speaker, I thank the member for The Battlefords-Meadow Lake for his motion.

The British pensions paid to some 130,000 persons in Canada are frozen. In other words, they are not increased from year to year to compensate for rises in the cost of living. The same situation exists in many other countries around the world including Australia, New Zealand and South Africa.

This is not the case everywhere in the world. Under the European Union's regulations on social security, for example, the United Kingdom indexes annually the pensions it pays to persons who have retired in the Costa del Sol, the French Riviera or elsewhere in the EU.

Under social security agreements the United Kingdom has concluded with many other countries around the world British pensions are also indexed in these countries. They include, to name a few, Bosnia, Croatia, Cyprus, Israel, Turkey and the United States.

For 20 years the Government of Canada has been trying to persuade the United Kingdom to conclude a social security agreement that would lead to the annual indexing of the British pensions paid in Canada. The United Kingdom has repeatedly refused because of the costs it would incur.

The issue of frozen British pensions has been raised at every level. The Prime Minister has personally discussed it twice with Prime Minister John Major. The Minister of Foreign Affairs discussed the unfreezing issue at his first bilateral meeting with the British Foreign Secretary.

Most recently, in January of this year, the Minister of Human Resources Development went to London and personally discussed the issue with his British counterpart, the Secretary of State for Social Security. I regret to say the British reply is always the same: the United Kingdom cannot afford to index its pensions in Canada.

The Government of Canada believes the fundamental issue at the heart of the unfreezing issue is fairness. The persons who are receiving frozen pensions contributed to the British national insurance scheme during their working years in the United Kingdom. They made these contributions in the expectation they would eventually receive a pension in retirement irrespective of where they might choose to live.

Now, however, depending on which country they decide to spend their retirement years in their British pension may or may not be frozen. The unfairness is compounded by the fact that most of today's British pensioners in Canada served the United Kingdom during World War II or are the widows of British veterans. This point was emphatically made by the Prime Minister when he met with Prime Minister Major on the occasion of the commemoration of the 50th anniversaries of D-Day and V-E Day.

There is also a humanitarian consideration. Many of the British pensioners in Canada came to our country so that they could spend their retirement years with their children and grandchildren who immigrated here. Their frozen British pensions make them more financially dependent on their families. For many this can mean a loss of dignity.

There are undoubtedly also some pensioners in Britain who would like to join their families in Canada but have not done so because their British pensions will be frozen.

On February 5 the social security committee of the British House of Commons released a report on the issue of frozen British pensions. The report unfortunately did not call directly on the U.K. government to change its position on unfreezing. However it pointed out the illogic of the current British policy of indexing its pensions in some countries and not in others. In the words of the report:

Surely no one would have deliberately designed a policy of paying pensions to people living abroad intending to end up in the position we are in today-It is impossible to discern any pattern behind the selection of countries with whom bilateral agreements have been made providing for unfreezing.

The committee's report goes on to recommend a free vote in the British House of Commons:

-to allow members to express their opinion on the principle of whether the government should pay upgradings to some or all of those pensioners living in countries where upgradings are not paid at present.

The Government of Canada views this as a positive suggestion. We hope it will be adopted by the United Kingdom.

I urge all members of the House to support the motion put forward by the hon. member for The Battlefords-Meadow Lake. The government is already strongly committed to vigorously pursuing an agreement with the United Kingdom that provides for the indexing of British pensions.

Unanimous adoption of the motion will clearly demonstrate the commitment of all parties in the House and of all Canadians to the resolution of this long outstanding problem.

PensionsPrivate Members' Business

7:55 p.m.

Reform

John Williams Reform St. Albert, AB

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I wonder if you seek unanimous consent of the House to delete Motion No. 259 in the name of the member for Calgary Southwest from the Order Paper and replace the name of the hon. member for Calgary West with the name of the member for Calgary Southwest as the sponsor of Private Members' Bill C-341 on the Order Paper.

PensionsPrivate Members' Business

7:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)

Is there unanimous consent?

PensionsPrivate Members' Business

7:55 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

PensionsPrivate Members' Business

7:55 p.m.

Reform

Ian McClelland Reform Edmonton Southwest, AB

Madam Speaker, since other members are interested in speaking to the motion I will keep my comments brief.

When I was asked to speak to the motion my first reaction was what business was it of ours. This is a pension problem for some Canadian citizens but it is the responsibility of the British government to be make these payments. If the shoe were on the other foot, how would I feel if the government in Westminster were making decisions or passing resolutions that had to do with how Canada treated its expatriate citizens as far as pensions were concerned?

When I looked into it I wondered why on earth a pensioner who lives in Canada would be treated any different from the way the same person living in the United States would be treated. It just did not make any sense to me.

I quite cheerfully take up the cudgel on behalf expatriated Britons living in Canada who are scattered fairly evenly across the country. There are perhaps proportionately a few more living in the maritimes than in the rest of the country.

For the interest of members of Parliament present and those at home fixed to the television watching this debate, it is of particular interest that Britain does not index the pensions paid to expatriated Britons living in Commonwealth or former Commonwealth countries. Canada, New Zealand, Australia, South Africa and Zimbabwe are the countries where Britain does not index pensions. Yet it does in Germany, France and other countries in the Economic Union.

In 1996 the stated British government reason for the discrimination was that the other countries had entered into agreements with the British government. Alternatively indexation is a requirement of the European Economic Community. Britain has entered into an agreement to index the pensions in the European Economic Community but not with Canadians.

It is interesting to note that if a pensioner lived in, as one example, Bosnia, they would be collecting a fully indexed pension. However, because they live in a former Commonwealth country or Canada they do not.

On behalf of the Reform Party and on behalf of those British ex-patriot citizens resident in Canada and who have come to us and other members of Parliament to ask that we take up their case, I am happy to do so.

I know the member opposite, who will soon be on her feet, will be taking up the cudgel on behalf of the British ex-patriots living in Canada as well.

There are 208,000 British pensioners living in Canada right now. Fifty-two thousand live in British Columbia. If the pensions to ex-patriot British pensioners living in Canada were fully indexed and were paid it would mean an additional $200 million annually to the budget at Westminster. There are many ex-patriot Canadians resident in Britain. Those ex-patriot Canadians resident in Britain benefit from the fact that we pay their indexed pensions. Does it not seem reasonable that Britain should also index the pensions to ex-patriots from Britain living in Canada? It seems to me that it would make good sense to do that.

I will terminate my comments on this subject by once again reiterating the fact that on behalf of the Reform Party we support

this motion. I understand that the member for Battlefords-Meadowlake has served notice that he will be asking for this motion to be made votable. We would certainly support that.

Seeing the member opposite ready to rise to her feet, I will terminate my comments.

PensionsPrivate Members' Business

8 p.m.

Liberal

Brenda Chamberlain Liberal Guelph—Wellington, ON

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank my hon. colleague who is a gentleman always.

It is with pleasure that I rise to speak in support of this motion which calls upon the Government of Canada to seek an agreement with the British government that would require the British government to begin paying costs of living increases to British pensioners living in Canada.

I thank the hon. member for the Battlefords-Meadowlake for raising this issue. I am also grateful to my constituents who have written to me to raise my awareness to their concerns.

The United Kingdom is the country of origin of the largest number of immigrants to Canada since the second world war. Many have made significant contributions to the prosperity of Canada. As members know, Guelph is called the royal city. We are proud of our heritage which is tied to Great Britain.

It is therefore troubling that in spite of the efforts of the Government of Canada over the last 20 years there is still no social security agreement in place between our two countries to protect the pension rights of British pensioners in Canada. We are discussing pension rights of a significant number of people, estimated at around 130,000. These people are being hurt because the British government refuses to provide them with the same protection against inflation that is enjoyed by British pensioners living in the United Kingdom, the European Union and a number of other countries with which the United Kingdom has social security agreements.

I believe that the policy of the current British government is illogical. All the people we are talking about have contributed to the British pension plan and believed when they did that they would be paid a pension to which they were entitled and that everyone would be treated fairly and in the same way. This is not the case.

The current policy of the British government therefore treats some of its citizens more equally than others. The situation exists where many British pensioners living in Canada, including those living in Guelph-Wellington, who wrote to me only recently received considerably less than those in Great Britain who made exactly the same contributions but who reside in the United Kingdom or in countries with which the United Kingdom has social security agreements.

Is this unfair? Of course it is. This has resulted in a significant loss of income for some pensioners living in Canada. Many of these people moved to this country to be closer to their children and their grandchildren and the reduction in their pension income has been very difficult.

I am told that in some cases these pensioners who worked all of their lives and contributed to the British pension plan are now dependent on their families. This has resulted in a loss of dignity.

For people who spent their lives hoping and contributing for a decent pension plan, this must be quite a blow. Interestingly, the inconsistency of this policy has been recognized by members of Parliament in Britain.

A recent British parliamentary committee studying this issue noted that there seems to be no pattern to this system, which provides indexing for some but not for others.

In addition, the report went on to observe that no one would have deliberately set out to design such a system. However, this is the situation faced by thousands of people living in Canada. Something obviously has to be done if this double standard is to be eliminated. It is time for the British government to act.

I was saddened to learn that the current British government seemed no more willing to correct this situation now than it has been for the past 20 years. The reason appears to be that the cost of fixing this injustice is estimated to be about $16.8 million in the first year and this figure is growing over time to about $150 million per year.

As a supporter of fiscal restraint and deficit reduction, I appreciate the difficulties that this means for the British government. However, we must insist that the British treat its pensioners living in Canada in exactly the same way as those living in the United Kingdom and other country by providing them with the same indexation of benefits enjoyed by pensioners living elsewhere.

The Canadian government has tried to make its position clear. For instance, the Prime Minister spoke to British Prime Minister Major about this when they met during the 50th anniversary of D-Day and the 50th anniversary of V-E Day.

As well, the Minister of Foreign Affairs raised this issue with his British counterpart at their first bilateral meeting. More recently, the Minister of Human Resources Development discussed this with the British secretary of state and with various spokespersons of the opposition during his visit to London in January.

He emphasized then how strongly the Government of Canada feels about this issue. These are concrete examples that show the determination of this government to see this matter through to a

successful conclusion. I remain hopeful that the British government will change its attitude on this issue.

Last October, I shared with this House my motion calling for a seniors bill of rights. At that time I spoke about the people in my community who deserve our respect and support. They are, of course, seniors who gave so much and ask for so little.

I spoke then, as I do now, about their one main request, to be treated with the dignity they deserve. I spoke about the many organizations, associations and senior complexes, like the Elliott under the leadership of David Hicks, who support our seniors.

The injustice that is experienced by the thousands of British pensioners living in Canada is another example that we must always be vigilant and watchful to protect those most vulnerable and to help those who help them.

This motion has my support and I urge all members to support it as well. By supporting this motion, members of Parliament will demonstrate the resolve of all Canadians to see this matter to a successful conclusion, thus ensuring that justice is done for these 130,000 people living in Canada.

The royal city says yes to this motion and so do I.

PensionsPrivate Members' Business

8:05 p.m.

NDP

Len Taylor NDP The Battlefords—Meadow Lake, SK

Madam Speaker, on a point of order, it does appear that all members wishing to speak on this motion tonight have risen and spoken. As the mover of the motion, I want to thank them very much for the dedication and concern they showed for British pensioners during their remarks tonight. I thank them very much for that.

I noticed that all members who spoke today from all the parties represented in the House were supportive of the motion, including the two government members.

Therefore I think it would be appropriate to ask if there was unanimous consent of the House to make this a votable motion and send it to committee so that there could be full House support for the government's position.

PensionsPrivate Members' Business

8:05 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)

Does the hon. member have the unanimous consent of the House?

PensionsPrivate Members' Business

8:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

PensionsPrivate Members' Business

8:05 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)

There is not unanimous consent.

There being no further members rising for debate and the motion not being designated a votable item, the time provided for the consideration of Private Members' Business has now expired and the order is dropped from the Order Paper.

It being 8.11 p.m, the House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 2 p.m., pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).

(The House adjourned at 8.11 p.m.)