House of Commons Hansard #137 of the 35th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was health.

Topics

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4 p.m.

The Speaker

The question is now on Motion No. 4.

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

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4 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

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4 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

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4 p.m.

The Speaker

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

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4 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

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4 p.m.

The Speaker

All those opposed will please say nay.

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4 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

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4 p.m.

The Speaker

In my opinion the yeas have it.

And more than five members having risen:

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4 p.m.

The Speaker

A recorded division on the motion stands deferred.

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4 p.m.

Bloc

Antoine Dubé Bloc Lévis, QC

Mr. Speaker, unless I am mistaken, Motion No. 5 was not read.

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4 p.m.

The Speaker

We cannot vote on Motion No. 5 before the deferred division on Motion No. 4 takes place.

We will now proceed to Group No. 3.

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4 p.m.

York Centre Ontario

Liberal

Art Eggleton Liberalfor Minister of Health

moved:

Motion No. 6

That Bill C-71, in Clause 18, be amended by replacing lines 18 to 20 on page 7 with the following: c ) a promotion by a tobacco grower or a manufacturer that is directed at tobacco growers, manufacturers, persons who distribute tobacco products or retailers but not, either directly or indirectly, at consumers.''

Motion No. 17

That Bill C-71, in Clause 24, be amended by replacing lines 30 and 31 on page 9 with the following:

"readership of not less than eighty-five per cent;"

Motion No. 33

That Bill C-71 be amended by adding, after line 23 on page 22, the following:

"Coming into Force

  1. Subsections 24(2) and (3) come into force one year after the day this Act is assented to."

Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

Bloc

Antoine Dubé Bloc Lévis, QC

moved:

Motion No. 7

That Bill C-71, in Clause 19, be amended by a ) replacing line 21 on page 7 with the following:

"19. (1) No person shall promote a tobacco" b ) adding after line 24 on page 7 the following:

"(2) Subsection (1) does not apply to a person who uses a tobacco product or a tobacco product-related brand element in a promotion that is used in the sponsorship of a person, entity, event, activity or permanent facility or used in the promotion of the sponsorship."

Motion No. 9

That Bill C-71, in Clause 21, be amended by replacing lines 1 to 3 on page 8 with the following:

"(3) This section does not apply to a ) a trade-mark that appeared on a tobacco product for sale in Canada on December 2, 1996; or b ) a tobacco product that is used in a promotion that is used in the sponsorship of a person, entity, event, activity or permanent facility or in the promotion of the sponsorship.''

Motion No. 12

That Bill C-71, in Clause 22, be amended by adding after line 41 on page 8 the following:

"(5) This section does not apply to a person who promotes a tobacco product by means of an advertisement described in subsection (1) where the person does so in a promotion that is used in the sponsorship of a person, entity, event, activity or permanent facility or in the promotion of the sponsorship."

Motion No. 13

That Bill C-71 be amended by deleting Clause 24.

Motion No. 15

That Bill C-71, in Clause 24, be amended by replacing lines 4 to 42 on page 9 with the following:

  1. (1) No one shall promote a sponsorship by means of a tobacco product-related brand element unless a ) the primary purpose of the sponsorship promotion is to promote an event, activity, person or entity; b ) the event, activity, person or entity is not primarily associated with young persons; c ) the promotional material does not depict a tobacco product or its package; d ) the tobacco product-related brand element does not account for more than 15 percent of the promotional material or is not larger than the name of the event, activity, person or entity; e ) the promotional material does not appear in any publication that has an adult readership of less than 75 percent or is not broadcast by a radio or television station that, during the broadcast, has an adult audience of less than 75 percent; f ) the promotional material is not displayed within an area that is less than 200 meters from any elementary or secondary school; g ) the sponsorship promotion does not use professional models under twenty-five years of age; and h ) the promotional material is not displayed outdoors for more than three months prior to the commencement of the event or activity or more than one month after the end of the event or activity.

(2) The definitions in this section apply in this Part.

"international event or activity" means an event or activity that is a ) primarily presented in Canada by

(i) an entity whose headquarters or principal place of business is situated outside Canada, or

(ii) a foreign government; b ) part of a series of events or activities the majority of which are presented outside Canada; c ) one in which

(i) at least half the artists, competitors or other participants are not residents of Canada; or

(ii) at least half the persons registered for the competition are not residents of Canada; or d ) recognized by the Canadian Tourism Commission as an international tourist attraction.

"promotional material" means any object, printed matter, publicity, broadcast, poster banner or merchandise that primarily promotes an event, activity, person or entity that is part of the sponsorship and excludes, for the purposes of paragraph (1)(d), where the sponsorship is promoted as part of an international event or activity, a ) posters and banners displayed at the site of the international event or activity; and b ) the clothing and equipment of the participants, artists or competitors in the international event or activity.''

Motion No. 25

That Bill C-71, in Clause 33, be amended by deleting lines 14 to 19 on page 12.

Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

March 4th, 1997 / 4 p.m.

Liberal

Roger Simmons Liberal Burin—St. George's, NL

moved:

Motion No. 34

That Bill C-71 be amended by adding, after line 23 on page 22, the following:

"Coming into Force

  1. Subsections 24(2) and (3) come into force on October 1, 1998 or on such earlier day the Governor in Council may fix by order."

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4:05 p.m.

The Speaker

On Motions Nos. 14, 16, 18 and 19, Mr. Robinson is not here to propose these motions and therefore they will be deleted.

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4:05 p.m.

Bloc

Antoine Dubé Bloc Lévis, QC

Madam Speaker, thus this is Group No. 3, that is, mainly the whole chapter on sponsorship, or clause 24. I remind you that, at second reading, the official opposition voted for the principle of the bill because we agree with 80 per cent of the bill and with all clauses aimed at reducing smoking, especially among young people, but also among all Canadians, although this is obviously more of a voluntary decision for adults.

Concerning sponsorship, though, there are important economic issues at stake for Quebec and for Canada also, since sponsorship accounts for some $60 million that are distributed by the tobacco companies for sporting and cultural events. Of those $60 million, some $30 million go to sporting and cultural events in Quebec. You will understand, therefore, that the Bloc Quebecois, which forms the official opposition and has Quebec's interests at heart, wants to preserve these funds that ensure the survival and even the development of cultural activities, and thus are good for the economy, especially in the tourism industry.

In terms of added value, events such as the Montreal Jazz festival, the Montreal Grand Prix and other international events are important because they attract many visitors to the Montreal area, as do events such as the summer festival in Quebec City, which also attracts many visitors. In fact, all events of this calibre attract a lot of visitors and that is why their economic impact is so great.

But there is also the issue of visibility. Events such as the Montreal Grand Prix, the Du Maurier tennis tournament or the golf open give sports fans an opportunity to see, on television, what goes on all over the world. It is a window on the world, an opportunity to promote extraordinary sporting and cultural events that give each region and each country the visibility they need.

Let us talk about the Montreal Grand Prix. The Grand Prix in Formula 1 racing comes in third place among sporting events, after the Olympic Games and the World Cup in soccer, in terms of coverage and in terms of viewership. It is the third most important event. There are no such races in the United States or anywhere else in North America. But there is one in Montreal.

We could lose all that because, even if the minister has accepted, through an amendment, to stagger the application of section 24 concerning certain restrictions on the sponsorship of sporting and cultural events, there is still section 31-and I see that the chairman of the health committee, who, like me, has studied this bill clause by clause, knows full well what I am talking about-which will prohibit retransmission as soon as this bill becomes law. So it will be this year, if the bill is adopted in the next few weeks as planned by the government and if the other House gives its consent. This means that the Montreal Grand Prix is threatened, and we see in the newspapers that China, which is badly in need of visibility, is very interested in taking over the Montreal Grand Prix and would be most happy to do so. You can certainly understand why we want to defend ourselves in these circumstances.

There is always the same argument that something similar happened with the French Grand Prix. But in France it is not the same situation because, in the context of the automotive industry, in connection with Formula 1 cars, several companies are represented. The same is true for England, Italy and Germany. There are enough sponsorships from racing car manufacturers that they can do without tobacco sponsorships.

But this is not the case in other countries. It is not the case in Australia. They wanted to ban it, but they were forced to adopt a legislative measure allowing an exception. So, there are a number of countries with the same situation, notably Japan, because it was not possible to attract automobile manufacturers, Formula 1 teams sponsored by tobacco companies, not just by companies we are familiar with but by foreign companies.

Imagine this strange situation: in order for a car sponsored by a tobacco company to be allowed on television, if clause 31 were allowed to stand, the brand on the car would have to be purposely blurred, somewhat like the procedure used when interviewing a criminal or an informer who wishes to remain anonymous. This is commonly seen on television, but in this case, the car is travelling over 200 kilometres an hour. You can imagine the skill required if ever the leading car were sponsored by a tobacco company. There are a number of things like that.

The official opposition presented many amendments to clause 24 so as to reduce the impact, so that the situation could continue. Most of the amendments consist of compromises. Most of the amendments we have presented here at report stage were suggested by people who benefit from these sponsorships, not by tobacco products, and not by companies.

I do not wish to come to the defence of tobacco companies. I do not smoke, but sports and cultural events are very important to the cultural and economic life of Quebec. That is what we are fighting for.

The main issue is this: Is there a connection between displaying a tobacco company brand in a place of entertainment or somewhere else and the increase in smoking among young people? I systematically asked this question, as the chairman of the health committee knows. I asked each witness whether he had a scientific study demonstrating a link. Each time, people replied that they did not, that they had a number of studies, but none on that specifically.

A very articulate representative of the Canadian Cancer Society, to whom I had directed the question, even answered me: "No, there is no study".

Finally, these people have the impression that sponsorship is a way of improving the image of tobacco companies, but nobody could show in a scientific way that it helps increase tobacco use. As an advocate of non-smoking, I am pursuing the goal of improving health. I will recall very briefly that I was a recreation professional when I was younger, before I became a member of Parliament. I might not look like it, but I used to take part in 10 kilometre runs. I realized soon enough that it did not agree with smoking. In another speech, I pointed out that Céline Dion surely does not smoke in order to protect her voice.

So, we should do promotion in a positive fashion. We should spend more money on programs to prevent smoking. The government is collecting $4.5 billion in taxes on the sale of tobacco products. It should take some of that money to try to reach its goals. Instead of announcing a piece of legislation that has yet to be adopted, it should have launched a program to encourage people to stop smoking by showing them the benefits of quitting, how pleasant it is to be in shape, to take deep breaths, to go play outside, as Kino-Québec used to say, to play sports, and by demonstrating, if necessary with the help of athletes or famous singers, how great it is to be in good health and a non-smoker. This would have a very positive impact on our young people.

I know that some other colleagues from the Bloc Quebecois will speak later on. My hon. colleague for Mégantic-Compton-Stanstead will probably rise and speak with enthusiasm as he puts forward other arguments that will convince you, Madam Speaker, or the chairman of the health committee, to postpone the implementation of this provision of Bill C-71.

Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Roger Simmons Liberal Burin—St. George's, NL

Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure to take part in the debate. As the chair of the health committee that dealt with Bill C-71 I and my colleagues from Lévis, Drummond and others have had a fair amount of exposure to the bill. We have had a good opportuntiy to say what we want about it. My words today will be few and quite pointed. They will be largely related to the amendment which stands in my name in the group before us.

In general terms I believe very strongly in the provisions of Bill C-71. I believe very strongly in its objectives. The bill goes a long way to seeing that its objectives are met, namely the objective to reduce tobacco consumption particularly by young people.

Our hearings were extensive. I am proud to say on behalf of the committee that we were able to hear all who wanted to be heard over three or four days. The hearings last fall were televised which gave a large body of people, apart from those in the hearing room, an opportunity to participate, to see how the matter was dealt with and to hear the arguments on both sides of the issue. The overall process was served very well. We were able to hear in committee the real concerns that people had with the bill.

At the end of the three or four days of hearings I was rather impressed by the case that had been made by the representatives of sponsored events, those events which have heretofore been sponsored by the tobacco companies. I thought their argument made a fair amount of sense and ought to be examined.

As a result, once the bill had passed clause by clause in committee I as a member of the committee said to my colleagues that we ought to look at some transition period. Instead of bringing in the provision which would limit sponsorship when the bill came into effect, I felt we could allow some lead time for a couple of reasons.

It would give those people involved in sponsored events time to adjust to the new reality. I was cognizant that many events had been planned for this summer and even for next summer. We needed to give those people some lead time to adjust to the new reality.

Equally important was to remove from the tobacco companies a potential weapon, namely the possibility that the tobacco companies would rush out on the excuse of this legislation and cancel forthwith sponsorship funds they had already subscribed to events. I wanted to remove from the tobacco companies that particular excuse. I wanted to take that weapon away from them. The lead time proposed in my amendment has the effect of doing that. If the tobacco companies want in the next year or so to continue

sponsorship, nothing legislatively prevents those companies from doing so.

It would give the organizations running the events time to look around for alternate funding without the threat of having their events collapse because of the immediate loss of the funding upon which they have come to depend over the years.

With these thoughts in mind I made a suggestion to the committee. The committee put forth a resolution to the House a day or so after the bill was reported. It is in that spirit my amendment before the House has been made.

It is not intended to water down or detract from the measures in the bill. My own view on sponsorship was different from what is in the bill. I felt we should have wiped out sponsorship altogether from day one. That was my view. I felt that we ought to have provided alternate funding for a period of three, four or five years. That was my position on that issue.

That view did not prevail. What we have in the bill, I understand for constitutional and other reasons, is a limited sponsorship. That is my second position. I would have preferred to have no sponsorship by the tobacco companies at all. A good argument can be made for that, but that is yesterday's battle so I will not get into it.

The amendment I have proposed will give some assistance to the groups whose concerns we heard in committee. The transition period will give them the extra time they need to find other sponsors. However they also need the certainty of knowing the precise date when the restrictions on sponsorship promotion will come into effect. We do not know exactly when the bill will receive royal assent. It is fair to assume it may well be some time this spring. Events are already en train for this summer. I thought we ought to give them this summer and next to make the adjustments.

With that in mind, and the importance of having a definite date, my motion indicates that we would have the sponsorship provisions in the bill take effect as of October of the following year. This would be a welcome measure for those who are looking for as much time as possible to make the adjustments.

As I have said before, I do not think it in any way detracts from the health principles of the bill. It does not in any way dilute the principles of the measures in the bill.

In closing, let us remind ourselves that this is first and foremost a health bill. Anything it does ought to have as its mandate the improvement of the health of Canadians. The bill goes a long way in that direction.

I hope my amendment is not seen as a diversion but rather as a practical way of accommodating what is a problem created by the bill but not intended. The people who sponsor these events are not the culprits. If we as legislators can avoid making them victims, we ought to do so. The spirit behind the amendment is to give them that little extra time.

Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

4:25 p.m.

Bloc

Maurice Bernier Bloc Mégantic—Compton—Stanstead, QC

Madam Speaker, I am happy to have the opportunity to take part for the second time in the debate and more specifically to speak about sponsorship.

About ten days ago, during my last speech on Bill C-71, I concluded by saying that we were having a false debate. The arguments put forth by the Liberal members, particularly the Minister of Health, prove more clearly every day that we are having a false debate.

I listened very carefully to the hon. member for Burin-St. George's, who is the chairman of the committee on health, and his statements prove once again that I am right. He told the House that he himself moved an amendment allowing the Minister of Health and the Liberal members to rise in this House and declare one after the other that they had not abolished sponsorship of sports and cultural events by tobacco companies.

How can they say that? By deferring the decision by one year. In the original bill, sponsorship of major sports and cultural events by tobacco companies would have been prohibited as of December 1997. The very generous-I would even say munificent-amendment moved by the hon. member for Burin-St. George's defers the decision by one year.

The Liberals are so keen on stifling the economy of Quebec, particularly that of Montreal and of other cities such as Trois-Rivières and Quebec City that have great sporting and cultural events, they so like to hamper what is working well, to stifle the promotion of important events, that they decided to have more fun.

Six months was not enough. They would have had six months to enjoy watching important events simply disappear because of a lack of funds, but six months was not enough for them. Therefore, they decided to have one more year of fun. They gave themselves until December 1998 to have their fun so they could say to the people of Quebec: "You see what a good government we are. We want to stifle your economy, and we will take all the time needed to do so". That is the result of the process, and that is why I am saying that this is a false debate.

Moreover, the health minister, in response to questions in and outside the House yesterday, repeated that his bill had only one objective: to improve the health of Canadians and Quebecers alike, particularly that of young people. It was its sole objective. He said that his bill had nothing to do with sport or culture, and that is why he could afford to ban tobacco advertising at these events.

Along the same lines, the Minister of Health says that he understands that there may be problems for the organizers of cultural or sports events, but all they will need to do is to approach the banks instead. Sure, all the organizers of cultural or sports events will need to do is to approach the banks, but they will not be the only ones; dozens of restaurant and hotel owners will also have to approach the banks, but to file bankruptcy. They will be out of business, just as in the example given by my colleague from Trois-Rivières.

I am sure he will quote this example again this afternoon. In the Trois-Rivières area, during the Grand Prix, all motels and hotels display no-vacancy signs as all available rooms within about 50 kilometres are booked. As a result of the decision being made by the Liberal government concerning sponsorships, this will no longer be the case.

The Bloc Quebecois will object within the limits allowed by parliamentary procedure to prevent this bill from coming into effect. And if, unfortunately, it did come into effect, we will see to it that people, especially in Quebec-since we will be the hardest hit by this decision-know what is going on, who is responsible for this disastrous Bill C-71. We are going to blow the whistle and we will keep on blowing it.

I am convinced that, when an election is called in a few weeks, or a few months, at most, Quebecers who, in 1993, gave their support to the Bloc Quebecois in an overwhelming majority will think of its general record when they are faced with the decision. They will wonder if it has been worth it to have voted for the Bloc in 1993.

When they realize the role the Bloc Quebecois assumed in this House, and now with Bill C-71, Quebecers will think: "Thanks to the Bloc, some men and women stood up for the interests of Quebec". In fact, not one member opposite, among the Liberals, discussed that matter, on the contrary. The Secretary of State for the Federal Office of Regional Development referred to it a few times, but he was told very quickly that if he wanted to keep his job, he had better to keep his mouth shut.

Fortunately, the Bloc Quebecois was there to fight for Quebec's interests. Otherwise, we would never have known this bill's disastrous consequences for the economy of Montreal, Trois-Rivières, Quebec City and other towns in Quebec.

I will conclude by saying that we are indeed in a false debate. If the Minister of Health cares so much about the health of Quebecers, about the health of Canadians, he should speak up in Cabinet, plead with the Minister of Finance who has repeatedly cut unemployment insurance.

I contend that poverty does a lot more damage than tobacco, not only among children, but also among the general population. Everybody agrees that smoking is bad for your health, but this debate should be at the provincial level, especially in Quebec. We will have this debate. We will decide on the scope of the legislation we pass to protect our children, our women and our men. We do not need the federal government to tell us what to do in this regard.

What we want to avoid most of all is a decision which threatens thousands of jobs in Quebec, and that is something that Quebec men and women will remember during the next election.

Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to speak to the motions in Group No. 3.

The previous speaker just spent some time talking about the impact of tobacco advertising on Quebec and that it is a good thing that the Bloc is here. Canadians know it is not a good thing that the Bloc is here and I think Quebecers know it as well.

In the last reported period the cost of smoking in Quebec totalled $4.1 billion. That puts in context what the alternative is. Members of the Bloc are now saying that this is going to cost jobs at events such as car races, and cultural events are going to disappear and all the economic benefit will be lost.

What does that say about the value of the lives of Canadians to members of the Bloc Quebecois? I am not going to dwell on that. I think members of the Bloc have made their position clear. They hold the value of commerce much higher than the value of the citizens of our country.

I want to speak very briefly about the issue of sponsorship. Earlier in the debate I raised the fact that the representatives of tobacco companies did not choose to appear before the Standing Committee on Health to represent their interests. In fact, they sent cultural and sporting groups and organizations whose events they sponsor.

Although the representatives of tobacco companies did not appear before the committee, they were quite active before the hearings of the Standing Committee on Health took place. They made representations by sending letters to citizens, members of Parliament. They had advertisements in newspapers and made television appearances. They did not come before the House of Commons committee, face to face, to be questioned and to provide facts. They were telling it their way, on their terms, and in a way which did not provide all the facts.

I want to refer to one of the ads from a newspaper. They claim that the restrictions under Bill C-71 make the sponsorship of any event commercially untenable.

The tobacco companies continue to use the words "ban advertising and promotion". The fact is that tobacco companies will not be banned from advertising and promoting events. Some would argue that advertising should be banned, as I am told it will be in the United States, a total ban. In Canada there will be restrictions, not a ban. It means that the tobacco companies will still be able to advertise fully in magazines, direct mail solicitation for support and sponsorship of their events. They will still be able to occupy 10 per cent of a poster size even where they can be seen by children.

However, there will be some restrictions. No longer will an entire venue be totally coloured and plastered with the name of a cigarette brand. The exclusive sponsor of an event will still be able to be identified. They will continue to have that right.

I makes me wonder exactly where these events are going to go. The tobacco companies want to advertise. Obviously they are advertising because they feel there is some benefit to it. In letters we have received, some have said they do not know anyone who has gone to a tennis match, came out and said: "I want to start smoking because I was at that tennis match".

It is not that easy. The promotion of any product involves a multiplicity of approaches. It involves colours, sounds and different venues, different medias.

We have some examples. In 1992 the French government banned tobacco sponsorship and promotion. Throughout the debate, just as we are having here, the opposition to the government said that events, such as the Grand Prix, would be gone as a result of the ban. The Grand Prix circuit would withdraw. In fact, the organizers went so far as to announce that the French Grand Prix would be pulled from the 1993 circuit if the legislation went through.

What are the facts? The legislation did go through, the 1993 French Grand Prix did go ahead as scheduled as did the 1994, 1995 and 1996 Grand Prix. That is just one example. There are many other examples of where threats, directly or indirectly, by the tobacco companies are simply a bunch of smoke. They have absolutely no relevance to what really will happen. In fact, some have characterized it as a cliché of Chicken Little, "the sky is falling". Everything is going to fall apart.

Most members of Parliament have received letters from the Alliance for Sponsorship Freedom. It represents itself as an alliance of concerned organizations and sponsors of arts, sports, fashion and entertainment events in Canada. Let us look at these poor organizations who, on behalf of the tobacco companies, are saying: "The sky is falling and our events are going to be cancelled if you do this".

Here is just an indication of what are the real facts with respect to how much somebody gets through tobacco sponsorship. People are talking about Just for Laughs, which is a Quebec based cultural event, and about how terrible it is going to be for Canadians because Just for Laughs will be gone. The fact is that Just for Laughs only receives 10 per cent of its budget from tobacco money. Are the Bloc Quebecois going to convince Canadians that Just for Laughs is going to disappear because it loses 10 per cent of its sponsorship funding? Nonsense.

Members of the Neptune Theatre in Halifax also speak on behalf of this alliance. How much does the Neptune Theatre receive? This is for the people who said it was awful about tobacco sponsorship being restricted. The Neptune Theatre only receives one-half of 1 per cent of its revenue from tobacco money. Is the Neptune Theatre going to go out of business because it loses one-half of 1 per cent of its revenue? Nonsense.

Representations of Players Grand Prix de Canada also speak on behalf of the the Alliance for Sponsorship Freedom. The Grand Prix de Canada receives only one-fifth of its revenues from tobacco money. Again I must ask the question: Is the Grand Prix de Canada going to disappear simply because of the loss of one-fifth of its revenues from tobacco money?

Finally, a 1995 Canadian Conference of the Arts study of 78 arts groups across Canada found that 60 per cent of the surveyed groups received less than 1 per cent of their revenues from tobacco money. In fact, 86 per cent received less than 5 per cent of the revenues from tobacco.

It is very clear from the examples I have given that the tobacco companies have come across a brilliant, superior strategy to deal with a fatal situation in their business. They are going out of business and we know that. We cannot find a place to smoke legally any more in municipal and public buildings in Canada. The Canadian people are making it very clear that the importance is not the commercial benefit of businesses like the tobacco companies. It is the health and welfare of Canadians. It is what the government has brought forward in Bill C-71. It is what the Minister of Health, day after day, has been fighting for in this place. Notwithstanding the Bloc Quebecois and others saying how terrible it is, it is the right thing to do.

As legislators, we are elected to do the right thing and the health of Canadians must come before the profits of the tobacco companies.

I just want to repeat the impact of tobacco on Canada: some $3.5 billion in direct health care costs and about $15 billion in comprehensive costs, whether it be social program costs, productivity costs, et cetera, and 40,000 lives lost every year.

We know from research statistics that if a person does not start smoking by the age of 19, it is very likely that person will not become a smoker. It is also clear to the tobacco companies that that is the case. It is clear from their strategies that their target audience is young people. This Minister of Health has been defending Bill C-71 on behalf of the youth of Canada. I am proud to support it and

I know this House will support the excellent legislation and the health of Canadians as represented in Bill C-71.

Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

Bloc

Suzanne Tremblay Bloc Rimouski—Témiscouata, QC

Madam Speaker, I am very pleased to be able to speak in this debate, and I will be making use of several documents which I feel to be of great importance.

I have here a letter signed by the Prime Minister himself, Jean Chrétien, dating from 1995, which says the following:

I am very pleased to have this opportunity to extend a welcome to all of you attending this concert presented by Du Maurier Arts.

This event, part of a prestigious six-concert series in six Canadian cities, is evidence of a long and faithful tradition of promoting and encouraging our Canadian artists. Since its inception, Du Maurier Arts Ltd. has been a major supporter of the arts, and has provided many outstanding talents with the opportunity to develop their careers and to bring honour to our country.

I congratulate this organization for its outstanding contribution to the expansion of the arts, and I hope that each and every one of you will have a most entertaining evening.

So there you have six cultural events in six major cities that will no longer be able to take place, thanks to Bill C-71.

This morning we also received a letter from the Montreal Symphony Orchestra, telling us that they had been involved in the Du Maurier matinees for 25 years, and now these matinee performances are in danger of going up in smoke-no pun intended-because the government has decided to pass a bill, some of the clauses of which are anything but sensible.

For the benefit of those of our hon. colleagues who are with us today, I would repeat that the Bloc Quebecois supports at least 85 or 90 per cent of this bill, but that we have been given responses this afternoon which have come very close to verging on the opposite of truthfulness.

Clause 31 states, and I quote:

31.(1) No person shall, on behalf of another person, with or without consideration, publish, broadcast or otherwise disseminate any promotion that is prohibited by this Part.

(3) No person in Canada shall, by means of a publication that is published outside Canada or a broadcast that originates outside Canada or any communication other than a publication or broadcast that originates outside Canada,-

This is clear as mud, and the Supreme Court is going to have fun trying to interpret all this.

-promote any product the promotion of which is regulated under this Part, or disseminate promotional material that contains a tobacco product-related brand element in a way that is contrary to this Part.

At noon, they explained to us on television what all this meant. It means that the Australian Grand Prix on Sunday might not be televised, although the hon. member opposite insisted that anything goes and that nothing is prohibited in this bill; although the minister said during question period this afternoon that he had nothing against promotions and sponsorship and that it was still allowed; and although they told us the present situation might continue until October 1998.

They would have us believe that it will go on until 1998, just enough time to have an election in between. People are not easily fooled. They realize that the Bloc Quebecois, while it disagrees with this bill, supports a healthy life style. No one would be against that. We are all for health, but we do not think this is the way to keep people healthy.

When you do not give people the jobs they need, when you cut their unemployment insurance and when all they have left is welfare, you should at least have the decency to let them have a smoke with their feet up on the wood stove. Taking away their right to smoke would be the last straw.

The government is about to regulate people's private lives, telling them what they can do, who they can talk to and what they can watch. This is absurd.

There is also the Coalition québécoise pour le contrôle du tabac which issues press releases that are entirely misleading and refers to us as a party that caves in to pressure groups. As if they were not a pressure group! What is this coalition? A pressure group, pure and simple. It is just applying pressure in the opposite direction. That is the only difference.

We represent the interests of Quebec. We promised Quebecers that we would go the limit to defend the interests of Quebec and that is what we are doing now. We want to tell this government, which is insensitive and is even deaf to the demands of its own supporters, we say to this government that it makes no sense at all to paint yourself into a corner the way it has done. How they can back out? By saying that they will add an extra year or a fourth or a fifth? That does not change anything. It just postpones dealing with the problem.

We want this government to deal with the problem right away and to make the right decisions. I spent 35 years of my life teaching young children, and I can tell you that preventing young people from watching the Grand Prix and their idol Jacques Villeneuve is not going to deal with the problem of smoking in Quebec.

Just let them try to make us believe that one. Earlier, I was listening to a young driver, who was totally shattered this afternoon to hear the minister lay the guilt on him for the death of 40,000 people, because he races cars, and tobacco companies sponsor car races.

He was totally shattered at the attempt to link these two things. Are we now going to be prevented from smoking in our own cars, because it could be dangerous and could cause accidents? Smoking has already been prohibited in aircraft, because the people in front were sending their smoke to the back or the other way around, according to how the air circulated.

We are on the point of being regulated everywhere, and that does not make a lot of sense. What does the coalition have to say?

The Bloc is acting as if the question of tobacco sponsorship concerned only economic interests and had nothing to do with tobacco and its effects on health, that is, the 12,000 deaths annually in Quebec. Do we have to again repeat what we have said so many times? This bill is first and foremost a matter of public health.

In 80 per cent of the cases, we agree that it pertains to public health.

I met Dr. Vanasse in my riding, who is in charge of public health in the region. Even though he came to my riding office to lobby for my support of the bill, he said that it avoided the heart of the issue by not controlling the product. So, the government is not dealing with the essential, but with the secondary and is preventing people from having access to cultural and sporting events.

Do you know what is important for a people? It is to develop culturally, and sports are an integral part of the cultural life of a people. I would like to thank the Liberal Party officially. I would like it to be noted in Hansard that I am thanking the Liberal Party, because what happened in Montreal at noon is totally amazing.

The city shut down between 11.30 a.m. and 11.45 a.m., taxi drivers and everything. Because of a bill that has a number of stupid clauses, you enabled us to make a few political points. The next time we will win even more ridings in Quebec, and it will be one more reason to leave this country, which wants to prevent us from fulfilling ourselves.

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4:55 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Rocheleau Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

It is with great pleasure that I rise again to speak to Bill C-71, which deals with tobacco in general, as well as its consumption, promotion, labelling, sale, and manufacture.

To start with, I would like to salute two of my colleagues who have done a tremendous amount of work on this issue, namely my colleague from Drummond and my colleague from Lévis, who often had to face difficult circumstances due to the underhanded way the government has dealt with this issue of utmost importance for thousands and thousands of Quebecers and Canadians. It tried to work behind closed doors, at the end of a session and at night, issuing position papers and press releases. It made sure the official opposition had to work under the most difficult conditions. It refused to work in committee, only to yield to pressure from the opposition. Therefore, I want to pay tribute to both my colleagues because without them, this debate would probably not have taken place.

I would also like to pay tribute to people who today rose to the occasion in Montreal of course, but also in Trois-Rivières, in my riding, in my home town. Restaurant owners, shopkeepers, taxi drivers, hotel managers and employees marched in the streets to show their unmitigated displeasure and disagreement with this particular provision of the bill and not with the spirit of the bill itself. These are significant nuances that the government in its carelessness seems unable to grasp.

As the leader of the Bloc Quebecois and leader of the opposition said during question period, we agree with 80 per cent of this bill. We, however, totally disagree with one of its major aspects, which is the focus of the present debate, and that is the advertising, the sponsorships. That is why I rose today. We can see how the government is acting in bad faith. The more the government speaks on this issue, the more we can see its bad faith; it wants to convince the public and this House that eliminating sponsorships, billboards and tobacco company logos will have a positive impact on people's health. This would require a great leap of logic that is outrageous.

The government is refusing to budge, even though it is a matter of economic development as thousands of jobs, including some 100 in Trois-Rivières, 3,000 in Montreal and 5,000 in Canada, are at stake. There are also some international repercussions. People in 141 countries can watch the Trois-Rivières Grand Prix on television. I discovered that this morning. This is no small feat! The Grand Prix is not a spontaneous event. If it can be held at all this year, it will be for the 28th year, thanks to the work and energy of the many volunteers involved.

My colleague, the member for Lévis, mentioned earlier that the Montreal Grand Prix was the third sporting event in importance after the Olympics and the World Cup in soccer. We are talking about huge events here. These are significant events which create an interest, they put Montreal on the map, they attract tourists and they make them want to come back.

The government is not being transparent, it is acting with shortsightedness and incompetence and in bad faith; it is trying to ram this bill through the House by muzzling the opposition as much as possible. We know that, at first reading, only one representative of the Bloc Quebecois, my colleague from Lévis, was able to speak. At second reading, the government also acted very quickly. It announced that closure would be imposed today

and that third reading would take place Thursday, so as to restrict debate as much as possible.

I would like to draw your attention to this government's attitude, which may be interpreted in various ways. Earlier the chairman of the health committee moved Motion No. 34 with great pride, saying-as the Prime Minister repeated later-that the bill would not come into effect until October 1, 1998. They were very proud of that announcement.

But, if this product is lethal, as I heard on the radio at home this morning, how can they brag about delaying the implementation of this bill as much as possible? Either this is an extremely harmful product or we are able to deal with it. However, if it is extremely harmful, as the bill is suggesting, let us try to act as soon as possible, and certainly not brag about it. Let us not amend this bill only to implement it on October 1.

Therefore, we see that the government is inconsistent and does not care about the public interest, about the best interests of the people. Either it is urgent or it is not. If it is urgent, let us act. If the bill is not so urgent, if it is not so serious, it should never be enforced. The government's current position is remarkably inconsistent, and this is something I wanted to underline.

In this respect, we must also point to the very deplorable behaviour of someone from La Mauricie who, given his influence, his power, his origins, is quite aware of what is going on and of the terrible, catastrophic impact this bill will have on the Quebec economy. You will have recognized the Prime Minister and member for Saint-Maurice, whose behaviour and carelessness I condemn. He does not listen and springs to the defence of this bill.

Reference was made earlier to the great public rallies in Montreal and Trois-Rivières, where people have taken to the streets today. Opposition to the bill is mounting. I would be very pleased to read a release I just received at 3.23 p.m., stating the position of the Montreal Exchange on this issue, not that of the Bloc Quebecois.

Very briefly, it reads: "The Montreal Exchange supports the various Montreal communities that are protesting the adoption of Bill C-71. According to its President and Chief Executive Officer, Gérald A. Lacoste, the loss of international events, due to the passing of the law as presented, would be disastrous for Montreal. The Montreal Exchange has frequently used these large-scale events, such as the Canadian Grand Prix and the Du Maurier Open, to promote the dynamism of Montreal and its marketplace among the international financial community".

This is a fine illustration of the consensus developing in a wide segment of the population, which is a stakeholder for one part and an observer for the other, and which realizes that this government simply lost its bearings and, in this case, can appropriately and colloquially be said to have lost it.

Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Liberal

Rose-Marie Ur Liberal Lambton—Middlesex, ON

Madam Speaker, I welcome the opportunity to speak to Bill C-71 respecting the tobacco act.

If enacted one of the amendments would oblige the Minister of Health to lay before the House of Commons any proposed regulations under sections 7, 14, 17, 33 or 42 of the act. At that time an appropriate committee would be struck to conduct inquiries or public hearings with respect to the proposed regulation and report its findings to the House.

At the end of the 30 sitting days following the day on which the proposed regulation was laid before the House, the governor in council could make a regulation under any of the aforementioned sections only if the House of Commons has not concurred in any report from a committee respecting the proposed regulation, in which case the regulation may be made in the form laid, or the House of Commons has concurred in a report from a committee approving the proposed regulation or an amended version of it, in which case the governor in council may only make the regulation in the form concurred in.

As members will know, regulations are subordinate laws made pursuant to the authority of statutory provisions called enabling powers. The authority to make regulations is usually delegated to the governor in council, cabinet, but it may also be delegated to one or more individuals or to an independent agency. Ideally these powers are used to make the detailed rules that support the statutory provisions.

While there are a few particular cases in which parliamentary review of regulations before they are made is provided for, this process is a relatively rare exception to the general rule. In general the normal legislative process gives Parliament the role of setting out the principles of law in detailed provisions appropriate for inclusion in the statute and determining the scope and nature of the enabling power which authorizes an elaboration of these provisions by even more detailed supporting rules.

The making of this subordinate law is then left to government ideally in consultation with the primary stakeholders and with some input from the general public. What then are the exceptions to the general regulation making process?

The best example is section 116(2) of the Criminal Code which has required since 1992 that all regulations made pursuant to enabling power under part III of the code, the gun control laws, be

laid before Parliament for a review by committee prior to their enactment. A requirement that all regulations made pursuant to this enabling power undergo such a review is a precondition to exercise of the power to make the subordinate laws. Thus we see in section 118 of the Firearms Act a procedure for parliamentary review of proposed regulations before they are made.

Opportunity should be given to the House of Commons to scrutinize and amend, if deemed necessary, any regulations proposed by the minister under the said section.

While I acknowledge the general necessity and appropriateness of executive regulation making in the great majority of cases, I would argue that there are very good reasons regulation making powers in Bill C-71 must be subject to full democratic accountability which is only possible through Parliament.

We must first examine the context in which Bill C-71 was drafted. Essentially the bill represents a response by the Minister of Health to the last year's decision of the Supreme Court of Canada in RJR-MacDonald versus the Attorney General of Canada.

Members will recall that in the September 21, 1995 decision a majority of the court ruled the government had failed to demonstrate that the restraints in the Tobacco Products Control Act regarding advertising, promotion and labelling were reasonable, justified restrictions on the freedom of expression and consequently struck down most of the provisions of the act.

In its ruling the Supreme Court has also been helpful through its suggestions of a number of options which the federal government might use in future legislation. In particular, the court mentioned such options as a partial ban on advertising which would allow information and brand preference advertising, a ban on lifestyle advertising, measures to prohibit advertising aimed at children and adolescence, and health labelling requirements with the source of the labelling.

All these options have been incorporated in Bill C-71. Bill C-71 represents a conscientious attempt to respond to the guidance offered by the Supreme Court of Canada. At the same time we must remember that tobacco continues to be a legal product. The producers and retailers of this legal product continue to enjoy the rights and freedoms afforded to them by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Should we not then take advantage of every opportunity available to us as parliamentarians to ensure that any regulations proposed under the bill are scrutinized in detail and in public by a committee which would presumably invite all stakeholders to state their case pro or con on any proposed regulations? I certainly think so.

A public process would go a long way toward legitimizing any proposed regulations precisely because it would allow stakeholders the opportunity to propose in public improvements to the regulations. This public scrutiny of proposed regulations could very well lessen the possibility of court challenges against legislation.

Let us not forget the Tobacco Products Control Act was challenged in court almost as soon as it was proclaimed into law in 1988, taking another seven years before the case finally ended up in the Supreme Court of Canada. Do we really want a repeat of this process, especially when we consider that a number of tobacco companies have already been making threatening noises about further court action against the proposed legislation?

It seems to me we have a golden opportunity to correct flaws which existed not only in the substance of the previous legislation-and here I am referring to both the Tobacco Products Control Act and the Tobacco Sales to Young Persons Act-but in the process as well.

No member of the House would welcome more court challenges to Canada's tobacco legislation. We want it to work. By inviting all stakeholders to participate in the regulation making process, I am convinced we will have created a forum whereby regulations will be made through negotiation rather than intimidation.

I will now say a few words about the actual scope of the enabling power of Bill C-71. In so doing I will argue that taken together they expand regulation making powers far beyond what may be believed as their legitimate scope and must therefore be subject to full democratic accountability, which is possible in Parliament.

The five sections I have mentioned provide for the enabling power to make regulations in the first five parts of the bill which deal with tobacco product standards: access to tobacco products, labelling, promotion and enforcement. Each section begins with the phrase "the governor in council may make regulations", followed by a number of relatively detailed subsections that enumerate the specific areas in which regulations can be made. So far so good.

Each of these subsections is detailed enough to satisfy the principle that regulations should only be made in areas that have been sufficiently defined. However-and here is where alarm bells go off in the minds of all members of the House-each of these sections concludes with the subsection "the governor in council may make regulations generally for carrying out the purposes of this part".

In and of itself this catch-all phrase represents sufficient reason to demand that all regulations proposed under the bill be brought under the scrutiny of the parliamentary committee. When we consider that the purpose of the first five parts of Bill C-71 is to introduce a number of restrictions in areas of product content, access, labelling, promotion and enforcement, surely all types of regulations to be made in these invasive periods should be spelled out clearly in enabling power. Unfortunately they are not and the reason is simply that each of these sections contains a subsection which gives the governor in council a virtual carte blanche to propose any regulation at all.

How does one define the phrase "generally for carrying out the purpose of this part"? No one can because the options are practically endless. If few people today seriously dispute the legitimacy of executive law making, concerns linger over the extent of these law making powers in the manner of their exercise. The perception is that the regulation making process is not fully compatible with the values of democratic and open government. Whereas statutes are enacted by elected representatives in a public forum, regulations will be characterized as the handiwork of appointed officials who remain unaccountable to Parliament or to the public.

I point out this final observation to my colleagues. Since regulations have the force of law, the process by which they are made must be one that maximizes opportunities for the citizens to participate in their making. Since the legislation which preceded Bill C-71 has been struck down by the Supreme Court of Canada as a transgression against the freedom of expression, the least we can do as legislators is to ensure that reasonable constraints be put in place to check any potential abuse within the regulation making process of the bill.

Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

Bloc

René Laurin Bloc Joliette, QC

Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving me the floor, even though I will not have enough time to finish my 10-minute speech. Still, I want to mention certain principles and parameters on which I will elaborate on Thursday, when we resume this debate.

I remind this House and all our viewers that the Bloc Quebecois is not opposed to health and is not trying to fight a bill which, on the surface, seeks to protect people's health. As we said, we all want to do the right thing. We voted in favour of this bill at first and second reading, but we can no longer support it at report stage, because the government is trying to force solutions on us that do not address the real problems.

What is the problem? The problem is that some people smoke too much and become susceptible to problems such as heart attacks, lung cancer, asthma, etc. This is the problem. The government wants to reduce tobacco use and, to that end, it has decided to eliminate sponsorships. This is like telling someone who eats too much that we will cut his fingers off. Instead of teaching the person not to consume the product that is harmful to his health, we cut that person's fingers off. We are opposed to the solution that the government wants to apply. We have to look at the link between the remedy being proposed and the objective pursued.

I feel the government is trying to administer medication whose side effects have once again not been properly evaluated. It is a good thing to look for measures to restrict and reduce tobacco use, but there are various ways of achieving this. The best one is education.

Unfortunately, I must stop now. I will have good examples to provide on Thursday. I believe I will have at least nine minutes left. Thank you for allowing me to begin my speech.

Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)

It being 5.15 p.m., pursuant to order made earlier this day, it is my duty to interrupt the proceedings and put forthwith all questions necessary to dispose of report stage of the bill now before the House.

The question is on Motion No. 6. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

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5:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.