House of Commons Hansard #56 of the 36th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was quebeckers.

Topics

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

NDP

Gordon Earle NDP Halifax West, NS

Madam Speaker, I pleased to rise this afternoon to add my voice to the debate on this motion.

I thank you for allowing me to speak on a subject so important for everyone as self-determination.

Surely the issue of people determining their own future is one of importance for all Canadians and one I strongly support in principle. It is the particular application of this principle that we must now take time to explore.

When a member of a family decides on a plan of action that will have significant impact on other members of the family, it is of course essential that such impact be weighed carefully. I appreciate the opportunity given us here today to develop that exploration.

Having had the opportunity to explore issues affecting aboriginal peoples, I am particularly concerned about this motion in general and the notion of consensus in particular.

What about the aboriginal peoples of Quebec? Much of northern Quebec is the traditional land of the Cree and Inuit. Roughly 15,000 square kilometres of the province's north are exclusively dedicated to aboriginal peoples. Quebec's aboriginal peoples include Inuit, Cree, Micmac, Malecites, Algonquin, Huron, Montagnais, Abenakis, Attikameks, Naskapis and Mohawk people.

These people need to know what plans the hon. member and his party have in store for the traditional peoples of these lands. The wording of the motion is very general and ambiguous. What plans are there for negotiations and discussions with these peoples before and during this “decision of their own future?”

The Quebec boundaries extension act of 1912 stated that the province would recognize the rights of Indians to the same extent as the Government of Canada had recognized such rights. It also provided that the trusteeship of Indians in the territory and management of lands reserved for their use would remain within the Government of Canada. Does the Bloc still plan on upholding the principles outlined here or is it planning to try to deny the rights of aboriginal peoples in northern Quebec?

What about the position taken by the Cree people in Quebec? Their position during the last referendum was that they had the right to maintain their territory in Canada. This cuts to the heart of one of the difficulties with this motion. While it supports the right of self-determination for Quebeckers, surely the same must be true for aboriginal peoples within Quebec.

To support self-determination for Quebec in general but then to deny that same provision for the aboriginal peoples living within the boundaries of Quebec is not only contradictory but sets back the tone of relations with aboriginal peoples to a time to which surely none of the members in this House would wish to return.

The motion refers to the ambiguous concept of consensus.

How does the hon. member reconcile this with the notion of self-government? The Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples stated:

The right of self-determination is vested in all aboriginal peoples of Canada including First Nations, Inuit and Metis. It is founded on emerging norms of international laws and basic principles of public morality. Self-determination entitles aboriginal peoples to negotiate the terms of their relationship with Canada and to establish governmental structures that they consider appropriate for their needs.

How does this notion take into account self-determination for aboriginals?

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)

It being 5:15 p.m., it is my duty to interrupt the proceedings and put forthwith every question necessary to dispose of the business of supply.

Is the House ready for the question?

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Question.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)

The question is on the amendment. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the amendment?

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)

All those in favour of the amendment will please say yea.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)

All those opposed will please say nay.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)

Call in the members.

(The House divided on the amendment, which was negatived on the following division:)

Division No. 70Government Orders

5:45 p.m.

The Speaker

I declare the amendment lost.

The next question is on the main motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Division No. 70Government Orders

5:50 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Division No. 70Government Orders

5:50 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

Division No. 70Government Orders

5:50 p.m.

The Speaker

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

Division No. 70Government Orders

5:50 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Division No. 70Government Orders

5:50 p.m.

The Speaker

All those opposed will please say nay.

Division No. 70Government Orders

5:50 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

Division No. 70Government Orders

5:50 p.m.

The Speaker

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

(The House divided on the motion, which was negatived on the following division:)

Division No. 71Government Orders

5:55 p.m.

The Speaker

I declare the motion lost.

Division No. 71Government Orders

6 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Bonwick Liberal Simcoe—Grey, ON

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege. I feel that my abilities as a parliamentarian have been obstructed and threatened due to a gesture by the member for Langley—Abbotsford.

The member showed me and several of my colleagues, in a gesture of anger during the vote, the middle finger of his right hand. Perhaps the member would like to apologize for this extremely rude and unparliamentary action.

Division No. 71Government Orders

6 p.m.

The Speaker

It is difficult for the Speaker to check Hansard because such a gesture would not be recorded. I did not see it.

I would hope that hon. members would refrain from making gestures which are offensive to other members. I would rule that it is not a question of privilege, but I would encourage all hon. members to treat each other with the utmost courtesy at all times.

Final Offer Arbitration In Respect Of West Coast Ports Operations ActPrivate Members' Business

February 10th, 1998 / 6 p.m.

Reform

Dale Johnston Reform Wetaskiwin, AB

moved that Bill C-233, an act to provide for the settlement of labour disputes affecting west coast ports by final offer arbitration, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to participate in the debate on my private member's Bill C-233 which provides a process to prevent costly strikes and lockouts at west coast ports.

As new MPs in 1994 one of the first emergencies we were forced to deal with emanated from a work stoppage at west coast ports. The Reform Party has always understood that when labour disputes occur in the transportation sector or at the ports, it is the users, the innocent third parties who pay the costs. Since we arrived here four years ago there have been three occasions when work stoppages in these sectors alone required back to work legislation.

In February 1994 the dispute between the British Columbia Maritime Employers Association and the International Longshoremen's and Warehousemen's Union shut down west coast ports for almost two weeks. One year later, in March 1995, parliament was called on to bring an end to a dispute between the foremen from this very same union and the Maritime Employers Association. No sooner had this group been ordered back to work than we were called upon to pass another bill legislating an end to a work stoppage, this time in the railway sector.

On each occasion the Reform Party pressed the government to act quickly to protect the livelihood of the users. Rather than deal with each work disruption on an ad hoc basis, we believe it would make more sense to deal with all potential disputes ahead of time by establishing a process called final offer selection arbitration.

This government, however, does not see the need for a permanent solution. For some perverse reason it passes up every opportunity to solve the problem once and for all by giving both sides the tools to settle their disputes. The government prefers instead to take a piecemeal approach to labour issues. Nowhere is this more obvious than when the labour bill currently awaiting second reading is examined.

The Canada Labour Code has jurisdiction over only 10% of the country's workforce, yet a work disruption in any federally regulated work place has immediate, far-reaching and long lasting effects on the entire nation.

Because of the unique nature of the federal system alternate sources are often not available. It is in the interest of all Canadians that we have reliable access to essential services to keep employment within our borders and to establish and maintain a reputation worldwide as exporters of goods.

Our reputation as reliable exporters and shippers is dealt a severe blow every time work stoppages occur in the vital transportation and port sectors. Like a boxer, the more frequent and prolonged the blows the longer it takes to get back up until eventually the match is lost.

As a trading nation we cannot afford to lose ground. Today's global customers require a stable, dependable supply of goods. In a proper functioning labour environment, employers and employees both have to weigh the costs if they resort to a strike or lockout.

Employees will have to forgo wages, live on a meagre strike pay and face possible personal financial hardship. Employers, on the other hand, stand to forfeit lost sales and revenues. These are normally powerful enough incentives for a negotiated settlement.

In key economic sectors, however, this normal safeguard does not apply. The knowledge that work stoppage will not be permitted to last for any length of time must be factored into the negotiating process. If they cannot achieve their goals at the bargaining table all too often negotiating parties will give up and allow the federal government and its arbitrators to settle the dispute for them. Unfortunately the real victims of this process are not the employers and employees, but Canadian farmers, producers, importers and exporters.

Good labour relations cannot be legislated. Final offer selection arbitration, however, gives the parties the tools to resolve their differences. It does not favour one side or the other.

Here is how it works. If and only if the union and employer cannot make an agreement by the conclusion of the previous contract, the union and the employer would provide the minister with the name of a person or persons they jointly recommend as an arbitrator or an arbitration panel. The union and employer would be required to submit to the arbitrator or panel a list of the matters still under dispute.

For disputed areas, each party would be required to submit a final offer for settlement. The arbitrator selects either the final offer submitted by the trade union or the final offer submitted by the employer; all of one position or all of the other. The arbitrator's decision would be binding on both parties.

A permanent and fair resolution process must be put in place, removed from the whims of government. Back to work legislation has become too predictable and management and unions count on it. Permanent legislation would provide both sides with predictable rules and a timetable by which to negotiate.

The risk to Canadian jobs should be minimized. Not only a significant number of jobs would be lost in the export sector if these disputes could not be resolved, but jobs at the ports will be at severe risk when alternative means to ship goods are utilized. The use of more reliable U.S. west coast ports would result in the loss of cargo and British Columbia jobs in the ports.

The cost interruption of government business should not occur. While there is need for regulation by various levels of government, it is unnecessary to put emergency measures in place each time labour and management are unable to reach a satisfactory agreement. Resolving the differences of these two groups can be achieved without interrupting the regular flow of government proceedings.

We are not talking about ending the collective bargaining process. We are talking about making it work better. Every time back to work legislation is used it usurps the collective bargaining process.

Final offer selection arbitration is not a new concept. As a matter of fact, it was used by the government to settle the 1994 longshoremen's dispute. At that time the minister of human resources development said:

The imposition of the final offer selection procedure should encourage the two sides to demonstrate a strong sense of rationality in deciding on the positions they place before the arbitrator.

That is what we have been saying all along.

Even the Mulroney government saw the benefits of final offer. It included it in the 1987 National Transportation Act as a mechanism to solve pricing disagreements between shippers and railways. One transportation writer described it as a very useful precedent for all rail shippers, in that it confirms that an inexpensive and expedited recourse is available when manufacturers or producers are dissatisfied with their freight rates.

The problem is that no government has yet been willing to enshrine final offer selection arbitration in the Canada Labour Code as a permanent dispute settlement mechanism. The best solution the government could manage is the half measure in Bill C-19, the amendments to the labour code, which would force grain handlers and longshoremen to cross the picket lines of their colleagues to ensure that the grain already in the ports is loaded on to ships.

By the time parliament intervened in 1994 in the dispute between the British Columbia Maritime Employers Association and the International Longshoremen's and Warehousemen's Union the work stoppage is estimated to have run up $125 million in direct costs, $250 million in indirect costs, and $500 million worth of grain sales had been threatened. During the best of times this is a very severe hit on the national economy. In a recession it is devastating.

At the moment, despite the problems with the Canadian dollar and the recent jump in the unemployment rate, analysts describe the economy as strong. Yet a prolonged strike or lockout in the railway sector could wreak havoc with this recovery.

Grain represents 30% of the port of Vancouver's business. There is no doubt about its importance. I would be the first to agree that grain farmers have been forced to endure more than their fair share of losses due to labour disputes beyond their control.

The minister was in Vancouver last month begging farmers to support his bill but he is missing the point. Farmers do not want to be pawns in other people's labour disputes. They have enough obstacles to contend with from the weather to the wheat board.

Once again the threat of a rail strike hovers over us. In March 1995 when parliament legislated an end to the railways dispute, the legislation included provisions mandating two year contracts with an expiry date of December 31, 1997. A nationwide rail strike this spring is a very real possibility. Contract talks involving 6,500 CN Rail workers collapsed over the weekend despite the presence of a federal conciliator, and a strike vote is not unlikely.

The provision which the government is proposing as a solution to the problems of farmers will be useless if there is a rail strike. Final offer selection arbitration as described in the bill would give farmers, producers, importers and all exporters that use west coast ports the assurance that their goods would reach consumers unimpeded.

Final offer selection arbitration is not discriminatory. It does not single out one commodity over another like the Liberals are attempting to do with their proposed amendment to the Canada Labour Code. It is fair to importers that are suffering because of the dismal value of the Canadian dollar. It is fair to grain farmers who, thanks to the Canadian Wheat Board, have enough problems trying to sell their grain. They deserve to be spared the ongoing threat and uncertainty of strikes and lockouts. It is fair to all producers and exporters who use the west coast ports to ship their goods to market.

The time has come to include final offer selection arbitration as a permanent dispute settlement mechanism in the Canada Labour Code.

Final Offer Arbitration In Respect Of West Coast Ports Operations ActPrivate Members' Business

6:15 p.m.

Guelph—Wellington Ontario

Liberal

Brenda Chamberlain LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Labour

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to have this opportunity to participate in today's debate on Bill C-233.

I read my hon. colleague's bill with some interest and I am surprised by the lack of balance in the bill. I know my colleague tries very hard to achieve good solutions. However, it puzzles me that the member opposite has proposed such a rigid and mechanical approach to labour relations, especially at a time when rapid economic change both in Canada and around the world requires imaginative responses to difficult problems.

Free and fair collective bargaining is a cornerstone of industrial relations in Canada. Members will ask is the system perfect. My answer would be no, but what system is?

Our history and experience have demonstrated that collective bargaining has served the interests of labour and management well and, by extension, it has served the interests of Canadians well. The best solution in any dispute is the one arrived at by the parties themselves in the give and take process of collective bargaining. That is where this government feels that the responsibility should rightfully remain.

We pride ourselves as a free and democratic society and in such as society it is not the government's job to intervene and impose solutions on people. However, there are times when the rights and freedoms of different groups must be weighed against the interests of the nation and the well-being of its citizens as a whole.

No one disagrees with that but in labour relations in the federal jurisdictions we already possess the tools required to ensure that a balance exists between the national interest and the rights of the parties involved in a labour dispute.

My hon. colleague across the way is nodding and giving me a thumbs up.

Let me explain what I mean. Right now, if there is a labour dispute at a port, part I of the Canada Labour Code gives the minister and the government a variety of tools to help the parties. The goal is to assist the parties in their negotiations so that an agreement can be reached and a contract signed.

First, a conciliation officer is made available to assist the parties in their negotiations. Should the parties fail to reach agreement at this stage of the process further assistance can be rendered by a conciliation commissioner if deemed appropriate. At any time a mediator can be appointed to assist in the resolution of issues in dispute.

As members can see, there is no shortage of assistance available to help the parties reach a settlement.

The preamble to the Canada Labour Code states:

—Canadian workers, trade unions and employers recognize and support freedom of association and free collective bargaining as the basis of effective industrial relations for the determination of good working conditions and sound labour-management relations.

It means that in Canada we recognize that labour unions have made lives better for millions of their members. It means that labour unions have an important role to play in the economy. They also have an important role to play as a safeguard for workers rights.

When the Sims task force looked at part I of the code, it concluded that “free collective bargaining continues to serve our social and economic needs”.

In other words, the benefits of free collective bargaining usually outweigh the inconvenience caused by any strikes. When I say usually, I mean there will always be times when a strike causes too much damage for the economy. I think this is what the member for Wetaskiwin had in mind when he drafted his bill. His party mainly represents rural ridings where agricultural interests are dominant and important. If the ports are closed, produce does not head for its destinations abroad.

Ports play a crucial role in the distribution of goods into and out of this country, and a lengthy work stoppage cannot only create economic hardship but also it can jeopardize the country's reputation as a reliable trading partner in the international scene.

I am not going to argue this point, particularly in light of the legislation interventions which have been made in the past. There are times when the national interest demands an end to work stoppage and back to work legislation becomes an unfortunate necessity. That legislation normally includes a number of provisions, including a process to resolve the issues in dispute.

Final offer arbitration is one of the many mechanisms which may be chosen. Final offer arbitration can be a useful tool if used to settle a single, definitive issue such as the amount of a wage increase. But the implementation of this process across a broad range of issues is not appropriate.

The key weakness of final offer arbitration is that the arbitrator picks one side's position on all issues in its entirety over the other side. Suppose you have a labour dispute where the union wants an end to outsourcing, 50 cents more an hour and a dental plan. Management offers 25 cents, no dental plan and no end to outsourcing.

Some feel that final offer arbitration will encourage compromise, but it could well do the reverse. If you know that final offer arbitration will force someone to win everything and someone to lose everything, and if you know that final offer arbitration is based on final offers, you have a very good reason to stand pat and to take your chances.

Moreover, with final offer arbitration you cannot split the difference, 35 cents more an hour, keep the dental plan but allow management to continue outsourcing. That may be the best solution but with this process it can never happen. Either one side gets everything it wants or the other side does. End of argument. The more complicated the dispute, the worse it gets.

How, for example, would you use final offer arbitration to solve disputes in a court over manning provisions, rules of dispatch, grievance procedures or overtime? When you try to use final offer arbitration for complicated labour disputes, inevitably one side is left very bitter, and this bitterness keeps on poisoning the workplace after. It is very serious.

Instead of the sense of satisfaction that comes from settling differences through collective bargaining, you may instead have a legacy of simmering anger that manifests itself down the road.

There are better solutions. Bill C-19 currently before this House modernizes part 1 of the Canada Labour Code and improves the collective bargaining process for federally regulated industries. It balances the rights and the responsibilities of employers, unions and employees and it reflects Canada's changing labour relations environment. It will improve flexibility and encourage settlement of disputes.

I see my hon. colleague saying “well”, but perhaps that is a move forward and I feel that is progress too.

We have tried to strike a balance and I do not feel that Bill C-233 advances our interest at all. Instead of seeking a balance, it eliminates the balance completely. I urge all members of this House to vote against Bill C-233.