Debates of March 17th, 1998

Business Of The House

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I think you will find unanimous consent for the following motion. I move:

That ten members of the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans be authorized to travel to Iqaluit, Pangnirtung, Broughton Island, Nain, Stanley Bridge, The Pas, Grand Rapids, Winnipeg, Gimli, Selkirk, Sault Ste. Marie, Southhampton, Port Stanley, Leamington and Stoney Creek for the weeks of April 26 to May 1 and May 3 to May 8, 1998, in order to hold public hearings on the subject of fisheries management; and that the necessary staff do accompany the committee.

(Motion agreed to)

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I think you will find unanimous consent for the following motion. I move:

That in relation to its examination of Canada's policy on nuclear non-proliferation, arms control and disarmament, twelve members of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade, six from the Liberal Party and six from opposition parties, be authorized to travel to Washington, D.C., and New York during the period March 29 to April 1, 1998; and that the necessary committee staff do accompany the committee.

(Motion agreed to)

The House resumed consideration of the motion and the amendment.

Supply

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

On questions and comments for the hon. member for York South—Weston, we will start with the hon. member for Frontenac—Megantic. We will then go to Perth—Middlesex and then to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. If there is time we will start all over again.

[Jean-Guy Chrétien, Bloc, Frontenac—Mégantic, QC]

Mr. Speaker, when I was first elected to this House on October 25, 1993, I brought my little flag with me, all quite innocently, into this House and put it on my desk. An officer of the House came to see me, very discreetly of course, and said “In this place, sir, there are rules you must follow”. I told him I loved my Quebec flag. “No props are allowed here”, he said.

He also told me I could not have any grape juice or apple juice here, only water or ice water. Props in the House of Commons, even La Presse , were not permitted. I voluntarily complied with the rule.

As far as the flag is concerned, I clearly remember that, in Sault Ste. Marie, the riding of Ron Irwin, the former Minister of Indian Affairs, they stomped on the fleur-de-lys, the Quebec flag. What did the member for York South—Weston do to defend the Quebec flag? Nothing. What has this independent member done to punish or call to order the members of the Reform Party, who threw the Canadian flag to the ground, because the Speaker ruled against their wishes?

Could these whited sepulchres abuse the Canadian flag, when the Speaker or an opposition party—

[John Nunziata, Independent, York South—Weston, ON]

Mr. Speaker, as I understand it, the hon. member who threw the flag has since apologized to the House.

The point I would like to make to the hon. member is if he wants the right to display his provincial flag at his desk, I have absolutely no objection. If it is his desire to display a fleur-de-lis at his desk, that is his right. But please do not deny me my right to fly my flag at my desk.

[Elsie Wayne, Progressive Conservative, Saint John, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I have not been here as long as the hon. member and I have a great deal of respect for him. But we have to start building bridges in Canada. In the past two weeks we have put a whole lot of cracks in the foundation.

The hon. member referred to the Olympics. This is not the Olympics. We are not in here with a soccer ball. We are not in here for basketball. We have two Canadian flags here for which all of us have respect. We have really hurt Canada in the past two weeks.

When I looked up to the gallery that day I saw the shock on all the faces. People in the gallery could not believe this was happening.

I represent Canada's first incorporated city by royal charter which dates back to 1783. A flag cannot be placed in the council chambers other than the flag placed beside the Speaker. The flag is placed beside her worship. No other flags are allowed on the desks. Nothing else is allowed in the council chambers, the same as the House. We follow the rules laid down by the British Parliament. My colleagues ran on a platform to bring decorum to the House of Commons and they have ruined it.

[John Nunziata, Independent, York South—Weston, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I know the hon. member was not directing her comments at me.

The hon. member speaks of decorum. Since when is it not proper to wave the Canadian flag? When does that show a lack of decorum?

The motion before the House is not to allow members of Parliament to display large Canadian flags. The motion before the House is to give the right to members of Parliament to display a desk flag.

I have considerable respect for the hon. member and I know she has been an excellent member of Parliament, but she also takes pride in representing her constituents.

I cite a poll that was commissioned. The question was should MPs be allowed to have flags on their Commons desks, and 75% said yes to that question.

[Paul Devillers, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I have a couple of brief questions to the member. He made reference to it being morally wrong for members to vote to prohibit the placing of flags on desks in the Chamber. My understanding is that in the G-7 there is not another legislature that permits individual flags at individual desks of members.

Why is it morally wrong for this legislature to follow what is generally the accepted practice in the legislatures around the world?

There are already flags beside the Speaker's chair. Many of us wear the Canadian flag pin on our clothing. I wonder why he feels there is a need for additional flags.

[John Nunziata, Independent, York South—Weston, ON]

Mr. Speaker, with respect to other G-7 countries, frankly I do not care what other G-7 countries do with respect to how they treat their national symbols.

What I am saying to the hon. member is that the overwhelming majority of Canadians, including his very own constituents, want him to have the right to display the Canadian flag at his desk.

If he were truly representing the people of his riding, he would vote in favour of this motion. It seems that what is being asked here this afternoon is not the ability to disrupt the House, to wave large Canadian flags. Some members of Parliament, I included, want the right to do it. Why should I be prohibited as a member of the Canadian Parliament from waving this flag at my desk? What is so offensive—

[Elsie Wayne, Progressive Conservative, Saint John, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The hon. member for York South—Weston referred to the fact that there was a poll—

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

That is not a point of order. It being 5.43 p.m., it is my duty to interrupt the proceedings and put forthwith every question necessary to dispose of the business of supply.

The question is on the amendment. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the amendment?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

All those in favour of the amendment will please say yea.

[Some hon. members]

Yea.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

All those opposed will please say nay.

[Some hon. members]

Nay.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

Call in the members.

(The House divided on the amendment, which was negatived on the following division:)

Division No. 100

[The Speaker]

I declare the amendment lost. The next question is on the main motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Speaker]

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

[Some hon. members]

Yea.