House of Commons Hansard #99 of the 36th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was federal.

Topics

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1 p.m.

Reform

Preston Manning Reform Calgary Southwest, AB

Mr. Speaker, to set the member straight on that question, it was the victims of hepatitis C themselves who advanced the case. They did a far more effective job of it, far earlier than any politician on either side of the House.

It was Justice Krever who advanced this case to the point where it simply could not be ignored by the government or stuffed under the table.

The role that has been played by the Minister of Health in this issue has been that of a lawyer arguing the government's side of the case, not of a health minister whose primary concern is the health of Canadians.

There were arguments on one side of the issue. There were arguments on the other side of the issue. The health minister, this lawyer in health minister's clothing, took the arguments on one side of the issue and consistently presented them in this House until he was knocked off that position by the provinces, the victims and the official opposition.

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1 p.m.

Independent

John Nunziata Independent York South—Weston, ON

Mr. Speaker, I ask unanimous consent to extend the time to ask the Leader of the Opposition a question. I notice that a good number of members were rising to ask the Leader of the Opposition questions and I would ask that the time be extended.

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1:05 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

Is there unanimous consent?

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1:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

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1:05 p.m.

Vancouver Quadra B.C.

Liberal

Ted McWhinney LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Foreign Affairs

Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the hon. member for Halton.

May I thank the hon. member for Palliser for introducing a constructive and helpful motion in a non-adversarial spirit. I think the ultimate solutions to this issue will come in a spirit of co-operation that will include all members of the House. I will have something to say on the content of the resolution shortly, but let me simply say in historical retrospect a good deal of present problems stem from the way in which this issue was first handled.

I have consistently in the past as an expert witness on constitutional affairs before numbers of federal parliamentary commissions and others argued against the use, even the abusive use, of royal commissions of inquiry on issues that properly can be handled by parliament and should be handled by parliament.

It is the Mackenzie King ploy which is peculiar to Canada among all the common law countries that if you have a difficult problem you postpone the decision by setting up a royal commission, knowing that it will take a long time. This is I think one of the problems. When the Mulroney government made the decision to go to a royal commission I think it had enough facts to make a decision at that time. All the social problems were known and I think it could have been handled.

Instead we, in a very delayed way, handled in a forum not conducive to broader community solutions a problem that could have been handled otherwise. As the United States supreme court has said, only limited aspects of social and community problems are seen through the narrow windows of litigation and legal processes. I think this has been one of the problems in dealing with the hepatitis C crisis.

It is, however, one of the interesting paradoxes that the gentleman whose name has been so often cited on both sides of the House, with the impression in my mind that very few members have consulted his report and those who have may have been lost for the large continuing truths in the thicket of information that goes through so many volumes, is somewhat opposed to legalistic solutions.

He was a student of our greatest torts and delicts lawyers and Dean Cecil Wright of the University of Toronto. Wright's basic solution for problems of this sort was to take it away from lawyers, take it away from legal processes, get into the larger area of community compensation in relation to social problems.

It is interesting that the first direct application of that thinking was in automobile insurance, take it away from the torts lawyers. You get a different aspect and a different approach. Horace Krever who was my colleague for four or five years has essentially reflected that approach.

A very perceptive editorial in the Globe and Mail today makes this comment, that he does come out in a way with a non-legal solution. He looks at the issue and wants a solution that sees a problem as a community problem, not a one shot solution as such, but what do you do with people whose lives have been potentially shattered and in certain cases actually shattered. Is it not part of the community problem solving approach, the social security network, to be able to handle medical emergencies that arise, that have arisen in the past and that will surely arise again in the future in this period of new patent medicines so suddenly without full tests? Is it not better to handle it in that larger context?

I think the answer to that is yes, it is better handled in that context. I rather regret that the Mulroney government did not 10 or 12 years ago bring the parliamentary standing committee on health into the act.

The health committee in this parliament is one of our best committees. We know its members work hard, are dedicated and do not travel much. They do their work, and why not in this particular context.

One of the problems, however, in the interpretation of the Krever commission report as it has emerged has been to confine and fetter the solutions into the context of a lawyer's package, a financial legal settlement. When the issues are before the courts, a great deal of this goes toward lawyer fees. However, even outside the context of a legal settlement by lawyers before the courts, I think some questions are relevant.

It is generally assumed, by the way, that somebody is liable in this case. I am not sure as a lawyer whether this is true other than the Red Cross, but I think this is the approach that distorts a solution along the broader lines I have suggested.

The arbitrary figure that has emerged of $60,000 per person is apparently, on the statistical evidence, unnecessary in a third of the cases, somewhat arbitrary in another third but totally inadequate, clearly, in at least a third of the cases we have been seeing. It will not meet more than a fraction of the burden, the disruption and destruction of the total life picture.

I think what we are looking for is a solution within the existing social security network. People on this side of the House take great pride in it but we can recognize also the contribution from a provincial political leader of the hon. member for Palliser's party, the contribution made to a comprehensive social security network which not only includes health, medicare and pharmacare but family and disability insurance. The basis for a proper solution is available within the existing governmental services.

I think the motion from the hon. member for Palliser is constructive because in a certain way I do not think we have really heard what the hepatitis C victims really want in this particular issue. We have been told that this is the solution asked for but I would have rather thought that we would get a more nuanced approach such as I have suggested if they were consulted.

Bringing the representatives into the health ministers' meeting is not for the federal government alone to make the decision. However, I am sure the other governments would agree that bringing them in is a way to enlightenment of how the problem is viewed and to producing a compensation that is not going to be lawyers' compensation but may go well beyond that in the sense that it is really making sure the victims can live out their lives decently with their families and dependants. We can bring it to a solution in this particular way.

I look forward to the meeting taking place on this basis and to the responses made in that context.

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1:10 p.m.

Independent

John Nunziata Independent York South—Weston, ON

Mr. Speaker, it seems that a prerequisite of the government's having any credibility whatsoever in attending a conference of health ministers is that the government has to accept the principle that all individuals who contracted hepatitis C as a result of the blood system should be compensated and should have access to compensation.

I would like to ask the member if he agrees now, in light of the fact that his minister has agreed to attend a meeting, that all victims ought to be compensated.

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1:10 p.m.

Liberal

Ted McWhinney Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the question from the hon. member. The problem here I think is the meaning of the term compensation. I spent a good deal of my time making the distinction between a lawyer's one shot compensation and a compensation within the larger community, social security network. This would cover not merely victims of hepatitis C but all victims of unattended, unexpected medical disasters. We have had them before with thalidomide and we are going to get them again in the future.

In that context, I believe the minister would be in agreement with him.

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1:15 p.m.

Liberal

Lynn Myers Liberal Waterloo—Wellington, ON

Mr. Speaker, I listened with great interest to the member from Vancouver Quadra, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs. He made some very thoughtful and insightful comments and observations.

I wonder if he could answer this question. I was particularly interested in his comment that the solution is in the existing social security network. I wonder if he could go on and elaborate more about that in terms of what we as a government and indeed all Canadians should be looking for with respect to the solution being, in part, in the social security network.

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1:15 p.m.

Liberal

Ted McWhinney Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for that very thoughtful question.

It has always seemed to me that the solution is not limited to medical treatment, or hospitalization, or pharmacare, or in-house treatment, which I would regard as necessary parts of the package. When I spoke of the larger social security network I meant members of victims' families and their dependants. Their lifestyle is dramatically changed, just as it is for those who have contracted the disease. The fear is there.

We are getting into the area of human resources. Part of a comprehensive solution must involve the ministry of Human Resources Development. It must involve an expanded and an accelerated view of disability pensions. It might involve an ombudsman being appointed to accelerate these cases and to get them through.

We need that sort of comprehensiveness. It is in the social security network. It may need extra shortfall funds in particular cases. It certainly is not going to get into the $3 billion expenditure that some people feared when the original announcements were made.

If we can get into that larger perspective we have a better solution than what has emerged so far in the debates in the House.

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1:15 p.m.

Halton Ontario

Liberal

Julian Reed LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister for International Trade

Mr. Speaker, this debate is taking place in the light of a change of mind or a change of heart by the province of Ontario. According to news reports it has changed its mind three times in the last four or five days.

I would caution all members of this House that the changing of the mind of one province does not an agreement make. The NDP Government of British Columbia has been steadfast in refusing to budge on this issue. At this date we do not know what the chairman of the committee of ministers, the minister of health for Saskatchewan, is going to say in response to that change of mind by the province of Ontario.

Our minister, in response to Ontario's change, has agreed to meet once again. There are some very good reasons for that. The fact is that the decision which was brought to this House was the decision of 13 provincial and territorial governments. That message has got to be made very clearly. When our Minister of Health was standing to defend that decision, he defended an agreement of 13 territorial and provincial governments.

During the last five weeks there has been a disease in this House. It is a disease called political opportunism. That disease has some symptoms that are clear. The first one is selective memory loss. You forget part of the story and only tell half the story, and that becomes the case. The second symptom is failure to recognize where responsibility really lies. The third is, in many cases, a complete reversal of party policies in order to exploit this tragedy.

I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, that had it not been for the Minister of Health this issue would never have reached the table. The previous—

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1:20 p.m.

Reform

Dick Harris Reform Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. While the Liberal member opposite was delivering his speech he made an accusatory statement against the Reform Party in which he said that we were exploiting the victims of hepatitis C—

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1:20 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I think the hon. member is engaging in debate. I did not hear the hon. member make any reference to any particular party.

My recollection is that he was referring to the debate in the House in general. I did not hear an accusation and I certainly suggest the hon. member is raising a point of debate.

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1:20 p.m.

Liberal

Julian Reed Liberal Halton, ON

I am sorry my hon. friend feels so sensitive about it.

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1:20 p.m.

Reform

Dick Harris Reform Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC

When you lie you really take offence to it.

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1:20 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The hon. member for Prince George—Bulkley Valley knows that he should be prudent in his choice of words. I know he is not making an accusation, but I invite him to think about his comments and avoid that kind of comment in the House.

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1:20 p.m.

Liberal

Julian Reed Liberal Halton, ON

Mr. Speaker, I have been called worse by better.

I point out that my minister brought this issue to the table when the previous government wanted to cover it up. It did not want him to do anything because it knew it would be contentious.

At first the provinces and territories would not engage in a dialogue on any kind of compensation. Finally the minister got them together and they agreed on the package that he came back to the House with, which he has defended.

I would suggest that the Minister of Health who has been castigated in this place for the last five weeks is a hero for doing that. He is a hero for taking a position of leadership that previous governments would not take.

The selective memory loss of the opposition is simply a refusal to acknowledge that there were other governments involved in the agreement. There were 13 provinces and territories involved in those decisions. When governments began to hang the minister out to dry, starting with the premier of the province of Quebec and spreading from there, it was—I wonder why I stop speaking when the hon. member interjects. I really should keep going.

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1:20 p.m.

NDP

John Solomon NDP Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

I would be lost for words defending Rock too.

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1:20 p.m.

Liberal

Julian Reed Liberal Halton, ON

I will never be lost for words defending someone who has shown the courage that the minister has shown over the last five weeks defending the government against the disease of political opportunism.

I spoke about the reversal of policy. The Reform Party must bear the brunt of responsibility for its reversal of policy. The Reform Party uses this issue to try to look good on health care because it knows that the Reform approach to Canada's health care system is not popular. It is strange to see the Reform Party suddenly talking about compassion when the sum total of its policy over the years has been anything but compassion.

Where was the compassion when the Reform Party said it would cut $3.5 billion from social assistance programs? Where was the compassion when it said it would cut $3 billion from old age security and $5 billion from the employment insurance program? Where was the compassion when it said it would cut $3 billion from equalization payments to Quebec, Saskatchewan and Manitoba? Where was the compassion when it said it would dismantle the Canada pension plan and eliminate benefits for both disabled and pregnant women on maternity leave? I point out that the maintenance of the Canada pension plan—

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1:20 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The hon. member should be careful if he is rising on a point of order. I think I heard words that were quite unparliamentary from him. Maybe he is raising a point of order about his own comments. I invite him to be very careful in his choice of language.

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1:25 p.m.

Reform

Ken Epp Reform Elk Island, AB

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate your warning and your advice. I will follow that advice, but I want the record to show that I find it very offensive for this member to put out the words that he is putting out which are so far from the truth they cannot be accepted.

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1:25 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I am sorry, but I think the hon. member is engaging in debate. The hon. parliamentary secretary is stating his view. I know members may disagree with the view, but I think it is a matter of debate and not a point of order.

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1:25 p.m.

Liberal

Julian Reed Liberal Halton, ON

Mr. Speaker, I would point out that the maintenance of the Canada pension plan will be one of the means by which people who are too ill to work, who are totally incapacitated, will be assisted. The Canada pension plan is there for those people. As modest as it is, it is there for those people at any age.

The Reform Party wanted to dismantle the Canada pension plan. We all know that. Today the Canada pension plan is there for those victims of hepatitis C who have lost their ability to work. It is there as a backstop for all of them. Reformers wanted to do away with it.

We will be voting for the NDP motion this afternoon. We support it. The vote is certainly free, as far as I am concerned, because I am perfectly content to vote for the motion.

I hope and pray there is a change taking place in the minds of the provincial and territorial governments. The responsibility rests with them to get together and to come to some decisions that will allow us to move forward on this issue.

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1:25 p.m.

NDP

Judy Wasylycia-Leis NDP Winnipeg North Centre, MB

Mr. Speaker, first of all let me say to the member who has just spoken that we appreciate further indication of Liberal support for our motion today.

I want to raise with the member his comments about the concerns many on this side of the House have raised about the health minister and his actions over the past five weeks.

I want the member to know that we are not singling out the health minister's actions over the past five weeks as shameful. We have said shame on all members who voted against a policy last week calling for fair and full compensation. We have said shame on government policy that actually set up a two tier system of benefits for hepatitis C victims.

We have said shame on a government that has failed to recognize responsibility for regulatory failure, as happened in the past when it came to thalidomide and HIV.

I would like to ask the member if he and his colleagues are now prepared to take Justice Krever's recommendation seriously and take to the next federal, provincial and territorial ministers' meeting a proposal whereby they accept full responsibility for the failure of the blood system and look at the option presented by Justice Krever in terms of no fault insurance.

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1:25 p.m.

Liberal

Julian Reed Liberal Halton, ON

Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member knows the blood system and the processing of blood was in the hands of the provinces and the Red Cross. There was responsibility there.

In order to come to a successful conclusion on this issue every province and territory had to be included. They are part of the answer and their unanimity is absolutely necessary.

I share the feeling of concern for all victims. There is not a member of this House who does not.

The fact is if we are going to come to some successful agreement and conclusion on it, it has to involve not just the federal government by itself but also all of the provinces and territories. Quite frankly in this case there is no other choice.

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1:30 p.m.

Reform

Dick Harris Reform Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, it is quite a chore to sit and listen to the hon. member across deliver, and I am trying to think of the word for it but I guess it was a diatribe on how the Liberal government and particularly his hero the Minister of Health were the ones that were the leaders in getting compensation for the hep C victims.

The member forgot that the Minister of Health only obtained compensation for half of them. What about the other half? That has been the question in this House for the last two or three weeks. What about the ones that were so conveniently forgotten by this disgraced Liberal health minister and his colleagues? We watched the Minister of Health sink deeper and deeper into the pit of disgrace and we wondered whether he would have the courage to show his head again.

Just the other day when the provincial governments were talking about how they wanted to take a second look at the forgotten hep C victims, the Minister of Health and the Prime Minister had the audacity to condemn the provincial health ministers for the compassion they were showing to the forgotten hep C victims. That was disgraceful. The Minister of Health had the gall to label their compassion as the lowest form of cynicism. The actions by the Minister of Health and the Liberal Party toward these hep C victims is, in a word, reprehensible. They should be ashamed of themselves.