House of Commons Hansard #208 of the 36th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was crime.

Topics

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

An hon. member

He's the guy who beat up PSAC single-handedly.

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Steve Mahoney Liberal Mississauga West, ON

Is that what he did?

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

An hon. member

Yes.

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Steve Mahoney Liberal Mississauga West, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am going to talk about the bill, but I do want to point out a couple of anomalies, one might say. There are a couple of statements and remarks made by members of the Reform Party that show the reason they simply have no credibility anywhere east of the Manitoba border and the reason they are falling apart in western Canada.

Their cry used to be that the west wants in. Well, the west is in. The west has tremendous representation at the cabinet table. Sixteen Liberal members are doing all the work that the Reform Party will not do for their constituents in western Canada. We have a task force travelling across the west to try to pick up the pieces because the Reform Party refuses to tell the people in western Canada about the good work and the programs available, put in place by this government. We have to do their work. They should send a percentage of their paycheques to their colleagues in those provinces in western Canada.

Here is another marvellous statement about how they would deal with young offenders. This is about the dreaded repeat offender: “The repeat offender will never see the light of day after committing his second act”. The second time with one's hand in the cookie jar and we are throwing away the key, that is it. Boy, that is compassion.

It is the party that in some incredulous manner is trying to convince the Canadian people that they have changed their stripes, that they are softer and gentler. I do not think so, and the Canadian public sure as heck does not think so.

Let me give a couple more before I go to the meat of the bill. It says here “except in cases of very young offenders”. I would like to hear that definition. I think I know what it is. “Except in cases of very young offenders the identities of young offenders must be made public”. We should think about that. A youngster gets in some trouble. Sometimes young males are all full of testosterone; they are excited, running around and they do something stupid.

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

An hon. member

Like murder?

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Steve Mahoney Liberal Mississauga West, ON

No, that is the point. The Reform Party member says “like murder”. Eighty-seven per cent of the crimes committed by young offenders are not violent offences. Reformers know that, but they consistently want to somehow showcase the ones that are violent. This bill makes changes that will deal with young violent offenders.

There will be the option to publish the names of young violent offenders, particularly if the justice system deems them to be a menace or a danger to society. That is what the bill does. I am astounded that members opposite did not stand and give a standing ovation. This is what they have been asking for.

Going back to the point that except in cases of very young offenders the identity should be made public, their definition of a young offender should be 10 years old. A 10 year old gets in some trouble and he is charged by the police. He stole something; he was shoplifting. He got in with a bad gang of kids. Who knows what it was? Maybe tragically he got involved with drugs. They would have his name on the wall at the golf club, I suppose, as being late paying his dues. They would somehow do the scarlet letter on this 10 year old child.

How in God's name can anybody that is at all responsible, being an elected member in a place like this and representing constituents in this wonderful country, stand there with a straight face, without total shame, and suggest that is any kind of credible way of dealing with a 10 year old child in trouble with the law? It is truly frightening, frankly.

I know they want to soften the image. I know they want to change the position as far as the public is concerned. They talked about it at the UA conference that I referred to. One interesting thing about being an elected representative in this great democratic society is that people have a nasty habit of holding politicians accountable for the things they say. They had better think before they say them.

They come out with a statement saying that the Reform Party supports legislation which would allow the publication of the names of all convicted offenders, including young offenders. The bill says if it is a violent offence, if there is danger to society, the option is there. That should address their concerns. To simply say that we should publish the names of every person who gets in trouble with the law from the age of 10 on up is so nonsensical as to be almost laughable.

I want to refer to some good stories. I have the honour of chairing a group called the prime minister's task force on youth entrepreneurship. Recently I was at a hearing in Halifax at which we heard from young entrepreneurs, service providers, and people involved in helping young people.

It was a wonderful establishment, by the way. I would say to members from Nova Scotia that I believe the province of Nova Scotia has it right. I have been right across the land, through the west and down east. We are continuing to travel. We will be going north and through Ontario and Quebec. Nova Scotia has five operations, two of which I have seen in Windsor, Nova Scotia, and one in Halifax, called Open for Business. Open for Business is like the Planet Hollywood of youth entrepreneurship. It is wonderful. The one in Windsor is in a shopping mall and the other one is in downtown Halifax. They are just alive with young people.

We were at a hearing where we had some young entrepreneurs in a panel that appeared before us in a group discussion. Senator Moore was with us and he asked a question of a very young lady who was one of the young entrepreneurs. He said “How did you find out about Open for Business?” Her answer was astounding. She said “My parole officer told me”. We were all stunned at the remark because just looking at this person would certainly not fit the profile of what we might expect to be an individual who had a parole officer.

She had started a business. I will not go into details about her business. She had been convicted under the Young Offenders Act. She has a four year old son at home. She was contacted and was told that she was a candidate for a program in the province of Nova Scotia called second chance. Obviously second chance is what this bill is all about.

This young woman came in and met with the counsellors. She met with peers. She met with young people. The real key to success in the Open for Business concept is that there are peer counsellors, young people who have had a bit of entrepreneurial experience and can work with young people who have great ideas. Mr. Mahoney

In the province of Manitoba in the month of July I will be attending a camp that is run for youth at risk. It is another second chance program. It is an opportunity for young people to come into a camp where they are taught life skills and entrepreneurial thinking.

This is absolute cutting edge stuff. This is stuff that we should be spreading the gospel about throughout the land. We should be inviting young people at risk to get involved in the camp in Manitoba and to go to places like Open for Business and get involved in second chance. This stuff works.

The young woman I met in Nova Scotia has turned her life around. She now has a business that has been open for eight months. She takes her four year old son to work with her because it is the type of business where the child is not in the way and she can function.

Even if the business were to close tomorrow, this young woman has turned her life around. I do not know what her crime was. She has a parole officer. I suspect it must have been fairly serious. I do not think we assign parole officers to youths coming out of school. She has turned her life around, even if her business were to fail, because of the work done by the men and women and the young people in the province of Nova Scotia at this wonderful place called Open for Business and this wonderful program called second chance. That is what has turned her life around.

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

Reform

Howard Hilstrom Reform Selkirk—Interlake, MB

Don't go away. I will be right back.

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Steve Mahoney Liberal Mississauga West, ON

I will not go away, trust me. The hon. member can trust me. I am with the government.

It is this kind of intervention we should be doing more of instead of coming up with nonsensical statements about pieces of wood, caning, punching and hitting. We just do not beget respect from young people by treating them that way.

I understand fully that there was a generation which believed in that. I attended a Catholic boarding school. If we want to talk about pieces of wood and paddles, they used closed fists and boots to take care of their discipline. That is what happened to me. It has had lasting, damaging effects. The violence I saw in that school meted out by men of the cloth, I would not tolerate now for one second if it were my son. It is wrong, but in the 1950s and 1960s it was commonplace. It was the way of dealing with things. It is the way we were brought up. I do not blame people for that. It was a mentality that came out of that generation. I do not totally understand it.

I grew up in a family of 10 kids. My dad was a labour leader. He was just as likely to cuff me across the head as not. He was a tough man. That was the mentality that he grew up in, that I grew up in. It is not the mentality of my sons. Even though I consider myself to be a very strong disciplinarian, I use my head and heart instead of my fists.

I think that is what the bill does. It has a mind and it has a heart. It takes on the issue of young offenders and gives young offenders an opportunity to start over again, to have a new life. If they commit a crime a second time it means we have to work with them.

There are elements to the bill that will put requirements on young offenders as part of the sentencing that will occur. They will have to do work in the community and obey certain rules. They will have to stay drug free and alcohol free. They will not associate with certain individuals with whom they might have got into trouble. Maybe they were a member of a gang. That happens today. Tragically we see it in the greater Toronto area too often. Maybe they will have to live up to a curfew. The idea of curfews in some communities is repugnant. It probably makes sense. If they break the rules imposed by the justice system under this new law, they can be hauled right back into court and put into custody. It gives them a chance.

If Canada is known for anything in the world, it is that we offer hope, we offer a chance, and we care about our young people, in fact all our people. There can be some changes. I do not have a problem with making some changes at committee or with taking a look at improving the bill. That may well make sense. However, some policies have been espoused against the bill. To oppose the bill because one is a separatist and thinks that it does not give enough power to the provinces or because one does not think it goes far enough and wants to incarcerate 10 year olds, is a most unfortunate use of the privilege of being a member of parliament. It is an abuse of the power we all have as representatives of the people.

Obviously I support the bill. It is about time we amended and reworked the Young Offenders Act. This is positive. This is good for young people. I think it will be good for our justice system.

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

4:25 p.m.

Reform

Myron Thompson Reform Wild Rose, AB

Mr. Speaker, it is tough to ask the member any questions after that kind of speech, especially when he does not even know what he is talking half the time. I might as well talk about the years I spent in school because he raised them.

I spent a number of years there. I went through a number of school boards and a number of superintendents, all of whom gave me high praises and letters of merit. All kinds of great things came out of that experience for the way I operated, which was a gentle but firm tough love method. I never doubled my fist and neither did anybody else. We had a kids at risk program that worked very effectively. We were able to identify kids as low as grade one who were at risk. We were able to work effectively and it did not take legislation. It did not take anything but good common sense. Many people's lives were straightened out before it ever got to that point.

During those earlier years we had the freedom to operate as individuals with intelligence enough to know how to truly deal with some of the problems, regardless of the member's rhetoric. He does not know anything about it. He was not there. He read a little teeny clip, which was probably my talking about when I got a piece of wood, which is neither here nor there.

In the early eighties along came the Liberal government which brought in a charter of rights and then the Young Offenders Act. Suddenly everybody in the school on the kids at risk programs were tied. They could not do certain things because the government would not allow the good things that were going on to happen. Now it is espousing that these things should happen. Yet the charter of rights stops half of it. That is Liberal legislation. The Young Offenders Act came into being in 1984 and violent crime escalated, and the members knows that. What does he say about that?

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Steve Mahoney Liberal Mississauga West, ON

Mr. Speaker, every once in a while I hear this member start out by making some sense. He even shows a bit of compassion when he talks about working with young people. I would believe that if he worked in the education system in his home community he probably was a decent person to those young people.

I do not know why he said these things. Why would he say that they should taste a piece of wood if he really cared about young people? I do not know why. I made the point that when we speak in this place we are accountable. Maybe the hon. member did not realize when he was talking to a reporter that the reporter would actually repeat it. Maybe that was the problem. He thought he was just kidding. I do not now, but it does not surprise me.

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

4:25 p.m.

Reform

Myron Thompson Reform Wild Rose, AB

Just answer the question.

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

4:25 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

I am going to use my prerogative and recognize the hon. member for Matapédia—Matane.

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

4:30 p.m.

Bloc

René Canuel Bloc Matapédia—Matane, QC

Mr. Speaker, having been a teacher myself, I would not have liked to have had a principal like some members I see here. My principals were very humane people and when someone was having problems they tried to understand why, instead of punishing them.

I myself have hidden delinquent students in one office or another. I have taken some of them home with me. They made progress, slowly, and I can tell you that today—and I say this in front of everyone, so they will hear it too—they have become upstanding citizens.

I was listening to my colleague from the government party. He wondered how people could be in difficulty. How could some become delinquents?

He said something very true. Very often, it is because of hopelessness. These young people are given nothing. They are not challenged. They are 12, 14 or 15 years old, and their parents do not work. There is a major problem.

It is really tough for someone who loses his job at 40, 45 or 50. The child is at home and can see what is happening. The child realizes that he could end up like his father.

This is a problem for society. Fortunately in Quebec there is a challenge offered: sovereignty. Young people in the CEGEPS and universities are following us. Our clientele is essentially the young people.

I would like to put a question to the hon. member for Mississauga West. Instead of hiding in a law harsher than the previous one—and we know that former works relatively well and this is why we oppose the bill—should we not put more money into prevention for elementary and secondary school students rather than corner them in a law?

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Steve Mahoney Liberal Mississauga West, ON

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate what the member is saying. I think philosophically I would be much more likely to agree with this member's attitude about dealing with young people than I would with the party that would throw out the bill of rights and all of those aspects.

However, I do not understand why the Bloc would suggest that we stay with the current act. We have seen problems with the Young Offenders Act. Difficulties have been pointed out and there is a valid criticism of the lack of ability to deal with violent young offenders. It is not much of a deterrent when a young offender knows that the worse he or she is going to get is three years in jail for committing violence.

There has to be some ability to move violent young offenders into the adult court system. Thirteen percent of young offenders who commit crime commit violent crime. That is one of the changes which this bill will effect.

There also has to be, and should be, an ability to protect society. We can do that by publishing the names of young offenders when the justice system deems they are a danger to society.

There are changes which I think the hon. member should realize are important improvements to the Young Offenders Act.

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

4:30 p.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the member for Mississauga West for what I thought was a very good speech. It is a pleasure to watch a real pro get a good head of steam up now and then, especially when they are comments that I can associate with.

I have quite a bit of personal knowledge about young offenders, street gangs and so on, coming from Winnipeg. In the inner-city of Winnipeg we have quite a serious problem. We have been forced to deal with it and forced to find lasting solutions.

I want to thank the member for pointing out some of the exciting and innovative things that are being done in the province of Manitoba to try to deal with kids as kids. The member clearly pointed out the folly in treating kids like adults in terms of the criminal justice system.

Former Lieutenant Governor of Manitoba, Yvon Dumont, was the first Metis lieutenant governor of Manitoba. He started something that was called the Lieutenant Governor's Foundation for Youth. I was a member of its board prior to being elected to this place. One of the things he pointed out in dealing with the young people who were causing a lot of the property crimes in the inner-city, like car theft, was that these kids do not steal these cars for the lousy $50 that they get from some fence, although that certainly is part of it.

What really motivates these kids to steal half a dozen cars in an evening is that they crawl underneath the steering column in the car, they break it open, find the three wires, push them together and the thing starts. It is exciting and it is interesting. It is auto electronics. It is like the thrill a mechanic gets when he tunes up a car.

These kids have some redeemable virtues in the fact that they are interested. They would make good apprentices.

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Steve Mahoney Liberal Mississauga West, ON

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the comments of the member who just spoke. He called me a pro. The member who spoke before him said that I was stupid. I think I will accept the latter definition.

To follow up on his point, the member said they would make good apprentices. I raised that point at one of our youth entrepreneurship hearings. I asked a question and I was really surprised at the answer. I asked “Has anybody thought about young offenders being entrepreneurs?” Everybody laughed. There was a professional in the audience who stood and said “As matter of fact we have”.

Outside of the violent young offender, a young offender is very much like an entrepreneur, but in a negative way. If we can take these young people and put them in programs to redirect and refocus their energy, I think we might have something.

There is proof in Manitoba. I congratulate the province and the member for that. There is proof in Nova Scotia. I saw it firsthand. I met with the young people.

I would invite these dinosaurs to come to the camp in Manitoba in July to meet some of these youth at risk, these young people who they would take a block of wood to or who they would cane. Come and meet these kids to see how they are turning their lives around. That is what this bill is about.

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

It is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Mississauga South—Taxation.

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Reform

Allan Kerpan Reform Blackstrap, SK

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I wonder if you would seek unanimous consent to extend questions and comments on this particular dissertation.

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

Does the member for Blackstrap have a specific time in mind?

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Reform

Allan Kerpan Reform Blackstrap, SK

Mr. Speaker, I think another 10 minutes would be sufficient.

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

The member for Blackstrap has asked for unanimous consent to extend the time provided for questions and comments to the member for Mississauga West by 10 minutes. Is there consent?

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Reform

Myron Thompson Reform Wild Rose, AB

Mr. Speaker, maybe the member was not here from 1993 to 1997, but in the previous government I spent a lot of years as one of the major critics of the Young Offenders Act and other parts of the justice system, which I will continue today because I have the opportunity.

I want to make a couple of things quite clear. First, my party and I believe that the number one success to youth crime is prevention. That is why we had kids at risk programs going on in the school which I operated for about 30 years until legislation came from the Liberal government which prevented us from doing so because we were not entitled to do some of the things we were allowed to do previously. We had to recognize certain things under the charter, which destroyed the ability of the police to work with a free hand, not in a violent way, but in a way that solved problems. Most of those young people are now parents and some are even grandparents who are grateful that we did these things.

I would like the member to come to some of the class reunions. I go to them every year. It is nice to be able to reminisce and to hear the thanks and praise from the students of the past for the work that we did on their behalf.

I know that prevention works. I know that is where a lot of the money should be spent; upfront, working on prevention.

I heard the previous member ramble on about publishing names. I will tell him about a couple of incidents.

When I was a principal of a school and received a student from another area, perhaps it was from another province or another city, we had all of the information about the individual. We could determine what we needed to do on the student's behalf in terms of education, social life or whatever. These young people would transfer into the school. After the Liberal government's legislation in the 1980s under the charter of rights, as a principal I did not have the right to receive information about any previous criminal record or anything else about a young person who showed up on our doorstep. We had to admit him. Perhaps he was 15, 12 or 18. It did not matter. I had no right to that information.

A lot of these people who were coming in from other areas had been kicked out of every school they had been to. A great deal of it was for criminal activity, and a lot of it was for violent criminal activity. Therefore, we were not in a position to provide any assistance which might have helped this individual with their problem. Instead we had to accept the student with no questions asked because we could not publish anything about these young people. As a result, I cannot even begin to tell members how long the list was of victims who came out of my own school and my own community because we did not know about that individual until after they continued down the same path for which they had been removed from a previous school before they had transferred to our school.

I will have to give the Conservative government one bit of credit. It will be very small. It did allow under the Young Offenders Act for certain information to be given to school authorities and other officials who might have a bearing on the lives of these individuals.

The Liberals would have never done that. It is better not to publish or let people know that these young people may be violent individuals. In the Liberals' view it is better not to let school authorities know.

Please tell me how that prevents crime. If there is a family with young children, would they not like to know if a young offender living next door had been in trouble in other places for having molested young children? As a parent, would that not be a good thing to know? Should school authorities not know about these particular individuals?

The Liberals' prevention method is to pour out money and then hope that the provinces will come up with something which will solve their problem, which they created in the 1980s when they brought in their loosey-goosey Young Offenders Act and the charter of rights at the same time, protecting everyone except the victims. Since that time the number of victims has escalated to such a degree that the 10 year report on the Young Offenders Act is a disgrace.

It is not all the fault of the act. It is the fault of the government which suddenly decided that we cannot publish names of individuals who could be a problem.

The government is at fault for making legislation that says people can no longer discipline in any fashion that might seem abusive, such as with a paddle or a strap. In my opinion, there was always a place for that in the schools. It was not used in a violent way and was seldom ever used, but there was a time when it was necessary and most of the time it was effective.

Government members would not understand those kinds of preventive measures. They talked the good talk on prevention, but I have not heard one good suggestion out of their mouths about how we should spend the money.

Prior to the Liberals coming in, people like the ones in my community and others had good programs in place. We were able to put them in place because there was not a Liberal government to stop us from doing so through silly legislation.

I cannot believe there could be a government in existence that would say that the public really does not know what is good for them; that it must pass legislation because the poor souls in Canada do not even know how to raise children in their own homes. Why, they might spank them, for goodness sakes. It cannot allow that, so it wants to remove section 43 from the Criminal Code which says that parents cannot spank their children any more, even if they think that is what they would like to do.

Nobody dislikes abuse more than this guy. I have seen it in my from peers in my own school. When I really saw it was after the Young Offenders Act and the charter of freedoms and rights came in. Everything went sky high.

The Reform Party does not want to put 10 and 11 year olds in jail. We do not want to lash them or cane them. Nobody has ever said that. What we are saying is that we want them in the system so we can work with them and get them to a point where they will cease and desist from any activities of a criminal nature.

In Calgary a young person stole 150 cars before he was aged 12. In every instance there was nothing anybody could do except return him to his house and that was the end of it. He would then go out and do it again. When did this young fellow stop stealing cars? He stopped on his 12th birthday. He was smart enough to know that he could not continue that activity because from that point on he could be arrested and put in the criminal justice system. The government knows about that. That is not an isolated case. It also happened in Vancouver. I am not sure how many cars the young fellow in Vancouver stole, but it was the same story.

When I introduced a private member's bill dealing with young offenders and even adults who steal cars, there was a member of the Liberal government who dared to say something to the effect that the member for Wild Rose was out of his mind because he wanted to punish children who were simply taking a car for a joyride. He said there was nothing wrong with joyriding; that was a normal thing for young children to do. Stealing cars is not a normal thing to do.

It is fine for a person to learn how to be a mechanic, a good entrepreneur or fix cars. However, I would like the NDP member to know that learning how to hotwire a car in order to steal it is not really the best way to get an apprenticeship in the mechanics of a car. There are surely better ways. Maybe we should give these young people the opportunity for rehabilitation through some good solid programs.

Once again, the Liberals talk prevention and talk rehabilitation, but I have not heard one good suggestion about what that program might look like. Nobody can disagree with that. Everybody agrees with prevention and rehabilitation but they do not know how to do it.

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

An hon. member

Money.