Debates of Oct. 15th, 2001

Terrorism

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, we have had discussions with the secretary general and he has spoken publicly. He is in agreement with the way we are operating at this time. Of course these terrorists could be elsewhere. If they were in Canada we would not need the United States to come and arrest them. We would do it as Canadians on Canadian soil. It would be our responsibility.

These terrorists can be in many countries and every country will do the same thing. I do not think that Canada will need the American army to do what we have to do.

National Security

[Joe Clark, Progressive Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Transport first said there would be no air marshals in Canada. On Friday he reversed himself and said that armed RCMP officers would be on flights to Reagan airport. Talk about a made in America policy.

Why are not Canadians who are flying to Toronto, Calgary, Vancouver or New York receiving the same protection as passengers to Washington? Will the minister now agree to have air marshals dispatched randomly to protect Canadian flights and Canadian flyers?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, the right hon. member will remember that I have talked in the House about improving security at Canada's airports so that we would not need armed personnel on aircraft.

However the issue of Air Canada returning to Reagan national airport is a special case. Air Canada is treated as the only foreign airline that has domestic status. That was hard fought in the open skies agreement. All we have said is that if this is a precondition for Air Canada returning to that airport we will allow the RCMP to be on board.

[Joe Clark, Progressive Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, let me try the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration. The minister of immigration has announced that she would protect our borders with her new magic cards. She admits these magic cards will not be ready until June next year and will not be fully operational for at least two years.

During the gap between now and June how will the country stop illegitimate asylum seekers from entering Canada and staying here?

[Elinor Caplan, Liberal, Minister of Citizenship and Immigration]

Mr. Speaker, at no time did anyone suggest that there is a magic wand or a simple solution to stopping world terrorism. What I have said is that we are introducing a new permanent resident card for all landed immigrants. It is to replace the Imm-1000, which we have all recognized is in need of replacement.

This new card is tamper resistant and fraud resistant. It is state of the art. I think it is an important addition to increasing the security that all Canadians will feel about those who enter our border showing proper documentation.

Anti-Terrorism Legislation

[Vic Toews, Canadian Alliance, Provencher, MB]

Mr. Speaker, the anti-terrorist legislation introduced today is a step in the right direction. It provides for the public naming of terrorist organizations operating in Canada, yet membership in these organizations is not prohibited. Why another half measure? Why has the government failed to do what is needed and indeed ban membership in terrorist organizations?

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member is well aware, this is a debate we had in the context of Bill C-24 on organized crime. I believe that the approach in the anti-terrorism legislation is much more effective. Membership is sometimes hard to prove, but what we have done in this legislation is criminalize a range of actions, including participation, contribution, facilitation, harbouring and concealing. We believe this legislation will be more expansive and more effective.

[Vic Toews, Canadian Alliance, Provencher, MB]

Mr. Speaker, terrorist organizations act through their members. Membership should be banned.

The new terrorism bill also appears to allow a terrorist to commit multiple murders and still be eligible for parole after serving a sentence. In light of the fact that terrorists often try to take as many lives as possible, can the minister assure us that there will be no parole for multiple murderers? There should be no free murders given to terrorists.

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is probably aware the legislation as proposed does deal with a wide range of things, including parole ineligibility in relation to certain offences. If the hon. member is asking whether this legislation amends or repeals existing provisions in section 745 of the criminal code, it does not. I will be very interested in hearing the hon. member's view in committee on that very point.

[Pierrette Venne, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister clearly stated that the anti-terrorism act should in no way interfere with our rights and freedoms.

According to this bill, the Attorney General of Canada may suspend the Access to Information Act at any time for reasons of national security.

Does this not completely eliminate the information commissioner's role of monitoring citizens' rights?

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I should point out to the hon. member that any amendments to either the Access to Information Act or the Privacy Act are what we call consequential amendments. I hope the hon. member understands that there may be limited circumstances in a judicial proceeding of some sort where there is evidence or information that affects national security. Therefore, we would like to ensure in appropriate circumstances that evidence or information is not made readily available to the public. It could affect Canada's allies. It could affect the well-being of informants and others.

[Pierrette Venne, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, this bill contains a provision whereby preventive detention without a warrant will now be possible in the context of the fight against terrorism.

Does this not interfere with fundamental rights and freedoms, in addition to being completely at odds with the intentions expressed by the Prime Minister?

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member refers to a concept called preventive arrest. Let me reassure the House that we have reviewed this provision very carefully. First of all, any officer would have to reasonably believe that a terrorist act would or will take place and in addition have a reasonable suspicion that the individual involved would participate in that particular act.

Consequently, we do believe that with those two protections, the requirement for reasonable belief and reasonable suspicion, this does not impact on the rights and freedoms of Canadians.

National Security

[Kevin Sorenson, Canadian Alliance, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the government can say what it wants about the legislation tabled today, but the fact remains that experts tell us Canada needs at least 5,000 more law enforcement personnel now, that Canada needs frontline people in the RCMP now, that Canada needs border patrol now, and that Canada needs more port police and immigration enforcement now. Will the solicitor general tell us where the funding is to meet these requirements?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, if my hon. colleague had been listening last Friday, $64 million was announced in Regina in order to address the immediate concerns over what has taken place. This will fill any of the gaps that have been created and provide for new RCMP officers and will also include better technology in order to make sure that they are able to do the job better.

[Kevin Sorenson, Canadian Alliance, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the solicitor general says that the government is committing $64 million now. Other reports say $250 million. That is one-third of what the government has spent registering the shotguns of duck hunters across Canada.

The minister calls this a balanced approach in fighting terrorism. Terrorism is on the rise. The times are urgent. When will the government get serious and fund our frontline law enforcement people and let Canadians know that it is serious about the security of this nation?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, my hon. colleague should be aware that including and since the last budget the government has put just under $2 billion into the public safety envelope to make sure that this country and its citizens remain safe.

Anti-terrorism Legislation

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, given that this anti-terrorism bill provides police with greater powers, proposes the suspension of the Access to Information Act at the request of the Solicitor General of Canada, and even provides that arrests may be made without a warrant, things could get out of hand and certain fundamental freedoms could be at risk.

Will the Minister of Justice acknowledge that the review period of three years provided in the bill is much too long and could she promise now to reduce that period to one year?

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I will not make that commitment, but the hon. member is right to point out that there is a three year review period in the legislation.

I have no doubt that the hon. member, being a member of the justice committee, will have the opportunity to engage me and other ministers when we appear before committee in discussion around whether or not that review period should be three years or some other period of time. I will be happy to entertain those discussions.

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, according to the bill, jurisdiction over criminal procedures is shared, and everyone in this House knows that the administration of justice is the exclusive jurisdiction of the provinces. Yet, no provincial justice department was consulted, and neither was that of Quebec.

In a situation where co-operation among provinces is vital, can the minister explain why her department is going it alone?

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, we have not decided to go it alone. My deputy minister this morning talked to most deputy ministers. What we hope to do is receive the input and advice of our provincial colleagues, just as we hope to receive the input and advice of parliamentarians and Canadians before the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

Terrorism

[Brian Pallister, Canadian Alliance, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Mr. Speaker, Ahmed Al-Kadr was named by the United Nations as a terrorist. He is a close associate of Osama bin Laden. He is a suspect in the September 11 terrorist attacks.

Mr. Al-Kadr is now in Afghanistan allegedly working for a Toronto based group called Health and Education Project International. Human Concern International, Mr. Al-Kadr's former front organization for terrorist fundraising, has had its assets frozen not by this government but by the governments of the United States and the United Kingdom.

Why has this government not frozen the assets of either of these organizations?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Solicitor General of Canada]

What takes place, Mr. Speaker, is that CSIS, the RCMP or other government agencies supply me with the information of whether an individual or an organization should be on the list. After evaluation, that is taken to cabinet and is approved or not approved. That is how the process works.

[Brian Pallister, Canadian Alliance, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

A speed-reading course, Mr. Speaker, is a soft touch for terrorism in this country. The government had intelligence indicating that the Tamil Tigers were a front for terrorists when the finance minister dined with the group. The government knew that Ahmed Ressam was an undesirable years before he tried to blow up the Los Angeles airport. It did nothing in case after case.

The government's lack of intelligence is surpassed only by its lack of will. Will the government break its trend of inaction and freeze the assets of the groups connected to Ahmed Sa'id Al-Kadr?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I would certainly not comment on any particular organization.

The government has taken major steps forward today. If information is supplied to me on any group or organization, it will be evaluated and taken to cabinet. The assets of these individuals or organizations will be frozen.