House of Commons Hansard #121 of the 37th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was c-35.

Topics

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Philip Mayfield Canadian Alliance Cariboo—Chilcotin, BC

Jail them secretly.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Rob Anders Canadian Alliance Calgary West, AB

That is right. There are all sorts of nasty things the government is willing to do in the name of anti-terrorism. However on the flip side there are at least half a dozen governments that I could count right off the tip of my fingers which have in one way or another abused diplomatic immunity over the last 20 years.

The government has chosen to open up the gates instead of going after the people who fund terrorist acts and provide travel documents and passports, visas, diplomatic immunity and diplomatic pouches for the transfer of materials. It is not going after those foreign missions, consulates, embassies, diplomats and attendees that come to Canada for various conventions and who are agents of foreign governments that have funded some of these acts.

The government has chosen to open Pandora's box and allow those people greater freedoms and privileges in Canada while restricting those of its own citizens, those people who are native to this land.

I cannot tell the House how frustrating it is to be an opposition member in parliament and watch the government fumble with the whole issue of national security. For years we called on the government to do things for national security.

We called on the government to increase the size of the Canadian armed forces and to secure better equipment for the forces as it was rusting out. We called on the government to look into the matter of people coming to Canada and claiming refugee status when they burn and destroy their own documents. We criticized the lack of detention and enforcement in that regard.

We called for greater police force provisions to have more police out there enforcing the law. We called on all these things ever since we first came to parliament. Even some of my colleagues who were here four years before my time called for these reforms. Yet when it came to the crunch and a terrorist crisis killed thousands of North Americans with evidence of planning and staging in Canada, the government failed us.

The government went ahead and opened the doors to those who would harm us and restricted the freedoms of those who were there to bolster us and help us. It does not make any sense.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

10:40 a.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore, NS

Madam Speaker, I listened to the remarks of my colleague across the way with regard to terrorism and the government's lack of effort in this regard. In some ways he is correct and in some ways he is wrong. I have a very simple question for him.

Yesterday an historic vote was held in the House of Commons. I know the member did not vote with the majority of his party. I believe he voted with the Bloc. The NDP voted against the bill because of the egregious errors it would commit upon all Canadians.

The leader of the Canadian Alliance stood in the House time and time again and spoke for well over an hour yesterday complaining about the faults of the bill. He then stood and voted for the bill.

Why did this member's leader and the majority of the party that he represents cry about how bad the bill and the government were and then vote for the legislation? When the rubber hit the road those members stood and voted for the legislation. I cannot believe they did that.

I give this member credit because, true to his word, he voted against it. However the majority of his party overwhelmingly denounced the bill in committee and in public and then turned around and voted for it. I would like to know why his leader did that.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

10:45 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

It is not the place of the Chair to question the relevance of the question. If the hon. member wishes to answer the question, he may do so.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

10:45 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Rob Anders Canadian Alliance Calgary West, AB

Madam Speaker, the hon. member sits with me on the national defence and veterans affairs committee. I would like to put a plug in for him and say that the government has probably downsized too many bases. I am aware that an issue near and dear to his heart is ensuring that his constituents on the good, fine base at Shearwater have the resources they need to continue their operations. I say save Shearwater.

Now that I have that out of the way I will address the member's question. The Canadian Alliance believes in free votes in this place more so than any other party in the House.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

10:45 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

10:45 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Rob Anders Canadian Alliance Calgary West, AB

I hear crying and guffawing coming across the way. I would suggest to those who are real students of democracy, free votes and parliamentary procedure to check the record to see which party of all the parties in this place has the better record in allowing free votes and allowing people to speak their minds and to speak for their constituencies as opposed to their party leaders. Our record will stand up very well.

My constituents were equally torn over this issue so I went with my conscience in terms of the concerns that I heard. Being 50:50 either way for my constituents put me in a position to allow me to do that.

I cherish the fact that the Canadian Alliance, and before it the Reform Party, laid out more concrete measures than any other party in the history of the country. The Alliance talked about allowing free votes and having a formal vote of non-confidence. In that way no government could whip its own members into voting the party line to avoid the government from falling.

There should be a formal vote of non-confidence. We put that down in black and white and ran on it in election campaigns. I wish that more people had seen fit to make that the election issue because, if that were the case, the Alliance would have been the government that truly believed in democratic and representative government.

I am proud of the record the Alliance has stood on. In that way government members would be able to vote against legislation that they did not think was good enough and which needed to be reassessed. Legislation only gets better by doing something like that. It may be a horrible process to watch and engage in for those of us who are the cogs in the wheel, but nonetheless it is a valuable exercise for the people we make laws for. For that reason having free votes and a formal vote of non-confidence so the government cannot whip people on things that should not be votes of confidence provides a good record for the Alliance. That is why I did what I did.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

10:45 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Darrel Stinson Canadian Alliance Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Madam Speaker, the hon. member mentioned what happens in committees. Opposition parties put forward amendments and the government does not seem to listen. I sat on a number of committees and I have almost come to the conclusion that decisions are made before we ever get to committee.

I believe a number of the committees are an absolute total waste of time because government members obviously know before we start in on some of these studies how they are supposed to vote. They are told how to vote and they stand by that. Would the hon. member comment on that?

The hon. member mentioned the Hughes report that was studied by a committee. Did the government pay for the Hughes report? Does the member have any knowledge of the cost?

It is like other reports. We hear the government profess to the public that it is doing a certain study. A study is brought before a committee and we hear no more about it, or we hear it will be addressed in a timely fashion. I am sick and tired of that. I am concerned about the waste of the work committee members do.

The hon. member mentioned people in government such as RCMP officers or people in other areas of government coming forward with some concerns and getting slapped or put down. This is also a real concern. People are coming forward with legitimate concerns. They follow every step by bringing concerns to their superiors. They get slapped, punished, banished and their careers are put on hold. They get fired and have no place to go.

In this day and age, in a country that is supposed to be democratic and free, why is it that we do not have whistleblower protection legislation to protect people when they have legitimate concerns? Nobody in government will listen to them until somebody's butt gets burned, especially officials high up the ladder who are gagged. Does the hon. member not believe it is time we had whistleblower protection?

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

10:50 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Rob Anders Canadian Alliance Calgary West, AB

Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his questions. I am also frustrated with how our committees work. I sat on committees with you, Madam Speaker, and remember how you were frustrated by your own government members with regard to the Elections Act. I thought it was a wise provision that you were putting in place which would allow for local fundraising without the authorization of the top down control, the Prime Minister in that respect.

That being the case, committees could work in this place. However like all things in the House of Commons they are very partisan beasts. I sometimes look to our neighbours to the south where their congressional committees have the power, and probably then some in comparison to ours, to call before them anybody in the land to give them wisdom and advice on adjudicating and making the laws of the land.

There have been times in the history of our neighbour to the south when particular impressive committee work was done. Even democrats like Robert Kennedy did good work in that regard. People laugh because they know I am probably more sympathetic to the republicans.

That being the case I believe committees could work. However they are not allowed to because of the interference by the parliamentary secretaries, the Prime Minister's Office and the people coming in from the whip's office to carefully count heads and shape things.

The hon. member wanted me to comment on the Hughes report. I do not know the actual cost. However I am sure that taxpayers, if they look into it, would know that millions of dollars were wasted by the government to put forward that report. Yet it has not followed through on its recommendations so it was a tax and spend scenario to fund something that was never used.

With regard to the RCMP or soldiers I know some of my colleagues talked with people with regard to Kananaskis or other things in their ridings. It is a shame when we do not listen to officers on the frontline. I talked to customs officials who told me they wanted more sniffer dogs and vehicle lifts so they could look underneath vehicles. They told me they needed more staff and other practical things. Yet when we asked the ministers across the way they totally denied it. I do not know how that works. They did not want to recognize there was a problem.

I believe in whistleblower protection. If somebody in the administration of the government finds a way to save money I would even give them a percentage of the money they saved as an incentive for them to find ways to save taxpayer dollars.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

10:55 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

Unfortunately the time has expired for questions and comments but I would ask the House if there is unanimous consent for one question and a quick answer because I did not see the hon. member. Is there unanimous consent?

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

10:55 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

10:55 a.m.

Some hon. members

No.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

10:55 a.m.

NDP

Dick Proctor NDP Palliser, SK

Madam Speaker, these are the games that get played around here. I am pleased to rise today to speak in opposition to Bill C-35. This is a bill that purports to amend the Foreign Missions and International Organizations Act and to modernize the privileges and immunities regime. It is supposed to allow Canada to comply with its existing commitments under international treaties and to respond to recent developments in international law.

We are told its enactment would correct the deficiency in the existing statutory definition of international organization and provide the RCMP with primary responsibility to ensure security for the proper functioning of intergovernmental conferences. We are told this clear statutory authority would support security provisions taken by Canadian police in fulfilling the country's obligations to protect persons who have privileges and immunities under the act.

Before I get into the substance of my remarks I will comment a bit on the bill's diplomatic immunity provisions and the reference made by the member for the Alliance to the tragic incident of last January that involved Catherine MacLean and Catherine Doré.

I have never had a chance to speak in the House about this issue, but I consider myself a close personal friend of John Fryer who was the partner of Catherine MacLean. I worked with Philippe Doré who is the husband of Catherine Doré. What happened on that occasion was absolutely tragic. John Fryer and the children of Catherine MacLean know they have the full support, sympathy and understanding of myself and the members of the New Democratic Party caucus.

The fundamentals of Bill C-35 are not to protect the immorality, wrongdoing and drunken driving that happened in January last year. We ought to be primarily concerned about officials who come to Canada and receive diplomatic immunity, not about preventing protesters from getting close enough to make their case against them.

I will make reference specifically to what has happened since September 11. The government seems to be, as Naomi Klein pointed out in yesterday's Globe and Mail , ditching laws to avoid the messy street protests that started to occur in Canada in Vancouver in November 1997 and continued in Quebec City last year.

As Klein points out, civil libertarians and politicians have been duking it out over Bill C-36 since October 15. The justice minister who is responsible for the bill says the law is designed to target terrorists and terrorist groups. She insists it is not a crackdown on legitimate political activism and protest.

I welcome members to Bill C-35. It has been making its way through parliament while being downplayed by the parliamentary secretary as a housekeeping measure. On the surface all the bill does is expand the definition of an internationally protected person, those foreign dignitaries who are granted diplomatic immunity when they come to the country.

The concerns about protected persons tell only part of the story. The rest is revealed when Bill C-35 is cross referenced with several clauses in Bill C-36 that classify many actions taken against protected persons as terrorist activities. Together Bill C-35 and Bill C-36 form a one two punch that would knock out the right to protest outside international meetings that take place in Canada.

It would work like this. Bill C-35 defines internationally protected persons as “representatives of a foreign state that is a member of or participates in an international organization”. The principle is taken from the UN convention granting diplomatic immunity to politicians attending international conventions.

Members will recall that before the APEC conference in Vancouver the then Canadian foreign affairs minister Lloyd Axworthy apologized to the prime minister of Indonesia for the campaign in Canada to portray Indonesia's brutal dictator, President Suharto, as a criminal. His picture appeared on a wanted poster.

Mr. Axworthy wrote at the time that it was outrageous and excessive and not the way Canadians behaved. He assured the Indonesian prime minister that General Suharto would not suffer the indignity of being in close proximity to any protest. The subsequent RCMP crackdown on peaceful dissent at APEC led to the Hughes report which we were discussing earlier today.

The excessive use of pepper spray and rubber bullets against protesters at the free trade agreement of the Americas meeting in Quebec City in April this year further demonstrated that the RCMP can treat Canadian protesters as criminals to protect foreign officials, even officials who preside over security forces that systematically arrest, torture and kill their own protesters back home.

Our concern is that Bill C-35 would help entrench some unjust contradictions into Canadian law. The Suhartos and Pinochets of the world would be more confident than ever when deciding whether to attend international events in Canada. Bill C-35 would allow them to feel totally secure during their visits because they would know two things. First, the law would exempt them from prosecution for their crimes. Second, it would mandate the Royal Canadian Mounted Police to protect them from protesters who oppose their regimes.

Because they control their domestic security and legal systems the world's state terrorists have immunity from their own country's laws. I am concerned Bill C-35 would extend that immunity to their visits to Canada.

Ironically Bill C-35 comes at a time when the government is publicly pushing Bill C-36. We passed it yesterday and it is now in the other place. It contains sweeping new powers that may threaten the civil liberties of innocent Canadians. While giving much attention to the upcoming anti-terrorism law it seems there have been far too few references in the media to Bill C-35 that will be used to offer protection to foreign state terrorists during official visits.

I asked the parliamentary secretary if she could give examples where reciprocity had been used. One of the explanations of the need for Bill C-35 was that we needed reciprocal arrangements with other countries. The parliamentary secretary said she was unable to provide examples at the moment but would send us some.

She will have difficulty doing so. There have been no incidents in the past where Canadians were unable to attend international conferences because we did not have a law such as the one being proposed today.

I will focus a little of my remaining time on clause 5 of the bill. My colleague from Burnaby--Douglas did a thorough review of the clause in an earlier presentation at second reading of the bill. Clause 5 is a new clause that would extend unprecedented sweeping powers to the RCMP with respect to security at international meetings in Canada.

The government has told us it is only codifying existing laws. If that is the case the question is obvious: Why do we need the statute at all if would not broaden the powers but simply codify existing powers?

The hon. member for Burnaby--Douglas pointed out that the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade reviewed the bill as an extraordinary step. He said Canadians have a right to know how concerned all members at the committee including government members were about provisions of the legislation.

The report the committee submitted to the House stated that expert legal testimony it had heard:

--raised serious concerns about the adequacy and interpretive clarity of the existing language in Article 5, notably in regard to the provisions regarding the primary responsibility of the RCMP for taking measures, including the establishment of security perimeters, that are appropriate and reasonable in the circumstances--

The report also stated:

Whereas, notwithstanding the existing authority of peace officers under the common law, of the RCMP under the RCMP Act and under other statutory authority pertaining to the security of internationally protected persons, Article 5 will for the first time in statute give the RCMP explicit powers to establish security perimeters for certain conferences of an international nature;

Whereas these codified RCMP powers may affect the rights and privileges of Canadian citizens in relation to such conferences;

Whereas the testimony heard by the Committee strongly pointed towards the desirability of a broader review of the statutory authorities governing police powers in respect of future situations within Canada where security perimeters may be warranted;

The Committee urges the Government to take into account the legitimate concerns which have been expressed in regard to the drafting of Article 5 of the Bill.

As the member for Burnaby--Douglas pointed out at the time, this was a strong signal from the foreign affairs committee that clause 5 which is in many respects the heart of Bill C-35 is unacceptable.

A unanimous report from the committee said to look out because it had real reservations about the clause. The government should have listened to the committee and voted to change the bill by amending or preferably deleting the clause. Instead of doing that and sending the issue back to the House, government members stood and voted against their own colleagues on the foreign affairs committee who had voiced caution about the clause. That is a significant point.

I am concerned that the two bills taken together would give the RCMP more powers than it ever dreamed it could acquire. This could have a significant negative effect on the right of people to protest peacefully. We are on the verge of criminalizing dissent in Canada.

I will quote Alan Borovoy, a long time head of the Canadian Civil Liberties Association. Mr. Borovoy pointed out:

--to be minimally effective, a demonstration must be able to create an atmosphere of political and social tension for those whose decisions it is trying to influence. While it is appropriate to keep protestors far enough away so that they cannot physically intimidate, they must be sufficiently close in order to politically castigate.

Bill C-35 would leave wide open the question of whether that would be the case. We in the NDP caucus are opposed to the bill. The citizens of Canada need to look at Bill C-35 and Bill C-36 together. The government says it is a relatively small housekeeping amendment and not terribly significant. The proof will be in the pudding next summer when protestors go to Kananaskis to protest the G-8. At that time we will see whether peaceful protestors are able to object to what is happening with globalization or whether the security perimeter around Kananaskis will make it impossible for protestors to have their voices heard as world leaders head into the summit. That will be the test.

I think the legislation, once it is passed, as it will be by the majority, will prove that dissent is very much circumscribed in the country. I also believe that civil libertarians and people of goodwill, many of whom believe we have a very good record on civil and human rights and the ability to speak out and protest peacefully, will see those rights diminished a great deal as a result of Bills C-36 and C-35.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

11:10 a.m.

Progressive Conservative

Bill Casey Progressive Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Madam Speaker, I have one little question. The member mentioned reciprocal agreements with other countries. The parliamentary secretary also mentioned that as justification for the bill. It was explained that since other countries give us this reciprocal consideration we should give it to them.

Could the member tell me how many countries now qualify under this Canadian expanded immunity and how many countries grant us the same immunity? The member probably cannot. I had wanted to ask the parliamentary secretary but I did not have time so I thought I would ask the member as he had mentioned it earlier.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

11:10 a.m.

NDP

Dick Proctor NDP Palliser, SK

Madam Speaker, the member for Cumberland--Colchester is absolutely right, I cannot answer it. However I think the record will show that the parliamentary secretary was unable to answer that question earlier when I asked if she could give examples. I did not ask for specific numbers but I did ask for examples of countries where Canada had been unable to attend an international conference because we did not have this reciprocal arrangement.

I am afraid I cannot answer the member's question at this time because it has not been given to me by the government side.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Aileen Carroll Liberal Barrie—Simcoe—Bradford, ON

Madam Speaker, I better understand the question that was asked by both members of the opposition.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

11:10 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

Does the hon. parliamentary secretary have an answer?

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Aileen Carroll Liberal Barrie—Simcoe—Bradford, ON

Madam Speaker, with the patience and perseverance of the member for Wild Rose, I want to say that my understanding was that the member was querying as to whether there was reciprocity. Now I understand the question to be whether a Canadian member of a delegation has ever been turned away from a conference in another country.

While I cannot give the member an answer, yes, this particular person was, nor can I--

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

11:10 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

Unfortunately, that is not a point of order. It is a point of debate. We are in questions and comments. If the hon. parliamentary secretary wants to get up on questions and comments I will recognize her.

However, I will recognize another member. The hon. member for Ancaster--Dundas--Flamborough--Aldershot.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

John Bryden Liberal Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot, ON

Madam Speaker, Bills C-36 and C-35 say nothing about security perimeters. However, what they indeed do is define additional powers, as the member who spoke just said, to the RCMP.

I would submit to that member that what choice do we have? These are not peaceful protests we are dealing with. We are dealing with violent protests and it becomes increasingly dangerous to have any kind of international conference. Only last week, just 100 yards from my very office on Parliament Hill, peaceful protesters wearing masks smashed through the windows of a McDonald's restaurant. My staff were scared and they phoned me up.

So, Madam Speaker, I submit to the member that as long as protesters are allowed to wear masks, as long as they use violence and as long as there is a chance that terrorists may be infiltrating such protesters wearing masks, I do not know what choice we have but to give the RCMP reasonable powers to bring peace to protests.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Dick Proctor NDP Palliser, SK

Madam Speaker, there is no one in our caucus who supports the kind of activities the member described of smashing windows. At the same time I think the member is only telling half of the story.

What happened on the day subsequent, as I understand it, and I was not at that demonstration, was that some 41 people who were not wearing masks were arrested and detained by police.

As we read in the media, the police went into the crowd and picked out certain individuals who were dressed in black because it is an arresting colour, as was pointed out. We saw television images of police dogs biting protestors who were on the ground. A complaint was filed by a CBC reporter who was clubbed by a baton.

What the individual is asking is, what choice do we have? The answer is that Canadians will have no choice. Peaceful protestors will be far away from Kananaskis. They will be lucky if they are in Calgary because of the security perimeter that will be enforced by the RCMP next summer.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

11:15 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Myron Thompson Canadian Alliance Wild Rose, AB

Madam Speaker, maybe the hon. member who just spoke could clear my head about something that has really been bothering me about that particular party.

I understand what he is saying with regard to the bill. I believe in being able to protest peacefully as much as possible. Part of Kananaskis is in my riding and when we hear about fires being started and the damage and trashing that can happen, we become afraid. I think the member finds any police force a little offensive.

However, what really bothers me about that particular party is that while it condemns the efforts and methods used to stop certain activities from taking place, why was it and that member so supportive of the wheat board handcuffing farmers, hauling them off in chains and throwing them in jail? Do not tell me this did not happen because I was there to witness it. Farmers were charged and arrested for trying to sell their own crops while trying to make a point. That party absolutely supported these people being arrested and charged and yet members of that party are doers of all good. I do not understand where the party is coming from.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Dick Proctor NDP Palliser, SK

Madam Speaker, with respect to the member for Wild Rose, I think the member would look in vain to find any criticism, support, succour or comfort that we ever gave to the Government of Canada for arresting and putting in jail the farmers for justice. That does not mean we are not strong supporters of the Canadian Wheat Board.

I recall speaking in the House less than two weeks ago to the private member's bill put forward by the member for Yorkton--Melville where I specifically said that while we support the Canadian Wheat Board, we certainly never supported the idea that people who were taking grain across the line into the United States should be handcuffed, put in leg irons, put in jail and all the rest of it. The member for Wild Rose should know that is on the record.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore, NS

Madam Speaker, we watched in horror what the RCMP did to protestors at the APEC conference. We heard Mr. Stewart say “All right, folks, my job is to clear out of it.” Without giving people a chance to get off their feet and move, he very quickly peppered sprayed them with about eight seconds' notice.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

John Bryden Liberal Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot, ON

What about the jerks with crowbars who smashed the windows at McDonald's?