Debates of March 14th, 2001

The Economy

[Ted White, Canadian Alliance, North Vancouver, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it is obvious that the finance minister does not care about the value of the dollar. He does not care if it drops to 50 cents U.S.

For ministers who have their assets offshore this may not be a problem, but for the seniors in our country who have to travel to the United States, for importers and for other Canadians who travel, this erosion of their wealth is very important. How could the minister justify this lack of concern about the plunge in our currency?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, let us look at the fundamentals of the Canadian economy.

As I was saying before I was so rudely interrupted, the fact is that Canada has had the strongest job growth of any G-7 country over the last four years.

The fact is that Canada is expected to have the highest growth of any G-7 country this year.

The fact is that over the course of the last decade we have become one of the major high tech economies in the world.

The fact is that because of the changes brought in by this government, we will ride through the U.S. downturn better than any other G-7 country.

Shipbuilding

[Antoine Dubé, Bloc, Lévis-Et-Chutes-De-La-Chaudière, QC]

Mr. Speaker, on Monday, the National Post reported that the Minister of Industry was preparing to announce federal financial support for the shipbuilding industry.

Are we to understand that the minister managed to overcome the opposition of some of his colleagues regarding the need for a shipbuilding policy, as the Bloc Quebecois has been asking for several years?

[Brian Tobin, Liberal, Minister of Industry]

Mr. Speaker, the report of the committee, which is looking into the question of how to modernize and make more efficient and competitive shipbuilding in Canada, is not yet filed.

However, I assure the member that every member on this side of the House is interested in seeing shipbuilding succeed in Canada, seeing shipbuilding workers put back to work and seeing Canada maintain its great shipbuilding tradition.

Presence In Gallery

[The Speaker]

I draw the attention of hon. members to the presence in the gallery of Mr. Grigoris Niotis, Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Hellenic Republic of Greece.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear.

Interparliamentary Delegations

[Paddy Torsney, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 34(1) I have the honour to table in the House, in both official languages, the report of the Canadian group of Interparliamentary Union which represented Canada at the 104th interparliamentary conference, held at Jakarta, Indonesia, from October 12 to October 21, 2000.

Committees Of The House

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present the sixth report of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs regarding the selection of votable items. In accordance with Standing Order 92, this report is deemed adopted on presentation.

I also have the honour to present the seventh report of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs regarding the membership of some committees. If the House gives its consent, I intend to move concurrence in the seventh report later this day.

[John Williams, Canadian Alliance, St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present, in both official languages, the first report of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts regarding reports presented to the House in the course of the second session of the 36th parliament.

Pursuant to Standing Order 109 of the House of Commons, the committee requests that the government table a comprehensive response to the following reports:

The 11th report, Canada infrastructure works program, phase 2 and follow up phase 1 audit; the 12th report, sole source contracting for professional services using advanced contract award notices; the 14th report, Indian and Northern Affairs Canada, elementary and secondary education; the 15th report, Canada Customs and Revenue Agency and Department of Finance, handling tax credits, claims for scientific research and development; and the 16th report, Citizenship and Immigration Canada, the economic component of the Canadian immigration program.

[Werner Schmidt, Canadian Alliance, Kelowna, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present the first report of the Standing Joint Committee on Scrutiny of Regulations.

Criminal Law Amendment Act, 2001

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

moved for leave to introduce Bill C-15, an act to amend the Criminal Code and to amend other acts.

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)

Privilege

[Vic Toews, Canadian Alliance, Provencher, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege in regard to the Department of Justice briefing the media on a bill intended for the House before and at the exclusion of members of parliament and their staff.

My question of privilege will argue that the Minister of Justice and her department are in contempt of parliament since they have brought the authority and dignity of the House into question. The government and her department made a mockery of the parliamentary system and members of parliament.

Erskine May describes contempt as:

—any act or omission which obstructs or impedes either House of Parliament in the performance of its functions, or which obstructs or impedes any Member or officer of such House in the discharge of his duty, or which has a tendency, directly or indirectly, to produce such results may be treated as a contempt even though there is no precedent of the offence.

I want to tell the House what has happened. The Liberal government and the Minister of Justice gave a briefing on an omnibus bill today at 11.45 am. It is the bill that the Minister of Justice just introduced to the House. I am bringing this motion at the quickest and most appropriate time.

I received a copy of the bill when I came into question period today. It is a bill that is 78 pages long. The Liberal government gave a briefing and denied members of parliament and their staff access to the briefing. The only ones allowed into the briefing session were members of the media.

This is not simply a small bill. It contains 78 pages. I had an opportunity to quickly glance through it when I came into the House. I could not even tell members of the media who were calling my office what my reaction was to the bill.

The issue is not the embarrassment it has caused to me or the members of the opposition, it is the embarrassment it has caused the House. It is an embarrassment for the people of Canada who voted to send members to the House of Commons so they could be consulted and have an input. We have been denied even a most basic briefing.

According to the minister it is not the opposition she has to convince, it is the media. She gives the media the appropriate spin and we are left in the dark. We have been embarrassed and the House has been embarrassed. I am angered and disgusted by this process.

I am a novice in the House of parliament but I have also served in legislatures. I was also a crown counsel for the Manitoba government for years. I advised governments on matters. I advised the premier of Manitoba in 1990 on the Meech Lake accord. I am not a novice when it comes to dealing with government matters and government issues and the basic respect that each member here deserves.

We were shut out of a briefing and treated like beggars at the door waiting for leftovers. We did not even get a news release. I do not know if members of the press got a news release. I received 78 pages of a bill that is not just on one matter.

One of the Liberal members across the way just asked me if I could read. Let me say what the bill includes because it is important to all members of the House. It says “secret until introduced in parliament”. That secrecy seems to only apply to the people here. We are the ones who are being shrouded from the truth. The secret is being kept from us. The media were briefed and had full access to the bill.

Some may ask whether I can read. Being a lawyer and having served government I should be able to easily and quickly read 78 pages. With all due respect, let me tell you, Mr. Speaker, members of the House and the people of Canada what the bill includes.

“This enactment amends the Criminal Code”. This is the summary of what is printed in the bill so I assume it is the truth. I do not know if it is the truth because I have not had a chance to read it. However, let us assume it is the truth based on what the minister has put in the bill and what she has shared with the media but not with members of the House because it is a big secret from us.

I will begin again. The summary states:

The enactment amends the Criminal Code by (a) adding offences and other measures that provide additional protection to children from sexual exploitation, including sexual exploitation involving the use of the Internet;

This is a huge issue. However, before I attended the House, members of the press were asking me what I had to say about the issue. I had nothing to say because it was a secret. It was kept secret from everybody in the House. All of Canada knows, the moment it is introduced the Liberal's spin on the document is already out on the airwaves through the media. This is disgusting. It is an absolute subordination of the powers of each member, as well as your powers, Mr. Speaker, and those of the House.

It does not end there. The minister will say that we have been talking about this for a long time and that it was high time the legislation was introduced. Absolutely, it is high time that it is introduced, but that is one issue. The next issue is increasing the maximum penalty for criminal harassment. If that is in fact what it says, I applaud that. The Manitoba government, when I was a member, worked very hard to convince the Liberal government to take steps in that respect.

Now we find out about it in a secret document that we cannot release until it is introduced in parliament. Who knew about it before I did, before you did, Mr. Speaker, and before every member of the House? It was the media, the new opposition. The government does not care about the elected voices of people. It has insulted every single member in the House, including government members on the opposite side. We have all been insulted by this piece of trickery.

I will continue on with what the bill contains. It says:

(c) Making home invasions in aggravating circumstances for sentencing purposes;

Yes, we did ask for this but can we not discuss it beforehand? Could we at least get a briefing two hours before? Could we have the decency and the courtesy that was extended to members of the media but not to us?

[The Speaker]

Order, please. The hon. member has a point but I think going through every clause of the bill and telling us that the message is the same is perhaps unnecessary.

The member has a point and he has made his point. If he has more to contribute on the question of privilege, I would like to hear him, but I would rather not hear about the contents of the bill, which, with great respect—and I think the hon. member would agree with me on this point—are irrelevant to whether or not the privileges of the House have been breached.

If I understood the member correctly, his point was whether the bill was released before its introduction in the House. If he would stick to that point, I think it would be more helpful to the Chair.

[Vic Toews, Canadian Alliance, Provencher, MB]

I appreciate the direction, Mr. Speaker, but I thought it was important not to quote the clauses of the bill but to give a brief summary of the bill. I was not quoting clause by clause. I was trying to impress upon you, Mr. Speaker, that this is not a small bill, that this is not a housekeeping bill, that this is a substantive bill to which we, as members of parliament, were denied access. We did not even have two hours. We were not shown the courtesy that was given to the media.

However, Mr. Speaker, I appreciate your direction and I will move on.

In the last parliament, Speaker Parent issued a warning to this very same government for a similar offence. The Minister of Justice was a member of the government and, despite the clear admonition from the Speaker, the same trick is being played again on members of the House. On November 6, 1997, the Speaker said:

The Chair acknowledges that this matter is a matter of potential importance since it touches the role of members as legislators, a role which should not be trivialized. It is from this perspective that the actions of the Department are of some concern. The dismissive view of the legislative process, repeated often enough, makes a mockery of our parliamentary conventions and practices. I trust that today's decision at this early stage of the 36th Parliament will not be forgotten by the minister and his officials and that the department and agencies will be guided by it.

Despite the warning, the government went on to announce to the people of China that a Canada-China interparliamentary group had been created. There was no such group created at the time. The government briefed a foreign country before it briefed its own members.

The naming of the head of the Canadian millennium scholarship foundation before there was legislation setting up the foundation is another example. There were many other cases in the last parliament.

If the House is to function with authority and dignity then it must be respected, especially by the executive. Every elected member is not the servant of the executive. The executive is the servant of each and every elected member. When a member of the executive thwarts the parliamentary process they deny the rights and privileges of each member and destroy the authority of the House. If the House is to function with authority and dignity then it must be respected, especially by the executive. They are responsible to parliament, not to the media.

On page 63 of Erskine May it states that ministers have a duty to parliament to account, that ministers should be as open as possible with parliament. Refusing to provide information and refusing to allow us to participate in the briefing when members of the media are present is not in the public interest. The government has been warned enough. It is time the House took action and protected itself from this happening again.

Mr. Speaker, when you were elected these were the issues that were being discussed. Members from both sides of the House voted for you. There was a real recognition that the executive needed to understand that each and every backbencher and opposition member deserved respect. Mr. Speaker, you were entrusted with our belief that you would carry out that obligation and restore the dignity that the House deserves.

The executive has not only slapped us in the face, but it has slapped you, Mr. Speaker, and the people of Canada in the face. I know that other members wish to speak on the matter.

I would ask you, Mr. Speaker, to rule the matter to be a prima facie question of privilege, at which time I would be prepared to move the appropriate motion.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, exaggerating points seldom make the argument any better. What we have before us is, in large measure, two bills of the last session which have been made omnibus and tabled in the House.

The hon. member went into a long diatribe that I listened to patiently even though there was plenty of reason to be impatient given the nonsense that we were hearing. I wish the hon. member would take the time to listen to what I have to say, but obviously he does not intend to do so at this point.

The bill as presented today in the House is almost the same as two bills from the previous parliament. Reciting the titles of every clause will not change anything.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

Order, please. The House is entitled to hear the arguments on all sides. I realize there is disagreement on the issue but the Chair would like to hear the different points of view.

It is important for all points of view to be heard on such a matter, and the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons has the floor.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I think we heard the deputy House leader of the party across saying that the opposition has the right to speak but that the other side of the House has less rights. I think we just heard the official position of that particular party in that regard.

Let us correct the inaccuracies made in the House earlier. First, as far as I know and the Minister of Justice knows at this point, the media did not receive a copy of the bill prior to introduction. The only people who received a copy of the bill before the introduction were opposition critics. They received a copy an hour and fifteen minutes ahead of time for courtesy reasons. The bill, as I said, was not released to anyone.

The Chair will know that embargo briefings are not something that were recently invented. Embargo briefings, without documents, have been held in the past on a number of issues. It is true that an embargo briefing was provided to the media earlier today. The information given to me was that no release of any document or any bill was given to anyone else. Any briefing given to the media was under embargo. No documents were given.

As I said previously, the opposition critics were provided a copy of the bill one hour and fifteen minutes ahead of the introduction. Even though the rules of the House, and the Speaker knows them far better than I, do not require that such is done but it was done any way.

I do not believe there was any attempt to breach anything. If anyone has breached the embargo, I am willing to look into that. If that means that in the future when people do breach embargoes that it should be recognized in the way things are done around here, then we would be willing to look at that as well.

However, that is not the same as to say that the Minister of Justice has committed an act of contempt or any other such issue against the House, nor does it mean that the hon. member across has a prima facie case of privilege against the House. That is a different proposition altogether.

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to be able to speak on this matter, since this is not the first time the same thing has happened in the Justice Department.

The minister need not wonder why sometimes bills get off on the wrong foot. That is the way things are done, even by the Minister of Justice.

How do they justify, even if it was only a briefing, even if the government did not hand out the entire text to the journalists—which I doubt, and we will look into this—how is it that the journalists knew all the ins and outs of this bill before the parliamentarians, before those who are elected to represent the public?

Knowing the officials of the Department of Justice as I do, in the case of the Young Offenders Act, I question the accuracy of the information. What the minister did today is very serious, and what she did in the past with other extremely important bills is also. It is not even a matter of finding out whether the bill is complex or not, because we can all read.

The Minister of Justice was very kind. She gave me the bill as she came into the House at 2.00 p.m. for Oral Question Period. It was as if I, a member of the opposition, did not have Oral Question Period, as if it was not important for me to follow what went on in it and I had to read between 79 and 85 pages of the minister's text to keep up with the journalists at 3.00 p.m. That makes no sense. It is treating the opposition members, in fact all members with disdain.

[An hon. member]

And the House as well.

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

And, as my colleague has said, treating the House with disdain as well. Mr. Speaker, you should intervene to put an end to the way the Department of Justice is operating.

There is a small example in the case of the Young Offenders Act worth recalling, where everything went off the rails following a briefing of journalists. The officials had failed to give out the entire text of the Young Offenders Act. The government talked about flexibility, when in fact there was none. On that occasion, when the officials did not give journalists a copy of the text, how could the journalists leave with all the information? They left with the information the Department of Justice wanted them to have.

As things stand, as a member of the opposition and critic for justice issues, I cannot even properly inform these journalists because the government did not give me the documents on time. What was so urgent? Perhaps there is an urgent matter. Why was the Minister of Justice in such a hurry to introduce this bill today, before members of parliament had a chance to look at it?

We are well aware, and the Chair even more so, that there are days during the week when bills can be introduced, when the minister could introduce her bill, in the morning, around 10 a.m., as she did today. She could also have met the media in the morning, at 11 a.m., like she did this morning. But why did she act differently? Perhaps it was to engage in politics, to catch the opposition with its pants down, or whatever.

Perhaps it was to not give the media the appropriate information at the appropriate time, so as to throw them off track. The minister need not wonder why her department is having problems. It is simply because her department's way of operating is not right and shows contempt for members of parliament.

Mr. Speaker, in order to prevent another such mess, I am asking you very sincerely—because I know that you have great qualities and broad experience as a parliamentarian—to not let this practice go on at the Department of Justice or at any other department. You must take action because you care a lot about the work of the members of this House and you want to ensure that they have the necessary tools to carry out their duties as parliamentarians, properly and in a timely fashion.

Mr. Speaker, I am asking you very sincerely to take action so that the Minister of Justice stops showing contempt for members and the House, as she has been doing since assuming her responsibilities.

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, unfortunately this is the second day in a row on which we have had to rise on points of order or privilege having to do with ministers doing things outside the House that either should be done in here or should be done first in here.

I appeal to your sense of history, Mr. Speaker, and your place in it. When the history of parliament is written, and when the history of this parliament is incorporated into that longer history of parliament, will this be the parliament in which the long, slow but steady decline of parliament is arrested? Or, will it be just one more parliament in which there is a long, slow and steady decline of parliament into a more and more irrelevant chamber? Will more and more things continue to happen outside parliament, either in the press gallery or in briefings that could not be attended by members of parliament or whatever the case may be?

The government House leader did his best in a bad situation. Knowing what I think I know about him, I cannot believe he thinks this was the appropriate way to proceed. It is his job to defend the indefensible on occasion, and I suppose he did the best with what he had at his disposal.

Whether or not the bill represents an amalgamation of two bills that existed in the last parliament, even if they are identical the fact is that the media would come to know they were identical before we came to know they were identical. They are not identical anyway because some new things have been added.

It was a pretty pathetic defence of what went on. The Minister of Justice indeed showed contempt for members by giving any kind of briefing. It does not matter that it was an embargo briefing.

Let us put on our imagination cap. Let us imagine a political culture in which the House of Commons is the centre of the political life of a nation and a new piece of legislation in the justice area is coming forward. Perhaps it is even an amalgamation of bills that died in the previous parliament.

What would happen in that imaginary world? The Minister of Justice would come into the House of Commons and table the bill. Members of parliament would be given a copy. Perhaps the critics might be given a courtesy copy earlier, but that would not matter so much if parliament were getting the copy first.

The media might then have to actually listen to the debate in parliament about the bill. What a novel idea. They might have to say that if they are to find out what people think about the bill they will have to come into the House of Commons and listen to members of parliament. God forbid they would not be spoon fed at secretive briefings by spin doctors in the minister's department. Let us imagine the wonderful fantasy I have just laid out.

At one time that was probably real life around here. Now it is just a fading dream, a dream that gets more distant and more unreal from parliament to parliament.

I appeal to you, Mr. Speaker. Only you, by using the powers vested in you in the chair in terms of moral suasion, procedural decisions and procedural rulings, can stop this slide into total irrelevancy if you choose. It is on occasions such as this one, by virtue of what you say, that you can either contribute to that or not. I urge you to stop the slide.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to add my voice and my dismay to what has occurred here as well.

The hon. member for Provencher has outlined quite clearly what has happened but I would add something. I believe it goes back even further than this morning's briefings. I left the House of Commons yesterday after question period and was asked very specific questions about this omnibus legislation by a CBC reporter from Radio-Canada.

This highlights again the absolute contempt and disregard the government has for this place as being the forum, the speaking point and the stepping off point from which legislation is announced. Major announcements should be made in this chamber. As the hon. member for Winnipeg—Transcona has clearly set out, that should not be so unattainable. That should not be so beyond the realm of possibility.

Opposition members in this parliament, the last parliament and the previous parliament have become all too familiar with receiving the back of the cabinet's hand, particularly from the Department of Justice which has an army of administrators and obviously some very effective spin doctors who like to float these ideas out to gauge public opinion. We know that is in keeping with the Liberal way, to govern by polls and make sure everything is okay before they step in any direction.

This takes it to another level. It takes it to the direct contempt the government has for opposition members to be involved in the process at all. By engaging with the media first it is able to have the clear advantage of getting its message out first. By not informing members at all until 24 hours later, even 5 or 6 hours later, it obviously has the upper hand.

The government knows and is familiar with the information in any event. It does not need this advantage. To refer to the comments of the House leader for the New Democratic Party, if the announcements are made in the House the media will come.

Mr. Speaker, you have been around long enough to know that the media will come. They will report on what takes place here. The Department of Justice does not have to go to them. It does not need to seek out the media to ensure its message is heard. It has ample opportunity to do so in the foyer. It can go to the press gallery after it has shown the proper respect for members of the House.

The minister shrugs her shoulders and says that they tried, that they did their best. That is not good enough.

I know you are most familiar and most attached to the Marleau and Montpetit publication, Mr. Speaker. With reference to breaches of privilege, I refer the Chair to page 67 where it talks about the range of contempt that can exist. It states:

Just as it is not possible to categorize or to delineate what may fall under the definition of contempt, it is not even possible to categorize the “severity” of contempt. Contempts may vary greatly in their gravity; matters ranging from minor breaches of decorum to grave attacks against the authority of Parliament may be considered as contempts.

That is footnoted at 91 on page 67. On the previous page again it refers to the types of contempt and the privileges of the Chamber. Mr. Speaker, you have been a long serving member of the House. You know that members want to engage directly with ministers. They want to have an opportunity to partake in what is their duty, what they have been sent here to do. That is on occasion to criticize the government. That is on occasion to improve legislation. That is also on occasion, a perhaps more modern responsibility, to engage with the media on the message, on the legislation or on the issue of the day.

With what has happened here, members have been denied that right. Members have been denied the ability to speak directly to information. I was asked specifics about a bill that I had not seen. Clearly that reporter had received some specifics.

It does not take Sherlock Holmes and a fleet of detectives to figure out that the information came from one source, the Department of Justice. That is wrong. It is absolutely inexcusable that information is leaked out of the department and given to reporters who can then assail members of the opposition as they leave the Chamber and ask them to comment on something they have not seen.

The minister must take responsibility for this. It goes to the broader issue of the absolute melting away of ministerial responsibility that we have seen in the government's administration. Heaven forbid that a minister would stand to apologize to all members for what happened in the department, to agree to find out what happened, or to give assurances that it will not happen again and to try harder. It has never happened. The government refuses to take responsibility.

[The Speaker]

I know the hon. member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough was trying to be helpful to the Chair but there are a lot of hon. members who could go on at length on the subject he has raised.

I would like to deal with the question of privilege that has been raised and that is this bill. If we stick to that, I think I am getting to the point where I will have heard the points to be made on this and would like to get on.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I will take that advice to heart and try to stay more directly on the point. To that point, Mr. Speaker, you would be very aware of the range of actions, the way in which you can respond, that is available to the Chair.

I again refer to Montpetit and Marleau at page 69 where it states:

The reluctance to invoke the House's authority to reprimand, admonish or imprison anyone found to have trampled its dignity or authority and that of its Members appears to have become a near constant feature of the Canadian approach to privilege.

This goes to another point. There has to be a line drawn in the sand. There obviously has to be another message sent. There has to be another shot across the bow of the government, similar to what happened in the last parliament.

This is the second occasion in two days. In fact, there were two occasions yesterday, not one, where the government chose to make announcements outside the House and then come in and parrot those same remarks, which shows nothing but contempt for the members present. We know that this is a partisan administration, but this has to be the Chamber where this information is exchanged, first and foremost.

In your authority and your wisdom, Mr. Speaker, I would ask you to look at this serious breach of privilege and to act, to at the very least respond to the government, to take it under advisement, to look at precedent, because this slippery slope we are on is clearly adding to the impression of the Canadian population that this Chamber is becoming irrelevant. That should be cause for all members to sit up and take notice. If this Chamber is further diminished in its usefulness, we are all in serious trouble.

I ask you, Mr. Speaker, to take the hon. member for Provencher's question of privilege very seriously. I know that you will. I know you have great respect for this Chamber and for the privileges of members present. You, Mr. Speaker, are the protector of all members. I would suggest that quite clearly some members, mainly members of the opposition and possibly members of the backbench of the Liberal government, have been completely denied their rights and privileges by virtue of what has occurred out of the Department of Justice.