House of Commons Hansard #49 of the 37th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was elections.

Topics

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Call in the members.

And the bells having rung:

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Accordingly the vote stands deferred until next Monday at the end of government orders.

The House resumed from April 23 consideration of the motion that Bill C-24, an act to amend the Criminal Code (organized crime and law enforcement) and to make consequential amendments to other acts, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

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12:20 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Kevin Sorenson Canadian Alliance Crowfoot, AB

Mr. Speaker, it is a privilege and a pleasure to stand in the House again to debate a bill that is being brought forward. Our party commends the government for bringing forward Bill C-24.

Organized crime poses an enormous threat to Canada. It poses an enormous threat to Canada's national security and economic stability. Therefore we on this side of the House welcome Bill C-24, the subject of today's debate. It is a piece of legislation that the Canadian Alliance has been demanding for some time.

In the Canadian Alliance Party we believe we need to put in place the resources to fight crime, to fight all elements of crime. As we look at the daily papers and as we turn the television sets on, we see that organized crime is becoming more prevalent on a daily basis. In 1998 the commissioner of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Philip Murray, said:

Organized crime in Canada is now so pervasive that police have been reduced to putting out isolated fires in a blazing underworld economy.

What Philip Murray was saying was that in regard to organized crime there is a huge bonfire, with the whole land ablaze, and our police force has very limited resources to put out what we might call small brush fires.

An Ottawa Citizen article dated March 3, 1999, explained the prevalence of organized crime. It states:

Canada is particularly vulnerable to drug trafficking—the principal source of revenue for most organized crime groups—according to the Drug Analysis Section of the RCMP. Smugglers are attracted to Canada because of the low risk of arrest due to limited police resources that have stymied investigations, relatively light penalties, and our sprawling, largely unmonitored borders.

This article highlights three of the huge concerns dealing with drug trafficking as well as organized crime. The first is limited police resources. The second is light sentences. With the light sentences being handed down, people understand that crime sometimes does pay. Of course the third point is the geographic location of Canada and the fact that it has such huge, long, unmonitored borders.

International drug trafficking is an organized criminal activity that threatens democratic institutions, fuels terrorism and human rights abuses and undermines economic development. Drug trafficking is an inherently violent activity. Violence is used by involved organizations to protect turf, settle disputes and eliminate those who oppose them. Some of those who oppose them are government members, the judiciary, investigative journalists and reporters, individuals who are willing to take a stand. We all, as a joint body here, need to be willing to take a stand.

The Canadian government estimates the revenue involved. It shocked me when I heard that the amount of revenue our Canadian government estimates is in the underground illegal drug market in Canada is $7 billion to $10 billion.

The Canadian drug market is dominated by many foreign organizations. We know of many of the countries that are involved. There are Italian based organized criminals who are involved in upper echelons of the importation and distribution of many drugs. Asian based groups are active in heroin and, increasingly, in cocaine trafficking at the street retail level in Canada. Colombian based traffickers still control much of the cocaine trade in eastern and central Canada. As well, outlaw motorcycle gangs play a major role in the importation and large scale distribution of cannabis, cocaine and other chemical drugs.

Motorcycle gangs and those involved in organized crime are not in only one or two provinces. Provinces throughout this nation are now recognizing and understanding the concerns in regard to organized crime as they deal with the motorcycle gangs and especially the drug trafficking of those gangs.

Most illicit drugs arrive in Canada by aircraft, marine container or truck. More than 9 million commercial shipments enter Canada each year, 75% at land borders and the rest at international airports, marine ports, postal facilities and bonded warehouses. Approximately 1 million marine containers holding illegal drugs enter Canadian ports annually and another 200,000 enter by truck or rail after being unloaded at United States marine ports and then moved out.

In 1995, 5.2 million trucks entered Canada from the United States. Three years ago it was estimated that by the year 2000 this number would reach 6 million to 6.8 million. We have a customs inspection rate of less than 2% and we are talking about 5.2 million vehicles that are estimated to contain drugs and are crossing the border.

At least 100 tonnes of hashish, 15 to 24 tonnes of cocaine and 4 tonnes of liquid hashish are smuggled into Canada each year. Some 50% of the marijuana available in Canada is produced in Canada, but the other 50% is brought in from other countries.

The domestic production of marijuana is estimated to be at 800 tonnes. In 1994 an RCMP operation found that $10 million worth of marijuana was exported from British Columbia to the United States.

To exemplify this point I again quote from a news article, this one appeared in the Globe and Mail in April 1999, just two short years ago:

Dale Brandland, a sheriff from Washington State, testified that many marijuana growers have moved to Canada in recent years to escape harsher U.S. drug laws. U.S. police have said that organized crime groups, including the Hells Angels and various Asian gangs, are shipping the highly popular drug back into the United States, sometimes swapping it pound for pound for cocaine.

The 1998 sentiments expressed by the former commissioner of the RCMP regarding the prevalence of organized crime was recently echoed by the president of the Canadian Police Association who has said that organized crime is gaining the upper hand on law enforcement and it is time for tougher laws. Canadian Police Association president, Grant Obst, said:

Things are going out of control and it is time to do something about it. The biggest problem organized crime has is they have too much money. And our biggest problem is we do not have enough.

Regarding resources this is what the president of the Canadian Police Association said:

We are fighting a battle with a group of individuals who have it would seem an unlimited amount of dollars available to them.

The old saying goes that it takes money to make money. In Canada it takes money perhaps to be involved in organized crime and it would be very obvious that they seem to have that money.

We need to put in place resources for those individuals who are willing to fight organized crime. It is time our country takes a stand and provides them with the right resources.

Through Bill C-24 the federal government is injecting $200 million over the next five years to implement the legislation and related prosecution and law enforcement strategies. This funding is to build on the $584 million that the RCMP received in the 2000 budget to help fight organized crime.

Although the money is a welcome addition it simply is not enough. I have already discussed that the drug trafficking could be close to $10 billion per year and we are throwing $200 million more at the problem. It seems to be a drop in the bucket.

Canada's national police force cannot fulfil domestic obligations, let alone our international obligations to provide legal and police assistance in countries such as Colombia and Peru due to the previous cuts. The report on plans and priorities for the RCMP funding for 1998-99 to 2000-01 showed a continuous decline in spending for federal policing services.

The cuts affected policing services in the area of drug enforcement, customs and excise, proceeds of crime and international liaison. The cuts affected policing services in the area of drug enforcement. That is organized crime. The area of customs and excise is directly related to organized crime. The area of proceeds of crime and international liaison is also related to organized crime.

There was to be a 65% reduction of the 1996-97 funding levels for the anti-smuggling initiative despite the fact that larger sophisticated criminal organizations continue to successfully engage in the smuggling and distribution of contraband goods.

Without adequate increased funding and more highly trained skilled provincial police and RCMP officers, the bikers, the Mafia and the Asian based organized criminals will continue to have a free run and to smuggle drugs across our borders.

As we have seen in Edmonton and Calgary they will have the ability to kill innocent bystanders who are caught up in turf wars and caught up in money laundering. They will continue to intimidate and threaten. They will continue to injure and kill members of the judiciary, crime reporters, correction officers, and maybe even some day members of parliament.

I would therefore urge and recommend a significant increase in the expenditures proposed in Bill C-24. I do so with the confidence that the majority of Canadians would agree that fighting organized crime is a top priority.

A 1998 report of a national survey on organized crime and corrections in Canada revealed that Canadians support increased funding for the RCMP to combat organized crime. I will quote from page 3 of that document:

Virtually all respondents want government to spend more money to fight organized crime; in a forced-choice situation, respondents picked organized crime as a spending priority over all other proposed options except health care.

I have only scratched the surface of this most important piece of legislation. I hope to get another opportunity in the near future to speak again to this criminal law bill. Some of the other points in the bill are well worth supporting.

We need to have a concentrated effort on everything it would take to fight organized crime. Canadians want to feel safe. We want to feel safe in our homes, in our communities, in our provinces and in our country. When we look at the survey we understand why Canadians want more money for health care. They want to feel safe. They want to feel if they become ill that the resources are there to help them.

Canadians want to be safe on their streets. They want to know the Canadian government is absolutely committed to keeping communities safe. The great fear many Canadians face is the onslaught of crime. I do not mean petty crime although we want to fight that as well. They fear organized crime because it is a direct threat to our society, to the well-being and safety of our communities, and to our children and our grandchildren.

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12:35 p.m.

NDP

Bev Desjarlais NDP Churchill, MB

Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the hon. member for Crowfoot. I acknowledge there is no question the federal Liberal government has been absolutely irresponsible in its failure to properly fund social programs, the RCMP and a number of other departments and programs throughout the country. As a result, we have a very critical situation in a number of different areas.

The hon. member mentioned a number of different things such as the need for people to feel safe and to attack organized crime. The people most vulnerable to organized crime are people who are poor and living in very austere conditions. They end up buying drugs or becoming victims of the abuse that goes along with organized crime.

The Alliance Party has been absolutely brutal any time there is a suggestion that funds should go to improving housing, to people living in poverty, to improve conditions or to provide programs to help such people. His party has been absolutely brutal in attacking any kind of funding for those programs.

His party and its pressure, its constant bickering and belly aching about government expenditures, were ultimately behind the cuts in those services and in policing. It gave the government the opportunity to cut various things to make sure it had a balanced bottom line. It was his party that did that.

Did he not see the domino effect of that kind of attitude and the consequences that Canadians would feel as a result?

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12:40 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Kevin Sorenson Canadian Alliance Crowfoot, AB

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for a very good question. She suggests that when we are dealing with something as important as criminal law and fighting organized crime it comes back to a housing project or education. Perhaps we should take a look at a whole umbrella of things that have caused it.

The answer is that obviously we need to look at social concerns. We need to have social programs, but police forces are asking for the resources to fight organized crime and the New Democrat Party is saying that we need housing programs. Our party has talked about balance. We want strong legislation that would give the resources to the police forces and all people who fight crime so that they have the ability to do so.

The president of the Canadian Police Association says that the forest is ablaze and we are standing there with our squirt guns trying to put out a little bushfire. The New Democrats, I would suggest, are coming forward with the same rhetoric we hear day after day, hour after hour, of throwing another social program at the problem.

We need balance for all. Provincial and federal governments need to work together in areas of their own jurisdictions. When we are talking about justice and bills, the federal government needs to say we need social programs but we also need resources.

Some other parts of the bill I want to discuss at the next opportunity in the House deal with the application of the criminal code which we have been concerned about in the past. Certain parts of the bill would give police officers the opportunity to fight and would provide for indictable offences under the criminal code and other acts of parliament when police forces are fighting crime. It would give them the ability to go in quickly with pre-emptive strikes to fight organized crime.

Again my answer to the hon. member is that we unquestionably need social programs, but with organized crime it is not only those who are impoverished. It is not only those in organized crime who get caught up in drug trafficking and living off the avails of drugs. It is a blue collar problem. It is a problem in every area of society. Much work needs to be done internationally as well.

I was reading in the paper this past week about other governments being concerned about the war against drugs. A terrible atrocity took place, I believe in Chile or Peru or one of those countries, two governments that are very proactive. It was thought that aircraft were leaving with drugs on them and an error in judgment was made. We saw a tragedy where three or four missionaries from the United States were travelling and the plane was shot down. A mother and small child were killed.

We need to be very aware that we need to fight crime where it is. It is an unfortunate situation and circumstance, but we need to fight crime. The bill moves us in the right direction. I encourage members of the New Democratic Party to say is good legislation and they will support it.

There could be amendments to it. We would like to see more money given to the police forces, to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, but let us applaud the Liberal government when it finally brings in something for which we have been calling for years. Let us give a bit of credit and say that it is moving in the right direction. Let us all jump on board and support the bill.

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12:40 p.m.

NDP

Bev Desjarlais NDP Churchill, MB

Mr. Speaker, with regard to the member's comments, without question we must fight organized crime and we must ensure the resources are in place to deal with organized crime, but it is crucially important that we get to the root of the problem and address all the issues.

In my question to the hon. member I was suggesting that the government go beyond just looking at this issue of organized crime. The government should start putting some of the dollars needed into other areas to also help with that problem. It should not always come out with that last minute attempt to get some press and some headlines by saying it wants to keep people safe, when a lot of what it is doing is what is making it impossible for everybody to be safe.

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12:45 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Kevin Sorenson Canadian Alliance Crowfoot, AB

Mr. Speaker, this is not a war on headlines and press. This is a war on crime. Without doubt the New Democrats would suggest that we need to throw money at the problem. We need to direct money. It not just more money continually thrown at something that is going to solve the problem. It is a balanced approach to directing the moneys that are available to programs that are needed.

I agree with the member wholeheartedly that if there are social concerns we need to dwell on them. These social concerns are the root of much crime. We need to support the measures this bill would put in place, the deterrents that would fight crime.

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12:45 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC

Mr. Speaker, you know how much I have been concerned about organized crime and the fight against organized crime as the member for Hochelaga—Maisonneuve.

I have to say right off that I find this bill introduced by the Minister of Justice and her colleague, the Solicitor General of Canada, extremely positive. We will certainly have to work in committee to improve it, but I think our colleague, the member for Berthier—Montcalm and Bloc Quebecois justice critic, has also said he is relatively pleased.

I recall that in the early 1990s, we learned as parliamentarians with some stupefaction just how deep the roots of organized crime went in our societies. We were used to calling ourselves a country of law and order, where basic freedoms thrive and where there is essentially no political corruption. This remains the case and continues to be relevant.

We came to realize in the early 1990s that the real threats we faced as parliamentarians representing a challenge for the future for all of our societies included those related to organized crime.

I think members will remember that the catalyst, the event that triggered this realization, was the killing, the car bomb that went off in Hochelaga—Maisonneuve on August 9, 1995, which for the first time in the history of crime claimed an innocent victim, a young lad of 11, Daniel Desrochers.

I do not think I am wrong to say that because of this event we as politicians realized the scope of the threat of organized crime in our societies.

This was followed by action, which I and other parliamentarians joined in. Not only did politicians realize the scope of organized crime. So did the agencies responsible for law enforcement. Police forces also called for more resources.

Members will also remember that in 1997, two years after the car bombing, the House passed a bill creating the new offence of participation in a criminal organization. A new offence was added to section 467.91 of the criminal code, namely the offence of participating in a criminal organization, of gangsterism.

That bill was passed very quickly. We were fairly convinced that it would provide a useful additional tool to law enforcement bodies and police forces.

One must admit that we had underestimated the incredible adaptability to change of biker gangs.

When we think about organized crime there are two or three realities to keep in mind. The first one is that organized crime exists across Canada. There are 36 biker gangs in all the provinces. The most powerful ones are those that have ties with the Hell's Angels which have managed to set up chapters across Canada. For a long time they had been excluded from Ontario, but last year they managed to move into the Ottawa—Vanier area.

Organized crime has three features. It is a criminal organization that is motivated by the prospect of money and it is generally a transborder organization. It must be realized that organized crime is involved in the import-export business. Some conditions must exist for organized crime to prosper.

In the early 1990s, when I began to take an interest in this issue as a member of parliament, I met a number of police officers. The officer who has been the most helpful, the best trainer and the one who gave me the most judicious advice was at the time the officer in charge at the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police and the officer in charge of organized crime in the Montreal urban community police department. This officer was Pierre Sangollo, who today is on duty in the small city of Sainte-Julie.

Pierre Sangollo had told me “Never forget that in order for organized crime to proliferate, prosper and expand in a society it needs at least three conditions”. It needs a society with a minimum of wealth since organized crime gets richer through extortion, plundering, robbery and fraud. Therefore organized crime needs an environment where there is a minimum of wealth.

It needs a society where there are rapid means of communication. When we look at the strategies used by organized crime we see that its members often have contacts in the harbours, in air traffic and in areas where one can make rapid connections with various continents.

To proliferate, organized crime also needs a bureaucratized society. The Canadian charter of human rights is a positive document, in its own right. Everybody is in favour of a society where the rule of law is paramount, where everyone is equal before the law and where constitutional protections exist. I am sure parliamentarians who passed the charter of human rights in 1982 never expected there would be such obstacles to the fight against organized crime, for the charter has proved to be in certain respects an ally in the proliferation of organized crime.

I will give you an example of this. Some clauses of the charter provide that everyone has a right to full justice. Some natural justice principles are entrenched in the charter of rights. My colleague and friend, the member for Chicoutimi, knows that principles of natural justice are entrenched in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

In the early 1990s the supreme court handed down a ruling, called the Stinchcombe ruling. Under this ruling crown attorneys have to disclose all the evidence they have against the accused.

When the subcommittee of the justice committee was struck it travelled across Canada. Crown attorneys told members that a criminal investigation involving some shadowing of members of organized crime can easily cost the state, the crown, $1 million.

With the Stinchcombe ruling members can imagine the reproduction and reprography costs involved when there are tons and tons of documents by the boxful.

When I travelled to Vancouver I was shown, while the crown was preparing the trial of some members of organized crime, a room the size of the House containing full boxes of documents used by the crown to prove its case. These documents had to be copied and provided to the defence.

This had to be done because of a principle entrenched in the charter of rights. One can imagine how complicated it can be for those implementing the act to deal with such situations.

In order for organized crime to prosper a certain number of conditions are required: a bureaucratized state where there are constitutional guarantees for all, a society where routes allow transborder trade, and a society which is bureaucratized and often acts as an ally of members of organized crime.

In spite of all this, in 1997 we passed it in good faith. I remember that the five parties in the House at the time were unanimous. We passed the bill in less than one week at all stages. In committee everyone worked in good faith; everyone acted quickly.

We had with Bill C-95 a new tool that we thought would be effective in the fight against organized crime. What was that tool? It was a definition in the criminal code creating an infraction for gangsterism. When five people were convicted of a crime punishable by a five year term in prison they were considered to be a gang. To take part in a gang crime, to take part in its money making schemes and to commit a crime for gang members was punishable by a 14 year prison sentence.

We were convinced that with this tool, Bill C-95, we could bring down the heads of organized crime. In 1995 there were 36 biker gangs: Hell's Angels, Rock Machine, the Outriders and so one. There were 35 of them across Canada. Believe it or not, in five years, with Bill C-95, we have been able to press charges in only three cases.

Between 1995 and 2000 no more than three trials in all of Canada were conducted on the basis of Bill C-95 and the new infraction in the criminal code.

Why were we not able to bring the leaders of organized crime to justice? Because organized crime is smart. Organized crime has means. Organized crime is rich and has a formidable capacity to adapt.

What did the leaders of organized crime do? They set their various groups up as satellites. The Hell's Angels created affiliate clubs: the Spartiates and the Nomades, to name them. These affiliates recruited young people without records, people who had not in the previous five years committed an offence punishable by five years' imprisonment and who could not therefore be brought before the courts.

This is why the crown prosecutors told us “The tool you gave us with Bill C-95 does not work, and the definition of organized crime has to be changed”.

I would like to give an example of how ineffective the tool we adopted was. I have to say that the government did not drag its feet with respect to organized crime. There are at least six laws that were amended, including the proceeds of crime legislation, the Witness Protection Act, and the law that permits shadowing and setting up storefronts legally. As lawmakers we have been extremely busy with legislation on organized crime. It has not been a partisan issue in recent years.

I have a number of examples. Dominic Tozzi, one of the greatest money launderers ever caught in Canada, got out of prison two years after being sentenced to 10 years in penitentiary for laundering $27.2 million. Dominic Tozzi laundered $27.2 million. He was sentenced by a court of law to 10 years in prison, but with the applicable rules of law he was released after two years.

Antonio Volpato, one of the major figures in the Montreal Mafia, was released after serving one year of his sentence instead of six. The sentence arose from a charge of plotting to import 180 kilos of cocaine. It is rather a lot in terms of an offence.

There is also Joseph Lagana, a former lawyer and financial adviser to the mafia who served two and a half years of a 13 year sentence for importing 558 kilos of cocaine and laundering $47.4 million.

Even after passing Bill C-95 and amending six acts recently, there have been situations involving known members of organized crime. We are not dealing with young offenders subject to the Young Offenders Act but rather known criminals capable of laundering $47 million with the support of a huge network.

These are all challenges we had to overcome in order to fight organized crime. I am sure members all have in their ridings, and there may even be some in the gallery today, people who think it is easy to crack down on criminal organizations. As parliamentarians we now know that it is extremely hard and that we need much more powerful tools than the ones we have now.

Faced with this problem the justice minister, with whom I regularly train in the gym, introduced a bill that would change the definition of organized crime slightly. The organized crime offence will be much easier to prove in court. It will no longer be necessary to have five people who have committed punishable offences in the last five years. Organized crime and the related offence of gangsterism are now defined as participating in or contributing to any activity that helps a criminal organization achieve its objectives.

It is also provided that a well known leader of a criminal organization like Mom Boucher is liable to life imprisonment. This is interesting. For a long time that was the problem. We were able to convict members of criminal organizations but not their leaders.

With the proposed amendment to Bill C-24 this should be much easier to do.

I will conclude by pointing out another positive aspect of the bill. The notion of offence related property will be broadened so that the proceeds of crime money laundering act will be used a lot more. This is another very positive aspect of the bill.

In conclusion, every citizen must feel concerned by the issue of organized crime. Organized crime affects all communities. It does not affect only poor communities.

I believe that Bill C-24, which can be improved on in committee, is an excellent piece of legislation. I will be pleased to work with the hon. member for Berthier—Montcalm and with members from all parties to improve this bill in committee between now and the month of June.

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1:05 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Is the House ready for the question?

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1:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Question.

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1:05 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

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1:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

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1:05 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I declare the motion carried. Accordingly the bill stands referred to the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

(Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to a committee)

The House resumed from April 25 consideration of the motion that Bill C-3, an act to amend the Eldorado Nuclear Limited Reorganization and Divestiture Act and the Petro-Canada Public Participation Act, be read the third time and passed.

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April 26th, 2001 / 1:05 p.m.

NDP

Bev Desjarlais NDP Churchill, MB

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak on Bill C-3, an act to amend the Eldorado Nuclear Limited Reorganization and Divestiture Act and the Petro-Canada Public Participation Act.

I do not think there has been any doubt where the New Democratic Party is on the bill. It was indicated yesterday by speakers from our party that we intend to oppose the bill.

I just want to give a bit of a summary for Canadians who are listening to what is happening in the House. I am pleased to indicate that when I go around my riding there are a number of people who watch what goes on in the House, so it is important that we take the time to have some discussion in debate and to maybe let Canadians know exactly what is entailed in the different bills that come before the House.

The bill relates to the mandatory provisions in the articles of Cameco Corporation, formerly Eldorado Nuclear Limited and Petro-Canada. Bill C-3 was first introduced in the 36th parliament as Bill C-39 and subsequently died on the order paper with the dissolution of parliament in the fall of 2000 for that wonderful election time.

The enactment provides that articles of Cameco Corporation will have to contain a 15% individual non-resident share ownership limit for voting shares, as well as a cap on aggregate non-resident share ownership voting rights of 25%. It stipulates that the articles of Petro-Canada will have to be amended to allow for a 20% individual share ownership limit, while the aggregate non-resident share ownership limits will be eliminated.

In addition, the prohibition of the sale, transfer or disposal of all or substantially all of Petro-Canada's upstream and downstream assets will be replaced with a similar prohibition on the sale, transfer or disposal of all or substantially all of its assets without distinguishing between the upstream and downstream sectors of the activity.

I am sure that left a lot of people out there guessing just what the heck we were talking about. The bottom line is that once again it is the sell off of Canadian resources to foreign companies with no other party in the House speaking out against it except the New Democratic Party.

Yesterday the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Natural Resources made some comments about it not being a big worry because there was only a certain percentage of foreign shares in Petro-Canada. Even though it could be as high as 20%, there are a mere 6% or thereabouts that are under foreign shares. We are going to open the door wide and say that we are for sale.

Petro-Canada, the last hold on any kind of control over that energy resource in Canada, is up for sale. We are going to throw it out on the open market. This is the last opportunity for any kind of control, as limited as it is, because the previous federal governments put it up for sale like they did with so many of our other very important national programs.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Natural Resources indicated that he did not see it as a big issue, that he did not see anyone buying it and that it would still be controlled by Canada. People will have to excuse me for not having much faith in that because that was the same argument the previous governments used for CN and CP, and will probably be the same one this government will use for our airline industry. Little by little it is chipping away and saying that Canada is for sale. Canadians will no longer have control over our important resources and programs. Therefore I obviously have very little faith in that.

When it was indicated that I would get an opportunity to speak today, I reviewed the debates that took place yesterday. I was extremely impressed with my hon. colleague for Palliser and I want to thank him for his in-depth speech. If anyone wants to really get the true picture of what is going on, one needs only refer to yesterday's Hansard and read the hon. member for Palliser's comments, his experiences and the situations that are out there.

As I read his comments, as well as some of my other colleagues' comments, I also had the opportunity to read the comments of one of the Alliance members. I was shaking my head and thought that this is truly the form of the Alliance. It was the ultimate double speak that I had ever read at any one point, and I want to make reference to it.

I have been quite surprised that politicians literally speak out of both sides of their mouths. They are in favour of this or that because they want to use their householders or ten percenters and have everyone on their side. The bottom line is there are differences. We cannot always be on everybody's side because there are times when there are important issues and politicians want to be there for Canadians and support what is beneficial for them. A politician does not want to get every vote. There are principles involved.

I want to reflect on the double speak from yesterday. It was the member for Athabasca who was speaking. His comments were:

I am pleased to see that the legislation is mindful of the possible consequence of high levels of foreign ownership of uranium resources.

The New Democratic Party has always been concerned over the possible consequences of foreign ownership of our very important natural resources. The Alliance member is acknowledging that, but then goes on to say:

The lower limits on Comeco shares reflect across the board government restrictions on foreign activity in uranium mining.

He is saying that because we do not allow more foreign shares to be sold that is a real issue. That means we have to be concerned about foreign shares, but then we are concerned that we cannot sell them. He goes on to say:

While the Canadian Alliance is all for Canadian businesses having all the opportunities to succeed, we must also be conscious of the need to keep such potentially volatile resources within Canadian control.

He used the words volatile resources in Canadian control. Then his next line is:

The bill allows for greater flexibility in the selling of shares in Canadian companies, and I support that effort.

Has anyone ever heard more double speak in such few short paragraphs? It got better when he went on to talk about Petro-Canada and basically said much of the same thing.

I say to parliamentarians and to all Canadians that uranium is a volatile resource but so are our oil and gas resources. Are they not crucial resources to Canada? Should we not be concerned over the total sell off of those resources to foreign companies?

I wonder if members of the Alliance, Liberals or Conservatives believe that it is okay if they are bought up by Americans? There is a serious risk in selling off our resources in totality to any foreign company. We as Canadians must retain control of those resources.

I would like Canadians to recognize the type of doublespeak that goes on here and to emphasize the importance that the New Democratic Party places on having Canadians controlling our natural resources. We felt that way about our railways, our airlines and our water because they were serious issues.

When I hear this kind of doublespeak from members of other parties, I wonder how they would protect our water resources. Would they do things any differently when all they can see in their minds is the ideology of privatization? Their answer is that everything is for sale.

I am sure that if they could find out how to privatize the sweat off somebody's back and make a profit from it, and they do those kind of things anyway through their labour legislation, they would figure that is okay too. They believe anything can be privatized. It is time that members of parliament and all Canadians take a serious look at the drastic consequences of allowing open season on all our natural resources.

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1:15 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Ken Epp Canadian Alliance Elk Island, AB

Mr. Speaker, the member who just spoke raised some very interesting questions. I faced the same dilemma with one of my neighbours not very long ago when we got into a debate. He has a little farm in Alberta that he wanted to sell because it was just not viable any more. He wanted to get rid of it. He did some advertising and he was offered $100,000. A foreign buyer came along and said that he would give him $250,000.

Here is the dilemma. I object to foreigners buying land in Canada and yet how could I say to the farmer that he should be forced to take $100,000 for his land and not accept the $250,000, which is a little closer to what it is actually worth? What mechanism do we use to assure that Canada stays Canadian? It is a concept in principle with which I agree. However, what is the New Democratic Party policy? Do we compensate people with government tax money or do we make it illegal for them to sell their product or property at the higher price?

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1:15 p.m.

NDP

Bev Desjarlais NDP Churchill, MB

Mr. Speaker, there is no question that Canadians do not want to see all of Canada for sale. They do not and that is the issue here. We had legislation in place and I see no reason that it had to be changed. I would have preferred seeing these companies continue as totally Canadian government owned, the way they were at one time.

We have legislation in place and these companies are doing well financially. Why is there a need to suddenly change it, unless it is to say that there is an open sale on resources in Canada?

It is an issue in the area of farming, but some provinces have rules in place where they have limits on the amount of foreign ownership allowed, whether it be in farming or in tourist areas. It is a concern right now in Nova Scotia where a great length of the coastal shore has been bought out by foreign individuals who do not live there.

That is the same situation with farming. If a farmer moves to Canada my guess is he will end up being as Canadian as most of us if he is farming that operation. No one would argue about that. We need that balance.

When we reach a limit we need something in place to make sure that other farmers or industries that may wish to sell are able to get a reasonable price for their property. Banff went through the same as far as foreign ownership is concerned. There are ways of doing that without selling our country.

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1:20 p.m.

NDP

Bill Blaikie NDP Winnipeg—Transcona, MB

Mr. Speaker, I have a comment to make on the issue of privatization. There is one story I like to tell about privatization that for me says it all. It has to do with the privatization of the Manitoba telephone system which was done by a Conservative government. It said that it would never do such a thing and then did after it was elected. Many friends of the government made a lot of money by buying cheap shares and having them escalate in value.

The story is about a phone located on the perimeter highway in Winnipeg. The phone was placed there for people whose cars broke down or who had some kind of emergency or whatever. As long as the phone was publicly owned it was fine because it was cross-subsidized and was available as a public service. It was there to serve a public need.

As soon as the Manitoba telephone system became privatized and shareholder value became the guiding principle of that corporation, rather than a public service all phone stations were evaluated. The company felt that phone did not pay because it was only used 75 to 150 times a year. Boom, out went the phone. To me this says it all.

With privatization comes a value system. Only those things which are profitable for shareholders are to be valued. Things that at one time under a different ethic and a different form of ownership served other needs, other than the profit strategies of the corporations and the needs of shareholders, were put in place. With privatization we see the disappearance of these things.

It is true with railways, airlines and telephone companies and it will be true with water if we allow our water system to be privatized. Water is the next thing on the hit list of global corporate privatizers. We make no apologies for having been against this trend when it first began and we are still against it.

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1:20 p.m.

NDP

Bev Desjarlais NDP Churchill, MB

Mr. Speaker, I am glad that my colleague raised this issue. I had the opportunity in my comments but I had so many other things to say that I never got to it.

The situation he talks about with the Manitoba telephone system is one of the most despicable things the Conservative government in Manitoba did. We had a viable telephone operation that was beneficial to the whole province and people in my riding.

I have a very remote riding. Some 27 communities do not have all weather road access. A number of communities had a few phones and most often they were pay phones. MTS came in and that is where the pay telephone story comes into play.

The school and the nursing station got a phone and one other phone went in. These were not pay phones. The only pay phone in town was pulled out because there were now three other phones that everybody could run and use. That is the type of approach taken when profit is the only motive.

One of the partners in that process is now the hon. member for Portage—Lisgar. There was an open sale of MTS. The people of Manitoba ousted the Conservative government directly as a result of the sale of MTS because they were not happy about it.

It increased the cost of phone service on an ongoing basis. The cost of a phone has been increasing. The service is far less than it ever was. We had by far the best phone system in the world. Now there are problems after problems. MTS does not put any money back into the service. It is willing to sell it at whatever the rates and does not put the money back in. It is definitely a big issue.

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1:25 p.m.

NDP

Bill Blaikie NDP Winnipeg—Transcona, MB

Mr. Speaker, I will take only a few minutes. I know the government is anxious to bring this to a close. The hon. member for Churchill said that the privatization of MTS was the most dastardly thing the Conservative government of Manitoba had ever done. That reminded me of an even more dastardly thing that was done by the Liberals when they came to power in 1993. I am referring to the privatization of Canadian National Railway which was perpetrated by the Benedict Arnold of transportation, the hon. Doug Young. We are forever grateful to the member for Acadie—Bathurst for removing that political scourge from the House of Commons.

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1:25 p.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

He is a lobbyist now for CN.

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1:25 p.m.

NDP

Bill Blaikie NDP Winnipeg—Transcona, MB

Now he is a lobbyist for CN. I am sure he is doing quite well. I do not know what the ethics counsellor thinks of that. I suppose he passed through the required time of cleansing and everything is being done by the rules, however inadequate those rules may be.

It was a travesty. I remember when we had a publicly owned Canadian National Railway infrastructure from coast to coast. It was operating on business principles but nevertheless from time to time could do things that served the needs of particular communities or regions.

Now we have that same Canadian National Railway, no longer worthy of that name, which is becoming more and more of an American railway. It merged with the Illinois Central. There are more and more American senior managers coming up and running the CNR according to American railway principles.

Who really owns the CNR? Up to 60% of its shareholders are Americans. We had a vast public infrastructure paid for over the years by the Canadian public which was turned over for a very cheap price to what are now American shareholders. We no longer have control of that enormous piece of transportation infrastructure.

It was part of the common wisdom of the country and of parliament for years that given the size of Canada transportation was a critical thing the government had to have some say in. Through the privatization of the CNR and through their relaxing of the regulations that used to attend the regulation of railways we now have a toothless organization. Whatever Paul Tellier wants Paul Tellier gets. Whatever the CPR wants the CPR gets.

Some members may remember when we had a Canadian Transport Commission that could actually make railways do things they did not want to do because it was in the public interest to do them. The CTC could prohibit them from doing things that were harmful.

When the history of Canada is written it will probably be in the past tense and will focus on the major decisions that led to the country's disappearance. Today we hear the Toronto-Dominion Bank saying that in 10 years we will be American dollarizing our economy. When the history of Canada's disappearance is written, the Liberal government of the day and its minister of transport, Doug Young, will figure prominently in its demise.

It is the most shameful thing the Liberals have ever done. There are Liberals over there who cannot say so, but many have told me privately that it was not one of the high points of their political life. They did what not even a Conservative government would do.

Even during the Mulroney years the Conservatives did not have the nerve to do what the Liberals did. They might have thought or fantasized about it, but they did not have the nerve to actually commit such a foul deed. That was left to the Liberals.

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1:30 p.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Mr. Speaker, by speaking about my predecessor, Doug Young, my hon. colleague has given me the opportunity to tell a little story and make some comments.

As the hon. member has said, Doug Young left politics in 1997. In the fall of 1998 he was quoted in the Telegraph Journal as saying he had privatized CN himself and that it was now the best client he had ever had. This was Doug Young, a Liberal minister on the other side of the House. That same article quoted him as saying he was one of the directors who had privatized the four lane highway in New Brunswick. There again he was making millions of dollars on the backs of New Brunswickers.

They sold CN to the New Brunswick East Coast Railway and we lost a bridge in Bathurst, New Brunswick, about 10 months ago which had been owned and maintained by CN. The federal government had also been involved with the bridge. It was on one of the busiest streets in Bathurst and now everyone must go around it. This has forced businesses to close. We lost CN in Bathurst because of privatization. The government has simply washed its hands and said it has nothing to do with it.

I have a question for the hon. member for Winnipeg—Transcona. He has had more than 20 years of experience in parliament and has seen privatization coming all along. I am sure he has seen other cases where Liberals were involved in privatization after leaving politics. Does he wonder whether they are doing it in the best interest of Canadians or the best interest of their own pockets?