Debates of Oct. 9th, 2002

Government Contracts

[Robert Lanctôt, Bloc, Châteauguay, QC]

Mr. Speaker, we are told that Groupaction has apparently contacted former employees and forbidden them from revealing anything to anyone, or in short, has imposed the code of silence.

Is this not additional proof that only a public and independent inquiry will shed light on this and get to the bottom of the sponsorship scandals?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, I have absolutely no knowledge about what Groupaction may or may not have said to its employees.

The point is, if one wants a thorough, professional and comprehensive investigation one gets the best investigators in the world and that is the RCMP.

Social Insurance Numbers

[John Williams, Canadian Alliance, St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Speaker, in 1999 convicted terrorist Ahmed Ressam used a forged Quebec baptismal certificate to obtain a Canadian passport. The Auditor General says that in 1999 the Quebec government told HRDC to stop allowing the use of baptismal certificates to obtain social insurance numbers because of that case, yet HRDC did nothing until August of 2002, three years after he was caught.

Why did the Minister sit and do absolutely nothing for three years while SIN numbers were being abused by illegal immigrants and terrorists?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, as the Auditor General herself pointed out, we were taking action. In that timeframe since 1998 we more than tripled the number of investigations of SIN numbers fraud. We have provided new technology for our workers to use in identifying fraudulent documents and, indeed, we have disallowed the use of baptismal certificates from Quebec and Newfoundland.

[John Williams, Canadian Alliance, St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Speaker, disallowed in August 2002, and yesterday she said that the world had changed on September 11, but that was 13 months ago. It took her until last month to make any changes.

Could the Minister tell us how many of the five million extra social insurance cards that are out there were fraudulently obtained in the last three years while she sat and did nothing?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, I am very glad to answer that question because the vast majority of those five million were in fact already flagged as being dormant or deceased. The Auditor General suggested that they be deactivated and they have been deactivated.

The hon. member will also be interested to know that there were close to a million Canadians living outside the country, retired, working or studying, who did have social insurance numbers legally.

Government Contracts

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, on the issue of sponsorships, there have been two important developments in the last week.

First, Chuck Guité, the official responsible for the program, clearly established the ties that exist between himself and the Prime Minister's office.

Second, Alain Richard, the former vice president of Groupaction, said very clearly that there were ties between the Minister of Public Works and Government Services, the government and Groupaction.

My question is for the Minister of Public Works and Government Services. Is it not true that the mandate of the RCMP investigation focuses only on the irregularities that occurred in the program's administration, and will not focus at all on the ties between the government, the Prime Minister's office and the political approval of this whole affair?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, it is very clear that there are absolutely no limitations on the RCMP. They will follow their investigation wherever it takes them.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, two years ago, the RCMP was called in to handle the investigation into the Human Resources Development Canada scandal, specifically with reference to what happened in the riding of the Prime Minister. We have called the RCMP, and were told to call HRDC. We called HRDC and we were told to call the RCMP, or use the Access to Information Act.

Two years later, it is impossible to get any details about what happened in the Prime Minister's riding.

Is the government not trying to bury the sponsorships issue by handing it over to the RCMP, so that we will never hear anything about it again?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, an internal audit, with an audit implementation plan, independent steps taken by my predecessor, my own internal department review, time billing verification audits, a deputy minister's administrative review under the Financial Administration Act, and ultimately the Auditor General's government-wide audit, this is hardly a cover-up.

National Defence

[Rob Anders, Canadian Alliance, Calgary West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, our military does not have enough money and it does not have enough trained pilots. So what does the government do? It pays money not to train pilots, with $65 million of taxpayer money that has gone into the pockets of Bombardier for our pilots to sit on the ground, and the situation is only getting worse. To top it off, we are the only country not filling all of our flying times.

Why has the government paid money for a service we have not received?

[John McCallum, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, it is a little bit odd to hear an hon. member from the Prairies attacking a fantastic pilot training program in Moose Jaw that creates thousands of jobs. Had it not been for this program, the base at Moose Jaw would have closed down. As one who has lived four years in Manitoba, I know that jobs on the Prairies are not always that plentiful.

[Rob Anders, Canadian Alliance, Calgary West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it is embarrassing when he gets the facts wrong so often. The minister used to be a banker so he should know about long lines, but this situation is getting ridiculous. Our pilots are waiting years just to get the training they need. Canada's old training program produced 64 graduates a year. The new program has not been able to match that in the last two years.

How will training be increased when the government actually has fewer pilots, fewer planes and puts in less money?

[John McCallum, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, this program has brought in more than a billion dollars of training from five different countries. It has received high praise from, for example, the British minister of national defence, my counterpart.

As for the $65 million, it has not been wasted. It is just a question of how that money is spread over time. We will get every dollar of value in that contract over the life of the contract.

Pulp and Paper

[Claude Duplain, Liberal, Portneuf, QC]

Mr. Speaker, on October 8, a series of measures, including financial assistance for the development of the Centre intégré en pâtes et papiers in Trois-Rivières, were announced to help the workers and communities affected by the softwood lumber dispute.

Could the hon. Secretary of State for the Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec tell us what added value such a centre has for Canada?

[Claude Drouin, Liberal, Secretary of State (Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec)]

Mr. Speaker, there are 2,000 jobs to be filled in the pulp and paper sector, and there is a lack of training.

The announcement I made in Trois-Rivières yesterday on behalf of the government concerning a $23.5 million investment will fill this gap. Thus, the centre will become the leading francophone pulp and paper centre in North America, and this was done in partnership with industry.

This is excellent news for La Mauricie, for Quebec, and for all of Canada.

Electoral Boundaries

[Dick Proctor, NDP, Palliser, SK]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister was here in 1964 when major readjustments were made to federal electoral boundaries.

A basic tenet of those readjustments was the assurance that the government's involvement in the process would not be any greater than that of the other parties. Unfortunately, at least three of his ministers have stuck their noses into the process.

Will the Prime Minister explain why the impartiality and independence of the commissions were jeopardized?

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Minister of State and Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member knows full well that the commissions are independent. As he surely knows, two commissioners are selected: one by the Speaker of the House of Commons, in whom we have total confidence, and the other by the chief justice of the province concerned.

[Dick Proctor, NDP, Palliser, SK]

Mr. Speaker, the office of the Minister of Public Works and Government Services has confirmed that the two Saskatchewan appointees were indeed recommended by that minister.

Since the act establishing these commissions states that any two members constitute quorum, would the Prime Minister not agree that the whole process has been tainted, that any veneer of independence has vanished, and that whatever the report recommends will be viewed with suspicion and skepticism by what not only looks like but smells like complete political interference?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, this is an attack on your integrity. These people have been named by you and you have been elected by all members of the House of Commons. It is completely unacceptable that people question your integrity. I think you have used your judgment and you have proven that you have had good judgment in the past.

Correctional Service of Canada

[Bill Casey, Progressive Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Mr. Speaker, officials at Dorchester penitentiary have told me that the operating budget for that maximum security facility is being reduced by over $1 million and the money is being diverted to the addictions research facility in the Solicitor General's riding where there is not one prisoner.

How can the minister risk the safety and security of a maximum security penitentiary like Dorchester by reducing the budget and diverting money to his own riding?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, my hon. colleague indicated that he was going to ask me that question. The fact of the matter is that no money was diverted from the institution to Montague for the Addictions Research Centre, but of course the Addictions Research Centre is a very important facility when we look at addictions being the number one problem for people in our federal penal institutions.

[Bill Casey, Progressive Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Mr. Speaker, the minister cannot deny that the budget of Dorchester and the budget of Springhill have been reduced and that is where the prisoners are. Meanwhile, the facility in the Solicitor General's riding has grown, first from zero to 20 people, and now to 25, and there is not one prisoner there.

Will the minister restore all the money diverted from the budgets of Springhill and Dorchester to ensure the safety and security of these communities?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, of course the Addictions Research Centre is in place in order to deal with addictions and anger management, two very important things in the corrections field. What we want to do is make sure that when people are in our institutions they are returned to society in a safe manner.

National Defence

[Keith Martin, Canadian Alliance, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Mr. Speaker, our military personnel have made an outstanding contribution to the war on terrorism, yet as we are sending our troops to war the government has seen fit to increase the rents on their homes by as much as $840 for somebody making less than $35,000 a year.

My question is simple. Will the government reverse this decision and not raise the rents on the homes of our military families?