House of Commons Hansard #138 of the 37th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was quebec.

Topics

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

February 4th, 2002 / 5:55 p.m.

Bloc

Michel Bellehumeur Bloc Berthier—Montcalm, QC

Mr. Speaker, it is good to see that the hon. member for Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel has understood Quebec's approach, and it is equally good to see that the hon. member for Burnaby—Douglas, a western riding, has understood what we are doing in Quebec. I thank him for supporting our amendment.

It must be understood that we all stand for the amendment we moved to this motion, which deals with the Senate amendment. We will vote against the Senate amendment, not because we are opposed to what is being said about the specificity of the aboriginal people, but because this is already provided for in the Young Offenders Act.

Why is it already done for young aboriginals? Simply because the cornerstone of the act passed in 1984 was the needs of young people. It was not an issue of racism. Whether the issue is the needs of young aboriginals, of young Quebecers, of young Ontarians or any nationality or origin, we looked at their particular needs to rehabilitate these youths living in Canada.

We have no need for this reference to the specificity of the aboriginals because this is already provided for in the Young Offenders Act.

Since we know that the minister has not met with any member of the coalition, that he has not met with experts or stakeholders from Quebec on this issue, how would the hon. member qualify what the minister is doing to pass rapidly this bill, without consulting the people of Quebec?

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

6 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

Mr. Speaker, I repeat, the irony of it is that today a minister from Quebec is challenging Quebec's orientations.

I find his reaction hard to believe. Of course, he washes his hands of it, like Pontius Pilate once did. He is not the one who passed this legislation, his predecessor did. Except he had a golden opportunity to show that a Quebecer, on behalf of all Quebecers, could reconsider a policy detrimental to Quebec society as a whole, especially stakeholders dealing with young offenders. He missed a good opportunity.

History will hold him responsible for the direction he is taking today. I am neither very happy with nor proud of the position taken by the Minister of Justice.

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

6 p.m.

Liberal

John Maloney Liberal Erie—Lincoln, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise tonight to debate the Senate amendment to Bill C-7.

The proposed amendment and the rest of Bill C-7 would provide a legislative framework that would support a fairer and more effective youth justice system for all Canadians, including our aboriginal youth. Real change however, requires more than legislation. That is why Bill C-7 is only one element of a broader initiative to renew youth justice in Canada.

The youth justice renewal initiative was launched in 1998 as a broad based approach to dealing with youth crime in Canada. From the start, it was implemented in close collaboration with the provinces and territorial ministries responsible for youth justice. It is linked to other federal, provincial and territorial strategies including the government's response to the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples, the National Strategy on Community Safety and Crime Prevention and the National Children's Agenda. It comes with significant new federal resources.

Since the launch of the youth justice renewal initiative, new five year financial arrangements worth $950 million have been negotiated with the provinces and territories to support the implementation of Bill C-7 and the overall policy objectives of the initiative. All provinces and territories except two, Ontario and Quebec, have signed the offers made to them.

The new agreements promote and support the program and services most likely to help in the rehabilitation and reintegration of young persons in conflict with the law and in reducing Canada's reliance on the formal court process and custody.

Additional financial support is also available again to provincial and territorial ministries responsible for youth justice but as well to aboriginal communities, bands and organizations, alternative measures societies, school boards, public legal education and information associations other non-governmental organizations, and community groups with a role to play in the renewal of youth justice in Canada.

The youth justice renewal fund is carefully targeted to lay the groundwork for and assist and support in the implementation of the youth criminal justice bill and the broader youth justice renewal initiative.

The capacity of aboriginal peoples to participate in and deliver community based youth justice programs is critical to repairing a flawed youth justice system, limiting the use of the formal court process for aboriginal youth and reducing their rate of custody. Through the youth justice renewal fund, funds would be available to assist aboriginal peoples and communities to build their capacity to develop, assume or expand their role in the youth justice system.

The aboriginal community capacity building component of the fund would be used by communities to, among other things, inform themselves about the youth criminal justice bill, assess their justice needs and develop their capacity to establish and deliver culturally relevant youth justice committees, extrajudicial measures and sanctions, alternatives to pre-trial detention, community reintegration initiatives and community based sentences.

To date, approximately 50 aboriginal based projects have been supported through the youth justice renewal fund including: reintegration and alternative measures programs in Barrie, Ontario; Saskatoon, Saskatchewan; and Punky Lake, British Columbia; community justice committees at the Cowessess First Nation in Saskatchewan, at Coral Harbour in Nunavut and in the Ermineskin region in Alberta; national training and information sharing conferences including the fourth national Metis youth conference in Regina, and the 2001 restorative justice conference in Winnipeg; as well as regional training and information sharing workshops in southeastern Vancouver and in first nations communities in Quebec and Nova Scotia.

There are many aboriginal and other communities across Canada eager to do more to reduce the number of their young people going into custody. In an effort to target the aboriginal community capacity building funds to those communities experiencing some of the greatest difficulty with their young people, a one day snapshot of aboriginal youth in custody was undertaken. This project, as well as providing vital information about aboriginal youth in custody, also served as a prime example of a collaborative approach to researching a problem and devising a solution through the involvement of a wide range of partners.

The study, conducted by the federal Department of Justice with the support of all provincial, territorial ministries responsible for aboriginal youth in custody, profiled aboriginal youth in custody on a single day. It indicated who these youth were, what their home communities were like, where they committed the offence leading to custody and where they would be returning upon their release.

The study provided a rough blueprint of the communities that needed support in dealing with aboriginal youth crime, thereby helping to target youth justice resources. Perhaps not surprisingly, the snapshot revealed a significant western urban problem of aboriginal youth in custody. The results of the study were shared with representatives of other federal departments with mandates relevant to youth justice matters and with provincial and territorial youth justice officials. Discussions were held on how best to respond to the study.

While the study pointed to western urban areas generally, it clearly identified Winnipeg as the city with the greatest number of aboriginal youth in custody on snapshot day. How do we respond? How do we ensure that this research does not become another shelved study?

We need to move quickly and first of all in Winnipeg. We need to bring together Winnipeg based community representatives, provincial and municipal officials, youth justice officials, federal representatives with programs in Winnipeg, aboriginal youth, police officers, arts and recreation specialists and elders to identify current programming for youth in conflict with the law, discuss gaps in programs and services, and plan how best to fill these gaps, both in the short term and the long term.

This initial Winnipeg workshop was held on November 12, 2001 in Winnipeg with over 60 participants. With a goal of marshalling current programs and services and tapping into some new money, the first step has now been taken in moving ahead collaboratively with what is being called the Cities Project for Aboriginal Youth.

Similar planning workshops will be held in several other cities over the next few months while work continues in Winnipeg. Frontline police officers are often, if not always, the first to confront young people about to be in conflict with the law. The new legislation would strengthen and promote the use of their discretion in dealing with youth. Many of Canada's police officers are using their discretion effectively, developing and bringing to bear innovative and creative ways of dealing with youth. Aboriginal police working with aboriginal youth are in the forefront.

The Minister of Justice national youth justice policing award, established in the year 2000 with the full co-operation and support of the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, recognized this innovation. In both years in which the award has been given, aboriginal police working with aboriginal youth have been the winners.

In 2000 the award was presented to Constables Rick Kosowan and Willie Ducharme of Winnipeg for their work with the Ganootamaage justice system, school justice circles and gang members, as well as their successful efforts to bridge the gap between police and aboriginal cultures.

This year the award was presented to Constable Max Morin who was recognized for his imaginative leadership in starting and supporting a number of innovative projects involving aboriginal youth in Ahousaht, British Columbia. It was an honour for me personally to present the award to Constable Morin last summer. Some of the projects included educational field trips, encouraging careers in law enforcement, active participation in healing circles, and discussions involving youth in conflict with the law, victims and families. Family circles, talking circles and circle sentencing were just some of the options used by Constable Morin as an alternative to the court system.

The role aboriginal peoples and their communities can play in the renewal of youth justice in Canada and how this role can be facilitated and assisted was a key feature of this initiative. As early as November 1999 Youth Justice Policy hosted a three day aboriginal youth justice information and skills exchange forum in Winnipeg for more than 180 representatives from aboriginal communities across Canada.

The forum was an opportunity to share experiences, advice and successful programming tips. Following the forum participants were invited to visit one or more of the programs they had learned about as a way of helping them determine whether a similar program might work within their own community.

Youth Justice Policy recently held a roundtable discussion on aboriginal youth and the proposed youth criminal justice bill here in Ottawa. The roundtable provided an opportunity for key professionals across the country to discuss the challenges and possible avenues associated with implementing the provisions of the new legislation in a manner that was culturally relevant and addressed the needs of aboriginal youth. This roundtable was one in a series in which Youth Justice Policy sought a discussion on the complex issues associated with youth and the criminal justice system.

Over 200 invitations were extended since the launch of Youth Justice Policy's internet based discussion forum on aboriginal youth justice issues.

This web based forum is a vehicle for sharing information and exchanging ideas on aboriginal youth justice issues. Following up on the round table discussion, the forum is open to all national and local aboriginal organizations and community groups as well as individuals working in the youth justice field.

These are just a few of the many initiatives for aboriginal youth supported by the Department of Justice through the youth justice renewal initiative.

In closing, the new youth criminal justice act and the broader youth justice renewal initiative provide us with an excellent framework to work together in addressing some profound aboriginal youth justice challenges. This new law together with the Senate amendment will give us the opportunity to build a better youth justice system, not just for aboriginal youth but for all Canadians.

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6:10 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Larry Spencer Canadian Alliance Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

Mr. Speaker, does the hon. member have any ideas or perception as to what the new youth legislation would do to address the chronic repeat offence of car thefts in Regina? I read the figure this week and have forgotten it but the number is around 4,000. These have been attributed primarily to a small group of 30 to 60 people who are stealing cars over and again.

What is in the legislation that would improve the situation in Regina and which would go a little further than the Saskatchewan justice minister's solution which was to hire six new social workers?

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

6:10 p.m.

Liberal

John Maloney Liberal Erie—Lincoln, ON

Mr. Speaker, as the member well knows, certainly one of the benefits of the bill is its balance. There is more rehabilitation, more diversions for first time offenders to keep them from getting into the criminal justice stream so to speak. We acknowledge that there are chronic repeat offenders.

The legislation provides for more severe treatment and punishment of those offenders. There is a part that allows that a portion of the sentence must be under supervision. There are stronger sentences for repeat offenders.

The member said it was a small group of people. We have to get at those people and prevent them from recruiting new members. There are rehabilitation measures. There is diversion.

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

6:10 p.m.

Bloc

Benoît Sauvageau Bloc Repentigny, QC

Mr. Speaker, I listened carefully to the hon. member's speech and I have a question for him.

The purpose of Bill C-7 is to repeal and replace the Young Offenders Act. Could the hon. member tell us what he believes is, in fact, not working in this act and what the new Bill C-7 will rectify?

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

6:10 p.m.

Liberal

John Maloney Liberal Erie—Lincoln, ON

Mr. Speaker, I certainly agree with my friend. The Young Offenders Act has worked well in the province of Quebec but no one has yet shown me why the new youth criminal justice act will not work equally as well. All the good features of the Young Offenders Act can still be applied under the youth criminal justice act.

There is also the whole criminal justice milieu in the province of Quebec. The provincial prosecutors are appointed by the province. The provincial court judges are appointed by the province and handle probably 95% of the cases. Many of the social assistance and social welfare agencies are funded by the province.

The same philosophy certainly will work under the youth criminal justice act as it does under the Young Offenders Act.

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6:15 p.m.

Parkdale—High Park Ontario

Liberal

Sarmite Bulte LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Canadian Heritage

Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to have to address my support for Bill C-7, the youth criminal justice act. I have followed the bill with great interest during its passage through the House of Commons, the Senate and now back before us for consideration of one amendment dealing with the overrepresentation of aboriginal youth in custody.

As the House knows, the youth criminal justice act was passed by the House in May 2001. The Senate then approved the bill in December with one small amendment dealing with a very important requirement: to consider non-custodial sentences for aboriginal youth. This is the amendment now before the House.

It is important to remember that Bill C-7 and its predecessors have been before parliament for over three years. It has been the subject of extensive and prolonged scrutiny by the House of Commons and also by the Senate. Many hours of parliamentary time have been spent in reviewing the proposals. Parliament has heard from dozens of witnesses whose views have been taken into account in the amendments that have been approved by both the House and the Senate.

It is important for us to recall that several months were dedicated to parliamentary hearings on Bill C-3 which was the predecessor to Bill C-7. Many hours were spent examining that bill. In fact the House standing committee heard from close to 100 witnesses. It found the substance of many of these interventions very compelling. Some 160 amendments to the bill were actually put forward.

Unfortunately Bill C-3 died on the order paper. It was reintroduced as Bill C-7 in February 2001. I should add that it was done so with the amendments. The overall direction and all key elements were retained, designed to reduce complexity and provide greater clarity and in fact improve flexibility for the provinces.

I must say that as a member of parliament who practised law for 18 years before seeking public office, and as a mother of three children, two boys and a girl age 20, 12 and 17 respectively, I have been impressed throughout the consideration of the bill by parliament, as well as listening to my constituents and the Canadian public as a whole, with just how much support there is across Canada for the government's efforts to provide solutions to respond to this complex area of youth justice.

People are genuinely concerned that our society finds fair and effective ways of dealing with young people who are alleged or are found to have committed offences. There may be some differences of approach in certain areas but I am very encouraged by the fact that the majority of those who appeared before parliament supported the bill's main objectives.

Members of parliament and Canadians from all walks of life have shown support for a youth justice system that is based upon clearly stated principles that emphasize the key features of the type of system we want for our youth who come into conflict with the law. Bill C-7 provides for this.

It acknowledges the fact that young people lack the maturity of adults. It includes an emphasis on rehabilitation and reintegration and holding young people accountable in a manner that is consistent with their reduced level of maturity. It requires that interventions with young persons be fair and proportionate, encourage the repair of harm done, and involve parents and others in a young person's rehabilitation and reintegration. In addition, interventions must respect gender, ethnic, cultural and linguistic differences, and respond especially to the needs of aboriginal young persons and of young persons with special requirements.

The bill is aimed at reducing use of the formal justice system and increasing the amount of diversion for the vast majority of youth crime. In fact experience in other countries shows that measures outside the court process can provide effective and timely responses to less serious youth crime as well as the opportunity for the broader community to play an important role in developing community based responses to youth crime.

As an aside, in my riding, community impact statements are something which my community has always called upon. In a sense, Bill C-7 addresses that with respect to young offenders.

Canadians also support a reduction in the overuse of custody in this country. It was amazing for me to learn that Canada has the highest youth incarceration rate in the western world, including the United States.

In contrast to the Young Offenders Act, the new legislation provides that custody is to be reserved primarily for violent offenders and serious repeat offenders. The youth criminal justice act recognizes that non-custodial sentences can often provide more meaningful consequences and be much more effective in rehabilitating young persons.

This bill also contains measures for the rehabilitation and reintegration of those who in fact do go into custody, putting an emphasis on assisting a young person to successfully make the transition back to the community. Young people can be reintegrated if they receive the proper support, assistance and opportunities.

The proposed youth criminal justice act will ensure a fairer and more effective system as well as address our overreliance on incarceration in this country. For those who do go into custody, it will increase their opportunity for reintegration into the community. Those appearing before parliament have reinforced that legislation alone will not change the course of youth justice and will not in itself reduce youth crime. That is why the legislation is part of a broader youth justice renewal initiative which was launched in 1999. The legislation is the centrepiece, the cornerstone of the federal government's youth justice renewal initiative.

There is more to the initiative however. The broader initiative recognizes the legislation will need to be carefully and effectively implemented. Officials and professionals implementing the new legislation will have the training and the tools they need to successfully implement it. In addition, public legal education materials will be available in easily accessible language to reach everyone involved, including youth themselves, parents, victims, schools and others.

This initiative includes significant resources to stimulate new youth justice programs consistent with the federal policy objectives and new partnerships with child welfare, schools, crime prevention workers and others for more enduring solutions to youth crime. The federal government has fostered consultations and funded projects as part of the strategy, inviting collaborative, multidisciplinary approaches to the developmental challenges facing children and our youth. Youth crime is a complex problem that cannot be effectively answered by discipline working in isolation.

The federal government has also made offers of financial support for youth justice programs under its spending power authority and consistent with the social union framework agreement. These offers are for five year financial agreements totalling more than $950 million to the provinces and territories in support of the policy objectives of the youth justice renewal initiative. This amount does not include the significant additional federal resources to support the intensive support and rehabilitative custody and supervision orders intended to provide therapy and support for the most violent and troubled youth.

Moreover, about $27 million of resources, that is, $12.7 million this fiscal year, $7.5 million in the last fiscal year and $7 million the year before that, have been made available to the provinces and territories to assist in preparing for the new legislation through training, encouraging partnerships, improving information systems, addressing implementation contingencies and preparing for reintegration planning and support.

The federal government is also firmly committed to preventing crime. The federal Department of Justice began the government's community crime prevention initiative in 1999, which includes children and youth as priorities for the $32 million available annually for community based crime prevention initiatives.

On July 5 last year, the Government of Canada announced that it will invest a further $145 million in the national strategy on community safety and crime prevention to strengthen its efforts to support community based responses to crime. This is in addition to the national children's agenda which focuses on supporting children's development, particularly for the critical ages of zero to six years.

I ask that all members of the House support Bill C-7, a bill that has been debated and looked at by both houses. We are here now to finally approve the final amendment. Let us start working together to stop youth crime.

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6:25 p.m.

Bloc

Suzanne Tremblay Bloc Rimouski-Neigette-Et-La Mitis, QC

Mr. Speaker, I listened very attentively to the hon. member's speech. I would like to ask her only one question.

The bill is before the House because the Senate proposed an amendment concerning the aboriginals. During a press conference last Friday in Quebec City, aboriginals said that they did not want this amendment. They went even further. They are prepared to not enforce the law. If the bill is passed with this amendment, they want nothing to do with it.

What can the hon. member say? What does she think of the respect due to aboriginals and those who plead for changes, and why is her government paying no attention to such a simple request, that Quebec be exempted and that aboriginals not be forced to accept an amendment they do not want?

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6:25 p.m.

Liberal

Sarmite Bulte Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON

Mr. Speaker, my hon. colleague knows I have a tremendous amount of respect for her. My colleague should know that I also have tremendous respect for the people of the province of Quebec and the other provinces and territories.

It is important to look at the amendment not just in a specific way. The amendment is consistent with the criminal code. We have looked at not having to use custody as the first and foremost alternative to fixing things or preventing crime of any sort, not just youth crime.

As I said during debate, it is very important to remember, that the bill has been examined for three years by both the House and the Senate. The one final amendment is the result of additional consultations that have taken place.

We have a Senate and a House of Commons. The Senate, as the house of second thought, took it upon itself to listen to witnesses across the country, including aboriginal people, who felt this was something that would make the legislation better so we could work together with our youth to prevent youth crime.

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6:25 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Brian Fitzpatrick Canadian Alliance Prince Albert, SK

Mr. Speaker, in a society governed by the rule of law people should be judged on the basis of their characters and actions, not on personal characteristics such as race.

I had the pleasure of living in the United States for a good portion of the 1960s. I watched with interest the civil rights movement that took place during that era in the United States and the struggle that people went through. There are two main focuses of the civil rights movement that I would like to raise in this context today.

The first part of the civil rights movement was a full, frontal attack on laws that separated American citizens on the basis of race. It confronted Jim Crow Laws and segregation laws wherever they were found. They were found through all segments of American society, predominantly in the south. The movement was also based on high ideals. It abhorred segregation and it believed in a great society of integration where everyone would participate in that larger society, regardless of race or other personal characteristics.

Martin Luther King was clearly the leader of that movement. The clear goal of Mr. King's famous and memorable speech “I have a dream” , which was delivered in Washington before hundreds of thousands of Americans, was his passion that his children and grandchildren would live in a society in which they would be judged on the basis of their characters and actions and not on the basis of the colour of their skin.

This government has created far too much public policy based on separating Canadians on the basis of race. With this proposed amendment, we will be clearly judging people on the basis of race rather than on their characters and actions.

A little while ago we lost a very special Canadian, Mr. Justice Willard Estey. In my view, Justice Estey has been one of the many great gifts that Saskatchewan has given the country. As a law student at the University of Saskatchewan in the 1970s, Justice Estey used to make an annual pilgrimage to the University of Saskatchewan and provide special lectures to the students. He was a very friendly individual but also a very provocative individual who stimulated thinking.

Justice Estey underscored the importance of the rule of law and equality before the law. He saw these principles as fundamental to justice and the justice system, these principles that separated the Anglo-American tradition from many of the tyrannies and less tasteful societies in the world.

I would ask everyone to please note that the proposed amendment to our criminal code is a significant departure from the rule of law and equality before the law. When we depart from these principles, especially in the area of criminal law, we are creating unfairness and injustice. We are laying the basis for some very serious, negative, unintended consequences.

I intend to use a simple hypothetical to illustrate the importance of the rule of law and equality before the law.

Three people appear in magistrate's court on a Monday morning with identical charges, all parking meter charges.

The first person appears before the judge. The judge says that this is not a serious matter and he is assessed the minimum fine of $20.

The second person steps up before the judge and receives quite a lecture on the matter. The judge says that this is getting out of hand and that he is hearing this too often. He is assessed a fine of $100.

The third person appears before the judge with the identical charge. The judge says that this thing is becoming epidemic, that there are far too many people in the community who are breaking this sort of law and that he has to send out a clear message of deterrence to the community. The third individual is placed in jail for a week and is fined $500.

I think we can all see what Mr. Justice Estey was talking about when he talked about the importance of equality before the law and the rule of law.

Another problem with this approach is that it undermines what I think are some of the main features of our criminal justice system. The purpose of the criminal justice system, first and foremost, is to provide security and protection to law-abiding citizens. In this sense, it clearly sends out the wrong message. The strong likelihood of being caught and the fear of consequences are two of the best deterrents to crime anywhere.

In New York City, Mayor Giuliani developed an amazing reputation before September 11 as a mayor who came to one of the most crime-infested cities of the world. Central Park was a danger zone night or day and was run by gangs. There were areas of New York where one would not go into.

What did Mayor Giuliani do with this crime problem? He hired more police officers. He put them in the areas where there were high crime rates, at the time that the crime rates were taken. The criminals soon realized they were going to be apprehended. He returned to community policing, where neighbourhoods got to know their local police officers on a first name basis and saw these people as their friends and their protectors.

Excluding September 11, and I think my figures are accurate, New York City now has a lower crime rate than any city in Great Britain with a population of 500,000 people or more. This has been quite a remarkable accomplishment.

If this government really wants to reduce the crime rate it should focus on some of the things Mayor Giuliani did in New York. Give more resources to police officers and police work. That would help deter and prevent crime in the first place.

Criminal law is not a suitable instrument for correcting social ills. Nor is the failed policies of past Liberal governments in the areas of Indian and aboriginal affairs. The main aim of the criminal justice system, as I stated before, is to protect society from criminal wrongdoers and to deter others from committing such crimes in the first place. On both counts, the bill is a total, absolute failure.

A high rate of crime among ethnic groups is not an indictment against our court system or our criminal justice system. It is like blaming the barometer for the bad weather outside or blaming the justice system or the court system for a high rate of convictions among a certain ethnic group. It is a damning indictment on failed Liberal policies on Indian and aboriginal affairs. The Liberals approach, basically for 125 years, has been a dismal failure.

The bill is an example of the government's ability to competently manage the decline of the country. We have seen a lot of drift, decline and decay with the government. With this bill the law itself would be the cause of injustice, division and intolerance.

I ask Liberal members to seriously look at what we are doing. We are attacking a fundamental point of the Anglo-American judicial system: equality before the law and rule of law, especially in the area of criminal justice. This is the last area we want to get into with this sort of thing. I encourage Liberal members to talk the government into withdrawing the bill and taking a hard look at it.

I will use another example of the failure of dividing people on the basis of race and other social engineering. I often wonder what a Liberal government would have done in the 1980s if it had been managing the National Hockey League. The Edmonton Oilers had an outstanding team. I did not cheer for it because it beat my team quite badly, but it was a powerhouse of a team. It had Messier, Anderson, Kurri, Coffey, Grant Fuhr and, on top of it all probably the greatest player who ever played the game, Wayne Gretsky. It was an awesome hockey team. To watch it play was outstanding.

If the government had been involved with the NHL at the time I am sure it would have expanded the net for the Edmonton Oilers, given opposing teams a smaller net, limited Wayne Gretsky to maybe 12 minutes a game and made him play with a shorter stick, and allowed other teams to have an extra forward on the ice. It would have done this to balance it out so the score would be even at the end of the game.

This is what these kinds of policies are doing to our economy, our society and our criminal justice system. If we stand back and look we can see it is what the government is doing. Its policies are penalizing winners and often rewarding losers, leading to a society of mediocre performance, drift and decline. Some people say Canada will be Argentina north with these sorts of policies. They say we are slowly managing ourselves into a decline with lower expectations and a lower bar. I do not see what purpose the proposed law would serve.

When we have aboriginal youth before our court system who are in gang situations, people with Somalian or other immigrant backgrounds may also be involved with the gangs. How in the world is a judge to know who is aboriginal and who is not? Is there a medical test that can be performed? Is there a blood or DNA test which could be taken in court to determine who is aboriginal and who is not? Do we want to get into that sort of thing?

It is amazing that in this day and age a Liberal government would contemplate this sort of thing. Let us imagine the mental gymnastics which would be performed in our courts to deal with it. How much aboriginal blood would it take? Would it be 1%, 3%, 5% or 10%? What percentage would become the bar? Would Metis people be involved or only status aboriginal people? A whole lot of problems are inherent in the bill.

William Shakespeare said many years ago that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Quite seriously, this piece of legislation is all about good intentions and would cause a whole lot of problems. If we continue down this path it will get worse and worse.

I remind members in the House of what Dr. King said in the 1960s, probably weeks or months before he was assassinated. He said he wanted to see a society in the United States where his children and grandchildren would be judged on the basis of their character and actions and not the colour of their skin.

Unfortunately with this bill we would be judging people by the colour of their skin. That is a serious problem. I did not think a Liberal government in the year 2002 would be doing the exact thing Martin Luther King fought against in the 1960s, but that is what the government is doing. It is creating an apartheid type regime in the criminal justice system. I find that most unfortunate.

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6:45 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

It being 6.15 p.m., pursuant to order made earlier today it is my duty to interrupt the proceedings and put forthwith every question necessary to dispose of the consideration of the amendment tabled by the Senate to the bill now before the House.

The question is on the amendment. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the amendment?

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6:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

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6:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

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6:45 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

All those in favour of the amendment will please say yea.

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6:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

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6:45 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

All those opposed will please say nay.

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6:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

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6:45 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

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6:45 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Call in the members.

And the count having been taken:

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7:15 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

John Herron Progressive Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

Mr. Speaker, I would like to have my vote recorded as yes. I support the Bloc on this motion.

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7:15 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

It appears that under the circumstances we would require unanimous consent to accept the vote of our colleague from Fundy--Royal. Is there unanimous consent?

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7:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

(The House divided on the amendment, which was negatived on the following division:)

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7:15 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I declare the amendment lost.

The next question is on the motion.

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7:15 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Catterall Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. If you seek it, I think you would find unanimous consent that those who voted on the amendment be recorded as voting on the main motion with Liberal members voting yes, with the exception of the Minister for International Trade.