House of Commons Hansard #159 of the 37th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was flag.

Topics

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:20 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Peter MacKay Progressive Conservative Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS

This is Canada.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:20 p.m.

Liberal

George Baker Liberal Gander—Grand Falls, NL

That is right and that is the point. That is exactly right and that is why members from the opposition should get it straight. This is Canada. This is not the United States.

Not only in the U.S. under the constitution are the ambassadors examined, but also members of the cabinet and also members of the supreme court in the United States. That is in the constitution of the United States. Now what is in the constitution of Canada? We know that it is the Prime Minister, the executive branch of government, that appoints those three groups of people: the ambassadors, the cabinet and the supreme court.

So the word ethics is in the U.S. senate direction under the constitution that determines what the senate committee will report to the senate and to the government. They have an ultimate veto. In other words, the president of the United States has to go back after the senate determines that someone is not appropriate and the president of the United States has to delay it and go back to it the next year.

What is in the Canadian act? What is in Standing Order 111 in the House of Commons? What are the words found there? I do not hear anybody from the opposition mentioning what the words are. The words were determined by a standing committee headed by a member of the official opposition, supported by the NDP, and were voted on by every party in the House wholeheartedly and passed. What were those words? The words were “qualifications and competence”. That is from Standing Order 111 of our standing orders. It gives the committee 30 days after the tabling of the name of the nominee or the appointee to a position by order in council.

Here is the point. Under our rules, Beauchesne for the Canadian House and Erskine May for the British house, if we look at citation 863, there is a famous paragraph. What it states is that any witness who appears before a standing committee cannot claim not to answer because his answer might incriminate him. He cannot say that. A witness cannot refuse to answer on the basis that he or she took an oath in a cabinet. No, our rules are very clear, as are the rules in the British house, as are the rules in the Australian house. It is in citation 863. Members can look it up. It says a person cannot claim as an excuse a contract or solicitor-client privilege. It also states, in one clear sentence, that in regard to the excuses used for witnesses not to answer in a court of law, because in a court of law there are certain things that a witness can say and refuse to answer, that is not the case before a standing committee of the House of Commons.

That famous Newfoundlander James McGrath, who was a PC but pretty straightforward and a good thinker, chaired the committee in 1986, just after--

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:25 p.m.

NDP

Bill Blaikie NDP Winnipeg—Transcona, MB

You are abusing his memory now.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

George Baker Liberal Gander—Grand Falls, NL

If the hon. member would listen he might learn something.

It was just after the charter was brought in. Members of the House of Commons, if the hon. member will remember correctly, brought in a unanimous report. In that unanimous report, which Mr. Blaikie cannot remember, although I am not supposed to mention the name of the hon. member for Winnipeg--Transcona, he cannot seem to remember very clearly, he took part in it and he should remember it. He should remember what is in the committee, but anyway--

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:25 p.m.

The Speaker

The hon. member for Winnipeg--Transcona is rising on a point of order.

I am not sure I should recognize him since this is a question of privilege, which takes precedence, but I hope he will clarify something for the House.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:25 p.m.

NDP

Bill Blaikie NDP Winnipeg—Transcona, MB

Mr. Speaker, it is odd that in the course of lecturing others about parliamentary decorum the member should break one of the fundamental rules of the House.

I would remind the hon. member that, as he said, I was a member of that committee, I am the last member of that committee in the House, I remember what we recommended, and it is far different from the codswallop that the hon. member is trying to put before the House now.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:25 p.m.

The Speaker

I had a suspicion this was not a point of order, but we have had some elucidation from the hon. member for Winnipeg--Transcona as the last surviving member of that committee.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

George Baker Liberal Gander—Grand Falls, NL

Mr. Speaker, the first committee that examined this question was held in 1976. Members of that committee included the hon. Stanley Knowles and also the hon. Walter Baker and James Jerome, and also myself in 1976, so I predate the hon. member by about 10 years.

The hon. member has raised an interesting question: What was in that report? What was in that report is exactly this: that the power of veto would be used for regulatory bodies such as the CRTC. Does the hon. member remember that? He recommended a veto power by committees for appointees to the CRTC, to the Canadian Transport Commission, to regulatory bodies, to positions of the House of Commons. Just imagine that, but this was a very good recommendation.

The final recommendation the committee made on veto, which all members of the House agreed to, concerned not only regulatory bodies, but also the privacy commissioners, commissioners that are appointed by cabinet.

The point is this: that what the committee recommended unanimously was that there would not be a veto for positions that included ambassadors or anybody else and that is what is in our standing orders. That is what the opposition agreed to and that is now what it is disagreeing with.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:30 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Randy White Canadian Alliance Langley—Abbotsford, BC

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. This is an opposition day of debate. I ask the members, in particular the member who just got through babbling on for 20 minutes, to try to get to the point. We do have another point of order coming up that is rather lengthy.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:30 p.m.

The Speaker

Of course the Chair is very interested in getting to the point. I thought we got to the point. The hon. member for Gander--Grand Falls has completed his remarks. It was perhaps a circuitous route to get to the point he wanted to make, but we will now hear from the government House leader.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:30 p.m.

Wascana Saskatchewan

Liberal

Ralph Goodale LiberalLeader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, I note that my great friend from Newfoundland always has such a calming influence on the House of Commons that I am delighted to be able to speak after him on the very important point he has made. I have four quick points I wish to make very briefly.

First, having listened to the discussion over the last number of minutes involving people who were participants in the committee work earlier today, what I hear from those representations is obviously a disagreement among committee members with respect to work that went on in the committee this morning. Some obviously are satisfied with what the committee did, others are dissatisfied, but it is important to note that what we have here primarily is a dispute among members with respect to the satisfactory nature, or not, of the committee's work.

Second, it would appear that some members in the committee wish to pursue a line of questioning that has to do with certain allegations and accusations. I think that in all of the representations that have been made, it has been conceded that while different members may have different views with respect to those allegations and accusations, they are in fact in the category of things that are unproven and unsubstantiated, allegations or accusations that members may or may not believe but are not in the realm of that which is proven.

Third, it appears to me from the time during which I was able to watch some of those committee proceedings through the television service of the House of Commons that the ambassador designate provided a very fulsome and extensive description of his view of his qualifications and his aspirations as a representative of Canada overseas. He was very fulsome in coming forward with his description of those things. I would note that in fact it was a three hour meeting, which provided a very substantial opportunity for views to be expressed and questions to be asked.

Finally, I would note that in any event, as is well established by the procedures of the House, a committee is in fact the master of its own procedure. There is obviously a complaint about the committee's work on the part of some members, but I would observe that whether a member is particularly happy or unhappy with what a committee has done, a complaint about the nature of the work does not constitute a question of privilege. In fact, what we are left with is a disagreement among members about what that work was, the overriding consideration being that the committee is in fact the master of its own procedure and is able to determine these things for itself.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:30 p.m.

NDP

Bill Blaikie NDP Winnipeg—Transcona, MB

Mr. Speaker, just briefly because I know you probably would like this to end and so would the official opposition so they can get back to the business of their opposition day, I have a few things to say.

I would not want you to pay too much attention, Mr. Speaker, to the remarks of the hon. member from Newfoundland, because he was refuting an argument that nobody is making. Nobody is arguing that the committee has the power to veto the appointment of Mr. Gagliano as ambassador to Denmark. As fine an argument as that is and as well grounded in the facts of the McGrath report as it is, it is completely irrelevant to the claim being made on the floor of the House here today, which really is about what would constitute the full power of the committee to review, not to veto, the appointment of Mr. Gagliano.

What is being argued here is basically that by virtue of the decision that was taken in committee today, the committee is not able to live up to the responsibilities that it is assigned by the standing order that came out of the McGrath report, not some imaginary standing order that the member from Newfoundland has done such a great job of refuting, but the real standing order, which says that there shall be an ability to:

examine the qualifications and competence of the appointee or nominee to perform the duties of the post to which he or she has been appointed or nominated.

It would seem very odd to me that in fulfilling this kind of responsibility it would be against the rules to inquire of anyone about the job the person just had, about the responsibility the person just finished executing. That is the nub of the debate here: whether or not the ruling in the committee today prohibits members from asking questions about the newly appointed ambassador's former responsibility. That is the question before the House, not whether or not there is a veto, not whether or not we are the United States, and not all the other things that the member from Newfoundland brought up to sort of puff up and fill the House with gas and have us diverted from the real point.

I would urge you to rule on the real point here, Mr. Speaker, and not on the straw man that the member from Newfoundland has erected for our entertainment but certainly not for our enlightenment.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:35 p.m.

Mississauga South Ontario

Liberal

Paul Szabo LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Works and Government Services

Mr. Speaker, I was at the three hour committee meeting. The member for Portage--Lisgar made reference to past accusations against Mr. Gagliano. I think that with due care there have been no accusations against the former minister.

In fact, this issue has to do with allegations and innuendo. Other than the Groupaction issue which has come up now, all of the other allegations or innuendo are all matters which have been before the House previously, all matters which have been disposed of by the ethics councillor or otherwise disposed of.

The last speaker, the member for Winnipeg--Transcona, also questioned whether the prior job was relevant to the ability to do the job. He is quite right, Mr. Speaker, and I think you would agree that the experience and expertise of an individual is relevant. What is not relevant though is whether or not we can dig into allegations and innuendo. There have been no charges laid; there have been no legal proceedings. There have been no questions that have been unanswered.

Mr. Speaker, from this standpoint the issue is a matter of using allegations as the basis for questions and fishing rather than using proven facts and evidence that is prima facie.

Finally I point out that the Minister of Public Works and Government Services did not, as a headline suggests, blame some issue on some previous member. All he simply did was to refer to the fact that there have been three directors general and two ministers since this event occurred. That was a spin of the media and certainly not the representation of the minister.

The chairman of the committee was very forthright with the committee. He read out the terms of reference and also outlined in great detail exactly what we could do in terms of the examination under question. There was also a reaffirmation by the clerk of the committee and there was a ruling. As soon as the issue came up in the first instance by the member for Portage--Lisgar, it was challenged on the basis that the chair had laid it out. There was a challenge to the chair and the chair's decision was sustained.

The committee fully exhausted the grounds on which it could explore this thing. It did not exclude references to any aspects of the job and prior jobs of Mr. Gagliano, but it certainly dealt directly with allegations and innuendo as being inappropriate in regard to that examination.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:35 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Peter MacKay Progressive Conservative Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS

Mr. Speaker, I concur with the suggestion that this issue of the veto has been really put forward as an attempt to lay out some rabbit tracks, so I will not delve into the gaseous emissions from the Newfoundland member.

With respect to the actual report and the relevance of the committee work I think what is important in your ruling on this point, Mr. Speaker, is the ability of the committee to bring forward a negative report, that is, if members of the committee wish to bring forward a negative finding and in order to do so need to expound upon the evidence that would enable them to do so.

This goes to the very root of committees work, its ability to garner evidence that allows it to bring forward a negative report, a dissenting report, other than that which the Liberal dominated majority of the committee may decide upon. That is the crux of the matter here. It is important that you, Mr. Speaker, take that into consideration.

As for the delay, I will not touch upon the Janus faced tears of the official opposition House leader when he suggests that somehow this is an important matter to discuss. Of course it was important for him to delay a supply day motion on behalf of the PC/DR coalition just last week so I will leave that to the Chair.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:40 p.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc Mercier, QC

Mr. Speaker, thank you for hearing us. I have a great deal of respect for the chair of our committee, but my question goes beyond my respect for her, because I believe—and this is what I would like you to consider—that the committee was not able to exercise its powers pursuant to Standing Order 111(2).

The order reads, “—examine the qualifications”, therefore he is accountable, “and competence—”.

If in the French version, there is a distinction between skills and competence. The only way to examine someone's competence is to look at their experience. There is no other way. If we cannot consider their experience, there is no way of gauging their competence, and if that is the case, we are not able to exercise our judgment.

Then, the French version refers to the ability of the appointee or nominee to perform the duties. We said, and it is a fact, or at least it is a fact in Quebec, that the reputation of the hon. Gagliano is seriously tarnished and damaged. This is a fact. This is not an allegation, but a fact. The committee, and its review, cannot ignore this, and we cannot help but ask the ambassador for his thoughts about carrying out the duties of his future position.

Therefore, we were not able to do our job, and that is what I want to point out to you.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:40 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I would like to thank the hon. member for Mercier for raising this question, as well as all of the hon. members who took part in the discussion: the member for Burnaby--Douglas, the member for Winnipeg--Transcona, the member for Pictou--Antigonish--Guysborough, the member for Cumberland--Colchester, the member for Gander--Grand Falls, the member for Mississauga South, as well as the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons. I hope I did not forget anyone.

I will take the matter under advisement and get back to the House later with my decision on this important matter.

We can carry on. The hon. member for Portage--Lisgar has another question of privilege.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:40 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Brian Pallister Canadian Alliance Portage—Lisgar, MB

Mr. Speaker, on February 28 the Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister raised a question of privilege claiming that the dignity of the House was in question and suggested that it had something to do with statements I made outside the House.

I have the utmost respect for the House, its members and the authority of the Speaker. I have the utmost respect even for the member for Leeds--Grenville but I take offence to these kinds of accusations.

The member's charge of contempt involves my charge of contempt against his colleague, the Minister of National Defence. His case appears to be more a prima facie case of tit for tat than it is one of contempt.

I raised my question of privilege against the Minister of National Defence because I believed that parliament deserved, and its members required, truthful and precise information. The fact that it was a minister of the crown involved made it that much more serious because the principle of ministerial responsibility provides the foundation of our constitutional system for the control of power. Providing parliament with accurate information and being responsible for that information is a key responsibility of a minister.

The parliamentary secretary would have us believe that he is protecting the dignity of the House. The way I see it and the way Canadians will see it is that the Prime Minister through his parliamentary secretary is trying to protect the Minister of National Defence and the reputation of his government. If he were interested in the dignity of the House he would not be trying to censor the opposition from exposing his government's disrespectful and dismissive view of the House and its members. As John Diefenbaker once said:

If parliament is to be preserved as a living institution, His Majesty's Loyal Opposition must fearlessly perform its functions. The reading of history proves that freedom always dies when criticism ends.

My accuser is noticeably upset with my charge of contempt against his colleague, the Minister of National Defence. He desperately wants the criticism of the way his government is handling this issue to end but it will not end. If anything, the way in which the government has responded to this criticism will encourage it.

My responsibility and the responsibility of members on this side of the House is to protect Canadians from the tyranny of the majority. Such tyranny must be guarded against. We saw ample evidence of that this morning in the committee examining the ambassadorial appointment of former public works minister Alfonso Gagliano.

The government has aborted the committee's inquiry into the defence minister's conflicting statements about prisoners in Afghanistan in order to prevent further embarrassment for the minister. Liberal MPs vehemently opposed requests for more evidence after going through a preliminary round of 11 witnesses. The Liberals on the committee used their majority to defeat motions, to call witnesses, to gather more facts, to get more information, to recall the minister, and to resolve questions raised by contradictions between his testimony and that of the Canadian military chief of staff.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:45 p.m.

Leeds—Grenville Ontario

Liberal

Joe Jordan LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. If the member were to review the transcript and look at the point of privilege I raised he would see that it was a very specific issue. The issue was that the language that was being used on the question of privilege one was allowed in making the charge before the Speaker by using phrases like deliberately misled when making the charge.

My question of privilege pointed out, and I backed it up with transcript evidence, that it continued outside this place, that is the use of words and phrases like, lied and deliberately misled, which were unparliamentary. My question of privilege dealt with the issue of whether a member of the House can say outside the House what the member is not allowed to say inside the House. It is as simple as that. The re-arguing of the issue that was before the committee does not have any relevance to the point of privilege.

As far as I am concerned the issue is very straightforward. If it cannot be said in here members cannot say it outside the House. That is the issue, Mr. Speaker, that you need to rule on.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:45 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The hon. member for Leeds--Grenville had an opportunity to bring his case to the House through the Chair. I would hope and will do my best not to allow a debate to take place. I would like to hear further from the hon. member for Portage--Lisgar.

Points of OrderOral Question Period

3:45 p.m.

Glengarry—Prescott—Russell Ontario

Liberal

Don Boudria LiberalMinister of Public Works and Government Services

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.

First, I apologize to the hon. member.

I am willing to table the document “Affidavit--Analysis and Sponsorship Opportunities”. This is the affidavit provided by the company Groupaction that was promised.

So, this is the sworn affidavit provided by Groupaction which I promised to table in the House, and I am doing so right now.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

March 19th, 2002 / 3:50 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Brian Pallister Canadian Alliance Portage—Lisgar, MB

Mr. Speaker, again my intention is to address the member's question of privilege. Despite his admonitions to the contrary I am attempting to deal with the specific accusations he has levelled against me, as frivolous as I believe them to be.

The statements by the minister of defence to the committee, which were contradicted subsequently by the chief of defence staff and by the deputy chief of defence staff, would be something that hon. members would think committee members would want to get to the bottom of. I raise this as an example of something that illustrates where the tyranny of the majority who want to get to the end of the process rather than the bottom of it was used.

I give this as an example to you, Mr. Speaker, because I think it is important. The Prime Minister's parliamentary secretary who has raised this question of privilege against me, said in advance of the committee's work that he would vote against all motions for more witnesses. That he would vote against all witnesses coming before the committee clearly betrays the government's desire to simply get to the end of the process as fast as it can, not to get to the bottom of it.

Now the Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister is trying to use a question of privilege to discourage the opposition from criticizing the minister. I would like to tell the parliamentary secretary through you, Mr. Speaker, that he cannot silence me and he will not silence the members of the Canadian Alliance in this way.

He cannot end allegations of cover-up and manipulation of information on the part of the government by continuing that kind of behaviour. If he wants to end the criticism, he should begin for example by telling the member for Toronto--Danforth to stop threatening the witnesses who appear before the committee. He should urge the minister of defence to come clean and apologize. He should suggest to the Prime Minister that he get a new minister of defence. This bogus question of privilege will not end a thing.

As I said earlier, I respect the rules of the House and your authority, Mr. Speaker. I would not accuse any member of deliberately misleading the House unless I was prepared to formally raise it as a question of privilege with a motion so that the House might make a decision.

I did so in the case of the minister of defence in accordance with our rules and practices. Accordingly you, Mr. Speaker, permitted me to move my motion. I noted that the government members tried to spin your ruling and claim that you did not find a prima facie question of privilege.

At the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs on Thursday, February 28, Joseph Maingot, the author of Parliamentary Privilege in Canada , was asked that specific question. He responded by saying that finding a prima facie question of privilege was the only basis on which the Speaker could allow a motion to be put. Apart from unanimous consent that is the procedure.

Just because the Speaker did not use those words does not mean there was no prima facie question of privilege. To the disappointment of certain members, a prima facie question of privilege was found. A motion was moved. The motion was adopted. The matter was then sent to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs for consideration.

In my presentation in the House and at committee, I had no choice but to use words such as “deliberately misleading” in reference to the minister's behaviour because that was my specific charge. The rules require that I make a specific charge when I raise a question of privilege.

I reviewed the presentation of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister and I see no specific charge against me. The member claims that material put in the public domain reflects on the dignity of the House. It is fair to say that it reflects on the reputation of the minister of defence. That is the consequence of being charged with such a serious offence as the minister of defence has been charged with.

It is ironic that what I assert is that the minister was deceptive in his behaviour to the House, but I have not asserted his incompetence. If the minister in his own defence claims he is neither devious nor is he incompetent, he is incompetent to understand his own briefings, he is incompetent to forward relevant information to the Prime Minister. It is ironic that he would contradict in his own testimony, the testimony of the chief of defence staff with whom he has to work so closely and that the committee would then dismiss that issue as if it meant nothing when of course it does.

The committee's behaviour and the conduct of the member for Leeds--Grenville as a member of that committee demonstrate again better than I can the irony of this situation. In their attempt to pass this process on and to move it quickly forward, what they have done is they have raised more questions about the competence of the minister of defence than the opposition could ever have raised.

In closing, I followed the procedures of the House with respect to my charge against the minister. I respected the rules. My remarks were parliamentary. What I said was said at the appropriate time in the appropriate way.

With respect to the remarks I made outside the House referred to by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister in his presentation, it should be noted that what I said outside the House was consistent with what I said inside the House and it was consistent with what I said in committee. If the circumstances allowed me to use certain words uttered inside the House, uttered inside committee, then those same circumstances allow for the same words to be uttered outside the House.

The charge against me is weak. It is a poor and desperate attempt to diffuse the real affront facing parliament today. The real affront facing parliament is the behaviour of the government and its flippant and arrogant attitude toward the processes of the House and the principle of responsible government.

As an opposition member of parliament I will continue to expose wrongdoing when I see wrongdoing, corruption when corruption is found. I shall continue to defend the dignity of the House. I will call to task any minister who deliberately misleads the House.

As Lester Pearson once said, the opposition functions as the detergent of democracy. It has been my experience that the dirtier things are, the more important it is to have good detergent.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:55 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

If I may, before recognizing the hon. member for Lakeland, the Chair has tried to demonstrate some latitude to both the member for Portage--Lisgar and of course the Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister, but I hope that with the other testimony we can focus somewhat as quickly as we possibly can on the question of privilege raised by the parliamentary secretary.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:55 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Leon Benoit Canadian Alliance Lakeland, AB

Mr. Speaker, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister has raised a question of privilege claiming that I brought up issues in public which should have been left under the auspices of the committee and dealt with by committee. The fact is that this debate was already in the public domain.

The charges against the minister are widespread and have been openly discussed in public and had been at the time we put out our press release. They have been in televised meetings of the procedure and House affairs committee. They have been talked about in scrums and in the media in quite a wide way. I have said nothing that can be considered new that has not first been said at either the procedure committee or even discussed by the minister himself outside the confines of the House of Commons. What did I say that had not been said before by someone else? I think the answer to that is nothing.

We have not said anything that differs from what was said inside or outside the House by the government itself in fact. We are simply stating the obvious and what the minister himself has already admitted to in some detail and very clearly in fact. Several major newspaper editorial boards have also come to the same obvious conclusion. I think almost everyone in the country has come to the same conclusion except the government members on the committee.

As well, I personally have heard government members say in scrums and in media interviews that there is nothing they have heard yet which constitutes contempt. In other words, they themselves outside committee have been saying that from what they have heard at committee, there is no reason to find the minister in contempt. The hon. parliamentary secretary has come to the House and has claimed that because members of the opposition have gone outside the House that somehow they are in breach of his privilege. Why on the one hand is it wrong, but when it is government members doing exactly the same thing it is not wrong? I cannot understand that.

The parliamentary secretary is simply trying to stifle open debate on this important issue. That is exactly what is going on. We have seen this type of goonish bullying lately by the government whip. This type of intimidation may work with frightened timid Liberal backbenchers but I can tell the House that it will not work with me and it will not work with my colleagues on this side, nor should it work. We will not be intimidated.

I will fight to the end for my right as a member of parliament to free speech regardless of whether or not it offends the government or that particular member. It is important that I can speak on behalf of myself and on behalf of my constituents without coming under this type of attack that I find myself under right now.

It is important to read the press release the member was referring to in his presentation to the House when he claimed this breach of privilege. It is important that the press release he referred to be read into the record. I hope everyone understands that when I read this, of course I cannot use the names as they are in the press release. What I will do is change those names to the name of the riding as is appropriate in the House. It is critical that we have all of this on the record for the public to see, for members of the House to see, and for you to see, Mr. Speaker.

The title of the press release is “Eggleton's Excuses Contradicted”.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

4 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The practice of the House is quite clear that we cannot do indirectly what we cannot do directly. If the reference is to the Minister of National Defence, maybe the member for Lakeland would like to start over.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

4 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Leon Benoit Canadian Alliance Lakeland, AB

Mr. Speaker, just after I said I would change the names to the ridings or to the position I went ahead and read the name. I apologize for that.

The press release states:

It is clear that [the] Minister of Defence...deliberately misled the House of Commons when he changed his story about when he knew about the full details of capture and turnover of prisoners by Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan, say several members of the Official Opposition.

The Canadian Alliance reasserted charges against the Minister today after testimony by Vice-Admiral Gregg Maddison before the Procedure and House Affairs Committee. Maddison, under questioning from the Alliance Justice Critic...described the briefing he gave [the Minister of National Defence] on January 21--

“The Minister was briefed that we had been on a successful mission, that we had followed the appropriate rules of engagement, that none of our people were hurt, that we had captured suspected Afghani terrorists, or al-Qaida terrorists, that they had been transported safely, that they had been turned over to the Americans”.

The press releases further states:

“The Minister's feeble defence that he did not fully understand the extent of Canadian involvement has been shot full of holes by senior military commander”, said Canadian Alliance Foreign Affairs Critic...[The Canadian Alliance foreign affairs critic] was the first witness before the committee to testify about [the Minister of National Defence's] misleading statements in the House. “Vice-Admiral Madison made it...clear today that the briefing he gave the Minister on January 21 was complete and unambiguous”, said [the foreign affairs critic for the Canadian Alliance].

“The evidence is now very clear that [the] Minister [Minister of National Defence] deliberately misled the House of Commons and Canadians”, said--