House of Commons Hansard #159 of the 37th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was flag.

Topics

Points of Order

10 a.m.

Westmount—Ville-Marie Québec

Liberal

Lucienne Robillard LiberalPresident of the Treasury Board

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for St. Albert raised a point of order yesterday, March 18, on the supplementary estimates. His comments provided the answer to the issue he raised in the point of order of whether there was statutory authority for the expenditures in question. He indicated that section 12 of the Revolving Funds Act states:

The provisions of this Act may be amended or repealed by an appropriation act.

The government is in no way attempting to legislate through the estimates process. The Revolving Funds Act for the optional services revolving fund sets a maximum limit of $200 million under section 5.3.

The government, through the supply process, sets appropriate limits within the amount authorized. Section 12 states that the provisions of the act may be amended or repealed by an appropriation act. We have several precedents in this regard.

In the Supplementary Estimates (A), 1996-97, the aggregate of expenditures was increased from $100 million to $200 million through vote 17a.

In Supplementary Estimates (B), 1999-2000, an adjustment was made to the limits in the Government Telecommunications and Informatics Services revolving fund by reducing the amount from $64 million to $45 million.

This request does not seek to extend or exceed a sum of money to be paid out. Therefore, in our view, this request is consistent with Speaker Jerome's ruling in 1977. On that basis alone, this request is completely within the legislative authority established by the Revolving Funds Act as passed by parliament.

The same argument applies to votes 7b, 8b and 9b included in this point of order.

Since Speaker Jerome's ruling, we have acted this way on many occasions and this approach has been accepted by successive Speakers.

Points of Order

10:05 a.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I thank the hon. President of the Treasury Board for the additional information she has provided the Chair. Yesterday I heard the original point of order raised by our colleague from the official opposition, the member for St. Albert.

That matter was taken by myself under advisement and a decision will be rendered by the Speaker later this day.

Order in Council AppointmentsRoutine Proceedings

10:05 a.m.

Halifax West Nova Scotia

Liberal

Geoff Regan LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table, in both official languages, a number of order in council appointments made recently by the government.

Government Response to PetitionsRoutine Proceedings

10:10 a.m.

Halifax West Nova Scotia

Liberal

Geoff Regan LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36(8) I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the government's responses to two petitions.

Questions on the Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

10:10 a.m.

Halifax West Nova Scotia

Liberal

Geoff Regan LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, Question No. 108 will be answered today.

Question No. 108—Routine Proceedings

10:10 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Carol Skelton Canadian Alliance Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK

Can the Department of Human Resources Development provide, for fiscal years 2000-01 and 2001-02, the complete list of grants and contributions by federal constituency including: ( a ) the amount given; ( b ) the name and address of each recipient individual, company, or organization; ( c ) the program under which each amount was awarded; ( d ) the number of jobs created, if applicable; ( e ) the purpose of the funding; and ( f ) the type of funding (i.e. grant, repayable contribution etc.) and the date given?

Question No. 108—Routine Proceedings

10:10 a.m.

Laval West Québec

Liberal

Raymonde Folco LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Human Resources Development

Human Resources Development Canada, HRDC, is committed to being open and transparent in providing information to Canadians about the management of grants and contributions.

HRDC has been asked to provide the complete list of grants and contributions by federal constituency for 2000-01 and 2001-02.

Information regarding grants and contributions from HRDC is not normally tracked by federal constituency. Considerable effort has been expended in developing a new database to ensure complete and accurate information that can be compiled and made available to Canadians. The new database will be the source of information for future releases of information about HRDC’s grants and contributions by fiscal year.

Information is being compiled for fiscal year 2000-01 and will be posted on HRDC’s Internet site by June 2002.

The information for fiscal year 2001-02 is not yet available as the fiscal year ends on March 31, 2002. Once the information is available for 2001-02, it will be compiled and posted on HRDC’s Internet site shortly thereafter.

Questions Passed as Orders for ReturnsRoutine Proceedings

10:10 a.m.

Halifax West Nova Scotia

Liberal

Geoff Regan LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, if Question No. 105 could be made an order for return, the return would be tabled immediately.

Questions Passed as Orders for ReturnsRoutine Proceedings

10:10 a.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Is that agreed?

Questions Passed as Orders for ReturnsRoutine Proceedings

10:10 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Question No. 105—Routine Proceedings

March 19th, 2002 / 10:10 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Werner Schmidt Canadian Alliance Kelowna, BC

What was the total amount spent by each federal government department and agency on wine products for the years 1997, 1998, 1999, and 2000; and, for each year, what was the amount spent on: ( a ) Canadian produced wine and ( b ) foreign produced wine?

(Return tabled)

Questions on the Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

10:10 a.m.

Halifax West Nova Scotia

Liberal

Geoff Regan LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, I ask that the remaining questions be allowed to stand.

Questions on the Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

10:10 a.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Is that agreed?

Questions on the Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

10:10 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:10 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Bob Mills Canadian Alliance Red Deer, AB

moved:

That, in the opinion of this House, the government should not ratify the Kyoto Protocol, or bind Canada to its emissions reduction quotas, since:

(a) Canada’s principal economic competitor, the United States, together with most of the world’s developing countries, would not be bound by the Protocol’s emission reduction quotas;

(b) ratification of the Protocol would impose massive costs on the Canadian economy and result in severe job loss; and

(c) the Kyoto Protocol would do little or nothing to benefit the environment.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:10 a.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Since today is the final allotted day for the supply period ending March 26, 2002, the House will go through the usual procedures to consider and dispose of the supply bills. In view of recent practices, do hon. members agree that the bills be distributed now?

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:10 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:10 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Bob Mills Canadian Alliance Red Deer, AB

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to speak to one of the most important issues facing Canadians in the coming months, whether or not Canada should ratify the Kyoto protocol.

Our decision in this regard should not be taken lightly. Billions of dollars, hundreds of thousands of jobs and even the natural environment itself are at stake on this issue. Indeed, the very fabric of our society may be damaged irreparably if we yield to international and domestic pressure and ratify Kyoto without thoroughly examining the relevant economic, social and environmental implications.

For the sake of future generations of Canadians, we must take the time to carefully and publicly assess the treaty and its implications before making any decisions at all.

In November of last year I put forward in the House a private member's motion which stated:

That, in the opinion of this House, the government should renew discussions on climate change through the development of a new transparent, accountable consultation process, based on sound science and economic study, that results in realistic goals for carbon emissions reduction.

The government ignored that motion and it has led to the predicament that we find ourselves in today.

Provincial premiers, industry groups and all thinking Canadians are demanding that proper studies be done before the government decides whether or not to ratify Kyoto.

The Liberals waffle on the issue. The Prime Minister and the Minister of the Environment tell us that their goal is to ratify the accord. The Minister of Natural Resources said that depending on the results of the current studies and promised consultations we may or may not ratify. The government's target dates for ratification also constantly change.

First, the government said that it wanted to ratify by the G-8 meeting in Kananaskis in June. Then it said no, that it would be September in time for the environmental conference in Johannesburg. Later it said that it wanted it ratified before the end of 2002. Now it says that it does not know. The natural resources minister even said last week that there was no deadline to meet at all. No wonder Canadians are confused about the government's intentions.

Today I would like to address several key points. First, I will discuss the dangers of ratifying before we have completed thorough consultations and developed a sensible implementation plan.

Second, I will describe how Kyoto is dangerous in that it takes our attention away from the way in which humans have always reacted to climate change, namely through adaptation.

Third, I will outline how extensive research and development into cleaner energy technologies will give Canada a far better bang for its buck than an enormously expensive climate change treaty.

Finally, I will describe how adherence to the Kyoto accord would actually damage Canada's environment.

First, the risks of premature ratification. If Kyoto is ratified without thorough and transparent studies and consultations, Canada runs some very serious risks indeed. The economic uncertainty would lead to new investment projects being cancelled. This is already happening and is something business analysts warned could be catastrophic for the future of Canada.

Without an understanding of the real costs and an informed agreement among Canadians that such a sacrifice is worthwhile, we would see significant divisions open up within our country: oil producing regions against central Canada, consumers against producers and ultimately Canada against the U.S.

It is also important to realize that if we ratify Kyoto, the protocol will legally bind Canada to reduce its emissions to 6% below 1990 levels. One has to wonder what will happen if after ratifying we then do not meet our treaty obligations. This will almost certainly happen if we have not agreed upon a realistic and comprehensive plan beforehand.

The international sanctions and penalties that could be imposed on Canada are yet unknown. However they would undoubtedly be far more serious than the political fallout of simply not ratifying in the first place. Even while promising proper consultation and studies before ratifying, the Minister of the Environment reminds Canadians that the government can simply go ahead and ratify without the support of the provinces.

He is right. The government does have the authority to ratify international treaties on its own. However, doing so would be a big mistake since the environmental and energy policies required to actually meet Kyoto fall under the jurisdiction of the provinces. Without provincial support, how could the government propose to implement Kyoto?

The government could introduce policies through the tax system or through transport policy. It could also go to court to seek authority to proceed under the peace, order and good governance clause if it can make a case that it is a critical issue of Canadian governments. Either way it is very messy.

Ratification is permissible even if the federal government does not have prior agreement from the provinces and an implementation plan, but actually implementing policy would be grounds for a lawsuit by the provinces. Alberta is already considering legal action.

There are so many important and unanswered economic questions about the impact of Kyoto that we would need several years to properly assess the treaty. The fact that the Liberals feel in a rush to ratify is unquestionably their own fault. After all they are the ones who have delayed, obstructed and denied proper debate on Kyoto throughout the four years since they signed the accord. The government cannot seriously expect Canadians to waive their right for a proper and public cost benefit analysis just because the Prime Minister wants to play hero on the international stage.

The government has apparently accepted the myth that we can magically stop the earth's climate variations by simply fiddling with our carbon dioxide emissions. In putting its faith in Kyoto to accomplish this impossible task, the government has diverted us from properly considering the ways humans have always coped with change, whatever its cause, speed or direction, and that is through adaptation and movement.

Regardless of what happens to greenhouse gas emissions, we will unquestionably have to develop new crops through biotechnology, new methods of irrigation and habitation and recognize that we cannot afford to defend all our human and natural habitats against change.

A good example of adaptation is illustrated by a NASA funded study that found that cotton yields are likely to increase in the southeastern United States if carbon dioxide levels continue to rise as projected. However benefits such as these will be realized only if farmers can adapt their agricultural practices to resulting climate change.

What is the government doing to encourage adaptation? Not much. It says it is worried about the prairie drought. How about an honest evaluation of the state of the prairie irrigation infrastructure. It says it is worried about the Saguenay floods. How about looking at flood management infrastructure? These are real responses that are needed regardless of the role, if any, of fossil fuels.

Money wasted on Kyoto is money that cannot be spent on valuable adaptation measures. Adopting policies that would force up the costs of energy for farmers will not help them with strategies to deal with their water shortage.

Internationally, the situation is even more ridiculous. If the funds that would be needed for the developed world to follow Kyoto were used to help those less fortunate than ourselves, we would pay off the public debt of the 49 poorest countries of the world. Alternatively, the money wasted on Kyoto could provide clean drinking water for everyone in the developing world. We have a responsibility to help these countries develop economically. The more developed they are, the better they can adapt.

If global warming is going to happen, Kyoto will not stop it or even slow it down by any measurable amount. Estimates are about six years.

However, by reducing real incomes and economic growth, Kyoto would make everyone less able to adapt to any climate changes that do occur, regardless of the cost.

Clearly, we need a new national and international strategy for constant technological adaptation to environmental change, remembering always that it is the poor who suffer most from these changes.

Part of our adaptation to the new world we are approaching would involve gradual movement away from fossil fuels toward renewable, relatively clean energy sources. I am not talking about pie in the sky approaches to quickly replace major nuclear or coal burning facilities with solar or wind power. That would require enormous land areas and produce significant amounts of pollution just in the building of such massive facilities.

I am speaking about the use of alternative energy to supply what will at first be modest amounts of localized power. Examples would include using solar energy to heat water and to provide space heating in residential and commercial facilities. I am also referring to the further development and implementation of fuel cell technology in automobiles and other forms of transportation. Already we see hydrogen fuel cells being used in buses in Vancouver. By 2004 we could be able to buy fuel cell powered automobiles directly from car dealerships. We need much more support for this industry to allow this to actually happen.

In the present climate of uncertainty and heightened security it also makes sense to support the continued development of other relatively clean domestic energy sources such as natural gas, ethanol and hydro. It is fitting that I am able to speak in the House immediately after attending the Globe 2002 conference in Vancouver last week. The future was unfolded in front of us as speaker after speaker demonstrated the new technologies that would help us solve our environmental problems. Yet one got the numb feeling that the government was not there to listen and could not understand the direction we must take. Instead, it hangs on to last century's Kyoto accord and its reliance on flawed concepts such as emissions trading.

Although alternative energy currently supplies only a tiny portion of Canada's base load, there are many ways that this situation may change significantly in the not too distant future. However to make this goal a reality, we need to dedicate more serious funding to research and development in the field. Last week the government announced $7 million for climate change technology programs. Such a small effort is hardly sufficient. The government says it has spent $1.4 billion on Kyoto and $7 million over three years on new technologies. That is disgraceful. If even a small fraction of the billions of dollars that Kyoto would cost Canada were devoted to alternate energy development, we would reap enormous benefits.

Let me use a few examples to emphasize the point.

I think one of the neat ones is where CO

2

is sequestered in the ground and pushed down to the coal beds that underlie the whole country. Those coal beds are rich in methane gas. When the CO

2

is pushed down, it pushes the methane gas out and it is then collected. Methane gas burns much cleaner than any fossil fuel we have today. That is how we can use our coal resources.

There will be some new advancements in clean coal technology. A new project using clean coal will be up and running by the year 2007. Everything that comes out of the stack will be captured and re-used. These are the technologies that the government should be involved in.

We could talk about some of the projects having to do with wind power. I had the opportunity to visit a wind farm in Germany to see how it operated. Ireland is installing a huge wind farm 50 kilometres out in the ocean. It will have huge generators producing up to five megawatts. These wind powered generators will provide enough energy for 1,000 homes. This is what is happening in the world and Canada is falling behind.

In Alberta a wind farm is being established by TransAlta . It has committed to reduce its CO

2

emissions to almost zero by 2020.

We have biomass where garbage and sewage is used to produce methane gas, which is then used to heat water, which is then used to heat homes and buildings. In Edmonton a recycling plant captures between 70% and 80% of garbage, which is then turned into compost and used to enrich poor soils.

A trial plant will be up and running in Toronto in two months which will digest garbage using bacteria. That garbage can then be used for compost. If it works, it will take care of all Toronto's garbage. These new technologies are happening but not because the government is dedicated to them.

There is a solar factory with a huge collector on top that rotates with the sun. The factory captures the solar energy and takes it into the plant. It splits the water molecule creating hydrogen which is captured in pressurized tanks. It can then be used as a fuel for factories, homes and cars. Oxygen is the end product that is given off to the environment.

This is happening and it is not happening because of Kyoto. It is happening because governments have a vision and know where they are going on this kind of technology. If we show leadership in the provision of tax incentives, public education, research and development, I believe that we will see a time when these alternatives will make a major contribution to Canada's energy mix. However, that will only happen if we are prepared to open our minds to these possibilities and excite the public about the clean energy future that would lie ahead for Canada. Industry is waiting for direction from the government.

We also need to invest in technologies that allow us to use energy far more efficiently. Here are just a few examples. We know what we could do for public transit. Railways are a far more efficient method of moving than trucks and cause less environmental damage. We need the infrastructure however.

We need to conserve far more energy than we do by turning down the heat, turning out the lights and using more efficient appliances. A good example is a 100 watt light bulb. It can produce light using 25% of the energy. Just imagine, if we changed all the light bulbs of the world we would save 75% of our electrical requirements. Instead of building new power plants, we could get equivalent benefits without any of the negative environmental effects by merely focusing on conservation.

I had my four year old grandson, Nicholas, with me for one session at the convention. It is his generation for whom we must act when we make decisions today. Those decisions must be based on the knowledge of what is possible, not the fearmongering we hear so often from the government.

Kyoto is bad for the environment. Many people believe that we should simply ratify Kyoto and get on with the business of meeting the treaty restrictions of greenhouse gas limitations no matter what the cost. After all, they say that protecting our environment is of paramount importance and we must do that for future generations. If I believed that, I could stand up here and support that as well. That is an out of date piece of contract that we are opting into that just will not work.

However most who support the Kyoto accord have yet to realize that the treaty would actually hurt our environment. Reaching Kyoto's greenhouse gas emission targets would lead to a recession in Canada and that recession would mean that existing environmental programs would be seriously compromised. Efforts to protect our rivers, lakes, soil, air and even endangered species would all have to be scaled back as the effects of Kyoto would devastate government finances.

It would also reduce our ability to help developing nations leapfrog the terrible industrial pollution levels that they will face in the coming decades. We would no longer have the resources to help them develop alternatives to the burning of dung or high polluting coal using 1950s technologies. They would be forced to continue massive damming projects and other environmentally damaging practices. It would also mean that our greenhouse gas emissions would not reduced but only omitted from other countries.

I do not have time to get into emissions trading, but obviously the damage that would cause could be tremendous.

In conclusion, I have been an environmentalist for most of my life. I have worked as a conservation biologist and have educated people about energy efficiency and resource conservation. If I believed that Kyoto would do any good for the environment, I would support it. However the treaty is an enormous mistake. It hurts Canada and indeed the whole world. All Canadians concerned about the future for themselves and their children should do everything they can to stop the Kyoto express before it runs over us all.

I look forward to the day's debate and the questions that will follow from many other speeches.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:30 a.m.

Bloc

Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—Petite-Patrie, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to begin with congratulations to my colleague, who sits on the standing committee on the Environment, for his motion and for opening up this fundamental debate on climate change.

Along with the congratulations, however, I would like him to know that I am far from being in agreement, not only with the premises of the motion, but also with calling upon this parliament to have Canada not ratify the Kyoto protocol.

I would like clarification of the third aspect of my colleague's premise, which is that ratification of the Kyoto protocol “would impose massive costs on the Canadian economy and result in severe job loss”.

In recent weeks, we have heard statements being made by various public figures, including Alberta's energy minister, who predicted a cost of $40 billion for the economy, and the Chamber of Commerce, whose estimate was $30 billion. However, there have been other studies as well.

According to Nick Marthy, a researcher, the cost for Alberta alone would be $9 billion, or an impact of 0.58% of the GDP. The recent study by Environment Canada, dated March 4, which has had press coverage, said that the impact on the Canadian economy would not be that great: 0.14% of the Alberta growth rate.

My question then is as follows: His motion states that the costs for the Canadian economy will be very high, so what is his evaluation of the costs of ratifying the Kyoto protocol?

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:30 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Bob Mills Canadian Alliance Red Deer, AB

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for the question. That is the point. Yesterday the minister tabled in the House a paper which I hold in my hand. It tells about the studies which have been done to this point. To try to justify the $300 million the minister uses such things as the $5 billion cost of the prairie drought and the $6 billion cost of the 1998 ice storm. He uses the figures to say it would not cost much.

If we had signed Kyoto and it had been in effect for the last 20 years it would not have made any difference to the figures. That is the point. Canada accounts for 2% of the world's CO

2

emissions. Unless we can get developing countries and major countries like the United States and Japan onside we will not stop the effects.

The government has a pie in the sky notion that it would stop droughts. What Canadian believes that by ratifying Kyoto the Canadian government would stop weather changes? There are ways to stop it. If we want to get rid of CO

2

we must help China do it. We must help Brazil do it. We must help Mexico do it. We must use some of the technology the Americans are developing.

Instead we put our heads in the sand and say we will sign the accord and that will fix it all. We cannot change climate that easily. That is the point. How can we estimate the costs? What has the government been doing for four years? Why are the models not here? Most of what it is doing is based on modelling anyway. It could not model the last 100 years. There is no way it could have modelled that and have been able to predict what would happen. Members can check our weather forecasting and see how accurate it is on a day to day basis.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Keith Martin Canadian Alliance Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for his speech. We are dealing with the issue of greenhouse gas emissions and global warming. The question of whether there is global warming is a valid one. The bulk of scientific experience says there is. Some say there is not. Regardless, a precautionary principle must apply. The question is, would Kyoto do the job?

Kyoto would involve the reduction of 5% to 7% of greenhouse gas emissions based on 1990 levels. The United States, the most important country dealing with the issue, has increased its greenhouse gas levels by 30% since that time.

Kyoto would not achieve the objective of reducing greenhouse gas emissions. The timeline is too rigid. The targets are too inflexible. To accomplish the objective we must take other approaches. These could include utilizing and expanding carbon sinks, utilizing new technology, and perhaps utilizing our tax structure to encourage companies to use new technologies.

The problem is that the technology we have and are developing could not be implemented for Kyoto. That is why the United States rejected it 95 to 0 in its senate, effectively killing the Kyoto protocol.

We need to be able to reduce greenhouse gas emissions over a longer period of time, even more than what Kyoto asks for. Does my hon. colleague believe the way to reduce greenhouse gas emissions in the long term, which is most important, is to encourage the development and protection of carbon sinks which include bogs and forests? Does he believe we need greater investment in research and development and new cleaner technologies? Does he believe we need to use our tax structure to encourage the private sector to utilize and embrace new technologies? Does he believe we need a renegotiated deal that would involve more flexible targets over the long term so we could bring in the United States and developing countries and have the treaty ratified? At present Kyoto does not have the international support we would like. Only one country in the developing world, Romania, has ratified it.

Does my hon. friend see that what I have mentioned would be a reasonable alternative for reducing greenhouse gas emissions over the longer term so we would be able to address global warming in a meaningful way?

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Bob Mills Canadian Alliance Red Deer, AB

Mr. Speaker, we are not arguing about climate change. Yes, there is climate change. Yes, humans are probably having an impact on it. What will we do about it? The point we are trying to make is that we need to show leadership. What is happening today?

I learned last week that the world is moving forward to new technologies. The Americans are probably leading the way in developing the technologies but the Danish and the Germans are close behind. The Canadians are not. That is because the government has not provided the direction, the leadership or the excitement. It has not involved Canadians or gotten them excited about the changes that are possible. That is the point.

My hon. colleague mentioned protecting sinks. Yes, sinks are important. Yes, we should do more with them and understand them better. However the science is not there because we have not developed it. We have used it as an excuse.

Let us look at emissions trading. We could trade emissions with third world countries. For instance, the Dutch could send $300 million to buy emissions credits. Where would the money go? It would go to the top guys in government in corrupt countries. It sure would not end up helping the environment or helping industries in those countries develop clean energy. It would go into Swiss bank accounts. The countries would never develop. They would never get cleaner. They would never get better.

If we want to fix the world's environment we must do something about it. The government must show leadership and direction.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:40 a.m.

Liberal

Julian Reed Liberal Halton, ON

Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Natural Resources.

An ancient Chinese proverb states that the journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step. The proverb is as true today as it was thousands of years ago. It is also true that there are two things on the planet human beings need: air and water. Without one the other is irrelevant.

My hon. friend from Red Deer said Canada was irrelevant because it only produced 2% of the world's emissions. That 2% is the basis for leadership in the world.

My hon. colleague said we needed more research and development and new technologies to begin to tackle what is now known as the Kyoto accord but which is an old problem that began before the turn of the last century. Does he not remember that all of Ontario was industrialized with renewable energy? Has he forgotten that Ontario became the heartland of the country with renewable energy before oil was discovered in North America in the 1870s in southwestern Ontario? Many of the technologies were mature by the turn of the century but have fallen into disrepute and disuse. Reviving the technologies would be a simple and straightforward move.

My hon. friend criticized emissions trading. He suggested the money being transferred would go to corrupt governments that would put it in Swiss bank accounts. The money would have to go to non-polluting industries. Over time this would mean a transfer of capital from polluting to non-polluting industries.

I will point out for the record that it has become timely to take action as soon as possible because three major oil companies have gone on record supporting renewable energy development. At least one of them has publicly committed $100 million and set targets for 50% of its sales to be of renewable energy within 25 years. That should say something to my hon. friend who comes from Alberta where the oil companies reside. We did not go on the record. The companies have gone on the record and are advertising it on television today.

The hon. member suggested Kyoto was dangerous and would be costly to the economy. That is economic fearmongering of the first order. Many of the problems were happening before the Kyoto accord and have been going on all through the years.

In Canada it is an established fact that there are 5,000 premature deaths a year because of dirty air. The polar ice cap is much thinner than it was. The Pacific Ocean has risen 12 centimetres. If the Pacific Ocean were to rise one metre it would displace 95 million people in China alone. This has been going on since long before Kyoto and the debate about whether there was global warming.

Insurance companies came to the government years ago and told us about the severity of insurance claims and how they were increasing every year. They believed that global warming was real, whether others did or did not.

My hon. friend talks about insufficient consultation. The minister has told the House that consultation would go on as we speak and would continue to go on. He made it very clear that within the next six weeks or so the evidence that has been accumulated to this date would be released for public consideration.

The suggestion that applying Kyoto would somehow stifle industry has to be looked at in the light of what happened historically in Ontario. International Nickel in Sudbury was told it had to clean up its act. There was much wailing, gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands in that industry. What happened as a result? International Nickel had to stop and put on its thinking cap, develop a way to utilize the sulphur that was damaging the environment around Sudbury and make money out of the technological change.

I have said this a number of times and people grow tired of the statement, but the strongest most powerful force on the face of the earth next to gravity is the status quo. It is easy to preserve the status quo. My friend talks about burying our heads in the sand. We can ignore 5,000 premature deaths. We can ignore the permafrost leaving the Mackenzie Valley and the disappearance of the Arctic ice cap. But can we?

This process began a long time ago and has accelerated as our use of combustible fuels has accelerated in the world. It will continue to accelerate. I am not so naive as to believe that somehow we will put a stop to that, but at least we can begin to turn the corner with our ingenuity and our recognition of the problem. Canadians recognize the need for parliament to do something concrete about global warming. The people recognize it just as the government does.

Now is the time to take action and not wait any longer. As William Shakespeare said:

There is a tide in the affairs of men Which taken at the flood leads on to fortune; Omitted, all the voyage of their life Is bound in shallows and in miseries. On such a full sea are we now afloat, And we must take the current when it serves, Or lose our ventures.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:50 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Bob Mills Canadian Alliance Red Deer, AB

Mr. Speaker, I really do not know where to start. First, the hon. member talked about pollution. Kyoto is about CO

2

emissions. CO

2

is a natural gas that plants use for photosynthesis. It is not a poison to humans. The hon. member should first understand what Kyoto is.

Second, he talked about the transfer of capital. The transfer of capital is a UN concept and passing it on to third world countries is what it is all about. That would be great if it would help those people in those poor countries but that would not happen.

The member talked about consultation. This document is an example of consultation. The assumptions in here are ridiculous. I have talked to the environment ministers of the provinces. They have not been consulted. If we were to talk to Canadians and ask them what they understand about Kyoto and if they were consulted I do not think they would say that they have been.

Finally, as far as industry is concerned, it is waiting for leadership. It is prepared and wants to deal with climate change. It is real and it is good for business to deal with it but it needs to know where the government is going based on facts and science.

That is what it is all about and what the member just told us deals with none of those issues in any kind of depth. It is about as shallow as I have ever heard.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:50 a.m.

Liberal

Julian Reed Liberal Halton, ON

Mr. Speaker, I challenge the hon. member to go into a chamber filled with carbon dioxide and write to me from in there. If he does not think carbon dioxide has any poisonous qualities I am not sure where he is coming from. He is the scientist and I am not but I challenge him to do that.

I also challenge him to investigate all of the work that the federal government is doing in terms of technology development, partnering with industry, which is happening as we speak.

Simply avoiding adopting these measures and taking the first step of a thousand mile journey is just a way of burying our heads in the sand one more time and going back to sleep which we have done in the past. We did it in 1979 after crude oil prices which were accelerating created a perceived crisis and then they dropped. Now my hon. friend would like us to do it again. However, I want him to talk to those three oil companies that have gone on record supporting renewable energy.