House of Commons Hansard #173 of the 37th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was mace.

Topics

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:10 p.m.

An hon. member

They didn't even choke on them.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:10 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

John Reynolds Canadian Alliance West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, BC

As an hon. member just said, they didn't even choke on them.

Why do Liberal members put up with being forced to vote against policies they believe in? In April 1998, Preston Manning told a story to the House to explain why, and I think the story is worth telling again.

Once upon a time there was a king named Jean I, who presided over a castle surrounded by a moat with a drawbridge. The inhabitants of this castle were divided into two classes: lords and ladies who occupied the front benches of the royal throne and the peasants who occupied the backbenches. One day a group of peasants, or backbenchers as they were called, went out to toil in the fields. As they crossed the moat and started down the road they passed a cave from which emerged a great dragon breathing fire and smoke. The fire consumed 50 of the backbenchers and set the rest scurrying back to the castle.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:15 p.m.

Liberal

David Pratt Liberal Nepean—Carleton, ON

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. We are all interested in hearing the hon. member's comments. However I fail to see how his fairy tales could possibly be of interest to the House given the question before us.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:15 p.m.

The Speaker

Order, please. The hon. Leader of the Opposition is tying his stories in with a point he is seeking to make in his speech. I am prepared to hear him out.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:15 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

John Reynolds Canadian Alliance West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, BC

Mr. Speaker, I guess the Liberals get so many fairy tales at caucus it is a little tough to listen to them here.

As I was saying, the fire consumed 50 of the backbenchers and sent the rest scurrying back into the castle. When King Jean was told of the terrible tragedy he resolved to investigate it himself. To help he took along two of his most trusted knights: Lady Marlene, the keeper of the royal whip; and Lord Goodriavere who had just risen to high rank through faithful service to King Jean.

As they surveyed the scene of the tragedy and saw 50 fried backbenchers they observed three things. First, they said it was too bad. Second, they saw the dragon lying dead from overexertion. Third, they noticed the dragon's fire had ignited a seam of coal in the cave from which smoke continued to billow.

Lady Marlene who is a straightforward woman said the obvious: “The dragon is dead. This is good news. Let us go and tell it to the backbenchers”. However Lord Goodriavere said not so fast. Turning to King Jean he said “I see an opportunity here to maintain and increase our control over the peasants. Let us imply, indirectly of course, that the fiery dragon still lives. We can point to the smoke belching from the cave as evidence of this. Let us tell the backbenchers that henceforth they can only go out of the castle with royal permission and under the supervision of myself and Lady Marlene, for the safety and protection of themselves and the castle of course”.

King Jean thought this was a splendid idea. Thus the myth of the fiery dragon was established to coerce and control the backbenchers of the kingdom.

Like the dragon in the story, it is a myth that a government must resign if a government bill or motion is defeated or if an opposition motion or amendment is passed. The myth is used to coerce government members, especially backbenchers, to vote for government bills and motions with which they and their constituents disagree and vote against opposition motions and amendments with which they substantially agree.

We saw this when Liberal members were forced to vote down compensation for hepatitis C victims. We saw it when they were forced to vote down their own policy to scrap the GST. We saw it when they appointed an ethics counsellor who reports directly to parliament. We saw it last Wednesday when the Liberals forced the withdrawal of a private member's bill instead of giving the House an opportunity to vote on it.

In determining the guilt of the hon. member for Esquimalt--Juan de Fuca it is important to compare his actions to other inappropriate acts. In other words, does his behaviour live up to the standards we have established and does he deserve the punishment mentioned in the government's motion?

Let us look back at the election that first brought the government to power. No motion was tabled criticizing the members who told the public they would scrap the GST and then decided to keep it. No one on that side of the House tabled a motion to admonish the Prime Minister for flip-flopping on free trade. Nothing was done about the broken promise to restore faith in good government.

That is why today in the papers we see a poll that says 71% of Canadians think government is corrupt. Ministers caught in a jam about the truth refused to resign and were never pressured by the Prime Minister to do so. How about ministers or so-called leadership candidates accepting payments from undisclosed interests to finance their undeclared leadership races? How about my favourite issue: closure and time allocation? It has been implemented 75 times. That is a higher number than under any other government in the history of this great nation. It leads to frustration.

Mr. Speaker, you had strong words to describe the abuse of time allocation and closure when you were in opposition. On February 19, 1993 you said:

What we have here is an absolute scandal in terms of the government's unwillingness to listen to the representatives of the people in the House. Never before have we had a government so reluctant to engage in public discussion on the bills brought before this House...I suggest that the government's approach to legislating is frankly a disgrace. It cuts back the time the House is available to sit and then it applies closure to cut off the debate.

If I did not know it I would have thought the Chair was talking about the present government. He would have to work a lot harder because the list of the present government is long compared to the Tory government of the past.

Mr. Speaker, I have one more quote from you. It is a good example of how closure frustrated even a patient man such as yourself. On April 23, 1993 you said of the use of closure:

I suggest this is not the way to run Parliament. This is an abuse of the process of the House.

Mr. Speaker, I agree with you. When a government abuses the process as it did with the private member's bill for the hon. member for Esquimalt--Juan de Fuca it results in frustration. It is no way to run a parliament.

I will go over a couple more examples. As hon. members will recall, there was to be an independent judicial inquiry into the Somalia affair. The minister of defence shut it down. Then the Prime Minister decided it would be best if he did not testify before the APEC inquiry. There was also a certain phone call to the president of the Business Development Bank of Canada. I am sure the Chair would agree these actions are better suited for a motion of contempt than the actions of the hon. member for Esquimalt--Juan de Fuca.

My party has raised many questions of privilege of the House on important matters that attacked the authority and dignity of the House but no action was taken. Not one Liberal stood to support this institution. I will cite a few examples.

Do hon. members remember when the Minister for International Trade sent out a press release on March 30, 1998 entitled “Marchi Meets with Chinese Leaders in Beijing and Announces Canada-China Interparliamentary Group?” At the time there was no Canada-China interparliamentary group. The minister gave the impression the association existed when parliament had not approved it. That is a fine example of the respect the Liberal government gives to parliament.

Let us not forget the naming of the head of the Canada Millennium Scholarship Foundation by the government before there was legislation to set up the foundation. Did the government think this dismissive view of the legislative process was an affront to parliament? No, it defended its actions.

I could supply the House with many more examples. However I will now turn to cases that involved the conduct of hon. members and cases found to be prima facie. In this parliament alone we have had three questions of privilege involving ministers. The Chair found all three to be prima facie. As a result they were referred to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

Let us examine the three cases. First, the present Minister of Health when she was minister of justice leaked the contents of Bill C-15 to the media before it was tabled in the House. She was found to be in contempt by the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs but the committee declined to recommend a punishment. It instead gave her a warning. The committee suggested if it ever happened again it would not be so generous. Let us compare this to the current case. They are both affronts to parliament but the Liberal minister received no punishment. She was told not to do it again. She received a mere slap on the wrist.

Second, the same minister was up on the same charge for leaking the contents of Bill C-36. The committee concluded she could not be responsible because it could not find the guilty party who leaked the bill. That is so much for ministerial responsibility. The minister got away twice without punishment.

Third, the minister of defence made misleading statements in the House. This is normally considered a grave matter. What was the outcome of the question of privilege? The Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs essentially whitewashed the whole affair. The minister got off without having to receive any punishment whatsoever.

Let us go back to the 35th parliament. We had a case where a Bloc member, Mr. Jacob, wrote a letter to Quebecers in the military suggesting they defect and join a separate Quebec army in the event the referendum result turned out to be a yes. Do hon. members remember that? A Reform member, Mr. Hart, rose in the House and charged Mr. Jacob with sedition. The Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs considered the matter. The Liberal majority, afraid to upset anyone in a post-referendum atmosphere, concluded that contempt had not occurred and no punishment was deserved.

Let us imagine that. In the U.S. the member would have been sent to prison and put on death row. In Canada we get more upset over someone grabbing the Mace. At least the hon. member for Esquimalt--Juan de Fuca has apologized. Mr. Jacob never apologized to the House for his conduct.

Let us look an identical case which occurred in the 34th parliament. In a similar moment of frustration Ian Waddell grabbed the Mace as the Sergeant-at-Arms was carrying it out of the House. The next day the government House leader moved a motion requiring Mr. Waddell to appear before the bar of the House to be admonished by the Chair. If that was the punishment for touching the Mace in the 34th parliament why is the government House leader in this parliament recommending a more severe punishment?

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:20 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

That is what he said.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:20 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

John Reynolds Canadian Alliance West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, BC

No, it is not what he said.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:20 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

He was brought to the bar.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:20 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

John Reynolds Canadian Alliance West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, BC

Mr. Waddell was never brought to the bar to apologize. He was brought to be admonished, not to apologize. A very different statement.

It is interesting that Mr. Waddell was from British Columbia as is my hon. colleague. That should outline to members on the other side the frustration members from western Canada have with the House. They have to go to such lengths because of frustration at the way they are treated in the House.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:25 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Gary Lunn Canadian Alliance Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

No respect.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:25 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

John Reynolds Canadian Alliance West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, BC

There is no respect for western Canadians or their ideas. That is why frustration builds and these things happen.

In the last parliament a number of MPs criticized the Speaker and their criticism was reported in the media. The issue was with regard to the small Canadian flags the Speaker ordered off the desks of the members. As members may recall, the hon. member for Elk Island led the charge. He insisted he be allowed to keep his flag on his desk after the Speaker ruled the flag to be a prop. The matter was referred to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. The members accused of contempt apologized, the committee accepted their apologies and no punishment was doled out.

The hon. member for Esquimalt--Juan de Fuca has already apologized for his conduct but for some reason the government is refusing to call off the dogs. It is pursuing the matter in an unprecedented way. It is difficult to find cases where a member has been punished unless we consider the Louis Riel case. Riel was expelled from the House twice because the House believed him to be an outlaw and a felon. I do not think the hon. member for Esquimalt--Juan de Fuca is an outlaw.

How about the Fred Rose case of 1946? He was convicted and sentenced to six years in prison for conspiring to commit various offences under the Official Secrets Act. Since he was in jail and could not participate in the proceedings of the House, the House vacated his seat. The crime of the hon. member for Esquimalt--Juan de Fuca hardly stacks to those of Mr. Rose.

However the hon. member for Esquimalt--Juan de Fuca does serve time. In the summer and other times he volunteers in hospitals and helps the poor and underprivileged for no pay. This gives us an understanding of how out of character what he did last week was. He only did so because of the frustration he has experienced in the House at the actions of the government across the way.

I will sum up. Punishment is not necessary when ministers mislead parliament, when they leak the contents of bills before they are tabled in the House, or even when a member attempts to get the military to defect. These acts are not worthy of punishment by the Liberal government. Yet it thinks grabbing the Mace deserves a penalty. I will let the public judge the government and its House leader on that one.

Let us visit other behaviours the government considers acceptable in comparison to what the hon. member for Esquimalt--Juan de Fuca did. No one on that side of the House, except maybe the Prime Minister, felt insulted when the chief government whip attacked our democratic traditions by forcing her members and threatening opposition members on the finance committee to vote for a chairman no one wanted.

What about how the Minister of the Environment respected the work of the environment committee on Bill C-5? The bill was changed all around. The committee worked together, got it done and it came back to the House a totally different bill.

Do members remember when we raised the issue of Mr. Gagliano having told the House he did not interfere with the operation of crown corporations when he in fact interfered with the awarding of contracts at Canada Lands when he was minister? Members on that side of the House could care less about that. Ethical behaviour by ministers means absolutely nothing to them.

It is a tradition of the House that members give truthful information to parliament. Does the government care about that? Obviously it does not. In case members do not believe me, I direct the House to a report of the procedure and house affairs committee dealing with the misleading statements of the Minister of National Defence.

As members will recall, the hon. member for Vancouver Centre when she was minister announced that crosses were burning on the lawns of Prince George. Did we entertain a motion like the one we are entertaining today? Does anyone think the people of Prince George are more insulted by what the hon. member for Esquimalt--Juan de Fuca did with the Mace than what the member for Vancouver Centre did in the House? I doubt it very much.

What about when the hon. member for Thornhill accused the hon. member for New Westminster--Coquitlam--Burnaby of treason? That might be considered a disrespectful comment levelled at a member of parliament. The same member called members of my party things I could not even mention in the House because they are so out of line they are unparliamentary.

Did the government House leader draft a motion of contempt to condemn the hon. member for Scarborough Southwest who told a veteran he would not receive any help because he did not vote Liberal? We never saw a motion on that one, yet it was one of the largest affronts to parliament I have ever seen. There was never a motion on the issue. We accepted his apology and let it alone.

Should we have called government members before the bar to explain why they tried to suppress the auditor general's report before the last election, why they threatened the information commissioner's staff, or why they threatened the fire chief and Deputy Chief of Defence Staff? If we did I missed it.

Do members think that the soldiers in Afghanistan care more about the mace or do they care more about having the proper uniforms and safer helicopters?

Do members think the unemployed softwood lumber workers worry about this issue or do they want to resolve a trade dispute?

My party has a motion on the order paper for tomorrow that calls on the government to introduce legislation to protect children from sexual predators. We should be discussing how to protect our children and punish predators, not considering a motion to punish one of our members who in a moment of anger hoisted the Mace above his head.

The member for Esquimalt--Juan de Fuca was wrong. He apologized. The issue should be closed.

I suggest that the government's preoccupation with the symbolism of the Mace should best be referred to the followers of Freud. Perhaps they can offer a better explanation as to why the government members are so excited over there today.

I would like to move an amendment to this motion. I move:

That the motion be amended by replacing all the words after “That” with the following:

“the actions of the member for Esquimalt--Juan de Fuca are found to be in disregard of the authority of the Chair and a contempt of the House and in keeping with tradition, and since the member has made a proper apology, no further action is necessary.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:30 p.m.

The Speaker

Resuming debate on the amendment.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:30 p.m.

Bloc

Michel Gauthier Bloc Roberval, QC

Mr. Speaker, my speech will be far shorter than that of the leader of the Canadian Alliance. The motion we have before us is quite simple. From listening to the Leader of the Opposition, I got the impression that the motion was a condemnation of the hon. member for Esquimault--Juan de Fuca, one excluding him from parliament, banishing him forever, who knows. But no, the government's motion strikes me as reasonable.

The motion calls for a member to apologize for having laid hands on a symbol which represents the very authority of the Speaker. This strikes me as the minimum. I would, however, like to take a few moments to offer my party's view on this.

We in the Bloc Quebecois are not particularly enamored of the institution of the Canadian parliament, but it seems to us that it must be respected, as all of the world's parliaments must be respected. I have already said in this House, and repeat it now for those who did not hear me, that where there is no longer respect for parliament, differences can only be settled by conflict.

I would simply like to remind my distinguished colleagues that the Mace is not that metal object we see at the end of the table. That is not what is at issue. The Mace is the symbol of the Speaker's authority. To come up to the mace and take hold of it is tantamount to announcing to the House, and to the person who directs us, “I no longer recognize your authority as Speaker”. Moreover, when the House goes into the committee of the whole, the first thing that happens is that the Mace is removed and placed under the Table.

There may be some people listening to us who will wonder, “What point is there to an attachment to such symbols?” When difficult situations arise, when there is a crisis, our behaviour is guided by symbols and traditions, over and above wisdom, over and above political impulse.

I therefore do not believe that this act was appropriate under the circumstances. I do not believe it can have done anything positive for the cause of the Canadian Alliance that someone took it into his head to pick up the Mace and then return it to its place. In our opinion, this denotes disrespect for an institution that merits respect.

It is true that the government often takes the standing orders too far, tabling motion after motion in order to hold up the work of the House. It is true that committee chairs take full advantage of their authority to prevent certain questions from being asked or certain things from being done. But it is then up to us to amend the standing orders or to bring it to the attention of the public, explaining that the government, or sometimes the opposition, is using the standing orders to prevent the exercise of democracy.

Not that long ago, when the government House leader was the member for Glengarry--Prescott--Russell, we reviewed the standing orders of the House together. I myself have done quite a bit of work on this. I had changes made which I wanted to see and which improved parliamentary democracy, but I do not recall the Canadian Alliance, or any other party, saying that the standing order invoked by the government House leader was a bad one. Overuse at a particular point in time should not be a reason for abolishing not the standing order, but this authority, or violating the fundamental rules of parliament. That does not strike me as a good idea.

That having been said, I do not want the member in question to be considered as having committed a crime against a person. We must simply understand that his emotions at the time caused him to take a regrettable action.

What he did was unacceptable, in my opinion, because if this were what happened whenever a parliamentarian got excited or felt that his privilege was being violated or that the government had done the wrong thing, we would be constantly grabbing the mace, or whatever, or throwing things. I do not know what sort of impression people would have of parliament if we behaved like that.

If one does not agree with what is going on here, if one feels that the government has gone too far or that the Chair's rulings are unacceptable, one can leave the House—which the Alliance has done—or even meet with those involved to express one's dissatisfaction.

But if every time the person speaking to you was not happy with the government's decisions, they had to pick up the mace, I think I would ask to have my desk moved a little closer, because that is how things would work. But that would be ridiculous. Imagine if we behaved like that, showing our displeasure in the most outlandish ways whenever we were not happy.

Personally, I do not appreciate this kind of excess. I believe that we have other parliamentary means, including or abstention. I believe that a verbal demonstration of discontent, within the limits of the acceptable, is sufficient. But please let us control our excesses and our impulses to express ourselves in every imaginable way, otherwise we will not have a parliament, we will have a free-for-all.

The act that the member committed was not so serious an act that he should be punished forever. However, from our perspective, the member did commit an error in judgment that should not have happened.

Furthermore, the government is merely asking the member to appear at the bar of the House and make an official apology, since the act was an official one. It is official, it happened in front of everyone, so the member must apologize in a very official manner.

As far as I am concerned, the government motion seems perfectly reasonable. The member should be as well. And, if he is a distinguished parliamentarian—which I believe him to be—he should do as I would do if I were in his shoes. I would appear and say, “yes, Mr. Speaker, let us put an end to this. Let us not waste time. I reacted in an exaggerated manner, I overstepped my rights. I recognize this. It was done out of impulse. I apologize and I ask my peers to excuse me”.

The government is reasonable in its request. Our colleague should be reasonable in his reaction. He stands to gain nothing in personal prestige, nor in terms of his legacy. Nor has he anything to gain from trying to shirk his responsibilities. I believe that the situation is being resolved in the right manner and, personally, it is for this reason that I will support the motion as moved by the government.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:40 p.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Mr. Speaker, I would like to continue in the same vein as my colleague for Roberval. With respect to the situation of our colleague, the hon. member for Esquimalt--Juan de Fuca, the motion calls for him

—to be suspended from the service of the House until such time as he appears at the bar of the House to apologize in a manner found to be satisfactory by the Speaker for his actions in disregard for the authority of the Chair and in contempt of the House.

In one way I am pleased to speak to this matter, but in another I feel regret. Those of us in opposition sometimes become frustrated. I would even venture to say that even government backbenchers sometimes become frustrated as well.

In this case, a private member's bill was involved. I have the greatest respect for anything that involves an individual member. When a motion or bill originates with a private member, this must hold some meaning in the House of Commons, just as the Mace holds some meaning in the House of Commons, in my opinion. It represents the authority of the Speaker.

When the government acts as it has been acting, for example by amending a motion or a bill that has originated with a private member, this does lead to frustration. This is regrettable, but I do not think it should justify the action taken by our colleague from the Canadian Alliance. This is no reason to lay hold of the Mace and raise it before the Speaker.

There have been occasions when I have been frustrated—I think it has just happened on one or two occasions since I have been an MP—but it did not make me act in ways that I might regret, or that would require me to apologize. When one does act in such a way, one must face up to the consequences. It is therefore desirable for the hon. member of the Canadian Alliance to apologize on his own without being forced to do so.

There is one way the problem can be solved. If a member is not happy with the way a private member's motion or bill is handled in the House, the matter can be raised in the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, in order to try to find a solution the members of the House of Commons will find satisfactory.

An amendment to the government motion has been introduced.

The amendment reads:

--“the actions of the member for Esquimalt--Juan de Fuca are found to be in disregard of the authority of the Chair and a contempt of the House and in keeping with tradition, and since the member has made a proper apology, no further action is necessary”.

That is not the tradition, since the Speaker already has authority. The following was taken from the House of Commons Procedure and Practice :

On October 30, 1991, furious after missing a vote, Ian Waddell (Port Moody—Coquitlam) attempted to take hold of the Mace as it was carried out of the Chamber at the end of the sitting.

He did not even touch the Mace. He attempted to grab it. I read on:

This act was found to be an attempt at filibuster, and was viewed as a challenge to the power of the Chair to adjourn the sitting. After having found it to be a prima facie case of contempt, the House adopted an order finding Mr. Waddell guilty of contempt and calling him to the bar to receive a reprimand from the Chair. (Debates, October 30, 1991, p. 4269-4270; October 31, 1991, p. 4271-4285 and 4309-4310). As a member, he could have been reprimanded in his place, which would have been customary.

That would be the tradition to which the Canadian Alliance referred. I continue:

But in this case, the motion adopted by the House specified that the member had to appear at the bar.

I believe that in this case, this is the only respectable thing to do, that the member appear at the bar and make an honourable apology. Then, I believe that everything would be in order again.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:45 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Peter MacKay Progressive Conservative Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS

Mr. Speaker, it is with some regret that I rise to take part in this debate. I think we have gone far afield now from what should have taken place with respect to the dealing of this matter within the House.

Certainly the Mace is of undeniable procedural significance to which members who spoke previously have referred. What took place last Wednesday was I think properly deemed to be contempt of the House and something that brought the Chamber into disrepute.

I want to stay away from a lot of the partisan diatribe that we heard from the leader of the official opposition and House leader, and I hasten to add, a former speaker of the British Columbia House of assembly. Yet he referenced the previous Progressive Conservative government of which at one time he was a member before he began his legendary political bed-hopping.

He made reference of course and castigated the government with respect to some of its actions and contempt. That is a strong word but appropriate word with respect to what took place that provoked the member for Esquimalt--Juan de Fuca to the action that he undertook. Yet the previous speaker from the Alliance in this Janus faced justification of the action, really distracted from the issue at hand.

Of course the oldest trick in the book is to accuse the accuser. He compounds the contempt when he starts naming the cause as just and justifying the end. As all members know, we break oath with this place when we bring disrepute to the Chamber.

We could all easily reference some of the reversal positions of his own party and the public promises that were made to bring a new level of decorum to this place. We know about the denial of the pensions, the denial of the perks of office, the Stornoway that none of them were going to live in, including the hon. member who gave his remarks in the House, not going to take the chauffeur driven limousines, going to bring a new decorum, having Mexican hat dances outside the Senate, painting jalopies with Canadian flags and circling the parliamentary precincts and throwing flags on the floor of the House of Commons, all of that. The members of that party do not like to talk about that any more because that is part of their ancient history, the reformed reformers.Yet it is all there.

I hasten to add that some of their own members were outside of caucus for remarks seen as unbecoming. They asked to come back but were asked to give a very contrite and public apology, and yet the same standard should not apply. The same standard should be glossed over now. When one of their own members is accused, there should be no contrition.

I would not want anyone to take from my remarks that I condone or support the government's action in killing the private member's bill which is the subject of this. It was not the proper action, yet this was not a legitimate form of protest.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:50 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Darrel Stinson Canadian Alliance Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. While I listened to the hon. member, he said that we threw a flag on the floor. That is totally false. It was the red book and it deserved to be thrown on the floor.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:50 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Respectfully to the hon. member for Okanagan--Shuswap, that is not a point of order. It is a matter of debate and the debate is going to continue. However I sincerely trust that this debate now will be conducted in the finest parliamentary tradition of which we are all capable. The hon. member for Pictou--Antigonish--Guysborough.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:50 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Peter MacKay Progressive Conservative Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS

Mr. Speaker, I suppose next the hon. member is going to challenge me to step outside in the truest parliamentary performance.

Back to the issue at hand--

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:50 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Dick Harris Canadian Alliance Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I agree with you. I trust that this debate can be held in a civil manner which is conducive to the respect the House deserves. Certainly that last comment by the member for Pictou--Antigonish--Guysborough was not. He should withdraw it with an apology.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:50 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I have not heard anything that I would deem unparliamentary. It is not a point of order. However, I am a very patient man and I will urge the House once again to rise to the occasion on this question of privilege so that we might resume this debate.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:50 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Peter MacKay Progressive Conservative Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS

Mr. Speaker, the issue before the House and before parliament is: how do we treat gross disorderly conduct within this Chamber?

When the member for Esquimalt--Juan de Fuca took it upon himself to become overly familiar with the Mace he crossed the line. This is not to confuse the cause with the contempt. There is simply no doubt that there was a prima facie case which exists to warrant the exception of the motion to deal with this matter. It is a particularly serious matter, one that has happened on rare occasions throughout the entire history of this parliament. In this House and in other parliaments this has consistently been treated as gross and disorderly conduct and contempt when a member seizes the Mace.

It strikes at every member and at important symbols not only of the House but of the country. His party made much of the arrival of a new level of decorum with respect when it first arrived at this institution, yet his actions betray that public commitment. It is the equivalent of stomping on a flag, or grabbing the gavel from a judge in a court that is in session or grabbing a badge from a police officer in the course of his or her duties.

I refer the Chair, as others may have, to the Waddell case of October 31, 1991, which was initially raised at page 4271 of Hansard . The House will doubtlessly have before it the entire case which climaxed with Mr. Waddell's subsequent summons to the bar. I would suggest that this was a prudent and proper way to proceed and a precedent for the Chair to consider. The House could descend into one-upmanship and chaos if this type of behaviour is tolerated unabated.

I will be the first to acknowledge that there was a very timely and sincere apology from the member for Esquimalt--Juan de Fuca. I personally, along with other members, urged him to do so and was present in the House when he made that apology. Yet given the seriousness of this occasion and given the fact that there were few members present, that it would be more appropriate if the member again made such an apology.

I am also concerned, as I think others may be, that there have been numerous statements made outside this place such as letters to the editor. There have been references to the fact that this was very much a premeditated issue, one that was planned and one that was part of a strategy.

There is another precedent. That would be the case of the Heseltine affair which took place in the United Kingdom in which a member who was subsequently deemed or dubbed Tarzan by the media seized the Mace and in some reports was seen to be swinging it over his head.

A more accurate account is found in the BBC report. That report may offer an alternative for the House of Commons. I am quoting from that brief report. It states:

Michael Heseltine famously seized the mace after a particularly heated debate (in the House of Commons) in 1976.

The evening of 27 May proved to be a particularly eventful one for the House of Commons. The government was attempting to steer its Aircraft and Shipbuilding Industries Bill through the Commons.

The Bill was hotly contested, with Michael Heseltine leading the Conservative opposition. The vote on the amendment had been tied and was lost on the Speaker's vote. The vote on the main government motion--which would have expected also to be tied--was in fact carried by the Labour Government.

At this, some of the Welsh Labour MPs began to sing “The Red Flag”. Heseltine, infuriated by the traditional Labour Party anthem, grabbed the mace and held it over his head.

He was restrained by Jim Prior, replaced the mace and left the Chamber. The Speaker suspended the sitting until the following day.

The next morning Michael Heseltine apologised unreservedly for his behaviour.

I underline the word unreservedly. A genuine apology, a genuine contrition would save the House and taxpayers a lot of bother and expense that would result from proceedings in a committee. Therefore, the member for Esquimalt--Juan de Fuca should not portray himself as a martyr here. He made what I would consider to be a timely and sincere apology. I see nothing that would prevent him from doing so again.

However we have often heard very miserable statements of apology that simply do not ring true or carry sufficient remorse for the occasion. What he has said since in his own defence of his actions and in his editorial comments I am afraid diminish that previous apology.

The member for Esquimalt--Juan de Fuca is an intelligent, learned and capable member of the House and a member that has contributed greatly in the past. He knows there is a boundary between legitimate protest against the actions of one party and the commission of a contempt against the entire House.

I do not doubt for a moment his emotion and anger, but I would suggest his actions were deliberate and planned. The boundary to which that anger was portrayed in the House was crossed. There appears to be a level of premeditation to which I referred. Walking out of the House is one thing but getting up and grabbing the Mace is certainly another.

I would urge him to purge his contempt and let us return our attention to the iniquitous government opposite. That is our job. It is not a time for righteous indignation but a time for humility and apology.

The member should know that his actions have attacked the entire House of Commons, the membership of the House and those who elect us, the crown and the Speaker of the House. In that we cannot and categorically do not support him.

There is a level of respect that should be upheld. It is not a disproportionate punishment which is being suggested by this motion for him to come before the bar and apologize to members present. Therefore, for the reasons stated, we support the motion as drafted, not as amended.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

4 p.m.

Liberal

John Bryden Liberal Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot, ON

Mr. Speaker, if the member for Esquimalt--Juan de Fuca felt a sense of injury on that day he grabbed the Mace, I, the member for Ancaster--Dundas--Flamborough--Aldershot, felt a far greater sense of injury and I did not take the Mace. For I too lost a bill but I lost a bill that day entirely, whereas the member for Esquimalt--Juan de Fuca at least had his bill referred to committee.

When I lost my bill, just scarce hours before the demonstration put on by the member for Esquimalt--Juan de Fuca, I sought unanimous consent in the House and that side, the Canadian Alliance, Mr. Speaker--

PrivilegeOral Question Period

4 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Keith Martin Canadian Alliance Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The hon. member is actually incorrect. The bill did not go to the justice committee at all and that is part of the problem. The bill was supposed to go and was blocked--

PrivilegeOral Question Period

4 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Respectfully again, that is not a point of order. It is a matter of debate as to what the facts might be, agreeably or otherwise. Members will have an opportunity as time becomes available on the floor.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

4 p.m.

Liberal

John Bryden Liberal Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot, ON

Mr. Speaker, Hansard will show that I made no mistake in my remarks. I will get back to where the member's bill went a little later in my speech.

Mr. Speaker, if I can continue, I had a bill before the House scarce hours before the member for Esquimalt--Juan de Fuca's bill that would have changed the oath of citizenship to reflect the values of the charter of rights and freedoms, of rights and liberties. When I rose to seek unanimous consent, it was jeered down by the Canadian Alliance.

Let me give you some background, Mr. Speaker. There is no doubt there is a problem with private members' business. The system is dysfunctional. There is no doubt about that at all. In my particular case, my piece of legislation I had worked on for seven years in order to change the oath of citizenship to reflect the values of Canadians. Finally in the lottery system, Mr. Speaker--