House of Commons Hansard #49 of the 37th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was aboriginal.

Topics

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

11:55 a.m.

An hon. member

Where did that come from?

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

11:55 a.m.

Progressive Conservative

Gerald Keddy Progressive Conservative South Shore, NS

Apparently the government was so secure in its knowledge that this bill would be passed simply by bringing it to the House without amendments that it could publish it for first nations and the Canadian public to look at, not as a proposed act but as an act, last summer, before Parliament, parliamentarians and critics for Indian Affairs and Northern Development had any opportunity at all to look at it.

This draft was not even a bill, much less the law of the land, but the fact that it was presented as such shows the little esteem that the government has for due process and the parliamentary regime that we are all sworn to uphold.

In closing, my final difficulty with the legislation is that once again, like many pieces of legislation that the government has passed in many departments, it enhances the power of the minister.

It is not much further down the road when ministers of the government will not need Parliament at all. They simply will be able to sit in an ivory tower somewhere, issue decrees and bypass Parliament entirely. If we continue to give the minister discretionary authority over everything then we will not have to get into that sticky, difficult job of actually governing the country or showing up for question period and answering questions that are important to Canadians.

We will continue to study the legislation. I do believe it is a step in the right direction, albeit a step that needs to be taken very carefully and with full discussion with the first nations communities across the country.

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

Noon

Canadian Alliance

Ken Epp Canadian Alliance Elk Island, AB

Mr. Speaker, I would like to commend the member for his thoughtful statements and also for filling in for his party's critic in this portfolio, who as we all know, is recuperating from a medical challenge. We certainly wish the member for Dauphin—Swan River well.

I have been interested in the native affairs portfolio for a number of years and the difficulties and the challenges which those individuals face. One of the areas I have identified in my talking with certain individuals is that they lack individual resources. In a way, it is comparable to the mayor of a town getting all the money that the individual citizens are entitled to and then doling it in the way that he feels.

One of the problems that we have heard listening to grassroots natives who live on reserves is that they do not get their money directly. They get it via the management, the band council and the chief on the reserve. It seems to me that it would be much better if the individuals were to have access to the money to which they are entitled directly rather than indirectly.

Could the member comment on that aspect of the situation?

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

Noon

Progressive Conservative

Gerald Keddy Progressive Conservative South Shore, NS

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the member for Elk Island's comments about our colleague from Dauphin—Swan River. Certainly our colleague from Dauphin—Swan River has worked hard on this and other files. We do miss his presence in the House and certainly wish him a speedy recovery and a quick return to this place.

The aspect of management of funds is different in all first nations communities. There are some great examples and there are some terrible examples. They are no different from any other level of government anywhere in the country.

I would like to comment on another point that directly comes from the hon. member's question and which was mentioned in the House in the discussion on Bill C-19. That is the whole issue of first nations land management. I supported that legislation in the House. It was an important piece of legislation. It allowed first nations for the first time to be responsible for their own reserve land.

It is unbelievable to most Canadians, to most people living in a town, a city or a municipality in this country, that before first nations on reserve could cut their fuel wood, before they could open up a gravel pit, before they could put in a septic bed, before they could dig a well, they had to get permission from the federal government, the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. There was no local authority they could go to. It was absolutely unbelievable.

It was my belief that first nations land management, even though it was not a perfect piece of legislation, certainly opened the door for more self-government. With more self-government comes more democracy, more economic opportunity, more affluence in the community and more ability for first nations to fend for themselves. Quite often with that rising opportunity comes more responsibility on behalf of the governance of first nations, including the chiefs and band councils who govern first nations.

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

12:05 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Mr. Speaker, I listened with great interest to the hon. member. He had to fill in for his party at the last moment but he has a history with this issue.

One of the important things about any change and working toward independence is the whole issue around financial management and the empowerment which is necessary to provide the means to move the communities in the direction they want to go.

I would like to hear the hon. member's opinion about the government's record with regard to financial management. We have recently seen gun control as an example. What gives the government the confidence to think that it could do a better job of financial management, given the issues like gun control that have happened in these halls?

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

12:05 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Gerald Keddy Progressive Conservative South Shore, NS

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for that question. It is a fantastic example and one that is extremely pertinent to this very issue. I am going to make one little correction because the issue is not gun control; that is what the Liberal government wants to sell it as. The issue is long gun registration. The government wants to stand in this place and say it has done its job with gun control. It has done nothing with gun control. Gun control was looked after by Bill C-17. That was the bill that involved safe storage and safe handling and actually made safer streets in the country.

The government in its wisdom has done with that piece of legislation the same as it is doing with the Indian affairs legislation. It is smoke and mirrors. The government is saying, “Believe us. We will make our streets safer because gun control has worked”. Sure it has worked. Gun control is not a bad thing. Long gun registration has cost Canadians $1 billion which could have been spent on education, safer streets, better health care or a multitude of issues.

Whenever we have a bill from the government we must beware because the devil is in the details. Gun control sounded good but in reality gun control was nothing more than a ruse to take the public's mind off the important issues of the day. It had nothing to do with public safety.

We must beware that this bill has anything to do with fiscal management, that it is nothing more than a ruse and an opportunity to put more power in the hands of the minister and that he or she will decide what is best for Canadians, because obviously the government knows best. It is the government of the day and rather than deal with the difficult issues, it will just take credit for the good governance of past regimes and fail to deal with the issues of the day.

Watch Canada's position in the world continue to be diminished. There is a reason that we are not at Camp David with Bush and Blair talking about the possibility of Canadian troops going to war. We are on the periphery of the international community. We will continue to be on the periphery. We have a diminished level of respect in the world. We are no longer a NATO ally that is listened to at the boardroom tables.

We are the country that goes to Kosovo and borrows bombs and communications equipment so we can talk to our allies. We are the country that sends troops to Afghanistan without fresh water, without food, without proper uniforms.

Anything the government does needs to be examined in minute detail. The long gun registry is a perfect example of the type of waste that is based on a good idea but is totally out of control under the hands of that regime. It is total mismanagement.

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Mac Harb Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, we are debating a very important subject. I want to indicate that on this side of the House we do not believe for a moment that we have to choose between addressing what is a social issue and what is being considered as an economic issue. When it comes to first nations, the government has consistently taken action on both fronts, if not in parallel but at a complementary time.

Bills C-7 and C-19 are not only priorities on which the government is moving ahead but also we have moved ahead in other areas such as housing, water and sewer infrastructure, economic development and education. An advisory panel has made a number of recommendations to improve education. Funding for economic development has increased from $25 million to $125 million over the past two years. This funding has leveraged in excess of $400 million in other forms of equity and debt financing and has translated into real change and made a real difference in the quality of life for our aboriginal people.

In addition this action is empowering and creates good governance which is considered the foundation of self-sufficiency and economic development for these communities.

Almost 75% of those who responded to a recent survey done by Ekos Research agreed that providing the tools for good governance will improve conditions for economic and social development.

Well-functioning communities are based on good governance structures that can respond to the needs and aspirations of their people.

This proposed legislation will encourage economic development, will foster self-sufficiency and will lead to improved living conditions in first nations communities.

These statements are not based on wishful thinking or unfettered optimism. The government has already shown concrete evidence of how the institution to be legislated through Bill C-19 will benefit first nations.

For example, as has been mentioned the experience of the Indian Taxation Advisory Board, or ITAB, which will evolve into the first nations tax commission under Bill C-19, has shown us what can be achieved when first nations have more direct involvement in their fiscal matters.

Since it was created back in 1989, ITAB has helped about 90 first nations enter the field of property taxation. A further 29 first nations tax systems are now in development. With the help from ITAB, first nations across Canada have raised a combined total of more than $200 million in tax revenues over the past 13 years.

These first nations have generated more than $40 million annually in revenues through their property tax regimes. First nations with the authority to tax have used this revenue to provide services, build infrastructure and create jobs and businesses in their communities.

For example, property taxes have generated the necessary annual revenues required by the Innu of Uashat Mak Mani-Utenam adjacent to the city of Sept-Îles, Quebec to support community initiatives and increase participation in the local economy. Also, major projects that have been supported since taxation have been implemented and these projects include the building of a Sobey's supermarket and a Unitotal hardware store in the on reserve shopping centre development.

The tax system of the Squamish Nation has contributed to the construction of two gymnasiums used for education and social and recreational purposes, which serve as an integral part of the community in service to residents. Squamish also demonstrates the competitive nature of first nation taxation, with tax rates comparable to those in North Vancouver.

Also, Westbank First Nation taxpayers benefit from tax revenue through the first nation's implementation of new projects such as a new water system, purchasing private lands for parks and recreation purposes, paving and maintaining band roads, and building a new gymnasium and recreation centre. Besides other major projects, Westbank First Nation has the opportunity to invest in the community and to establish capital reserve funds for future projects.

We can see that these first nations, along with others that have implemented a property tax system on reserve, are in fact providing improved services to residents and building a stable and sustainable local economy for their communities. The First Nations Finance Authority, which would be legislated under Bill C-19, has in fact grown out of a need for long term public debt financing for first nations governments in order for them to provide affordable infrastructure in their communities.

The First Nations Finance Authority was established back in 1995 and was modelled on the very successful Municipal Finance Authority of British Columbia. As my colleagues on both sides of the House have heard, the primary goal of the First Nations Finance Authority is in fact to improve access to affordable capital by pooling the borrowing requirements of first nations. By pooling their borrowing requirements, many first nations will gain access to more affordable capital which they in turn can use to improve their infrastructure to build roads, water and sewer systems and so on. The rigorous standards, lower interest rates and institutional support will ensure that first nations operate within their debt carrying capacity. This access to capital will work to the long term benefit of the community as a whole.

Some 50 first nations are also taking advantage of the deposit taking services offered by the First Nations Finance Authority, which currently operates, by the way, two very competitive investment pools worth approximately close to $10 million. These first nations are getting higher returns on their investments than would be possible if they were investing on their own.

The first nations financial management board would be supported by the capacity development activities of yet another existing institution, the Aboriginal Financial Officers Association of Canada. The Aboriginal Financial Officers Association of Canada is a national professional association that is committed to excellence in financial management for aboriginal people. It provides training, certification and professional development services to individuals who work in or aspire to financial management positions with first nations organizations. Its third annual conference recently attracted more than 600 delegates to discuss ways and means to strengthen financial management. That event was well supported by important sponsors.

As my colleagues on both sides of the House can appreciate, these services are strengthening the financial management capacity of aboriginal organizations in Canada.

For example, AFOAC has already certified some 200 individuals in its certified aboriginal financial managers program. This program was developed in collaboration with the Certified General Accountants Association of Canada and is gaining recognition as a professional designation within Canada's financial community.

As we can see, we have good reason to be optimistic about Bill C-19. This proposed legislation will enable first nations to build on the success of several existing institutions. Bill C-19 will confirm first nations jurisdiction over their finances and will provide new tools for the successful exercise of that jurisdiction. This legislation deserves the support of both sides of the House and particularly that of my colleagues on the opposition side.

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Gurmant Grewal Canadian Alliance Surrey Central, BC

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise on behalf of the constituents of Surrey Central to debate Bill C-19, the first nations fiscal and statistical management act.

Canada is one of the richest countries in the world, yet our aboriginal people live in third world conditions. The plight of first nations is a painful embarrassment to Canada. As members might know, the life expectancy of registered Indians is seven to eight years shorter than the national average. Suicide rates are twice the national average. Aboriginal peoples have an average income that is 75% less than the national average in Canada. Unemployment rates are 10 times the national average.

School dropout rates are higher and educational attainment is lower than that of any other ethnic group in Canada. First nation reserves are rife with violence, physical and sexual abuse and suicide. Unhealthy living conditions and overcrowded housing with inefficient heating and inadequate water supplies are all too often a fact of life. First nations peoples are caught in a cycle of dependency and poverty. This vicious cycle has been going on for decades.

The federal government annually spends some $7 billion on aboriginal peoples, yet their living conditions fail to improve. There is something wrong. It must be addressed. The conditions in which our first nations live and the conditions that surround their life cycle are completely unacceptable.

The Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development claims that Bill C-19 will provide the tools for economic development and for improving the quality of life on reserves. It is wishful thinking that Bill C-19 will do such a thing. I do not think Bill C-19 is strong enough to address the needs or hopes of aboriginals; it will not improve the lifestyle of natives on reserves.

The first nations fiscal and statistical management act would create four new institutions: the first nations finance authority; the first nations tax commission; the first nations financial management board; and the first nations statistical institute. Let us quickly look at each of these institutions in turn.

First, this first nations finance authority would allow first nations to establish a self-directed financial authority capable of issuing bonds and providing low interest, long term debt financing for capital projects by collectively guaranteeing the creditworthiness of participating members. Bands will collectively guarantee each other's creditworthiness, making loans available to bands for infrastructure and capital projects.

This first nations finance authority is not forecast to break even until 2010. How much the government would spend in operating this bureaucracy is absolutely unknown. We do not have any idea of how much it is going to cost. Bonds would receive an investment grade ranking, not because credit agents have faith in the self-generated earnings of bands but because they have faith in continued government transfers.

Before they can become borrowing participants, bands must meet specific financial criteria. I can guarantee that only a few will qualify. The bill would not offer any help to the vast majority of bands. It seems the finance authority is the government's attempt to avoid funding aboriginal infrastructure.

The first nations tax commission would grant bands approval to enact property tax systems on reserves. Currently the minister has the authority to approve tax bylaws. The commission would be comprised of six first nations commissioners, three non-native commissioners and a head commissioner. I am sure there is room for the government's patronage appointments there.

The initial capital costs and subsequent operating budgets of the first nations tax commission have not been disclosed. We do not have any idea of the cost. In light of recent revelations of gross overspending by the government, whether it is the gun registry or other things, hon. members will excuse me if I am reluctant to support any legislation without a full cost analysis.

The first nations financial management board would provide professional advice to those first nations that have entered the first nations finance authority borrowing pool. It would provide training and services related to policy development for all first nations. We have not been told how much it would cost to set up and operate this board.

The first nations statistical institute would provide statistical data and analysis of the social, economic and environmental condition of first nations. In the first three years of operation the first nations statistical institute is budgeted to cost over $13 million. However, taxpayers are already paying close to $600 million per year for the same services provided by Statistics Canada. Why the duplication? Why create another board or institute that would duplicate the services provided by a taxpayer funded statistical institute, or Statistics Canada? The institute I am talking about would duplicate work already done by Indian and Northern Affairs Canada and Statistics Canada. If first nations require better data, then let us provide it through existing agencies.

By creating this statistical agency, the Liberals would once again be creating separate, race based institutions that would fail to provide relief to community members who need it most. I emphasize race based institutions.

We have been seeing on a continuous basis the false initiatives coming from this weak, arrogant Liberal government. These initiatives follow the tradition of being race based, whether we talk about policies on fisheries, taxation, natural resources, the environment or even justice. When will the government understand the concept of equality for all Canadians? Let us not create different tiers of Canadians. Let us treat all Canadians equally. This is the time we must do that.

The first nations fiscal and statistical management act is asking first nations to tax their members and lease their reserves to meet the desperate socioeconomic needs of their communities. In effect the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development is forcing band councils to administer their own poverty.

Bill C-19 would mean that buildings and land could be subject to property tax if a first nation decides to go ahead and participate in the first nations finance authority. I very much doubt that the system would work. However, how it would work remains to be seen because on most reserves the first nation owns all the major buildings such as band offices, schools and band halls. In many cases there may not be much property that qualifies as taxable. When a first nation owns all the property, including the houses, it does not create much of a tax base, so this argument is not sound. The argument does not stand by itself because of the sheer volume of the revenue it will generate.

Let us remember that the vast majority of first nations have small populations. Of the 600 first nations that receive funding from Indian Affairs, 70% have less than 1,000 members and 45% have less than 500 members. We are talking about a population base that would not be sustainable to generate that revenue. We agree that a lot of communities have a crucial need for infrastructure such as communities living on reserves where there is no or dismal infrastructure development. Reserve communities have a crucial need for infrastructure money.

Poor facilities contribute to poor living conditions and are holding back development. Without proper roads and services reserve communities are passed over for economic projects. They cannot compete with surrounding communities where tremendous development has taken place, but next door on the reserve there is no development taking place, at least economic development.

In the north first nations reserves exist side by side with towns and villages and yet the economic development takes place off the reserve and not on it.

I will give an example from my own constituency. In Surrey Central the only access to Barnston Island Reserve is by ferry. The government is imposing a levy on the ferry service. Because it is an island there is no other way of communication. There are a few families who live on the island. Many of them are in the vegetable and farming business. Employees who work there must go from the mainland to the island. Even the different trucks and other vehicles going there carrying supplies for the reserve must use the ferry service, but the government is now imposing a levy on the ferry service. The residents are very upset and rightly so because they are being discriminated against. While other communities have roads and bridges this island only has a ferry that has been running for many years. Why are my constituents living on the island discriminated against? The government must review again the imposition of this levy.

Last year Indian Affairs spent over $900 million for on reserve infrastructure such as roads, schools, water and sanitation systems. Infrastructure costs are only going to increase. Money must be spent to bring conditions on reserves up to standard. Meanwhile, there are future needs that must be met if the first nations are going to become economically self-sufficient and sustainable communities.

The population of aboriginal people in Canada is growing at a more rapid pace than that of the non-aboriginal Canadian population. Indian Affairs projects that the existing Indian population would exceed 790,000 by 2008. How are our first nations going to meet the needs of their growing population if they start with such a limited tax base? Can we expect them to have enough infrastructure development by the revenue they would raise, which is in doubt, and then be able to reinvest into the communities and have the infrastructure development take place?

First nations are beginning a 100-yard dash a mile behind the starting blocks. We do not expect them to accomplish this without reasonable conditions that could be brought into the legislation. First nations must have the ability to raise their own revenue if they are to become independent, set their own priorities, and meet the needs of the people. They need to break away from their dependence upon government funding, that vicious cycle of dependency.

However, before that can happen the groundwork must be in place so that economic growth would occur. Providing that groundwork is the responsibility of the weak, arrogant Liberal government. The millions of dollars this act proposes to spend on four new institutions that I described would service but a few first nations. The money would be better spent providing clean water, sewers, housing, and better education and health care.

The act authorizes first nations communities to tax, borrow and gather data at the expense of priorities like health, education and social services. How do we expect the standard of living to improve? How do we expect that the violence, unemployment rates, health services and other evils would be eliminated? It would provide limited benefits to a small number of first nations communities at a substantial cost to Canadian taxpayers.

A majority of first nations have already rejected Bill C-19. The hon. member for Portage--Lisgar, who is the lead critic for the official opposition, has done tremendous work on this issue. I am sure that the House will be listening to his advice. I support the hon. member's amendment to withdraw the bill and refer the subject matter to the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs, Northern Development and Natural Resources.

To conclude, I move, seconded by the member for Portage--Lisgar:

That the amendment be amended by adding the following:

“and that the Committee report back to the House no later than June 13, 2003”.

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The Chair is satisfied that the subamendment moved by the member for Surrey Central and seconded by the member for Elk Island is receivable and in order.

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Ken Epp Canadian Alliance Elk Island, AB

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I think the motion was seconded by the member for Portage--Lisgar. I would really be quite content to second it but I think that was what the member stated.

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I understand the intervention from the hon. member for Elk Island, but as a general practice we try to avoid situations where the mover of an amendment is actually also included or involved in the subamendment on the same matter. For that reason the Chair took the liberty, respectfully, to select another member in the Chamber from the same party who I know is equally concerned and interested in the subject matter, because no other member spends more time in the House than possibly the Chair occupants and the hon. member for Elk Island.

We will now proceed to questions and comments.

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member from the Canadian Alliance who just shared his views with us on this bill. I would like to ask the hon. member for his views on one aspect of the bill, or actually something lacking from the bill.

Many of the first nations leaders to whom I have spoken about this particular bill have stated that one of their real reservations is that there is nothing in the bill which would act as a non-derogation clause. It is standard in pieces of legislation dealing with aboriginal people and the Indian Act to include a clause that would state clearly that nothing in the legislation is intended to affect, alter or diminish any existing rights that may be enjoyed by aboriginal people.

We note the absence of any reference to a non-derogation clause in the bill. It may in fact be deliberate because in the absence of such a clause further interpretation by the courts may interpret this as meaning that it was not the intent of Parliament to ensure that nothing in the act would diminish any existing rights.

Would the hon. member support an amendment calling for the introduction of a clause stating that “for greater certainty, nothing in this act shall be construed so as to abrogate or derogate from any existing treaty rights of aboriginal people of Canada under section 35 of the Constitution”.

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Gurmant Grewal Canadian Alliance Surrey Central, BC

Mr. Speaker, first, thank you very much for correcting my seconding the amendment. I did not realize that the previous amendment was moved by the hon. member for Portage—Lisgar.

Before I answer the question, I would like to comment on what he said during his participation in the debate. He tried to imply that the Canadian Alliance was racist, or covered us with that blanket statement, and that comes from time to time from our political opponents for political reasons.

However let me make it absolutely clear. This is the only party in the House which strongly believes in the equality of all Canadians. It is the Liberal government whose policies, from time to time, have been based on race, whether it is discriminatory head tax on immigrants or fisheries based on race. In one code the first nations people are given lesser sentences simply because of the origin of race. The system as such is based on the policies from this weak government. However the Canadian Alliance believes in equality. I am very proud to be associated with it and to follow up on the issues of equality.

Coming back to the question, this is thoughtful thinking from the hon. member and I appreciate the concern he has brought forward. Whether the missing clause will have serious effects is debatable. I would urge the hon. member to make that amendment and then we will review it. Since I have not seen the amendment yet, I cannot comment on it.

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

12:45 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Ken Epp Canadian Alliance Elk Island, AB

Mr. Speaker, I heard most of the member's speech. Unfortunately, I was detained elsewhere for a short time. He has a number of very good ideas. Would he be willing to comment further on the whole idea of equality for natives?

There is a balance to be reached here. They are claiming, probably rightfully so, certain aboriginal rights. We ought to work together with them very strenuously to ensure land claims and things like that are settled in a timely manner and in a fair way.

However, in my view there is also a background of disadvantage to them because of the fact that they are held down by various aspects of the Indian Act and we ought to set them free. We ought to allow them to compete with other Canadians on an equal basis in business, in other areas and in professions.

When I was an instructor at the Northern Alberta Institute of Technology, from time to time I had students from some of the reserves in Alberta. I always felt that they should have had better access to education when they were younger. Some had a lot of catching up to do and I think that we bear a collective responsibility for that. Equality of opportunity is very important and I would like the member to further enlarge on that aspect.

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

12:45 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Gurmant Grewal Canadian Alliance Surrey Central, BC

Mr. Speaker, it is a very important issue and also a pitiable situation in which our first nations people find themselves. Their living conditions are third world country conditions.

If we look into the overall situation, whether we are talk about the life expectancy, or lifestyle, or income, or suicide rates, or educational level or health care facilities available to them, first nations communities have been ignored for so long that the lack of development which has taken place has caused them to have lesser opportunities available to them to compete in Canada.

We have ignored human rights and property rights issues for too long. I agree with the hon. member that they do not have equal opportunities to compete for success in life. We need to provide them with those opportunities. How can we provide them? Let us look at how governments have treated them over the last 100 years.

In the last 25 years or so, almost a quarter of a century, government has been in the process of negotiating treaties. What has happened? The government has a very tough position in dealing with the treaties. The first nations communities have been negotiating and relying on consultants and lawyers. The federal government is funnelling lots of money but moving at a very slow pace. For 25 years or so, government has accomplished very little.

I am sure the minister has created an institution which helps only the lawyers and consultants. Hundreds of lawyers are working on the treaties on both sides. Why can we not have a straightforward and reasonable approach to providing facilities and opportunities for the first nations that have been suffering for so long?

Funnelling lots of money without accountability is a serious issue. The money does not reach the grassroots first nations people. It does not reach those people who are suffering. It is consumed only at the high or top level. This cycle of continuous dependency and vicious cycle must stop. We must look forward to providing reasonable opportunities for first nations, treat them as equal Canadians, give them equal responsibilities and equal rights. That is the way to go rather than create institutions, bureaucracy, lawyers and consultants.

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

12:50 p.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Mr. Speaker, I would like to point out one of the fundamental differences between the Alliance and the NDP in this issue. It is our point of view it is a bastardization of justice to treat unequal people equally. It seems to be a theme that keeps coming up from the Alliance. A former leader of the NDP once said, in dealing with this issue, “It is every man for himself said the elephant as he was dancing with the chickens”. That really says it for us.

I will ask a specific question about Bill C-19 and perhaps get a straight answer from the hon. member. Does he really believe that the interruption of these institutions will advance the goal of self-government when in fact the boards of directors of these institutions will be appointed by the minister and any taxation or spending must be at the direction and control of these new institutions which are appointed by the minister?

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

12:50 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Gurmant Grewal Canadian Alliance Surrey Central, BC

Mr. Speaker, I do not know if the chicken is dancing with the elephant or the dinosaur, but we definitely need to look at this issue more seriously. This is not an issue with which we want to play politics. It is serious and sensitive.

Talking about institutions, they can be sustainable only if they are viable institutions or if they have a base on which they can stand. If the population base is small, the revenue from the property owned by first nations will be small. How will those institutions stand?

To be reasonable, the government has to have a plan which stands on a factual basis rather than a hypothetical situation. Creating a window dressing but not accomplishing anything will not work in this case.

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

12:50 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Maurice Vellacott Canadian Alliance Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK

Mr. Speaker, for the sake of all of us, and for our listening audience, I want to do a quick review of what the first nations fiscal and statistical management act is all about.

The act creates four institutions: the first nations financial authority; the first nations financial management board; the first nations statistical institute; and the first nations tax commission.

The finance authority, known as FNFA, would issue bonds and provide low interest, long term debt financing for capital projects by collectively guaranteeing the credit worthiness of participating members. The majority of first nations bands will not be able to meet the FNFA membership criteria. For those few bands who qualify to be participants, they must use FNFA financing, even if a more competitive rate were available.

It is also noteworthy that the FNFA is not actually expected to break even until the year 2010. There is no indication to this point as to how much it will cost to set it up and operate it. That is always a concern to members of all parties and especially to those on the opposition side when we have seen the billion dollar boondoggles and a gun registry with escalating costs. Therefore, when these bills come up with no dollar figures in terms of what is required to fund it, we obviously have concerns.

It is likely that members who participate in the FNFA will not be eligible for funding from INAC or infrastructure programs. That is a bit of a concern obviously. The financial management board would provide financial services to first nations and also issue certificates to members that qualify to participate in the FNFA.

Although the priority of the first nations financial management board would be to develop and provide services to first nations and to issue these certificates, its real priority would be that of developing financial management standards to support a comprehensive system of accountability. The FMB, the financial management board, has failed to provide its operating budget estimate. Again, we are left in the dark on the costs.

At present, the Department of Indian Affairs provides professional financial services to band councils. With implementation of the FMB, those services will no longer be required and therefore INAC should save some expenditures by way of that.

The first nations statistical institute would gather and analyze data specific to first nations communities. In the very first three years alone, the FNSI is expected to cost some $13 million. It simply duplicates the services that are already provided by Statistics Canada. Too much of this goes on within government bureaucracy. They overlap and compete in claims in terms of information provided and so on. We do not think that is a good thing in this case either.

The Canadian Alliance does not support allocating resources that create a separate race based institution and we think there is some duplicity in creating this institution.

By creating the FNSI for gathering of statistics, the government is diverting resources that could address some of the other urgent priority needs of first nations populations across the country. There are health and educational needs. In fact, we were in committee this morning and heard how bands were taking resources and diverting them into other areas, away from education. Maybe that is because of the limited resources, at least that would be the explanation of some. We know education is foundational and basic. It is the biggest and most important priority in terms of the development of capacity within first nations communities. Therefore we are not okay with the diversion of funds off into other areas by way of creation of this duplicating body called the FNSI.

The act also proposes to create a taxation oversight body, known as the first nations tax commission, that would grant bands approval to enact property tax systems on reserves.

The FNTC would replace what is currently known as the Indian Tax Advisory Board which has been in operation since 1989. The FNTC would be comprised of six first nations commissioners, three non-native commissioners and a head commissioner. As it is with the FMB and the FNFA, again there is no indication as to what the costs will be for this body or how it will be funded. It concerns us that for three of the bodies thus far there has been no indication of the costs or how they will be funded.

The cost of the first nations tax commission should be maintained by its members. The Canadian Alliance supports efforts that will sustain the economic viability of first nations through the generation of own source revenue. We want to see more of that. Surely, when people generate more of their own revenues, greater accountability sets in and greater answerability is required.

The bill under discussion today would provide limited benefits to a small number of first nations communities at what we think will be a rather substantial cost because a lot of detail has not been provided to us. Our only surmise is that this will be a rather costly kind of proposition.

The bill would authorize first nations communities to tax, borrow and gather data at the expense of other priorities. I know firsthand from reserves in my province and in my constituency that those priorities are health, education and social services.

It is fair to say that infrastructure conditions on reserves are really deplorable. First nations leaders and grassroots members will agree with that. It is wonderful to see that there are exceptions but, regrettably, some reserves have third world conditions which must be addressed as part of INACs approach to economic development.

Supporters of the bill defend, in particular, the first nations finance authority bond issuing scheme by comparing it to the province of British Columbia's successful financial administration act which allows municipalities to collectively guarantee one another's credit worthiness. That would be done among bands, so to speak.

However there is a crucial difference, in that cities can guarantee their bonds with hard collateral assets, whereas section 89 of the Indian Act prohibits bands from leveraging their hard assets as collateral. It is banned, forbidden, verboten. There is a problem with this. It is not a fair comparison at all. It is not analogous to B.C.'s successful financial administration act.

Bonds would receive an investment grade ranking, not because credit agencies have faith in the self-generated earnings of Indian bands, but rather because they have faith in the continued transfers from the government. That is a somewhat depressing thought. We believe that bands should, over a course of time, be able to generate enough earnings on their own.

In order to become borrowing participants in the first nations finance authority, bands would need to meet certain financial criteria. Very few bands across the country are able to fulfill those requirements. The ones that can will already be in a competitive financial position. Bill C-19 does not really help the vast majority of bands in Canada.

The first nations statistical institute would duplicate the work already done by INAC and Stats Canada. Taxpayers should not be expected to fund yet a third set of conflicting and competing data. The primary object of creating FNSI was to provide the necessary data to help formulate first nations community policies. However, rather than creating an entirely new and duplicitous agency, the same objective could be achieved by increasing the accessibility, the accuracy and the transparency of some of the existing data being provided by the other body.

By creating this agency, the Liberals would be once again creating separate race based institutions that fail to provide relief to community members who need it most. For these and other reasons stated today, we cannot be supportive of the legislation. We do not think it is the way to go at this time.

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Ken Epp Canadian Alliance Elk Island, AB

Mr. Speaker, I am interested in the bill and in the impact it would have. One of the things it tries to address is the fact that our native citizens are generally unwilling to participate in the Canadian scene when it comes to things like the Income Tax Act or tax collection. They quite regularly boycott attempts during elections to be enumerated and things like that. I understand that even with Statistics Canada they resent the Canadian government going on the reserves to collect data on them.

Some of the measures in the bill, presumably, try to address those issues and to bring those particular agencies a little closer to the people that they are purporting to work with.

I have two questions for the member on that topic: first, does the member have any insight into why this resistance is there; and, second, does he believe that the measures in the bill will address and correct those problems?

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Maurice Vellacott Canadian Alliance Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK

Mr. Speaker, I have spoken to individuals who have been involved in some of this gathering and gleaning of information over the course of the last couple of years, and one individual in particular, with whom I have had direct conversations, is of first nations origin. Apparently he received a little better reception because he was a first nations person collecting and gathering the data. However, even then there was some reluctance. He indicated to me that his job was not made real easy as he went into some of these situations.

I confess to the member that I do not know the answer to this. One of the answers might be to have more of their own people involved in capturing this information. There may be less suspicion and less reserve on the part of the people who are in the position of providing the information.

I think part of it is the sense of a people apart, an alienation, and wondering if in fact the information will be used against them instead of for them. I think those are the things that make people reluctant to be involved in the process.

I think through economic initiatives and various other things, in terms of their own governing, their own capacity and so on, we can encourage them over time to feel more a part of the full stream of Canadian society, which is what I desire and what I think many in the Canadian Alliance desire. They want native people to do well, to prosper, to succeed, to be full-fledged Canadian citizens and to enjoy all the benefits of this great country.

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

1:05 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

Is the House ready for the question?

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

1:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Question.

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

1:05 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

The question is on the amendment to the amendment. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the amendment to the amendment?

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

1:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

1:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.