House of Commons Hansard #81 of the 37th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was offenders.

Topics

Questions Passed as Orders for ReturnsRoutine Proceedings

3:10 p.m.

The Speaker

Is it agreed that Questions Nos. 146, 152 and 155 be made orders for returns?

Questions Passed as Orders for ReturnsRoutine Proceedings

3:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Question No. 146Routine Proceedings

3:10 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

John Williams Canadian Alliance St. Albert, AB

With regard to vehicles purchased for the use of the Prime minister, Ministers of the Crown and Secretaries of State: ( a ) what type of vehicle is currently being utilized; ( b ) when were they purchased; ( c ) how much did each vehicle cost; ( d ) how many vehicles are there; ( e ) how many kilometers are on each vehicle; ( f ) is there a plan to purchase new vehicles for the Prime minister, Ministers of the Crown and Secretaries of State; ( g ) if so, for what reason(s) is the government planning on purchasing new vehicles; and ( h ) do Canada's commitments under the Kyoto Protocol have anything to do with the purchase or planned purchase of new vehicles for the Prime minister, Ministers of the Crown and Secretaries of State?

Return tabled.

Question No. 152Routine Proceedings

3:10 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Stockwell Day Canadian Alliance Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

Has any government of Canada department or agency provided any international assistance, either directly or indirectly, to: ( a ) any Chinese government agency or business such as Jiangnan in Shanghai, China, and if so, what were the amount and purpose of the contribution; and ( b ) any other business in the cities of Shanghai and Ningpo?

Return tabled.

Question No. 155Routine Proceedings

3:10 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Dick Harris Canadian Alliance Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC

For each year from 1993 to 2001 what was the total amount billed to the government and its agencies by Pollara research associates?

(Return tabled.)

Question No. 155Routine Proceedings

3:10 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Mr. Speaker, I ask that all remaining questions be allowed to stand.

Question No. 155Routine Proceedings

3:10 p.m.

The Speaker

Is that agreed?

Question No. 155Routine Proceedings

3:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Request for Emergency DebateRoutine Proceedings

March 31st, 2003 / 3:10 p.m.

The Speaker

The Chair has notice of an application for emergency debate from the hon. member for Cumberland--Colchester

Request for Emergency DebateRoutine Proceedings

3:10 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Bill Casey Progressive Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Mr. Speaker, in my notice to you I indicated that the Minister of Health has yet to make a comprehensive statement in the House about the outbreak of severe acute respiratory syndrome. I do not know why she has been reluctant to bring the House up to date, but the members of the House and the people we represent deserve to know what the situation is.

The standing order requires that the application must relate to a genuine emergency calling for immediate and urgent consideration. We respectfully submit that this is. SARS is a deadly disease that has entered all regions of Canada now, notwithstanding the protections that are supposedly in place by the federal government concerning international travellers.

SARS has claimed the lives of several Canadians. The spread of SARS has closed hospitals, has required the deployment of an emergency health system, has caused shortages of medical equipment and has disrupted international travel.

There is evidence that SARS is now present in several provinces and this has caused serious concern in the many Canadian communities.

There has been significant economic disruption as well. The fear of economic loss may cause people to breach isolation orders which in turn would cause further risk of spreading the disease.

One of the functions of the House of Commons is to focus public attention on serious issues. An emergency debate would give the government an opportunity to inform the House just what is being done to protect the health of Canadians during this time. It would allow us to ask the questions that Canadians want asked.

Should you grant the application, Mr. Speaker, we would be willing to see the debate take place tomorrow evening so that the ministers and officials would have adequate time to prepare a full statement to the House.

Request for Emergency DebateRoutine Proceedings

3:10 p.m.

The Speaker

The Chair has carefully read the submission the hon. member forwarded this morning. I have had an opportunity to hear him this afternoon. In the opinion of the Chair, the request for the emergency debate does not meet the exigencies of the standing order at this time, and I stress those words. I know the hon. member may wish to renew his application at a later date.

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-23, an act respecting the registration of information relating to sex offenders, to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other acts, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Sex Offender Information Registration ActGovernment Orders

3:10 p.m.

The Speaker

When the House broke for question period, the hon. member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough had the floor. I understand that he has nine minutes remaining in his allotted time.

Sex Offender Information Registration ActGovernment Orders

3:10 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Peter MacKay Progressive Conservative Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS

Mr. Speaker, like you, I am very appreciative of any allotted time and I hope to make good use of it here this afternoon.

Prior to the interruption for question period I was speaking about the national sex offender registry and the need to implement it in such a way that the information would be both accurate and readily available, that is to say, that the information would be recorded in the first instance and would be available through a stand-alone system so that the information collected, for example, in British Columbia would be equally available to courts in Newfoundland or Nova Scotia. It would be coast to coast.

I know that ministers like Tim Olive, who is here today, and John Hamm, the Premier of Nova Scotia, appreciate the fact that we need to have a national system in place that will allow policing services, victims services, the courts, the justice system generally to function with information that is accurate, that allows the system to protect, which is what it is supposed to do, at its most basic level.

The harm of a sexual assault is life-lasting. I would suggest that a failed prosecution or unsuccessful investigations can exacerbate the harm caused by these heinous crimes. It can further undermine the faith in the system. Again, the importance of having a stand-alone sex offender registry to ensure that information is disseminated across the country in a timely fashion and allows police to get this information and protect the public cannot be overstated.

Seriously, flaws can occur when the full picture is not before the court. I know you, Mr. Speaker, having practised law yourself, can appreciate the importance of evidence being accurate. If a person has a previous offence and has shown a previous proclivity toward sexual aggression, that necessary information must be available.

Under the current system and under a system that is combined with the existing CPIC, I suggest there is a reasonable expectation that the information will not be available. With critical pieces of the puzzle missing, it may result in an entirely different outcome at trial or perhaps an important element at the sentencing stage of a conviction if that information is not there.

Not unlike the taking of DNA at the time of arrest, which was a shortcoming of previous legislations, I would suggest that there are inherent flaws in the current bill. When the bill is sent to the justice committee we will have the opportunity to make the necessary corrections through amendment.

Those shortcomings have been pointed out by previous members. I would call the inability to have a stand-alone system as the most serious flaw in the bill before the House. The result is, of course, that a critical bit of information, a critical piece of evidence, may not be brought forward which might result in the police not having the ability to protect a young person from a serious assault.

A national system would also allow police greater access to this information and a greater ability to protect. This is the bottom line. It is a simple, good idea that would work and would require an investment of resource. Much of that resource, I suggest, already exists.

Again, to state it clearly, we should follow the infrastructure of the gun registry, which is used to register millions of inanimate objects with a purpose that does not work and will not protect the public, and apply that to a registry of some tens of thousands of sex offenders. We could then make that information available to the police, the courts and the justice system generally. We would then see a profound impact on the protection of the public.

The United States has registries that are currently up and operating. Ontario was the first Canadian province to establish such a registry of convicted sex offenders. It has, very genuinely, put forward the presumption that we can work together in using its system as a model. It demonstrates again where the initiative and the origin of goodwill is coming from in this instance.

Far too often we have seen the federal government demonstrate an arrogant, dismissive attitude toward the provinces. We have seen it with health and certainly with justice. This is another example where the provinces have said that we should take an existing system and apply it nationally.

What on God's green earth could be more important and more fundamental than protecting children from sexual offenders? I would suggest that this should be a top priority. I am quick to point out that the government has finally brought the bill forward but there are ways in which we can improve it and, sadly, the way in which it is presented is flawed.

The technology to create a stand-alone registry is available. It must be one of the government's top priorities. We have had upgrades to the CPIC system that allow for the flagging of pardoned records of sex offenders, so clearly there are inherent protections available. We have a system that hopefully will monitor those who are currently on probation and who have conditions of parole to adhere to. Yet a national sex offender registry, set up in a comprehensive national computer system and made available to police, is what is critical to improve the way in which we deliver the services today and monitor those who are currently under conditions of the court. The community has a right to know, I would suggest, and this leads me to the important issue of retroactivity.

I support the concept of retroactivity in this instance, as do attorneys general across the country, as do many police, victims' services and individuals working in the justice system who want to see that this system is working properly.

It is not double jeopardy, as has been suggested by members of the Liberal government. It is not a double punishment for those who are currently serving time for sex offences set out specifically in the Criminal Code to suggest that information about them be made available through a protected system of this registry to police and to the community in certain instances. There are safeguards that the government is aware of, yet there is some suggestion that for heinous criminals who are currently there, having conducted themselves in an abhorrent way and abused children, making it retroactive somehow would violate their rights, that it would violate their rights to have this information made available to certain individuals who are tasked specifically with protecting children.

There is a suggestion that there would be a constitutional challenge. Of course there would. As sure as night follows day, when there is a new bill from the government there is going to be a challenge. That goes without saying. Let it happen, but let us hope that it happens quickly. I would suggest again, for emphasis, that the importance here is that the proportionality test, which is always applied when it comes to issues such as this, the balancing of the rights of the individual versus the rights of Canadians to be protected, clearly is going to be weighted in favour of protecting children. It would be saved by one, so to speak, under a charter challenge.

For those who are currently convicted of sexual offences, who are currently serving time, who had the benefit of due process and appeals that have been exhausted, I would suggest that this would not be an infringement of their rights. To not do so, to not make that information available, I would suggest, is offensive not only to common sense but also offensive to the rule of law when one considers the benefit that comes from having information about those offenders and the threat that may be posed to young children.

Clearly it is always easy to criticize, but when there are easy, practical solutions, why would we not act? Why would we not do the right thing? Again I commend the government for having brought forward this legislation, finally, and having made this a government priority, but it is clearly not enough.

In terms of the practical solutions and many of those issues that we will revisit at the justice committee, I would suggest that the government could go a long way to restoring lost public faith in efficiencies and in priorities of government by simply scrapping the long gun registry and using that infrastructure to apply to a national sex offender registry. We could tailor existing infrastructure, that is, computers, personnel and systems, in a stand-alone way that is separate from the CPIC system to effectively have a registry that would protect Canadians.

Ontario, as I mentioned, was willing to put forward a plan that would apply the system it is currently using to the federal system in the hopes of encouraging the government to adopt this.

I want to suggest as well that there are many other ways in which we can tailor the existing criminal law to help protect young people. I have a private member's bill which would expand the probation orders to allow judges to make orders to protect young persons in dwelling houses, which is where most sex offences occur, sadly, by persons known to young individuals.

In conclusion, I want to say that with the bill we have an opportunity here to do something very significant and substantive to protect children and to at the same time restore faith if the government will in fact adopt a stand-alone sex offender registry and treat these occasions with the greatest of seriousness in bringing in a registry system that will truly protect young people in the country.

Sex Offender Information Registration ActGovernment Orders

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, I welcome the comments of the hon. member. This subject matter has been with us for some time. My constituents have contacted me on a number of occasions asking me to try to express to them why it is that the RCMP system has not been able to fulfill the role and why some provinces, like the Province of Ontario, had to do it themselves.

Now we find ourselves looking for some consolidation. I wonder if the member could comment on whether or not this has the foundation of being a good start rather than another false start. Second, could the member, from his point of view, explain to Canadians exactly how such a registry would in fact be of assistance in preventing crimes against children as opposed to simply finding those who have already perpetrated them?

Sex Offender Information Registration ActGovernment Orders

3:25 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Peter MacKay Progressive Conservative Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS

Mr. Speaker, I thank my friend from Mississauga for his question. I know he has a longstanding interest in this subject and in particular in protecting children.

The short answer is “be warned and beware”. A system that allows police, community service workers and individuals who have access to the registry to identify who those individuals are, and to be cognizant of the fact that they obviously have demonstrated a proclivity, having been convicted of a sexual assault against a child and incarcerated and having found their names on that registry, allows those persons tasked specifically with protecting children to know who those individuals are within the community and to take necessary steps to keep a barrier, a distance, between individuals who might be so inclined.

That information being available, obviously the member would understand that, first, the information has to be accurate, it has to be timely and available, and it has to be broad based, because if offences have occurred on the west coast or the east coast the information must be available to all communities in between.

On the member's first question, I am not trying to be chippy here but these are the types of questions he should be asking his own government in regard to why it has taken so long to get the legislation to this point. Because he is right. He is certainly correct to suggest that for years there has been an outcry for a system such as this. The Province of Ontario took the initiative, largely because of frustration, in enacting a provincial sex offender registry. It is now offering co-operation and collaboration with the federal government to see that the system is applied nationally. I would hope, and in fact I know, that the hon. member is supportive in regard to seeing that happen, and so is the opposition, but let us get it right. Let us not make the mistake that we made, sadly, with current legislation dealing with child pornography, which does not go far enough and does not close loopholes.

My fear is that this legislation in its current form opens several loopholes. Yes, it is always better to take some rather than none, but I hate the feeling of pushing a rock up a hill, getting it to the top and having it roll back on us, which is often what happens with legislation such as this.

Sex Offender Information Registration ActGovernment Orders

3:25 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Gerry Ritz Canadian Alliance Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

Mr. Speaker, I listened with interest to the address of my colleague, the hon. member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough. He made mention of the long gun registry and the horrendous amount of money that has gone into it and is not really making anyone safe.

I know that when the Canadian Police Association members were on the Hill the other day, they were asking for help on a sex offender registry. They want to see one developed. The hon. member may have been lobbied as well. The government makes a big deal out of the support that the CPA gives it on the gun registry, but it forgets to mention that the CPA is asking for a commitment on a national sex offender registry. I wonder if the member would care to comment on that.

Sex Offender Information Registration ActGovernment Orders

3:25 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Peter MacKay Progressive Conservative Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS

I sure would like to comment on that, Mr. Speaker. Sadly, I think the police are sometimes played in a very political way. We know that they were asking for a DNA registry at the time of arrest in exchange for having a system that would actually work. What they got was far less than that and it was contingent on their support for the gun registry.

They have sold their souls again a little bit to continue that support, although I know that many of the rank and file do not support the gun registry and were quite adamant about pointing that out when they were here in Ottawa last week, because they know it does not work. They know there will be no accurate, timely information available on that system. They know it targets the wrong persons. Clearly not only will criminals not register their guns, they will not give their fingerprints before they break into a house either. It has been presented to Canadians in a disingenuous, flawed and completely inaccurate way from the very beginning by the minister at that time, who is reminiscent of Otto Lang, once described by John Diefenbaker, from the member's province, as a person who walks through a cow pasture and if there are five cow patties he will step in every one. That accurately describes the previous minister of justice who introduced this legislation.

Directly to the point, the Canadian Police Association is very anxious to have a system that will work. It is very anxious to put in place a registry system that would enhance public safety and give police accurate information that they could act upon to protect the public, just as, I suggest, we should have a national registry for missing persons. For individuals who are currently missing, that system would allow us to log on to a national databank which would provide information that would help locate persons and those who are, sadly, often victimized and who have been missing for years.

There are many practical ways to address this, as opposed to a system that we know does not work, that has been a sinkhole, that has been just an absolute brierpatch of disingenuous government propaganda versus practical systems that in fact enhance public safety.

I know that this member and all members of the House want to see a genuine attempt to bring forward national databank systems that in a practical way will help protect Canadians' lives, will help protect children from sexual predators and will give information to police and allow them to do the important job that they are tasked to do. I thank the member for his question.

Sex Offender Information Registration ActGovernment Orders

3:30 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Jay Hill Canadian Alliance Prince George—Peace River, BC

Mr. Speaker, I want to pose a question to my hon. colleague from the Progressive Conservatives in light of the questions put forward by the member for Mississauga South.

It seems to be the Liberal way to put forward some half-baked idea after years and years of study. Then the opposition is supposed to fall all over itself applauding the government's initiatives when, especially after taking as long as it has to come up with the sex offender registry, we would think it would be able to do it right. I refer especially to the issue of retroactivity.

As my hon. colleague from the Progressive Conservatives knows, and he referred to it briefly in his remarks, the fact is that roughly 4 out of 10 who are convicted of sexual assaults are repeat offenders; in other words, they will do it again. The whole notion that the government would bring forward a sex offender registry and not make it retroactive out of fear that it might be challenged on constitutional grounds is so completely ludicrous that it has Canadians from coast to coast to coast up in arms over it. They just do not see the sense to it and, quite frankly, neither do I. I do not see the sense in bringing this forward without making it retroactive.

Specifically on the fact that the recidivism rate is 40% for sexual offenders, which is my understanding of it, I would like my colleague from the PCs to address that point.

Sex Offender Information Registration ActGovernment Orders

3:30 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Peter MacKay Progressive Conservative Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS

Mr. Speaker, I do not know if my colleague from Mississauga South would have been quite so scathing in his condemnation of his own government, but his point was the same.

The government has brought forward what may be a half measure. The issue of recidivism is extremely serious when it comes to pedophiles and when it comes to those who have demonstrated a propensity toward sexual aggression toward children. For that very reason, those who are currently incarcerated for those offences, as I referred to earlier, should be included in this system. The retroactivity of this would cut in half the information that needs to be put forward if we do not include that element of the legislation.

The fear the government has of a constitutional challenge is one that I often refer to as constitutional constipation on the part of the government. There is some kind of blockage every time there is a suggestion that there may be a challenge in the courts. That is ridiculous. Of course there will be a challenge.

Let us just get on with it. Let us make the bill proper in its first instance and get it into play so the police can do their work, communities can be protected, and most important, children can be protected. This is exactly the very pith and substance of what we are trying to do. I know the member supports that. Members of the Progressive Conservative Party have been adamant in insisting on a stand-alone retroactive system and we will continue to push for that.

I look forward to working on the justice committee with the hon. member.

Sex Offender Information Registration ActGovernment Orders

3:35 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Carol Skelton Canadian Alliance Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK

Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to share my time this afternoon with my colleague from Battlefords—Lloydminster.

I am pleased to contribute to the important debate on the national sex offender registry. There cannot be more than a handful of people who would be opposed to such a registry in Canada, but I know there are millions of Canadians who do not know how ineffective the registry will be as it is proposed.

Sex offences are unlike any other crime. They are attacks on the person, not on a person's property. They violate the person in unimaginable ways. These crimes change their victims for life and the victims' families and communities. They violate the most basic level of trust we have between ourselves and our neighbours.

Canadians have demanded that their government take these crimes more seriously than others. They have demanded that we protect them from rapists and pedophiles, especially when we know who the criminals are. They have demanded that we put partisan politics aside for the safety and security of their families and themselves.

I was optimistic at first when the Canadian Alliance proposed the registry and the Liberals agreed to implement one. Unfortunately, the devil is in the details.

If an average Canadian were to put together a registry, one would expect that all known sex offenders would be included. Their whereabouts would be updated regularly and the list would be comprehensive. Unfortunately, the list will not contain the name of one known sex offender when it begins. Their whereabouts are updated annually and there are a number of loopholes that will allow rapists and pedophiles to remain off the registry.

Do registries work? I believe they do when there is full support and compliance with them. Other registries prove ineffective because they are not enforceable, are unreasonable or serve no purpose.

Let us take a look at the handgun registry. This registry, requiring all handguns in Canada to be registered, has been in place since 1932. In 71 years it has not proven effective in preventing a single crime. Even worse is the fact that handguns remain a serious problem across Canada.

What did the Liberals do in response? They said that guns should be registered. Canadians rightfully questioned the initiative because of the proven ineffectiveness of the handgun registry. If a purpose cannot be shown for a registry and if it cannot be made comprehensive, people will not adhere to it.

If we look at other registries, they have proven more effective because they are enforceable and people see a purpose in registering. The registration of cars, telecommunications devices and fishing permits come to mind.

What can Canadians expect the first day the sex offender registry is in place? What will be better than the day before? Unfortunately, the answer is nothing. The registry will not be grandfathered, meaning that known sex offenders will not be included. Only those who are convicted after the registry is in place will be included. It is unbelievable that the Paul Bernardos and Karla Homolkas of the world will not be placed on the list. If we can grandfather the firearms registry, why can we not grandfather the sex offender registry?

Who are the real criminals? Why are the Liberals trying to protect rapists and pedophiles? Every living person who has been convicted of a sex crime should be included on the registry for life. I am looking forward to hearing the Liberal reasoning why they should not be. The intention of the registry is to keep track of those deemed to be a potential threat to the public. That way if there is a sex crime committed, police have a headstart in tracking down potential suspects.

To be effective, the registry must accurately know the whereabouts of those individuals. While we are not suggesting they each call in by the hour to let us know where they are, I feel an annual update is too infrequent to be effective or reliable. If we called our families once a year to update our addresses, how much would that reveal about our whereabouts for the other 364 days of the year?

Most provinces have strict rules about updating one's driver's licence and address within days of moving. Why should the requirements of convicted sex offenders be any less stringent? I think a lot more could be done to keep track of these individuals. If they leave a prescribed region, they should have to report. If they want to leave the country, they should have to report and get permission.

If anyone has a problem with the rules, they simply should remember that they chose to put themselves on the list by committing a serious crime.

Many may wonder what the serious penalty must be for not keeping one's listing updated or reporting every 365 days. It is punishable by a maximum, yes as maximum, of six months in prison. The penalties for not registering a firearm, a car, a first fishing permit and a number of other things are much worse. Once again we have to ask, what message are we sending?

Shockingly, not all of the convicted sex offenders would be required to remain registered for life. Sex offenders would be required to remain registered for one of three periods: 10 years for summary conviction offences with two to five year maximums; 20 years for offences with 10 to 14 year maximums; and lifetime for offences with a maximum life sentence or where there has been a prior conviction for a sex offence.

But wait, it gets even more interesting. These registration periods are not ironclad orders. These criminals can get off the list, or even avoid getting on it in the first place, if they can successfully argue that being on the list will do them more harm than public good.

We could imagine the lineup of sex offenders who will try to get off the list through this loophole. I can imagine that our traditionally soft judicial system would be more than happy to comply with the wishes of rapists and pedophiles.

With such soft requirements and such large loopholes, is the registry going to do anything? Will it be worth the effort? Unfortunately I think that the registry in its proposed form will be ineffective. It will be a great Liberal public relations exercise but will do nothing to protect the public. It will do little to track sex offenders and will tie up the courts with pedophiles and rapists trying to get off the list. It will frustrate police and give the public a false sense of security. It will end up being another Liberal boondoggle.

This is very unfortunate because we are wasting an opportunity to really make a difference, an opportunity to make necessary changes to protect Canadians, especially our children.

If we would put half as much effort and resources into the sex offender registry as were put into the firearms registry, we would be much further ahead. Why is the government not putting as much effort into registering known criminals as it is in registering law-abiding citizens?

I have trouble telling my constituents that the registry will start with a blank page and may or may not have the names of known sex offenders. I also have a problem telling them that a rapist or pedophile is roaming in their community and is only required to report once a year. But I will tell my constituents that the Liberals did not seize the opportunity and the chance they had to protect them, that the Liberals tried to pull the wool over their eyes, that the Liberals misled them into a false sense of security. I will be honest with my constituents even if the Liberals are not honest with theirs.

Sex Offender Information Registration ActGovernment Orders

3:40 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Gerry Ritz Canadian Alliance Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to rise today. I spoke earlier on Bill C-20, the child protection bill, and I talked about a parallel bill that would come in later today. Bill C-23 is that bill.

Bill C-23 would put in place the national sex offender registry. The national sex offender registry has been called on for a long time in the country. There have been several different stabs at it. However it has never really happened. I guess the genesis of this came out of a Canadian Alliance supply day motion put forward by my good friend, my colleague from Langley—Abbotsford. On March 13, 2001, over two years ago now, the House of Commons voted in favour of that motion. The motion, which was very simple, read:

That the government establish a national sex offender registry by January 1, 2002.

We have missed it by a year and some. It did not happen. The Liberals ignored it. At their own peril, they walked away from it, yet there was a groundswell of petitions and support. People from our ridings across the country questioning what had happened to it. They asked where had it gone because they had not seen it this place. Finally the Liberals were pushed to act, and we have Bill C-23. Unfortunately, as many of my colleagues have pointed out, it is a half measure. There are some terrible flaws in this legislation as well.

A lot of it started back in 1988 when an 11 year old boy was murdered by a convicted pedophile who was out on statutory release, another wonderful thing that needs to be changed. The Liberals at that time started thinking about a national sex offender registry. That was 15 years ago. There have been a lot of problems and a lot of convicted felons since that time. A lot of folks who have been released on statutory release back into the very communities have reoffended and gone back to prison.

It is timely that we are finally getting around to this legislation. However there is a huge flaw. It is not retroactive. As my colleague from Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar pointed out, it starts off just like that, a white, blank sheet of paper. There is nothing on it.

How can that be when our prisons have these types of people incarcerated now? They are being let out. I had one on the streets of my riding a week or two ago. I have talked about this a couple of times in the House but it bears repeating. A fellow who is a multiple convicted felon, been away many times, keeps getting out and doing the same dastardly deeds. His victims are young girls ranging in age from 11 to a one and a half year old. How bad is that? Yet his name will not show up on that registry. He is a multiple convicted child predator.

There is a huge hole in this type of a document. That alone has called for amendments to make it retroactive and the government will not go there. There have been questions in the House to the Solicitor General and the Minister of Justice and they say that they cannot make it retroactive because of privacy concerns.

How much privacy do the victims have? They wake up screaming at night. These nightmares will continue on for their life. Yet the legislation, which is supposedly there to protect them and to help them get past this, is not retroactive. It does not take that burden away from them. It keeps them reliving those problems every time this clown is released back into society to reoffend.

Other colleagues have touched on the rate of recidivism. It is huge and unbelievable. These people do not even take any kind of counselling while they are incarcerated. They can say that they do not need it and walk away. They cannot be forced to take counselling. Their constitutional rights supercede the victims and the nightmare they continue to leave. It is absolutely upside down and backwards here.

The government says that it cannot make it retroactive because of privacy concerns and it will be constitutionally challenged. My good colleague from Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough who used to be a public prosecutor in Nova Scotia said that any new law would be challenged. They always are to test how strong it is.

Our courts need to have the backbone, and maybe we need to put it there from the House of Commons. It is the top court on the law. Maybe we need to inject that backbone into our judges right from here, with the toe of our boot if need be, and say, “ Here is the crime and this is the time that they need to do”. Get on with it.”

We see maximum sentences being extended and enlarged. However maximum does not mean anything. It is the minimum time that they serve that counts. It does not matter that the maximum is doubled, or tripled or maybe it is 16 life sentences. Nobody serves those sentences. They go to the minimum term. They get statutory release. They are up for parole at two-thirds of their time and all sorts of things. There is a huge amount of work that needs to be done on our whole justice department. This retroactivity totally negates the whole purpose of the bill.

The government will not implement retroactivity on the sex offender registry. It will not implement retroactivity on the DNA database. It will not go and get DNA from a lot of these bad guys because of their constitutional rights and the privacy laws. Then it implements something like Bill C-68, a firearms registry, which has forms that really invade my privacy. It set up a database that is a shopping list for every other criminal in the world who wants to find out what I have and where to come and get it, and my constitutional rights are challenged.

A good friend of mine, Dr. Ted Morton, has done an indepth study on the constitutionality of Bill C-68. He said that the government did not have a leg to stand on in regard to that bill, and he has listed it out. This fellow is a constitutional lawyer. He knows about what he is talking. That really starts to ring true when we see the people who have tried to become arrested under Bill C-68 and the government will not charge them because it knows it will get thrown out of court and totally destroy the whole premise of this public safety Bill C-68 hides behind.

We see those type of things implemented in here.

Even if a sex offender is put on the brand new list, there is another loophole. Through the courts, he can apply to not have his name listed if he feels that it would be detrimental to his health and safety. How absolutely ridiculous is that? Nobody in any court of law or at any kitchen table would ever agree with the premise that a criminal, a convicted felon, can apply to not have his name on there because it is injurious to his own privacy and safety. That is a loophole that nobody can believe.

Provinces have started to develop these registries. They have had to do it ad hoc because the federal government will not come forward with the proper legislation and funding to help them out. We can have pedophiles listed in Ontario who move to Saskatchewan and we lose them because there is not that continuity. This would address that if it were done properly, but we do not see that here. The big problem is the funding.

As I mentioned in a question to my colleague, the Canadian Police Association was here on Hill the last week and it probably lobbied him like it did everybody else. Its stand supposedly is pro Bill C-68. Maybe at the top end it. However ordinary folks who came to see me said that it was not a good thing. They want to see a DNA database. They want to see a sex offender registry that is retroactive. The government tends to not mention the CPA stand on those issues but it will give the CPA credit for being in favour of Bill C-68, at the upper end.

There are a lot of things wrong with this. The biggest issue that we take umbrage with is the retroactivity. To that end, I would like to propose a motion. I move:

That the motion be amended by replacing all the words after the word “that” with

“this House declines to give second reading to Bill C-23, an act respecting the registration of information relating to sex offenders, to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other acts, since the bill fails to require retroactive registration of sex offenders who have a 40% recidivism rate in order to avoid needing another offence before a repeat sex offender is added to the registry”.

Sex Offender Information Registration ActGovernment Orders

3:50 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

Debate is on the amendment.

Sex Offender Information Registration ActGovernment Orders

3:50 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Jay Hill Canadian Alliance Prince George—Peace River, BC

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to listen to my colleague from Saskatchewan lay out a representation of the concerns of his constituents with Bill C-23. I am struck with the fact that it does not seem to matter in what area of criminal law the Liberal government finally is pushed to react, it invariably does a half-assed job of bringing forward the legislation. Bill C-20, which it brought forward to deal with the issue of child pornography, is very similar to Bill C-23. It tries to do half or less of the job.

I cannot imagine the Liberals would bring forward legislation that would not make it retroactive to ensure that existing sex offenders would be included on the registry. Good grief, what good will the registry be if all the hundreds of sex offenders, who are currently incarcerated, will not be on the registry? It just boggles the mind.

I know in conversations that I have had with constituents from one end of Prince George—Peace River to the other, they are appalled that the Liberals take years, not weeks, not months, to react to the pleas of Canadian citizens to protect our children, the most vulnerable people in our society, and then they bring forward legislation that will not do half the job.

I represent a huge rural riding which covers over 200,000 square kilometres with about 10 communities, from Prince George in the south to Fort Nelson in the far north, getting up close to Yukon, and I have heard it in every community big and small. Is my colleague from Saskatchewan hearing similar concern being expressed by constituents in his riding?

Sex Offender Information Registration ActGovernment Orders

3:55 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Gerry Ritz Canadian Alliance Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague from Prince George—Peace River for his summation and his great question.

He is absolutely right. This is one of the issues that people rally around. I know his e-mails have lit up. I know the petitions alone, which have been presented in this place, should convince the folks on the other side that this legislation does not go half far enough. There are too many loopholes built into it. It is bound to fail from the way it is done.

I know my colleague's riding and mine are very similar. We have been back and forth in each other's ridings speaking. What is lacking in this legislation is common sense. Our folks out there can see through this and say that it is a smokescreen. It is never going to hold up. We are designing laws for lawyers and constitutional challenges. It does not help victims in the least. As I said, there is no common sense.

Even if the registry does get up and running, there may never be a name placed on it. There is no retroactivity and there is no guarantee that all sex offenders will not apply for the loophole that says that it will be harmful for them to be on the list and win that argument, or tie it up in court for so long that people finally throw up their hands and decide this is not the way to go. It will never work.

It has been over two years since our colleague brought forward the motion and counting, and we still do not have anything on the books. Even when we do get this one, it in no way resembles what that motion intended to do. We are getting a half measure.

Now the government is in a hurry. It has to win the political spin war out there that somehow public safety is paramount but people see through this type of legislation. They know this will in no way address any type of public safety.