House of Commons Hansard #93 of the 37th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was workers.

Topics

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

Bloc

Marcel Gagnon Bloc Champlain, QC

The hon. member for Jonquière, who was part of that group, tells us it is utterly false, that the union never agreed. It must have given in, because it was that or nothing.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

Bloc

Jocelyne Girard-Bujold Bloc Jonquière, QC

Arm-twisting.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

Bloc

Marcel Gagnon Bloc Champlain, QC

Yes, arm-twisting. That is exactly what happened. Workers have been asking for a proper balance of power for a long time. Workers do not necessarily want a strike that goes bad. Workers want their rights to be respected.

Balance is achieved by ensuring that the use of scabs is no longer allowed, as the Quebec Labour Code already provides, with the result that there are no scabs working during a strike, and strikes get settled.

I would like the speech of the Liberal member who just spoke to be distributed to all the workers in our region who, because of the lumber issue, among other issues, find themselves in a precarious position. I would like them to hear him, see him, and read what he said. They would find it hard to believe what we are hearing from the people opposite on this issue.

It is imperative that this bill be passed when it comes back before the House. Hon. members must be guided by their conscience and pass this bill.

At the time when the anti-scab legislation was passed in Quebec, Minister Johnson gave a great speech. I recall another minister: Pierre Marois. He had been involved with the labour movement. He was a leading expert on the Labour Code. Pierre Marois was the Minister responsible for Social Development. He made a speech which emphasized the social aspect and the fact that we have no right letting disputes go unresolved and no right upsetting the balance of power between management and labour at a time as difficult as the time of a strike.

Pierre Marois demonstrated the need for collective awareness, an awareness strong enough to ensure that these issues are settled as quickly as possible.

I am getting on in years, but I have this dream that before I retire, I will get to hear speeches that will advance the social issue, the community and the sense of humanity. Speeches should be made, which are more fitting of a big, beautiful Canada; after all, it is being called the best country in the world. The speeches should better reflect who we are, and who the workers are. Society should be the one developing legislation fostering greater social justice.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

Bloc

Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—Petite-Patrie, QC

Mr. Speaker, it is with great pleasure that I rise to speak to the Bloc Quebecois motion calling on this House to recognize the urgency of amending the Canada Labour Code toban the use of strikebreakers.

Today, we are asking the House to recognize the need to accept the innovative measures taken not only by the Government of Quebec but by the whole province when anti-scab legislation was passed in 1977 and implemented in 1978. We want this same philosophy and this same approach to serve as the basis for amending the Canada Labour Code.

Members will recall that this fundamental change, which was an important step forward in Quebec with regard to workers' rights when it was made in 1977 and implemented in 1978, came after a dispute at a company located in the riding of the member for Longueuil, namely the United Aircraft dispute.

At that time, Quebeckers and more particularly the Government of Quebec clearly indicated that it was fundamental to do something to avoid or limit considerably the possibility for an employer to use replacement workers.

It was an innovative measure at the time, but today, we basically believe that this approach and this philosophy that have to do with respecting workers' rights must be reflected in the Canada Labour Code.

Why must we make these fundamental changes? First because we believe that it will civilize labour disputes as well as the whole approach with regard to labour relations. We think that protecting the rights of workers may, in the end, create greater equality among people. So it is good for labour relations. Moreover, it naturally promotes industrial peace. I will come back to that later.

We have also seen that the number of dispute days in Quebec has been reduced considerably over the last few years thanks in part to the measures taken by the government. Finally, the Quebec experience is not meaningless in terms of results since it prevents the creation of two classes of workers who are treated differently in the workplace.

This is certainly beneficial, and Quebec has used all the means at its disposal to protect the workers themselves.

Looking at the situation in Quebec, and seeing the results of the measures adopted by the Government of Quebec in 1977, one can see the results are conclusive. This can be seen by the fact that the average number of work days lost in 1976, and thus before enactment of the Quebec legislation, was 39.4. In 1979, after the act came into being, the average dropped to 32.8 days. In 2001, it was around 27.4 days, or 12 days less on the average than in 1976. This proves that the Quebec approach has greatly reduced the number of days lost.

What is the advantage of this type of measure, not only for workers, but for companies as well? We know that very often this type of measure can result in increased efficiency and productivity, and so these are not measures that benefit only the workers. In fact, they make it possible for companies to be more competitive and more productive.

We therefore need to realize that this basic right that needs to be added to the Canada Labour Code must be added as soon as possible.

Anti-strikebreaker legislation has also been in place since 1993 in British Columbia. This resulted in a 50% drop in time lost from 1992 to 1993. Not only is the Quebec experiment a convincing one, but what is done elsewhere, in other provinces, other jurisdictions, is also. Particularly in B.C. with its 50% drop. It can also be seen that businesses productivity can be not just maintained but even increased.

Finally, according to other figures, between 1992 to 2003 the average number of days lost was 15.9 under the Quebec labour code, while it was 31.1 days under the Canada Labour Code. This is a difference of over 95.6%. I think this is another outcome that needs to be taken into consideration.

Between 1992 and 2002, the number of days lost per 1,000 employees was 121.3 under the Quebec code and under the Canadian, 266.3 days over that 10 year period. This is a difference of 119.5%. There is certainly a wealth of experience to be drawn upon.

Today, we are hard pressed to understand the attitude of the government opposite. This fight did not begin just today with the Bloc Quebecois. The hon. member for Bas-Richelieu—Nicolet—Bécancour who spoke earlier was the first member to introduce a bill on this subject. I remind the hon. members that the Liberal Party of Canada supported that bill. Obviously, the Conservatives did not agree with this Bloc Quebecois bill, but the government opposite was the opposition then and it supported the Bloc Quebecois initiative because it was ground breaking in many ways in labour relations, which needed improving in Canada.

Today, it is very hard to understand why the Liberals who were saying one thing ten years ago are saying just the opposite now that they are the government.

Today, we want to emphasize one thing. Essentially, we are asking the government to recognize that impressive results have been achieved in Quebec, that the Quebec model, which was designed and passed in 1977 and implemented in 1978, has had a significant impact on workers' rights. And not only that. Another positive result was an improvement in business productivity.

Today, we are asking the government opposite to be consistent with its position ten years ago and recognize that the Quebec model is promising and allows more civilized labour relations in the interests of the well-being of workers and business productivity.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:25 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—St. Clair, ON

Mr. Speaker, I was listening to the debate throughout the day and I kept hearing about finding a balanced approach with management on one side and labour unions on the other because it is the Canadian way. I heard this from the Minister of Labour, other members of the government and some Alliance members. I must tell those people that they are wrong. This is one of those times when a decision must be made about what is right. When it comes to strikebreaking legislation, to the use of scabs in the workplace, that is wrong and we must outlaw it.

I had a personal experience this past summer on a picket line in Chatham, Ontario, which will live with me for the rest of my life. In the course of that strike a truck was trying to move through the crowd and some of the picketing workers were being forced through to so-called security firm people, who in fact were professional strikebreakers. They were a bunch of goons. I had dealt with the same group of people earlier in January in Windsor. As the truck was going through it was forcing the workers to move toward a yellow line that had been painted on the ground and they were not supposed to cross over that yellow line.

As they were being forced toward that yellow line they were hit, kicked and punched by the strikebreakers, and an incident developed. One man was kicked in the chest, and when he went down he was kicked in the head by one of the strikebreakers. His wife, who went to his aid, was kicked in the chest by one of the macho strikebreakers. The real sadness of this was what happened the week following as a result of the tension on the picket line. One of my constituents was almost killed by one of the strikebreakers when he was doing nothing more than picketing there.

The government must realize that what we saw in the Chatham and Windsor areas this past year can happen anyplace in this country. All of the evidence has been heard today, particularly from my colleagues in the Bloc, about this type of legislation prohibiting that kind of conduct. It will reduce lost work days and increase the potential for peace in those kinds of relationships.

I feel very strongly that this legislation is required. It is no longer a question of consensus building or what has to be done right. If the government does not realize that, it will have the same kind of problems as we had in Windsor and Chatham this past year.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:30 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

As the time provided for debate has expired, the proceedings on the motion before the House have concluded.

Business of the HouseGovernment Orders

5:30 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The honourable member for Trois-Rivières advised me in writing that he was unable to introduce his motion during private members' business on Monday, April 5, 2003. Since it has not been possible to arrange an exchange of positions in the order of precedence, I am directing the clerk to drop that item of business to the bottom of the order of precedence. Private members' hour will thus be cancelled and government orders will begin at 11 a.m.

It being 5.30 p.m. the House will now proceed to the consideration of private members' business as listed on today's Order Paper.

Canadian Firearms Control ProgramPrivate Members' Business

5:30 p.m.

Bloc

Pierrette Venne Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

moved:

That, in the opinion of this House, the government should immediately suspend application of the Canadian Firearms Program in order to hold a public inquiry into the reasons for the Program’s extraordinary cost overruns, and to submit a structured and detailed strategic plan that would have to be approved in advance by this House.

Mr. Speaker, I am very happy to begin this first hour of debate on Motion M-387 moved in my name, regarding the Canadian firearms control program. In addition to the fact that we are going to debate my motion, I must say how happy I am to take part in my first debate as a independent Bloc Quebecois member.

On February 17, during members' statements, I promised my constituents that I would seize every available opportunity to hound this government. Today's debate is therefore a wonderful opportunity to proudly honour, without hindrance, the promise I made. I am also pleased because this debate is being held in a new context that respects and recognizes, finally, the role of members of Parliament as well as the importance of their initiatives, thanks to the implementation of a new provisional standing order that makes all items of private members' business votable.

On countless occasions I denounced the unfairness of the former procedural rules that discouraged any initiative and frustrated members. This did not further democracy and only hindered Parliament. Accordingly, I hope this new standing order will become permanent.

That said, let me return to today's subject, which is gun control. Incidentally, I have been involved in this issue since the very beginning, that is, since 1989, the year of the massacre at École polytechnique de Montréal, which led to legislation introduced by Kim Campbell, Minister of Justice at the time.

The purpose of that bill was to prohibit automatic weapons converted to semi-automatic weapons, to establish new controls that would apply to military and paramilitary firearms and to introduce greater scrutiny of those applying for authorization to acquire firearms.

Fourteen years later I am moving this motion because the issue is still important and it concerns me on three levels. First, as a parliamentarian and citizen who is interested in public safety; second as a firearm owner and big game hunter; and finally, as a taxpayer who cannot accept the government wasting our money as shamefully as it has.

First, let us be clear. In 1995, when Parliament passed the Firearms Act, and I am still very much in favour of gun control, I had to force my colleagues in the Bloc Quebecois to support gun control. This was very divisive for our caucus, because many members, mainly from rural ridings, opposed gun control.

I then believed, maybe because I was too confident or optimistic, that the federal government would be able to effectively manage this program, which is under its constitutional jurisdiction.

Incidentally, before infringing upon areas of provincial jurisdiction, the federal government should make sure that it is able to effectively manage programs under its own jurisdiction.

Note that gun control is not an exception in terms of mismanagement of public funds. We only have to think about the sponsorship scandal which resurfaced only a few weeks ago, after a report from the Standing Committee on Public Accounts came to the conclusion that there had been negligence, misconduct and mismanagement of public funds by Public Works Canada. I know someone who must be very happy to be in Denmark right now.

But let us come back to the topic, because if we were to list all cases of mismanagement of federal programs and government cover-ups, it would be hours before we got anywhere near gun control.

Therefore, the purpose of my motion is not to cancel the gun control program but rather to suspend it in order to identify clearly what went wrong and what caused it to go wrong. It is sometimes necessary to take stock and then draw the necessary conclusions.

In the case of gun control, that time has come and the only conclusion we can draw is that this program was a monumental financial failure. It is no use hiding one's head in the sand. It is a tough pronouncement, but a realistic one. The figures say it all.

Unfortunately, it has become obvious that the way the government operates has nothing to do with the rigour and rationality which underlie sound management.

Is it because it is easier to spend other people's money? Is it because of a systemic lack of transparency throughout the government machine? Or is it because of the lack of accountability of senior bureaucrats?

To all three questions, there is only one answer: yes. This shows how deep the malaise is and that it is not exclusive to the firearms program. It is a problem common to the public service as a whole.

As a matter of fact when she published her most-recent report on the quality of financial information, the auditor general said and I quote:

--the systems, policies, and practises for reporting full cost information are not adequate.

Moreover, she stated the obvious when she said:

Being able to associate costs with results makes for more informed choices; but without knowing the full costs of delivering program, the government cannot fully assess the results of these programs.

This is exactly what happened with the firearms program. However, the government insists on keeping everybody in the dark and investing millions of dollars in this program without knowing where and when this waste will stop.

Apart from the officials at the Department of Justice, a few members threatened with expulsion by their leader and some afraid of a snap election, no manager with the least bit of common sense would have accepted to keep on putting money into such a financial disaster without first reassessing the business plan.

In this case, however, there is no business plan. Since its inception, the program has been an comedy of errors replete with improvisation and administrative blunders. As a result, when, on March 25 the government asked us to vote a further $59 million for the management of this program, it wanted nothing less than another blank cheque while the House was still in the dark as to the reasons for this huge money pit.

Therefore, it is to prevent the government from periodically asking for more money that will only be used to fill in new money pits, or older ones that might reappear, that I am moving this motion today .

There is also another type of confusion going on. Some people confuse the objectives of the gun control program with its management. The gun control program should not be considered a bad program because of the fact that it will have cost us one billion dollars. On the contrary, it is a good program, way too expensive of course, but that is because it was mismanaged.

Of course, by itself, the program will not eliminate crime. However, combined with other measures, it will make an essential contribution to the reduction of the crime rate. The very existence of this program should therefore not be jeopardized.

Besides, apart from the billion dollar cost predicted by the Auditor General, the program has been relatively successful and we have to admit that it is still useful. As of March 8 of this year, 6,100,000 firearms had been registered by 1,446,065 owners. According to some figures, that represents almost 90% of owners.

Moreover, on December 1, 1998, the Canadian firearms registry on-line had received 2,328,360 information requests from police officers or other law enforcement representatives. In fact, last March 25, the Canadian Police Association lobbying day, all the police officers I met reiterated their support for the program, saying how useful it was for them in their work.

On another note, as far as accountability and transparency are concerned, the government has a lot of work to do and this is mainly where we have a problem. Since 1995, after the adoption of the Firearms Act, we have had three justice ministers and seen one Auditor General's report, two private reports, one action plan and eventually one billion dollars down the drain. And we still do not know whom to blame.

We are talking about millions of dollars magically disappearing. Worst still, in spite of this scandal that nobody seems to be responsible for, some senior public officials have also been given performance bonuses.

It is really incredible and quite disgusting. There are some very serious weaknesses in the bureaucracy. Obviously, some fundamental management principles are not known or ignored. The time might have come to seriously reassess the capabilities and knowledge of the people in charge of managing the millions of dollars we pay in taxes.

And please do not tell me that we are on the right track with the government action plan that was announced jointly by the justice minister and the solicitor general on February 21. I have never heard such a lot of empty rhetoric and meaningless clichés. In the press release he issued at the time, the justice minister stated, and I quote:

The plan I am announcing today will deliver a gun control program that provides significant public safety benefits, while setting the program on a path to lower costs. The plan will streamline management, improve service to legitimate users of firearms, seek stakeholder, parliamentarian, and public input, and strengthen accountability and transparency to Parliament and Canadians.

First, to say that it will set “the program on a path to lower costs” is totally unwarranted since the government has recently approved an additional $59 million for this program.

Moreover, we already know that the management of this program for the next fiscal year will cost $13 million more than last year, that is $113 million instead of $100 million. So where are the savings? If anybody understands this, I would appreciate it if they could explain it to me because I am convinced that I am not the only one who has difficulty understanding what the minister meant when he talked about “lower costs”.

Also, according to the minister, the plan is supposed to streamline management of the program. In this regard, here is the gibberish used by the minister to explain this streamlining. This is also a quote from the press release issued by the Department of Justice on February 21. It said, and I quote:

—to align enforcement operations; streamlining headquarter functions and consolidating processing sites; creating a continuous improvement plan to generate ongoing program efficiencies; establishing national work performance measurements and cost standards; and limiting computer system changes to projects that improve the efficiency of the program.

I want to know if there is a translator in the House. Management will be improved through better management. This is incredible. To me, it means absolutely nothing.

What we should have been told about are the gains and savings that will result from this so-called action plan. I doubt very much that it is by transferring people to other offices or by replacing one bunch of bureaucrats with another one that the government will improve the management of the program.

Considering the scale of the fiasco, we were entitled to expect something structured, dramatic and innovative from the minister, such as turning gun registration over to the private sector. However, it would be out of the question to replace 140 bureaucrats from the Canadian Firearms Centre, located in Miramichi, with 140 employees under contract. This would be like changing four quarters for a dollar.

What I would support instead is placing the management of the registration procedure in the hands of people who have knowledge in this field, that is gunsmiths and firearms dealers. Naturally they would be compensated for their services, as is the case when game is registered.

In short, the last action plan is a perfect illustration of the improvised management that is so typical of the federal government.

For all these reasons, it is essential and even urgent that the government suspend application of the Canadian firearms program, in order to devise a strategy that, for once, will demonstrate a long-term vision. This would be a change from what we are used to seeing from the government these past years.

Consequently, the process must start with a public inquiry into the reasons for the program's extraordinary cost overruns, to ensure that the same mistakes are not repeated. Later on, we will able to devise a strategic plan that will respect all the criteria on quality of financial information, as defined in the last Auditor General's report. Of course, to be implemented, this new plan will have to be approved by the House.

In conclusion, I urge all members who believe in the principles of transparency, accountability and sound management to participate constructively in this debate.

Canadian Firearms Control ProgramPrivate Members' Business

5:45 p.m.

Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine Québec

Liberal

Marlene Jennings LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Solicitor General of Canada

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the hon. member for Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert for her motion.

Since she seems to be in favour of gun control and states herself that she was involved in the battle waged by many Canadians to get real gun control after the events she mentioned, particularly the 1989 tragedy at the École polytechnique, I would like to know this. How does she think a gun control program can contribute to public safety and a reduction in the number of crimes? She just touched briefly on this.

I would like to know how, from her own experience, real gun control can make a positive contribution to public safety and a reduction in the number of crimes.

Canadian Firearms Control ProgramPrivate Members' Business

5:45 p.m.

Bloc

Pierrette Venne Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

Mr. Speaker, it has been obvious, right from the start, that police officers are asking for gun control to help them in their duties.

As I said earlier, the officers I met when they came to visit and lobby told us clearly that it helped them a lot, that they often made requests to the firearms control information office to get ideas about the people they could go and see following a request for an investigation, and so on, in that area. It has done them a great service.

Yes, I think that in this way it is excellent. I think, and I will say it again, that expenses absolutely must be cut; there absolutely must be a public inquiry so that we can find out where the money has gone and manage this properly in the future.

Yes, I agree, and I have always said so, with gun control, which, like the health services we have mentioned, can sometimes be a way to prevent suicides. Additionally, since gun control began, many applications for firearms acquisition permits have been turned down.

If they were turned down, it was because of the criteria that have been established. Here, too, there has been a lot of screening. That is also due to the registry. Thus, it is very important for it to exist, but the costs must be controlled.

Canadian Firearms Control ProgramPrivate Members' Business

5:50 p.m.

Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine Québec

Liberal

Marlene Jennings LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Solicitor General of Canada

Mr. Speaker, once more, I would like to thank the honourable member for Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert for putting Motion M-387 forward in the House because this gives me an opportunity to talk about the Canadian firearms program and about the action plan that the government developed last February to make it more efficient and less expensive.

The motion before us today calls upon the government to suspend the application of the Canadian firearms program in order to hold a public inquiry into the cost of the program. Let me explain why this is not in the best interests of Canadians.

The government of Canada remains firmly committed to both major components of the gun control program; that is the licensing component and the registration component. Both are key elements in achieving the program's public safety objectives.

The government has the legal obligation to administer Canada's firearms program. Suspension of the program could not occur without repealing the Firearms Act and the related Criminal Code section which deal with firearms and which were passed almost eight years ago. This would not be in the public interest. The firearms program, as the member of Parliament for Saint-Bruno--Saint-Hubert has herself stated, has already proven to be an effective tool to protect the safety of Canadians.

I would like to remind the House that, as the member for Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert said previously, the government's gun control program has the support of the Canadian Police Association and the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police. These people are experts in the area of public security and they know that the program is working.

May I note here that the member for Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert herself recognized the efficiency and the real positive benefits from the firearms registry program.

This program yields significant savings for police services. As part of this program, police are no longer burdened with the paperwork and administration involved in accepting firearms applications because these are now mailed to a processing site. This frees up significant police time and resources that can be redirected to investigations and policing.

The information contained in the firearms databank is very useful to the enforcement agencies, our police forces. For example, police have ready access to information on firearms, information regarding the very existence of firearms, which ensures a certain protection in potentially dangerous situations. This information is also used in countering firearm trafficking and theft. Police consult the databank about 2000 times a day for investigative purposes.

Safety training courses are integral to the firearms registry program. Anyone wishing to purchase or borrow a firearm must first pass a firearm handling safety course developed by the Canadian Firearms Centre.

The safety courses are taught by qualified inspectors who are located in thousands of communities across the country in both rural and urban Canada. Hundreds of thousands of individuals and minors have completed the required safety training. The courses teach people how to handle guns, how to transport a firearm and how to safely store firearms.

Safety training plays an important part in preventing accidents and promoting the safe use of firearms. Just as licensing and registration promote responsibility toward one's firearms, safety training ensures that those who wish to acquire firearms have the knowledge they need to do so safely.

The motion of the hon. member refers to cost overruns within the firearms program. Let me address that. It has been well established by all of the various reports, which the member for Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert mentioned in her speech, that implementing the firearms program has been a logistical and technical challenge. Program development included many changes in the first five years as a result of evolving policy and administrative needs.

Let me give one example. After the legislation allowing the creation of the registry was adopted and as the registry was being put into place, the police community, after its own consultations, requested that it be able to access the firearm data online. Such a request meant that the program needed to be overhauled because the information system that had been put into place did not allow for that. That obviously required further funds and meant that the costs were then higher.

Higher costs were the result of several factors, one of which I just mentioned but let me mention a few others. One of the factors that created higher costs was the delay coming into force of the Firearms Act. Another was the development of the new information technology infrastructure. Another was the opting out of the program by some provinces and territories which resulted in significant one-time costs to the federal government when it had to assume responsibilities for administration in these jurisdictions. Another factor which contributed to higher costs was the loss of anticipated revenues because fees were waived as a result of a restructuring of the program and/or to encourage people to get their licences and firearm registration certificates.

Since the Auditor General presented her report, our position could not be clearer. The government has recognized the merits of these recommendations and is taking steps to improve the program's cost-effectiveness.

On February 21, 2003, as the hon. member for Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert mentioned, the Minister of Justice and the Solicitor General announced an action plan to improve the management and operation of the firearms registry program. These improvements will make the program more efficient and less costly while improving transparency and quality of service for legitimate firearms owners.

The action plan contains several significant measures to simply the program and make it more efficient. These measures include transferring responsibility for the firearms registry from the Minister of Justice to the Solicitor General. This was done on April 14.

The action plan also states that national standards and performance measures for client service and program delivery will be developed and that an external advisory committee will be established to provide regular advice and feedback on ways to improve program delivery.

There are a number of features in the action plan but the crucial point here is for Motion No. 387 to go forward, it would mean repealing the Firearms Act and related Criminal Code dispositions. That is not something which is in the best interests of Canadians.

The member herself has stated that what the program and the register have done have been of positive benefits to Canadians, to the community and to public safety. I am sure she would not want to see the Firearms Act repealed, and the only way to do what she is asking is to repeal the Firearms Act.

Canadian Firearms Control ProgramPrivate Members' Business

6 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Garry Breitkreuz Canadian Alliance Yorkton—Melville, SK

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the MP for Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert for bringing forth this very timely motion. It needs to be debated and discussed. It is a good thing also that these things are now votable.

The purpose of the motion is self-explanatory. Motion No. 387 is a votable motion calling for a public inquiry to get to the bottom of the unprecedented cost overruns in the implementation of the Canadian firearms program and to prepare a real action plan for the approval of Parliament.

Remember that members of Parliament were promised it would only cost $2 million to taxpayers to fully implement the program. The government has known for two years that the program would cost more than $1 billion but only provided these estimates to Parliament on March 27. The government has also admitted that the program will not be fully implemented until at least 2008.

When a program is overbudget, 500 times what it was originally slated to cost, that is reason enough for this motion to be supported and a full investigation to take place.

The estimates for 2003-04 call for spending a further $113 million plus the $15 million overrun that the ASD contractor has indicated is needed.

The government estimates are still grossly understated because the justice departments's plans and priorities report for 2003-04 was tabled in March with 111 blanks. These are areas where the government could not tell us how much money is being spent; 111 blanks that have to be filled in with past expenditures and future spending forecasts by departments. We have been waiting five months since the Auditor General's report for answers as to how much it will cost.

A government that is unable to give an account of how much a major program costs is another reason that this motion should be supported.

These are sufficient reasons for everyone in this House to vote yes to this motion.

Additionally, the government so far has refused to provide the unreported costs of enforcement. The unreported costs of compliance, as identified by the Auditor General, have not been reported to Parliament. The Library of Parliament estimated that enforcement costs alone could easily cost one billion more dollars.

The government has also refused to release a cost benefit analysis. A 115 page report on the economic impact of the Firearms Act was not released either because the government declared these documents to be cabinet secrets. We have a right to know.

The motion is also consistent with calls by eight provinces and three territories to have the program suspended pending a value for money audit by the Auditor General. This is what the provinces and territories are asking for. The Auditor General has stated that she will not conduct a value for money audit until at least 2005.

A public inquiry is desirable in this instance because critical questions still need to be answered before another $1 billion is wasted and because the government persists in the policy of keeping Parliament and the public in the dark. We need this inquiry.

The motion may require an amendment to ensure that some elements of the program continue while the public inquiry is being conducted, such as background checks for people wishing to acquire firearms, amnesty to ensure persons are not criminalized for unfinished paperwork and so on.

I want to give a list of reasons as to why we need a public inquiry into the federal firearms fiasco beyond what I have just mentioned.

The first reason is the government still has not admitted what the total cost of the firearms program has been so far.

The second reason is the government still has not admitted what the total cost will be to fully implement the firearms program. That is another big reason to support this motion.

The third reason is that Treasury Board officials finally admitted that even they will not know the total cost of the firearms program until the fall.

The fourth reason is the government has been hiding the truth from Parliament and the public for seven years and has not been forthright in the last five months.

The fifth reason is the government refuses to reveal the costs of enforcement and compliance as recommended by the Auditor General.

The sixth reason is the government refuses to release the cost benefit analysis on the firearms program by declaring it a cabinet secret. There is no excuse for this.

The seventh reason is it is 21 months later and the Privacy Commissioner is still waiting for the justice minister's response to his many recommendations about the mishandling of private and personal information in the firearms program.

The eighth reason we need this inquiry is there are more than 500,000 gun owners in Canada who failed to obtain a firearms licence and cannot register their guns without one.

The ninth reason is more than 600,000 individuals still have to register or re-register their firearms before the end of June and the justice department officials admitted they have received only 53,000 letters of intent to register, to comply with the legislation. That means possibly half a million gun owners out there who cannot comply with the legislation legally are going to be made criminals, are criminals, and there is nothing they can do about it.

The tenth reason is the government refuses to release the entire 115 page report on the economic impact of the gun registry, once again declaring it a cabinet secret. Canadians have the right to know. The government made some claims a few moments ago about how effective the gun registry is, why we cannot put it on hold. If that is true, and I seriously doubt that because the government's impression that this is gun control is really spurious if one examines it, but we have the right to know what the economic impact is on Canadians. That should be told to us. We have the right to know what the cost benefit analysis is as well.

The eleventh reason is up to 10 million guns still have to be registered. For $1 billion we have likely registered only one-third of the guns in Canada. There are 10 million still to be registered.

The twelfth reason is five million registered firearms still have to be verified by the RCMP. The entire network of verification was scrapped so we have a bunch of garbage in the registry system. It is totally inaccurate. The police cannot use it.

The thirteenth reason is 78% of the firearms registered have blank or unknown entries. These are errors in the system. Some 78% of the registration certificates sent in have errors on them. This error rate also is clear evidence that it is a huge garbage collection system that is really not useful to anyone.

The fourteenth reason is there are 813,000 firearms that have been registered without serial numbers. They cannot be uniquely identified. That was one of the reasons the government originally said it wanted to have this, so that all firearms could be uniquely identified.

The fifteenth reason is there are 131,000 persons prohibited from owning firearms by the courts who are not tracked by the system. There are 9,000 persons who have had their firearms refused or removed and are not tracked by the system.

The sixteenth reason is tens of thousands of licensed gun owners cannot be located in the system. Tens of thousands have information there and nobody can find it.

The seventeenth reason is eight provinces and three territories want the gun registry suspended or scrapped. The government overrode them. It did not consult with them. That accounts for the huge mess we have.

The eighteenth reason is the western provinces are refusing to prosecute Firearms Act offences. If this is criminal law and it is useful, why would the provinces want the federal government to get rid of it?

The nineteenth reason is three constitutional challenges by the aboriginal people are currently before the courts and the gun registration for the Inuit people has been stopped by the court injunction. We are going to have huge court cases in regard to this. It is going to cost us a lot more money and in the end it will likely be thrown out anyway.

In conclusion, I do not agree with all the comments made by the MP who brought this forward but this is an excellent motion. It should be supported by everyone in the House and maybe we can make some minor amendments to it. The assumptions the government makes that this is effective gun control also need to be examined. I do believe Canadians have the right to know how much this costs. We need a public inquiry into this. There should be an investigation.

I thank the member for bringing this motion forward. I hope all MPs in the House will support it.

Canadian Firearms Control ProgramPrivate Members' Business

6:10 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Lanctôt Bloc Châteauguay, QC

Mr. Speaker, the motion put forward by the hon. member for Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert states, and I quote:

That, in the opinion of this House, the government should immediately suspend application of the Canadian Firearms Programme in order to hold a public inquiry into the reasons for the Programme's extraordinary cost overruns, and to submit a structured and detailed strategic plan that would have to be approved in advance by this House.

I rise today as the Bloc Quebecois critic on issues relating to the Solicitor General, to inform hon. members of the position of the Bloc Quebecois on the motion put forward by the hon. member for Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert.

I have been following with great interest the development of firearms program for quite a while, in my capacity as the Bloc Quebecois critic for justice. First, I wish to point out that we oppose the motion as it stands. I could eventually receive our support. I will discuss later the amendment I would like to propose.

We oppose the motion, as it stands, despite the fact that we do believe light has to be shed on the mismanagement of the firearms program.

We want to make it clear that we still believe in the program. It is essential, and we support its implementation. Like the hon. member for Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, we feel the need for an independent public inquiry to shed light on what happened during the implementation of this program that resulted in a financial fiasco. However, this program must not be suspended for any reason.

While the Bloc Quebecois supports the program, we find it regrettable that those in charge of the program did such a sloppy job implementing it, with disastrous results. We must admit that this program is a managerial disaster.

The Minister of Justice recently tabled reports designed to determine the financial integrity of the program and to improve its poor management. At the time of their tabling, we expressed skepticism about the relevance of these reports.

We were skeptical, and disappointed with how long it took to release them. Since then, we have naturally become distrustful of any explanation provided by a minister on anything having to do with the so-called transparency of this centralizing government. How are we be expected to believe any explanation regarding this government's incompetence? Let me just cite the sponsorships scandal, which opened our eyes about the reliability of ministers' explanations.

As I said at the beginning of my speech, the Bloc Quebecois disagrees with the current wording of the motion, because it asks that the program be suspended. This would undo completely all that has been done so far by Quebeckers under this program, and this would be very unfortunate.

I think that it is important to preserve all the work done by Quebec experts. I am thinking specifically about the expert work done by the officers and members of the Sûreté du Québec. It is important to mention that this work is recognized by all stakeholders in this issue, including the Liberal federal government. So we would be in favour of the motion, of course with an amendment that would not specify suspension, but that would call for a public inquiry. It would be very good if the wording of the motion were amended accordingly.

The Bloc Quebecois has always supported the principle behind the firearms program and we will continue to do so. However, we also believe that we must know the full details of the reasons that have led to this intrusion into the management of the program.

Consequently, we cannot support the request that the firearms program be suspended, because we do not know how long such an inquiry might last, which may well jeopardize the program.

As I said earlier, we believe that this program must continue. It must certainly be reviewed, corrected and studied, but it must absolutely not be abolished or even suspended.

Consequently, we would be in favour of an independent public inquiry that would allow us to get to the bottom of what led to these uncontrollable cost overruns, provided of course that the program continues during this inquiry.

It is a concern to see that this problem was only discovered because of the insistence of opposition members. It is also a concern to realize that it would appear that the government was not aware of the disastrous situation. How could this be? It is also a concern to realize that if it were aware of it, it waited that long to inquire into the problem. I find it inconceivable that no one at the Department of Justice saw fit to deal with the crisis before it got out of control. However, this is exactly what happened. We cannot accept it.

This is a blatant example of the laissez-faire attitude of the federal government , which preferred to take advantage of its position of power, free from any public oversight, and, what is more, free from any parliamentary oversight. Once more, elected representatives were kept in the dark, and this too is unacceptable.

All this is very indicative of the attitude of the federal government toward the public. It would appear that public interest is no longer at the heart of its policies, something the Bloc Quebecois has been criticizing for quite a long time.

It is becoming increasingly obvious that the government is losing touch with the public to whom it is accountable by preventing parliamentarians from properly playing their role of elected representatives. True, this program is worthwhile and necessary, and must be maintained. However, we are being kept in the dark as to its implementation and this is why we believe it is time to an independent public inquiry were held, without shutting the program down.

Yes, the thrust of the program is good, and this is why the Bloc Quebecois is also asking that it be implemented provided of course that we get to the bottom of this fiasco. It is high time to put an end to the unacceptable behaviour of the federal government, which is delighted with the inept and flawed management of such an important and necessary program.

I find it very sad that the legitimacy of this program is threatened by such systemic mismanagement. In spite of what the minister said in trying to justify this financial fiasco, this program is necessary. We must get to the bottom of this administrative mess in order to deal with the root causes of this inept management.

The Bloc Quebecois emphasizes that this government needs to assume responsibility and speak out against those responsible for this administrative fiasco so that the necessary sanctions may be applied. The time for keeping silent is past. Our role as parliamentarians is to represent our fellow citizens and to take action.

The public has had enough of secrecy. The public has had enough of feeble excuses from this government for its mistakes. The time has come to do something. It is time to have a clear explanation of what happened in this administrative and financial disaster.

Parliamentarians are entitled to ask any and all questions of this central government in order to find out all the details about how this useful and necessary program turned into a questionable undertaking.

As I have said, we are opposed to any suspension, regardless of duration. We might be able to support an independent public inquiry if that could help cast some light on what lies behind the financial disaster of the Firearms Control Program, provided this does not affect its continuation.

We are therefore opposed to the motion as it is now worded, and as I have said, I will be proposing an amendment immediately after I speak. As it stands, this would endanger the very existence of the program, and its purpose of protecting the public.

Firearms control is surrounded by numerous myths, it is true, but concealing the details surrounding the financial fiasco will only create some real concerns about the federal government's credibility, concerns that are wholly justified.

In closing, I move:

That the motion be amendedby deleting the word “suspend” and substituting the following:“study the”.

Canadian Firearms Control ProgramPrivate Members' Business

6:20 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

As for the wording proposed, I rule that it is in order.

I would now like to ask the member who moved the motion if she would consent to having it modified.

Canadian Firearms Control ProgramPrivate Members' Business

6:20 p.m.

Bloc

Pierrette Venne Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have already been consulted on this, and I fully support the amendment.

Canadian Firearms Control ProgramPrivate Members' Business

6:20 p.m.

NDP

Libby Davies NDP Vancouver East, BC

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have the opportunity to rise in the House to speak to the motion put forward by the member for Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert. We have just had an amendment placed before the House, but the original motion that was suggested by the member reads:

That, in the opinion of this House, the government should immediately suspend application of the Canadian Firearms Programme in order to hold a public inquiry into the reasons for the programme's extraordinary cost overruns, and to submit a structured and detailed strategic plan that would have to be approved in advance by this House.

I realize that the amendment has now been put and the member has accepted it, but I did want to say that we in the NDP, while we understand the intent of the member's motion to draw attention to the need for further scrutiny of the massive mismanagement of the gun registration program, find that the motion as worded and laid out in the House today is very problematic. It is problematic for us in that it requires the whole program to be suspended.

It is important to note that two-thirds of the firearms program, although many people refer to it as the gun registry program or the gun control program, has to do with the licensing of gun owners. Certainly, from the point of view of the NDP, we support the licensing of gun owners. It is something that is often overlooked in terms of what the program is actually about because the attention has been focused on the gun registry. It is important to note that the majority of the costs of the program are associated with the licensing.

There is a lot of information that is not known by members of the House in terms of what has taken place with the program. I have been following some of the debate, not only in the House but also in committees, and I know that the public accounts committee has been tracking and monitoring the program.

We are not talking about a small cost overrun of a program where we would go through the estimates, pick up on something, and notice there was a problem. Then through a committee we would begin to ask questions. We are not talking about a small overrun of 5% or 10%. Even that in some circumstances would be a serious issue. We are talking about a program which has a difference of about 500 times the original estimate, something with which the public accounts committee has been grappling.

As recently as March 17, 2003, our finance critic, the member for Winnipeg North Centre, was doing an excellent job in committee questioning the President of the Treasury Board as to why, when in 1999 a $41 million contingency fund was established, this would not have set off all kinds of alarm bells to which all departments would have been alerted? Why would there not have been some sort of extraordinary program put in place immediately to deal with what was a massive contingency that the government was forced to bring forward. It is interesting, in reading through the records of the public accounts committee, what the President of the Treasury Board said on March 17:

At present, as President of Treasury Board, I transmit those reports to Parliament. They are not checked line by line by the Treasury Board Secretariat. It is only after they are tabled that some problems may come to light.

She goes on to say:

...the situation has also sent a strong message to the Treasury Board Secretariat, which has to be much more proactive in overseeing information quality.

I certainly appreciate the comment from the President of the Treasury Board, but it is really mind-boggling to think of a major project such as this when in fact in earlier testimony the Auditor General has made it very clear that the firearms and the gun registry program was classified as a major crown project and that as a result certain rigorous reporting requirements should have been met. Given that context and that history, it really is quite astounding that even when the first problems came to light and these massive contingencies began to emerge in terms of a financial commitment by the government to pour money into this program, still there was nothing that was done in terms of an emergency response or an accounting through the House, which could have corrected the problem at that time.

I think this has really highlighted a major problem within government operations. In fact, as I have remarked before in the House, if we had a culture and an environment where estimates were treated more seriously in the committee process, maybe again this would have been a procedure whereby these serious problems would have come to light earlier for members of the House to address.

Clearly, the onus is on the government's side. The onus for the management of this program is on the government's side.

I would say that the need for an inquiry is something that is very strongly supported. Within our own caucus we have members who strongly support gun registration. We have other members who have serious problems with the registration aspect on a matter of principle. Our leader, Jack Layton, supports gun registration, but all of us have been deeply concerned about the mismanagement of this program and how the government itself, through its lack of foresight and through its lack of transparency and accountability, has actually created the crisis that now places this program in jeopardy. In fact, the very credibility of the government is one of the issues that we are debating in examining this program.

The amendment has been placed before the House. The motion has now been amended. We in the NDP believe that it is necessary to have a thorough investigation of what has taken place here. We want to ensure that there is full transparency and accountability to Parliament for this program and for the expenditures that have happened in the past and are now being sought for the future.

Canadian Firearms Control ProgramPrivate Members' Business

6:25 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The time provided for the consideration of private members' business has now expired and the order is dropped to the bottom of the order of precedence on the Order Paper.

A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to have been moved.

Canadian Firearms Control ProgramAdjournment Proceedings

6:25 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Greg Thompson Progressive Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB

Mr. Speaker, the first question asked on the SARS issue in the House came from this party, me personally, on March 21 when I put the question to the health minister and the response came from her parliamentary secretary. We knew from the get-go that Canada was in trouble on this file. I want to go back to exactly how the parliamentary secretary, on instructions from the Minister of Health, answered that question.

I wanted to know what we were doing as a country to contain and control that disease. Quoting directly from Hansard of March 21 of this year, this is what the parliamentary secretary said on behalf of the Minister of Health:

We know that it is not a real threat because the virus has been traced back to Hong Kong. There have only been a few cases in Canada that have come from there.

We know it is a real threat. We know that the Government of Canada has not handled it well at all, the reason being that there was a total lack of leadership on this file.

You have heard this speech before, Mr. Speaker, because you were in the chair the other night when we had an emergency debate on SARS. That emergency debate was not brought to the floor of the House by the government nor any of the other opposition parties in the House. That emergency debate was brought to the floor of the House of Commons by the Progressive Conservative Party, by me personally, as the health critic.

The Prime Minister takes great delight in pointing down into this corner and saying that the fifth party in the House of Commons is the smallest party, and he is absolutely right. We are the smallest party. However we took this issue seriously and we wanted it brought to the floor of the House of Commons. We were the ones who forced that debate on the floor of the House of Commons.

Until that night, the Minister of Health never stood in her place to take responsibility for that issue. She simply did not do that. She was basically hiding on the issue. She was hiding on the most critical health issue probably in the history of Canada. The minister was not to be seen. I am not making this up as I go along. Her own cabinet colleague confirmed she was in hiding.

In addition to the health minister being in hiding, the Prime Minister himself was on an extended golf vacation in South America. There is an old expression that when the going gets tough, the tough get going, but with the Prime Minister, the expression is, when the going gets tough, the tough go golfing. There was an absolute absence of leadership on this file.

I am looking forward to hearing how the parliamentary secretary will respond this evening. I want him to specifically explain his statement when he told us in the House on March 21 that it was “not a real threat”. How could it be anything but a real threat when there is no cure, when there is only containment and control, none of which the Government of Canada exercised?

Canadian Firearms Control ProgramAdjournment Proceedings

6:30 p.m.

Madawaska—Restigouche New Brunswick

Liberal

Jeannot Castonguay LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Health

Mr. Speaker, obviously my colleague from New Brunswick raises a question that is both relevant and timely.

I am therefore pleased to speak today, to be able to share with the House and with Canadians the meaningful measures taken by the Government of Canada, and Health Canada in particular, to deal with severe acute respiratory syndrome.

Since the first case of SARS was identified in Canada in early March, we have made a great deal of progress. We must be clear. Our priority is to protect the health and welfare—

Canadian Firearms Control ProgramAdjournment Proceedings

6:30 p.m.

An hon. member

Oh, oh.

Canadian Firearms Control ProgramAdjournment Proceedings

6:30 p.m.

Liberal

Jeannot Castonguay Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

I hear some noise in the House. Is it just me? In any case, it is annoying me.

Our priority is to protect the health and welfare of Canadians.

The member, in her question on March 21, asked if the Minister of Health had met with her provincial counterparts. My main message is that the minister and all those involved at the federal level are working day and night with their provincial, territorial and international partners to ensure that measures are in place to contain the spread of SARS.

We are actively working with our partners in the six targeted sectors: investigation, diagnosis, laboratory, infection control, travel treatment and emergency response.

Let me elaborate on how the minister has co-operated not only with her provincial counterparts but also with all the authorities involved in this issue. We have implemented measures at airports, and these measures are improved as required to stop the spread of SARS.

We have sent 14 epidemiologist and infectious disease experts to Toronto to take part in the analysis. At the national microbiology laboratory and elsewhere, our experts and the scientific community are doing active research to find the cause of SARS in order to develop an effective diagnostic test while examining the possibility of developing a vaccine.

We have implemented measures to protect our blood system. We have provided detailed clinical directives to prevent infection. We have made recommendations regarding measures to be taken in public health care institutions.

We just completed today a meeting with international experts in Toronto to review what is known about SARS. This conference was called by the federal health minister. On the national stage, Canada was one of the first countries to follow up on the WHO recommendations regarding passenger screening. The WHO has recognized the transparency that we have shown in this matter.

We will continue our relentless efforts to stop the spread of SARS and to protect the health of Canadians. Obviously, other things will surface because there is still a lot of unknown with regard to this issue. However, the important thing is to continue working together to contain this disease, which we have already done since all cases have been tracked to the initial point.

Canadian Firearms Control ProgramAdjournment Proceedings

6:35 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Greg Thompson Progressive Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB

Mr. Speaker, I can hardly believe what the parliamentary secretary said. He is the same man who, on behalf of the Minister of Health, stood in the House and on the first question from the opposition on the containment and control of SARS, said with his own two lips, “We know that this is not a real threat”. How could he possibly say that? He then went on to talk about what the health minister did.

The health minister was scrambling after the fact, trying to make up for lost time and mistakes that were made on the part of her ministry because she paid no attention to the file, along with the Prime Minister, I might add, who also paid no attention to it.

Both the Minister of Health and the Prime Minister were partners in neglect on this file. I think the record will show it, and the Canadian public will not forgive them for mishandling the biggest health crisis in Canada's history. Thank goodness it is now under control because of the good work of our health care officials, nurses and doctors, not the Government of Canada.

Canadian Firearms Control ProgramAdjournment Proceedings

6:35 p.m.

Liberal

Jeannot Castonguay Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

Mr. Speaker, I would like to provide some information. On April 3, Dr. David Heymann, the executive director of the communicable diseases unit, indicated that “Canada is doing an exemplary activity and much of what has been going on in Canada, including the system of notifying airline passengers and of screening airline passengers, has been shared with other countries as an example of best practices”.

Today, May 1, here is what Dr. Heymann had to say after the Toronto conference.

He also said, “Canada was doing everything right, including screening passengers as they left.

Obviously, when we look at the situation as a whole, we can say that an excellent job has been done and I am very proud of the minister's part in it. She was the quarterback who made sure that all the stakeholders countrywide were in place to ensure that the disease was monitored.

Canadian Firearms Control ProgramAdjournment Proceedings

6:35 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

A motion to adjourn the House is now deemed to have been adopted. Accordingly, the House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 10 a.m. pursuant to Standing Order 24.

(The House adjourned at 6:38 p.m.)