House of Commons Hansard #103 of the 37th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was plan.

Topics

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4:05 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague from Saint-Jean. Yes, especially since president Bush is not even hiding his intentions.

On May 23, 2000, in a speech that he made with General Colin Powell by his side, he explained very well—and reporters summarized it—the ideology and new philosophy of the Americans. They said that this strategy:

—is based on the absolute superiority that the United States has acquired in all defence sectors... Its supporters conclude that it is in the Americans' interest to turn away from notions of mutual deterrence and parity... According to them, we have to reduce nuclear arsenals to the maximum... The United States' sole interest is to strike and to arm itself.

This is a fact. We cannot, as a peaceful people, as Quebeckers, follow the Americans. It is simple. They are our neighbours and they have a philosophy that is different from ours. This is quite simple to understand.

It is not that we are against the Americans. It is just that, deep down, in our hearts and souls, we believe that it would be easier to have peace if we did not arm ourselves with deterrents, as the Americans want to do with the space shield. This is quite simple, this is not so difficult to understand.

The Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs recommended that we say no, it is too dangerous right now. And the government has decided, for all sorts of other reasons, that Canadians and Quebeckers are fundamentally pacifists.

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4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Charles Caccia Liberal Davenport, ON

Mr. Speaker, I would like to begin by thanking our colleague, the member for Saint-Jean, for the opportunity of having this debate. At the same time, I would like to thank, from the civil society outside the House, John Polanyi and Jeffrey Simpson for their contribution to this debate.

Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with my colleague from Oakville. I will cover three items: Norad, the weaponization of space and the North American security theme.

Members must have heard the idea put forward by some that the issue of the missile defence system is a natural extension of the Norad agreement. This view has been propounded by many who have spoken inside and outside the House.

It seems to me that this notion is historically incorrect. We had Norad for very good reasons. When we had two super powers, Canada was sandwiched in between and it was therefore natural for Canada to seek the protection of the Norad umbrella during the cold war and tensions between the two super powers.

That situation no longer exists and Norad is dying, if it is not already dead. The question therefore arises, why should we continue to believe that there is room for the continuation of Norad if its raison d'être is no longer there? We now have one super power and a situation which is completely different in terms of the relationships between nations than the one which existed when the Soviet Union was around. The notion of Norad is the wrong idea to invoke as a reason for entering the missile system as a logical next step.

The next item is one that has been raised in some discussions before this debate, and that is the possibility of the weaponization of space. There are some people who say that this is unlikely. However, we have heard some evidence from discussions that have taken place before certain committees in Washington that weaponization of space, even if it is not envisaged in the near and immediate future, is a strong possibility 10 or 20 years from now, or later on, when the technology would be there. Or, when, perish the thought, the funds might be available and when the view will emerge that we have to do that for technological, military and other reasons.

In other words, the assurance being given so far to Canada that the missile system that is being proposed would not lead to the weaponization of space should not be taken as an assurance that would give us a sense of confidence.

On the contrary, there are good reasons and a good case can be made for the possibility of weaponization of space to take place eventually at a time that perhaps will emerge with the next generation of parliamentarians and government leaders. We should take that possibility very seriously now rather than shift it as a responsibility on the shoulders of the next wave of responsible people.

Then we come to the notion that I find particularly disturbing, that we should engage in a missile defence system that would protect North America, particularly the U.S.A. and Canada.

This concept means that we would attribute less importance to other continents and to the security of the rest of the globe. This concept leads to the conclusion that we would feel more secure in a fortress North America situation than in a global security system and that we would be better off by being secure as two nations entrenched in a defensive situation in North America against the rest of the world that might wish to attack us. I find that particularly disturbing.

The fact that we would enter the missile system proposed by the U.S., whose motives I do not question and which is a nation that has every reason to engage in any form of protection of its own territory, would mean that our security could be reduced by entering the system because we would attract attention by being part of that system should there ever be some form of attack on North America.

Our security would be greater by not being part of this American defensive system. The logic of that would then lead to the necessity of discussing the possibility of an initiative that would be an alternative to the one that is being proposed, namely the possibility of launching at the United Nations an initiative that would lead to an international convention for the destruction of nuclear weapons, long range missiles and so on. Then we would be talking in terms of global security and not just regional security.

What would be the purpose if we were to engage in a system to protect North America but leave out South America, Europe, Asia or Africa? Certainly we would not achieve that kind of global security which has been on the agenda and has been the purpose of intensive work on the part of government leaders and parliamentarians, and which led to the creation of the Helsinki agreement, the non-proliferation treaty and so on.

The number of initiatives that were initiated before our pages were born in the seventies is remarkable. All of a sudden we are abandoning that important thrust and retreating to North America, and saying that we had better protect ourselves and somehow the rest of the globe can take care of itself.

To conclude, I would like to put forward a number of questions. Where are the weapons of mass destruction that we are afraid of and where are they stored? Where will they really generate from? There is no evidence so far that there is a danger to North America that is visible on the horizon.

Who is the enemy? This is also an important question that we ought to examine. We have heard a lot of theories, but we still do not know who the enemy is. One of the two superpowers has disappeared. It was considered to be the big enemy, but it has evaporated and no one really has taken its place in the form of a government, a state, an army, or a threat by a nation that is threatening other states with its missile system.

The third question is, when will we initiate the kind of multilateral initiative? The missile defence system is a bilateral possibility which I hope Canada will not engage in because once we are engaged in it we will have much weight at the table, as some speakers before me have indicated.

When will we develop an alternative initiative that will be of a multilateral nature that will attempt and endeavour to give the rest of the world, and not just in North America, the sense of security that is needed against this proliferation of arms and the potential missiles that are being waved around to produce this environment of fear and uncertainty about the future?

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4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Mr. Speaker, I want to tell my Liberal colleague that I have always admired his great experience in international relations. He has just delivered a speech that demonstrates his extensive experience.

If I understand his approach correctly, he is a strong believer in multilateralism as a solution to international problems. His position that we cannot defend just North America and let the rest of the world fend for itself is therefore certainly reflective of his way of thinking.

Does he not think that, with this multilateral approach, we should, as a country or as a member of the UN and other international fora, be pressing for a reduction in the world's nuclear arsenal as well as the number of delivery systems? Could I take this further and say that we should be insisting on a reduction in the number of nuclear warheads and delivery systems instead of implementing a missile defence system?

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4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Charles Caccia Liberal Davenport, ON

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for Saint-Jean for his kind words.

My competence is not as great as he thinks. I am just talking as another parliamentarian.

I believe in multilateralism. It has served Canada well. We have pursued that through the United Nations quite effectively in the sixties, the seventies and the eighties. We are now facing a situation which is so difficult and dangerous mostly because of the bellicose policies emanating out of Washington than any other reason. This is why we are facing this kind of dilemma.

If the policies emanating out of Washington were of a multilateral nature, I do not think that we would be facing this problem. We would not be talking about this form of defence where we do not know who the enemy is and what the alternative is. There is no parallel initiative being taken to the United Nations by the United States and I hope that Canada will perhaps take it in order to develop a parallel measure to counter this bellicose atmosphere that will lead eventually to an international convention on the gradual phasing out of the weapons system.

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4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Bonnie Brown Liberal Oakville, ON

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the mover of the motion for putting the question of Canada's participation in national missile defence on the agenda of the House.

We all know that debate has raged in the media, in the corridors of power and in the private caucus meetings of the various political parties. It is time now for the debate to become open to the people of Canada.

Canadian proponents of our participation in the missile defence system are low bridging the concept by saying, first, it is “not a big deal”; second, we are “just considering talking”; third, that our participation would “keep Norad viable”; fourth, that it “won't cost anything”; and, fifth, that it is “merely defensive”.

They are characterizing this possibility as a small, benign issue as in the vernacular, no big deal. I disagree. It is a big deal for a variety of reasons. Since the second world war, enlightened nations, including Canada, have worked to establish international treaties and institutions to deal with threats to peace through diplomacy, aid packages and an atmosphere of hope and co-operation.

We were not always successful, particularly when it came to bloody civil wars, but one could feel some progress.

Terrorism has arisen as a knife to puncture our hope. We are right to be fearful of terrorism but we should not let that knife puncture all the mechanisms we have developed in our search for peace on this planet.

In the past few years there has developed a new way of looking at the world, a world with lists of rogue states, failed states and willing states, good states and evil states; a world of increased military security and decreased human rights, a world with the threat of pre-emptive strikes hanging over our heads. This is a world of no hope, of little optimism and seems to me to be based on fear and paranoia. All this is a massive change in the evolution of our civilization and, to me, represents a large step backward in time, back to an era when might was right.

Unfortunately, the proponent of most of these phrases and of this world view is our potential partner in national missile defence. If we agree to participate, do we not indicate agreement with this fear motivated view of the world? This would be a radical change in Canada's outlook on the world and therefore it is a big deal.

We have been told that Canada is just considering talking to the Americans about it. On the other hand, the American ambassador on television characterized it as “serious negotiations”. Surely no one expects that they will hold talks about an advanced, highly technological project without a firm commitment to participate. If we get in by giving a commitment, how do we then honourably get out? If we do not like what we hear halfway through the process, what is our exit strategy?

We have also been told that this project with our participation might keep Norad viable. The American ambassador has implied that if we participate the project would stay within Norad and if we do not that it would go to Northcom. He has implied that but an implication is not a guarantee.

In an age of unmanned aircraft and smart missiles, is Norad the organization of the future or is the United States planning to abandon it and fold MDS into Northcom, and, as a partner in MDS, might Canada not be folded in as well? That would accomplish its stated goal of a continental security perimeter, and possibly integration of our armed forces for land and sea, as well as air and space. Is this in the best interest of Canadians?

Some might say that this is fantasy but all speculation about the future is fantasy and, as parliamentarians, it is our responsibility to consider all possibilities.

We also have been told by the proponents that it will not cost anything. Right now that seems to be true in the monetary sense, but there is a potential piece of legislation circulating in the congress called the missile defence burdensharing act, an act that requires the president to name which countries are protected by MDS and an act which requires the president to seek contributions from those protected nations. This act is on the back burner right now but will it stay there when American citizens realize the state of their economy?

Here are some current facts on that front: 49 of 50 states experienced net job losses last year; the annual deficit is now higher per capita than ours was in 1993; budget plans show no attempt to rectify the situation. Instead they show less money coming in to the treasury because of tax cuts and a massive outflow of expenditures on the military. The media report that there exists over $30 trillion in unfunded pension liability in the states. Rght now the United States has to raise $1.5 billion a day from foreign sources. This makes the Americans very vulnerable, as they are economically dependent upon the savings of others.

As a Canadian, these economic indicators worry me. I hear a loud warning trumpet heralding a transfer of money into the pockets of the rich through tax cuts and outflow of funding to the military and MDS, and away from health, education and social security. How long will it be before American citizens demand that countries under the umbrella of MDS pay their fair share? Only the very young think that anything in this world is for free.

In addition, the cost is not just calculated in dollars. Travellers know our Canadian passport is welcomed around the world. Canada has a long tradition of peacekeeping and peace seeking. Our history includes such statesmen as Lester Pearson and Lloyd Axworthy, who helped to establish our good reputation around the world. Are we willing to jeopardize it by partnering in a project like MDS? If we give our seal of approval by participating, what would be the long term cost to our reputation?

Proponents of MDS claim that it is not star wars, that it does not include the weaponization of space. Right now that appears to be true, but will it last? How can we trust that to continue when the United States has a new basis for its foreign affairs and defence policy?

This document, called “A New Security Agenda for the United States of America”, is based on its self-declared right to conduct pre-emptive strikes or military aggression against any nation that it deems to be a threat. This is a policy based on offence, not defence. How could one possibly keep one section of a military arsenal strictly defensive when the national defence policy is stated in the document as offensive and aggressive?

Another clue to this question of offence or defence can be found in American budget estimates for 2004 which propose spending $2.5 billion in rebuilding the country's nuclear weapons manufacturing industry. One example is $320 million to build new plutonium cores for nuclear warheads. Another example is $135 million to restart the production of tritium, a development seen as the first tangible action which shows a commitment to expanding the nuclear arsenal, not just maintaining it. For those of us concerned about the proliferation of nuclear weapons, these budget estimates are ominous.

If any doubt remains, the United States space command vision statement makes it clear. Its “Vision for 2020” document says that “NMD will evolve into a mix of ground and space sensors and weapons”.

The only way to deal with the threat of ballistic missiles is to negotiate disarmament measures that will get rid of them. Canada should work for a global ban on missile flight tests, which are essential for the development of missile technology but are easily detectable by satellite. The way forward lies in supporting international law and implementing a negotiated agreement, such as the non-proliferation treaty.

With all the problems in the world which the international community must urgently address, from the growing gap between rich and poor, a gap which feeds the recruitment of terrorists, to serious environmental degradation which threatens us all, joining in a costly and so far technologically deficient system which might seal interoperability of Canadian military forces with the Americans is not a small matter but a huge question and one that should be explored from every possible angle before a decision is made.

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4:30 p.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Mr. Speaker, first I want to thank my colleague for her presentation, which I think was well researched. I want to thank her for bringing new information to this debate. There is the whole issue of the integration of armies should we take part in the missile defence system. It is very interesting.

I also want to tell her that we totally agree with her when she says that we will be caught up in the process. From the moment we sit at the table and say that, if the missile defence system is only ground-based or on ships, we agree, there will be no turning back. It will last a few years, and then it will be time for the space shield. It will be very difficult for us to walk away from the table. I totally agree with her on that.

She raised another interesting point, and that is the cost of the space shield for those countries that will participate. But there is not only the financial cost of Canada's potential participation in the space shield, there is also the integration of armies that could happen at some point. So there is more than the financial cost.

I often ask this question. Here, everyone knows my political views and the colour of my political blood. There is no doubt about the fact that I am a sovereignist. I think that any attack on Canada's sovereignty is not good for Quebec.

When part of our army is integrated, when we take part in the missile defence system that covers the United States and Canada, we become very vulnerable. We can become the target of blackmail. I believe that this can jeopardize Canada's sovereignty, and it is a sovereignist who is saying so.

I want to know if my colleague believes that there is a higher price to pay than the financial cost, namely the loss of Canada's sovereignty.

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4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Bonnie Brown Liberal Oakville, ON

Mr. Speaker, my colleague touches on two or three points.

On the cost factor, I would like to say that not only might we be expected to help pay our share, but we also have to keep in mind that the very bad economic indicators coming from business journalists in the United States suggest to me that we, whose economy is so integrated with the United States, those people are our best customers and our best trading partners, it worries me about the effects on our economy if their national treasury does not have enough money in it if in fact these huge tax cuts drain it at the same time as they are making massive military expenditures.

It would seem to me that has a very negative effect on our economy and the ability of our people to sell products to a nation which has been characterized by some as not only the world's super power, but essentially the world's super debtor right now.

As to the integration of our army, navy and air force, I raised that only as a possibility. I am not sure that would happen but that would have serious effects on our sovereignty.

I would like to take the questioner back to the basic question. When one is thinking of taking on a partner in any realm, whether it is a military or economic thing, does it not help that the partner has a similar world view? As one Canadian, I reject the fact that any nation or any group of individuals can make a judgment as to who is a rogue, who has failed, who is good, who is evil, et cetera. That is a very negative way of looking at the international community. I prefer a view that gives credit where credit is due, that has international institutions that deal multilaterally with problems that arise and not use these very judgmental phrases when what we really should be seeking is co-operation, not putting others down.

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4:35 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

t is my duty pursuant to Standing Order 38 to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Burnaby—Douglas, Foreign Affairs; the hon. member for Battlefords—Lloydminster, National Defence.

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4:35 p.m.

Bloc

Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral Bloc Laval Centre, QC

Mr. Speaker, in consulting the debates held in this House in recent months, indeed over the past two years, we see that questions relating to security have occupied a predominant place in our deliberations. Although perfectly normal in the present context, what perplexes me is the tack these debates are taking. We need to keep clearly in mind that sometimes there is but a very fine line separating legitimate prevention from paranoia, and that line can be easily crossed if we lose sight of common sense. Ensuring security is not synonymous with increasing existing tensions, which is what may happen if the missile defence system is put in place.

In order to understand the various issues raised by this plan, and its consequences, I will start with a brief overview of a few historical facts. After World War II, two superpowers were at loggerheads on the ideological and psychological fronts. This so-called cold war between the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. plunged the entire world into an atmosphere of mistrust. At the time, with the known technological advances in the nuclear field, it was clear that the each belligerent had the capacity to attack the other and provoke a catastrophe that would have had a terrible outcome.

With the increase in international tension, the proliferation of nuclear weapons and weapons of mass destruction, it was inevitable that sophisticated means of defence would develop, such as the antimissile missiles. Their mission was simple: destroy all enemy missiles heading for either of the two great powers or their allies.

This situation led to so much escalation of tension and risk of attacks that in the 1970s, treaties and agreements were signed. One of them was the anti-ballistic missile or ABM treaty, signed in 1972.

The purpose of this treaty was to reduce the number of anti-missile missiles stocked by each of the great powers in order to maintain a certain balance, through a theory with the very reassuring name of “mutually assured destruction”. In short, these treaties succeeded in reducing the risks that a nuclear war would break out.

In the 1980s, U.S. President Ronald Reagan renewed the debate on anti-missile missiles with his strategic defense initiative straight out of Hollywood, nicknamed star wars. The objective was ambitious: nothing less than the militarization of space through laser-equipped satellites, or other such futuristic technologies, capable of intercepting nuclear missiles coming from the U.S.S.R. Since the technology was not yet advanced enough to support such a project, star wars faded into oblivion.

More recently, President Clinton brought the issue back to the table by approving the National Missile Defense Act in 1999. In recent months, we have been hearing about President Bush's plan, a sort of modified and updated version of star wars with anti-missile missiles.

All through these events, Canada has always taken the position that it was not appropriate to establish a missile defence plan, particularly because of the risk that it would pose in terms of an arms race.

I must make an aside here, Mr. Speaker. I will be splitting my time with the hon. member for Joliette. He is not in front of me and so I forgot him; that is quite unforgiveable.

I continue: there is no justification for the missile defence plan, because of the risk it poses in terms of an arms race. We note in passing that such a plan absolutely contravenes the spirit of the ABM treaty. Even if President Bush recently decided to no longer respect that treaty, the American decision does not make this justification less relevant.

In asking the government not to take part in this American missile defence plan, the Bloc Quebecois is opposing a renewed nuclear arms race, an inevitable consequence of the current military rhetoric. However, why must we ask the government not to take part, since Canada has always been opposed to missile defence?

There seems to be a significant reversal on the other side of the House. At least, so it seems based on some statements, particularly those by the Prime Minister, the Minister of National Defence and the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

Here are a few reasons justifying our position. First, as we mentioned earlier, implementing this kind of plan could cause a renewed arms race, at a time when the United States wants to declare war on everyone it considers too heavily armed.

Already, we know that countries like China, North Korea, Russia, as well as several European Union countries, disapprove of this kind of plan. Each is well aware of the fragile balance in which the world now hangs. A single spark could blow things sky high. Furthermore, if we support the American missile defence plan, should we adopt a similar position if European or Asian countries want to do the same? By agreeing to this plan, we are embarking on a slippery slope, down which we are sure to fall. I cannot vouch for the person taking the first step.

In addition, this is sending the wrong message to countries that are already brandishing the nuclear spectre in their psychological warfare and shows of force. India and Pakistan, which have been in a conflict for many years, could be tempted to intensify pressure on one another, should international tension increase. The consequences for global stability are still unknown and too risky.

One of the justifications for their action is the need the Americans feel to protect themselves against rogue states like North Korea, Iran, Iraq and any other country that could be a potential threat to their security. How do they reconcile renewing the arms race and their barely concealed desire to disarm the planet, or at least any country they consider a threat? The danger with such an aberration is that it fuels the anti-American sentiment that already exists in many parts of the world.

While we must recognize that every state has the right to protect its citizens from threats against them, it is important to know that this system will never guarantee 100% safety. Let us not forget that the events of September 11, 2001, had nothing of a conventional attack and that a missile defence system could not have prevented this tragedy. The same could be said about the threat of biological attacks.

Clearly, the missile defence system will only give the impression of security. However, the costs for the plan will leave much more than an impression. The cost estimates vary between $60 billion and $240 billion, in U.S. dollars, of course. Since 1983, more than $70 billion has already been spent on the initiative. We can just imagine how much this money could have done to reduce the extreme poverty in which hundreds of millions of people live, a situation that provides a fertile breeding ground for terrorism.

In conclusion, it is important to keep in mind that this plan could very well have more adverse effects than benefits. In addition to contributing to a renewal of the arms race, it will provoke anti-western and anti-American sentiment among certain groups that have very little understanding of what is happening on this side of the Atlantic. The Government of Canada must not yield to pressure, it must stand firm. Unfortunately, its determination so far has been far from convincing.

Perhaps these words, from a much celebrated intellectual among the federal Liberals will influence them, and I quote, “I do not recall ever having seen, since I started following politics, a more degrading spectacle than that of all those Liberals who flip-flopped in unison with their leader”.

Who was it who dared to utter such a comment, you may wonder? None other than Pierre Elliott Trudeau, in Cité Libre in 1963, during the Cuban missile crisis. Perhaps a little soul searching is in order for this government and for a number of its members.

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4:45 p.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague from Laval Centre for her presentation. I know that she is also a very socially committed woman. She is a former nurse, she is very open minded and she is also very knowledgeable on social issues.

I asked this question earlier, but I would like to ask it again to her, because I think that she can easily answer it.

For all of us from Quebec, does the member think that the government's position on the missile defence plan is shared by a large number of Quebeckers? Given the pacifist approach of Quebec society, would Quebeckers not prefer that money be spent in other areas of society?

Quebeckers all stand together. They support mutual assistance concepts. They do not see their future with a missile defence plan. Given the member's experience in the social area, I would like her to comment on this.

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4:45 p.m.

Bloc

Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral Bloc Laval Centre, QC

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Saint-Jean is giving me credit for more skills than I have, in fact. He will be very disappointed by what I have to say.

As for the position of Quebeckers on war, poverty and collective responsibility, ours is probably a slightly distinct society with its own point of view. In many conflicts, Quebeckers always vehemently resisted going to war. Basically, we dislike war. In the end, we prefer discussion, dialogue and compromise.

I think it is fair to say that Quebeckers would be infinitely more comfortable with a decision by international organizations where everybody has a right to participate in the debate and express their opinions. This way, we make decisions that not only do not add fuel to the flames, but defuse explosive situations.

As I see it, the U.S. missile defence plan answers the very strong need for the American people to claim to be the strongest. History shows that for thousands of years great empires have always fallen in the end. Basically because of their excesses. The U.S. missile defence plan will go down in history as an attempt to rule the world, but it will be the beginning of the end for the Americans.

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4:50 p.m.

Bloc

Pierre Paquette Bloc Joliette, QC

Mr. Speaker, it is a great pleasure for me to take part in this debate. I first want to congratulate the hon. member for Saint-Jean on his motion, which reads:

That this House urge the government not to take part in the United States' missile defence plan.

I want to thank him for this motion, because it is an opportunity to hold a debate that the government, unfortunately, did not allow us to have other than on an opposition day. This motion is not a votable one. If the government had been serious here, I know that there would have been unanimous consent to make this a votable motion.

That said, the way in which the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Government in the House are treating this issue shows their lack of respect for Canadians and Quebeckers. People are extremely worried about this missile defence plan. They are perhaps much more worried than the Prime Minister and the Liberal Party of Canada realize.

I would not be surprised, over the next few weeks, particularly with regard to the federal Liberal leadership campaign, but also the next federal election, if the missile defence plan were to become a major issue.

I am therefore asking Liberals to be cautious. It is rather paradoxical for a political opponent to do this, but I am doing so in the interests of Canada and Quebec. By making too hasty a decision, the Liberal government, the Liberal party and future Liberal party candidates must not be made to pay the price during the entire election campaign.

As one of them said in Le Devoir : “A yes now makes a no more difficult later”. So, at best it is leaving itself some leeway, taking the time to think and seeing where things lead. At worst, it is adopting a difficult to defend position that it would probably abandon in the face of concerted opposition from Canadians and Quebeckers.

Of course, these are political considerations, but they are extremely important. The Prime Minister understood this very well. No one was fooled by the fact that he made his decision about the war on Iraq during Quebec's election. I do not think that this was the only consideration, but I think it had a strong influence.

It was quite clear that an election campaign with a federal government that supported the American offensive in Iraq would have turned out differently than what we saw in recent weeks, with demonstrations every weekend. I organized demonstrations; I took part in demonstrations; I myself was astonished, and I think that other organizers were also astonished by the response from Quebeckers, by their call for peace, weekend after weekend.

Once again, I would like to thank the member for Saint-Jean for giving us this opportunity to discuss this extremely important issue. However I am disappointed that the government did not consider the issue serious enough to organize a real debate and allow a vote.

I hope that this Bloc Quebecois opposition day will allow the Liberals, the Prime Minister and the cabinet to reflect on the impact of support for the American proposal.

First, I think it has been mentioned—and I am no expert on these issues—but clearly observers and experts in this area have called into question the proposed technology, even the latest technology, in Mr. Bush's plan. So, we would be getting involved in something that might never come to pass because the technology will not work, even as modified by the American administration.

Then, and this was also mentioned, there are the astronomical costs: $60 billion to $120 billion. This money could easily be used for other purposes. The member for Laval Centre just mentioned some of these purposes. I am always surprised to see how our governments, that of Canada, but especially the Government of the United States, are able to come up with staggering amounts of money for war and military spending, yet they are unable to find money for international aid. That is particularly true of Canada. Unfortunately, it is also true of the United States, which is the most powerful country in the world.

How is it—I cannot wrap my mind around this one—that a government can consider a project that will cost between $60 billion and $120 billion to create a missile defence system, the effectiveness of which is far from having been proven, when it cannot find a few billion dollars for international aid at a time when the gap between northern and southern societies is growing, or even the gap within our own societies?

We have seen from the census and the figures released yesterday that the gap is increasing between the top 10% of our society and the bottom 10%.

I cannot accept priority being given to a plan that will take away billions of dollars, not only from the U.S. Treasury, but also from the Canadian consolidated revenue fund, when the priorities lie elsewhere, for example the fight against poverty, application of the Kyoto protocol, the search for solutions to the fiscal imbalance between the federal government and the provinces. There are other priorities far closer to Canadians than this missile defence plan.

As I have said, its usefulness will be dubious. I am sure, as all opposition members have pointed out, that the existence of such a defence system would never have stopped the September 11 attacks nor will it ever stop terrorists who use more conventional weapons. If Al Queda had had the means that some even secondary powers possess, it would not have needed to highjack planes to do what it did. It would have had weapons to attack American interests in another way. We do not know what means they will make use of in future to put across their point of view via methods all of us here oppose.

Not only is it an unwieldy and extremely costly technology, but it is also not up to the challenges identified even by the Americans in their fight against terrorism.

Looking at the existing countries, even those labelled rogue states, what can the Americans be so frightened of? The cold war is over, the great European economic powers are certainly not a threat. The former U.S.S.R., that is Russia, is facing terrible problems. China too is having a lot of problems. We have seen that with the SARS epidemic, which has shown the world the real problems their system is experiencing. It is certainly not North Korea, despite its showy foreign policy, which frightens no one. In this matter, it is playing along with the U.S. authorities. So let no one try to convince us that North Korea, Syria or the Iraq of yesterday are powers that represent a real threat to the Americans.

We must not let ourselves be taken in. As has been said, this is a strategy of the U.S. government, of President Bush, to impose U.S. authority on the world, to pass itself off as the world's policeman. This we cannot accept. The Canadian government has never accepted that in the past, and Quebeckers will not accept it either.

We must not have any illusions. It is clear from the pre-emptive attack on Iraq. It is clear from the decision of the U.S. government and the coalition to rebuild Iraq, with the UN almost outside the process instead of occupying a central role. In supporting this plan, we are helping to marginalize the United Nations, and all multilateral activity in the world, particularly in the west.

Furthermore, it is part of an industrial strategy. I find that the Canadian government is being incredibly naive. It is clear that all of national defence and all the spending on the missile defence plan will not be covered by the WTO or the FTAA.

We already know that there are American farmers whose fields are irrigated by the U.S. army. That is not a subsidy because it is not covered by international treaties on international trade.

The $60 to $120 billion that will be spent will be spent outside multilateral trade treaties. And who will pay for all that? In large part, it will be the Canadian economy.

This is nothing new. The Americans have always wanted to use the conquest of space and the military-industrial complex to develop their civilian industries.

I will conclude by saying that this might isolate Canada from the main partners with whom we agree on a multilateral approach to international trade. Therefore, I call upon the Prime Minister, the cabinet and the government to demonstrate good old common sense and refuse to go along with this plan, as the hon. member for Saint-Jean—whom I congratulate once more—asks in his motion.

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5 p.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Mr. Speaker, I have always admired the member for Joliette for his agile mind, an example of which he has just given us.

My colleagues will recall that I had the privilege, as a member of a great labour confederation in Quebec, the CSN, to rub shoulders with the member for Joliette. Besides, at that time, we also had a similar debate, maybe on another subject than the space shield.

I also know that the member is a quite well-known economist. I remember that, at that time, we pointed out that investments, in defence for example, had fewer spinoffs than other types of investment.

I believe that, at the time, the ratio was one dollar for seven dollars of economic spinoffs, on non-military investments, and almost no spinoffs for investments in national defence. I would like to hear what the member has to say about that.

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5 p.m.

Bloc

Pierre Paquette Bloc Joliette, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for Saint-Jean for his question, because I was unable to get to the last part of my speech.

As he mentioned, in this debate that is just beginning on the missile defence system, some will emphasize the economic spinoffs from the money spent on the system, especially for the aerospace industry, which is concentrated in the Montreal area, to a large extent.

We could be parochial and say that we should jump on board because the Montreal area will benefit a great deal. But if we do join the missile defence plan, the Americans will not guarantee any economic benefits unless we invest also. We will be asked to spend billions on this.

As the hon. member for Saint-Jean mentioned, these billions of dollars will have far fewer spinoffs and much less of a multiplying effect than if we spend them on social housing, our $5-a-day day care system in Quebec, public transit, implementation of the Kyoto protocol—since we have projects to harness renewable energies like the wind—and on education or health.

Thus, from a strictly economic perspective, it is better for Canadians and Quebeckers to invest in these types of economies, in these types of industries, services or products, than to invest in this plan.

I remind the House that even down the road, presuming that we say no to the Americans—I repeat that I hope we will do so—if we do not invest money in the missile defence plan, we will still get spinoffs. We must keep in mind that 40% of trade between Canada and the United States is within firms. This is called intrafirm trade.

For example, if an American firm that has a contract with the Pentagon concerning the missile defence plan has a subcontractor or owns a business in Canada, and if this business is more productive and better able to build part of the components required, this firm will not do without because the Canadian government and the people of Quebec and Canada have said no to the plan. Obviously, business interests will prevail.

I will conclude by saying that it would be very much to our advantage to say no to President Bush. We are not saying no to the American people, because I am convinced that many Americans are concerned and oppose this plan. But, at the same time, we have nothing to fear in terms of economic spinoffs. I think that we could choose our investments. In any case, if it is in the interests of American firms operating in Canada to use their subsidiaries in Canada and Quebec, I am convinced that they will do so.

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5 p.m.

Liberal

David Pratt Liberal Nepean—Carleton, ON

Mr. Speaker, it is a great pleasure for me to participate in this debate. I have listened with great interest to some of the previous speakers. I am not referring specifically to the previous speaker, but to listen to some of the comments and arguments one would think that somehow or other the United States has morphed into Canada's evil twin, that it has evil nefarious intentions throughout the world. This does not sound to me like the country that is right next to us and which is our best ally and trading partner. It does not sound to me like the country right next to us where we have so many business contacts, social contacts and family contacts.

It leaves me a little confused to say the least in terms of some of the motives that have been attributed to the United States through the course of this debate. We have heard a lot of what I would describe as cold war rhetoric, rhetoric that really fails to appreciate the current situation in terms of where we are at strategically today, post 9/11, where the world has evolved to since the end of the cold war.

We know that there is a threat. There is clearly in my view a threat out there and it is posed by two things principally. It is posed by cell based terrorism and the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and their delivery systems. I do not have to go into the various incidents that have occurred internationally over the last number of years, but I could enumerate some of them: the bombing of the USS Cole ; the embassy bombings in east Africa; the bombing in Bali; and of course the events of September 11.

What many people have failed to appreciate in terms of this changing environment was very well summed up in an op-ed piece in the New York Times a number of months back. It was written by a fellow named Thomas Friedman. He talked about the new strategic environment that we face as being the world of order and the world of disorder.

The world of order in his view, and I share this view, is constituted by North America, Europe, Russia and China, that is, countries that have a stake in terms of allowing their economies to grow, that are based generally on the rule of law, which are making projections into the future in terms of economic growth and the welfare of their people. These are the countries of order.

The countries of disorder on the other hand are countries that fall into three categories principally: rogue states, failed states, and what Friedman termed as messy states. Clearly Iraq, although it is not now, would have been in the rogue state category, along with North Korea and to a large extent Iran as well. He looked at the failed states as well, states like Liberia. Until a few years ago we could probably have put Sierra Leone in that category also, and perhaps states like Somalia. The messy states are where there is certainly a problem with proliferation of weapons, confrontation and terrorism and sometimes organized crime is involved in terrorism as well. He enumerated countries like Colombia, India and Pakistan, states that are to a certain extent largely or somewhat unpredictable in terms of where they might be going.

We know that in terms of weapons of mass destruction there has been a quantum change in the strategic environment since the end of the cold war. The end of the cold war, in terms of the destruction of the Soviet Union, threw open the floodgates in terms of the knowledge of weapons of mass destruction, chemical, biological and nuclear weapons.

We have certainly seen that in the case of what has been called the 10 plus 10 over 10 agreement that was discussed at the G-8 last year. It involves bringing more and better controls over the Soviet Union's former nuclear, biological and chemical arsenal as well as the delivery systems for those sorts of weapons.

We have seen literally billions of dollars invested by the United States and Canada and other countries of the western world to bring these weapons of mass destruction under control. We know that there are at least 30 to 35 countries that have all sorts of ballistic missile technology. We know there are at least 25 countries that either have sought or have acquired weapons of mass destruction in terms of nuclear, biological, chemical or radiological weapons.

This is a serious problem to say the least. It boils down to the knowledge that is out there in terms of weapons technology and how best we as the world of order can deal with some of this weapons technology and protect our citizens. For me, protecting our citizens is the bottom line. There is a threat out there and it has to be addressed.

Another point I wanted to raise in connection with this debate is the fact that this is a defensive system. In fact many elements of the system have been in place for a number of years now. The ballistic missile defence system essentially is composed of five elements.

The first is a ground based radar which has been around since the 1960s. The second is space based sensors which have been around since the 1970s in terms of the U.S. defence support program. We tie into that as well through Norad. We have the benefit of those systems through Norad in terms of the ground and space based sensors. Canada has been part of that thus far.

There is also what is called an X-band radar. The capability of this radar is such that it allows the United States when tracking a missile to determine what is a warhead and what is a decoy. That is the third element. It has been around for about the last eight years and has been tested significantly over that time. The tests have yielded quite good results.

The fourth component is what is referred to as the battle management command, control and communications which essentially lines up the interceptor with the incoming missile. It is a series of software and hardware that is essential in order to be able to intercept the missile. That is where most of the research and development is headed. That is where the dollars will be invested in the coming years.

The final element of the system is the ground and sea based interceptors, some of which are largely in use right now. As a matter of fact some of these systems are in use by the Canadian Forces themselves. When we look at the American system in terms of the Aegis class destroyers which fire a standard missile, an SM-3 missile, the Canadian Forces in our Iroquois class destroyers have the SM-2 missile.

With respect to our own missile defences, we purchased in the 1980s what is referred to as the ADATS system, the air defence and anti-tank system, which has the capability to intercept missiles in their final phase before hitting earth. In terms of the ground based system, the Minuteman II missiles are being used, which have been around for many years.

A lot of this technology is not new. A lot of it has been around for a long time. What we are talking about is simply upgrading the current systems that are in place and giving them the additional capability to do the job in terms of intercepting missiles.

Madam Speaker, I am sharing my time with the member for Anjou--Rivière-des-Prairies. I look forward to hearing his comments.

I have just a couple of minutes left and I have not begun to address some of the other issues I would like to address. I hope there will be some questions, but I will conclude simply by saying that Canada has to be involved in this initiative. It is part of our defence policy in my view and it is essential for the protection of Canadian sovereignty.

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5:10 p.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Madam Speaker, I would like to congratulate my colleague on his knowledge of this issue. Everyone knows that he is the chair of the Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs. He has just demonstrated, very convincingly, a great understanding of the subject. In fact, there are many kinds of missiles. He will agree with me that the space shield would intercept a specific type of missile known as the intercontinental missile.

I do not think that Pakistan or India have intercontinental missiles. They have short-range missiles. This limits the spectre of an attack against North America. This narrows the field quite a bit. Even though 25 countries have weapons of mass destruction, they need to have delivery systems to send them across the world. This therefore eliminates many of the countries in question.

I think that China, Russia and North Korea would be able to launch an intercontinental missile to North America. For now, I am excluding the possibility that China and Russia would do so, because the concept of mutually assured destruction remains a factor. If they do launch a missile, that will probably be the end of it for them: they will be wiped off the map.

Where things may get trickier is with North Korea. However, they too are subject to the same policy. Why would North Korea launch one or two missiles that could reach the United States when they are sure to be wiped off the map in the minutes that followed?

I would like our colleague to make this distinction and to acknowledge that not everyone has the capabilities to launch missiles that could reach North America right now. Considering the costs involved in the missile defence system, we feel it would not be worth it.

There are other types of approaches that were mentioned this afternoon. There is multilateralism and international fora. That is where this should be solved, rather than trying to establish the invincibility of one country, the United States.

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5:15 p.m.

Liberal

David Pratt Liberal Nepean—Carleton, ON

Madam Speaker, the point of some of my comments was certainly to enumerate the fact that a lot of the system in terms of missile defence is in place.

The important thing for the hon. member to keep in mind is that at the present time it is very clear that it is unlikely that any state in the world that could be categorized as a rogue state for instance, would have the capability to hit continental North America with a missile. That is a given.

What is not in question is that the missile technology which exists right now and what is being proposed in terms of national missile defence is a layered system. It attempts in some cases to get the missile at the launch or close to the boost phase when the missile is rising in the air in what is called the mid-core space when it actually, in the case of an intercontinental ballistic missile, is travelling in space, and in the terminal phase.

I would agree with the hon. member that at this point there is no state that has that capability. However, there are many states which are working toward that capability and in the next 10 to 15 years will clearly have that capability.

It is not just the states that possess these weapons of mass destruction, because we have seen in terms of proliferation, countries like North Korea selling missile technology to other states. Perhaps the hon. member would agree with me on this point, that in the case of short range or shorter range missiles that are launched from cargo ships, at this point they probably present a more dangerous threat to continental North America.

What the Americans are trying to do is not something in which just the Americans are interested; it is something that NATO has bought into through its strategic concept and it is something that was declared in the Prague summit last November as being important, not just theatre missile defence, but expanding that to protect populations. The British are certainly on side as are many others. The Danes are on side. The U.S. is working right now with Asian powers in terms of Japan and South Korea to protect those countries as well.

What we are seeing is an attempt by the United States to protect its own populations certainly. However, it is one which in terms of the investment is able to protect the continental United States and the friends and allies of the U.S. over the course of the next 10 to 15 years as some of this missile technology evolves.

We saw it with Iraq. I will conclude with this comment. We know that in a state like Iraq, it evolved from liquid propellants to solid fuel propellants The proliferation of that sort of missile technology does present a serious threat.

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5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Yvon Charbonneau Liberal Anjou—Rivière-Des-Prairies, QC

Madam Speaker, first, I want to commend the Bloc Quebecois for having raised in the House the issue of the American proposal asking Canada to take part in the U.S. missile defence plan.

I also congratulate them on following up on the Prime Minister's suggestion that this be a public debate, because it could well have been limited to a few parties within Parliament. After this opposition day, many Canadians will be paying closer attention to these very serious questions.

I also wish to recognize the very careful work of the hon. member for Yukon, who chaired the committee of our national caucus on these questions, whose report was tabled in the House earlier. This is a very balanced report, which reflects the differing and totally legitimate points of view we hear when we embark on this kind of a debate.

In our parliamentary system, it is incumbent on the government to make decisions in these matters. But the government bases its decisions on debates within the Canadian public, in Parliament and within its own ranks; it has done so and is doing so now.

Personally, I am totally comfortable with the positions taken by the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, as set out previously by our party, against the militarization of space. In other debates, we have stressed the importance of mobilizing against terrorism. We also strongly support mobilization against the doctrine of pre-emptive war inspired by unilateralism, which the government of our neighbours to the south is promoting.

What we want to know is this: how useful will the missile defence system contemplated be against hostile countries, or rogue states as they are called, terrorism in all its forms and weapons of mass destruction? Can one seriously claim that this system can be used and have some degree of effectiveness against these threats? Some paint the world in terms of good states and evil states. Could missile defence be of any use in this context?

I think that there is a great deal of confusion between defence and security. We say that we want to achieve security through increasingly sophisticated technological defence systems. In my opinion, there is a certain imbalance in the debate that has to be emphasized at this point.

We are saying, “Will this work? Will there be so many missiles of such and such a category? Since when have they been around? Approximately how much will that cost? What are the advantages and the disadvantages?” We are fixated on technical considerations when the issue is much more important than that. It is a matter of security. And it is a matter of security not only for the United States and the northern part of the North American continent that includes Canada and United States, but for humanity.

In my opinion, it is not through the building up and the escalation of technologies, however sophisticated they may be, that we will achieve greater security in Canada, in North America or on planet earth. It is not through such escalation that we can reduce the gap between good states and evil states. I do not think that building a fortress here in North America will solve these sorts of issues, which are vital to the long-term security of humanity.

We are in a situation similar to the one in which those people living behind barricades and in fortresses find themselves. Sometimes, when we visit certain countries, we realize that rich people have beautiful residences that cannot be seen from the street because they are hidden behind high walls. Are these people really safe behind those high walls? They claim they are. And when things get bad, they simply add a few more rows of blocks and make the wall higher.

Then they install barbed wire, control towers and radar to watch over everything. But when they leave their fortress, are they safe? They have to be escorted by armed guards to get to an airport to travel. They have to be escorted for their own safety to get to their offices downtown. Are they safe? They can defend themselves as long as they are inside their fortress. Once they leave, real life is waiting for them.

The same thing is true on an international level. It is possible to build a system where you are almost invulnerable as long as you stay inside your own walls. As soon as you leave, real life is waiting for you. Is it really any good to have a fortress in which we see ourselves as invulnerable? If, in the future, we run out of water, if the land around becomes a desert, if disease devastates the entire country and other continents, where is the security in that?

Some people, some countries and some elite groups can believe they are safe, but this does not move the planet forward. In my opinion, we are all in the same boat. As earthlings, we are on a space ship. The survival of one means the survival of all. We will all live or we will all die.

All the escalating and ruinously expensive technologies will not help us one bit in this regard. Instead, it will take international cooperation, the development of multilateral tools, rebuilding the UN and the Security Council, a better balance between the haves and the have nots and between the continents and the superpowers. The creation of new tools will put us on the road to achieving this security, which is much more important and encompassing than the stockpile of defence weapons that only temporarily protect our own fortress.

There are battles ahead. The battle for a clean environment and for sustainable development around the world, for the eradication of poverty afflicting pockets on each continent, for access to water, food, shelter, physical security, and education. These measures are the ones that ensure security in the middle and long term.

Canada should send this message to the U.S., international public opinion and UN forums. It should send the message that this is our first choice. Those are the terms of this debate, in my opinion.

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5:25 p.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Mr. Speaker, earlier, I wanted to praise my colleague from Joliette for his active participation in central labour bodies. I see that we also have friends who are very articulate and who come from other central labour bodies. It just goes to show that the labour movement is favourable to this type of debate.

I wanted to commend my colleague for the ideas that he just presented to us. I find the analogy between the fortress and the missile defence system very relevant. I think that he is also right when he says that what we need on this planet is long-lasting and pacifist solutions, instead of trying to build the biggest shield possible to protect ourselves against a big missile.

This morning, I began my speech with an analogy with Cro-Magnon man. In the movie 2001: A Space Odyssey , we see a Cro-Magnon man clubbing another man. Those who witnessed the incident thought that maybe people should don a helmet and use a shield. This is in fact the same discussion.

I want the member to elaborate on the societal choices that we have. Would it not be more relevant to invest in multilateralism, in notions of solidarity and mutual cooperation, instead of investing in sophisticated defensive and offensive systems?

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5:30 p.m.

Liberal

Yvon Charbonneau Liberal Anjou—Rivière-Des-Prairies, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for Saint-Jean for seeing the central element of my speech. I am pleased to see that this speech is shared by many other people.

I believe we must invest in plans for cooperation, which might touch on education, health, development and also arms. I am talking about plans that should go just so far, and not far-fetched plans where anyone can do anything to get around them. There must be plans that apply to all states who have these weapons of mass destruction—nuclear, biological or other kinds. They must apply to both the big countries and the small countries, in all regions of the world. I think that we can develop such plans and that they are the road to security.

I believe that Canadian sovereignty is important. We are ready to make adjustments on matters of sovereignty withother countries, in order to produce valid international tools.

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5:30 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

It being 5:30 p.m., it is my duty to inform the House that proceedings on the motion have expired.

The House will now proceed to the consideration of private members' business as listed on today's Order Paper.

Chief Actuary ActPrivate Members' Business

May 15th, 2003 / 5:30 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Diane Ablonczy Canadian Alliance Calgary Nose Hill, AB

moved that Bill C-421, An Act respecting the establishment of the Office of the Chief Actuary of Canada and to amend other Acts in consequence thereof, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to introduce to the House this private member's bill called the chief actuary act.

I would like to tell the House what I will cover today. First, I will go over the purpose of the bill. Second, I will talk about what an actuary is because I did not really know what an actuary was before I became involved in this and maybe others have the same question. Third, what does the chief actuary of Canada do? Fourth, why do we need an independent chief actuary? The fifth item I will address is how an independent chief actuary will benefit Canadians. I have 15 minutes to cover those five points and I am sure you will hold me to my time, Madam Speaker, so I will get on with it.

The purpose of the bill is quite simple. It is set out in clause 3 of the bill, which reads as follows:

The purpose of this Act is to provide for an independent Chief Actuary of Canada who will report directly to the House of Commons on the activities of his or her office.

The purpose is to have an independent chief actuary. What is an actuary? An actuary is a professional who evaluates the financial implications of uncertain future events. An actuary is part scientist and part crystal ball gazer, I guess. A chief actuary's principal work is the design, the pricing and the financing of insurance plans and pension plans.

The qualifications of an actuary are: an innate analytical ability; an expertise in demographics; a focus on insurance systems and their actuarial soundness; and a unique training in quantifying and projecting the costs of multiple complex factors and contingent events. An actuary must have a proven professional objectivity in making quantitative assessments. An actuary is a professional business person skilled in the application of mathematics to financial problems.

The principal role of an actuary is the application of probability analysis, risk theory and statistics to the financial environment. Actuaries are a cornerstone of the risk management mechanisms of insurance companies and pension plans in Canada. So all who would like to be an actuary should please raise their hands; it sounds like there is a great deal of ability and expertise that would be required of an actuary.

The third question I would like to answer is, what does a chief actuary of Canada do? I will read from the web page of the chief actuary of Canada as to the mandate of the chief actuary:

The Office of the Chief Actuary (OAC) estimates long-term expenditures and revenues and current liabilities of the Canada Pension Plan and of federal public sector workplace pension and insurance plans. It also estimates long-term future expenditures for Old Age Security programs. It prepares actuarial reports on the financial status of these programs as required by legislation, including reports on proposed changes to the Canada Pension Plan introduced in Parliament and submits them to the responsible Ministers. The Office of the Chief Actuary also provides actuarial information to responsible government departments to assist these departments in the design, funding and administration of these programs.

Also, the chief actuary of Canada has the responsibility to give actuarial information concerning the performance of the public service pension fund and the RCMP and Canadian Forces pension funds. Public servants and those who have participated in defending our country, as well as members of Parliament and judges, all of us, have an important interest in ensuring good oversight of these social programs.

The fourth question that I want to answer is why we need an independent chief actuary. We have talked about the purpose of the bill, which is to install an independent chief actuary. We have talked about what an actuary is and what an actuary does. We have talked about what the chief actuary of Canada does and now we need to talk about why we need to make that individual independent.

The bottom line is there is a need for Canadians to be absolutely sure that the true state of their public pensions is not being hidden because the pension watchdog is not independent. I want to make four quick points on this issue.

First, the lack of independence of the current office of the chief actuary has resulted in events which have led to questions about the level of confidence Canadians can place on the oversight of their pensions. I speak specifically about the fact that the former chief actuary of the Canada pension plan and of other public pension plans and other important social plans was fired by the finance department. This individual had been in office for seven years. This individual was just about to bring out a report on the state of the Canada pension plan. This individual was fired after seven years in office and came forward and publicly said that he was fired because he would not validate the figures that were being put forward by the finance department about Canada pension plan projections.

I do not know what the right and wrong of this is, but the fact is that this individual, who had held the post for many years and who was very highly qualified and respected, took the matter to court, sued for wrongful dismissal and won a settlement of over $300,000. This raises legitimate questions as to whether the fact that he insisted on a measure of independence, which the finance department was not prepared to give him, was a factor in this whole very unsettling series of events.

This is one example of the kind of questions that can arise when an important post like the chief actuary is not independent.

The second point I would like to make is with respect to a controversy that arose a few years ago with respect to the public service pension plan. What occurred was there was a controversy over the government's management of the public service pensions during the period 1997 to 1999. The government introduced a bill and there was a real uproar about this. The Auditor General's office said this about the management of the public service pension plans at that time. It stated:

Indeed, the government employees--public service, armed forces and RCMP--pension fund is a 'phantom fund' in that it exists as a set of bookkeeping entries rather than in the form of an investment portfolio of various stocks, bonds and other financial assets.

The bill the government introduced affected all these pension plans, including the members of Parliament retirement allowances. It basically took money out of those plans to help pay down the deficit. Our Senate Committee on Banking, Trade and Commerce reported in September, 1999 the following opinions. It stated:

The committee re-iterates our view that a joint pension management board and risk-sharing agreement is the preferred option for the future. Nevertheless we also note the point made in our June 1999 report that, if no agreement is reached, some Committee members feel that additional safeguards should be introduced to protect the interests of both taxpayers and plan members, including appointing the Auditor General as the primary auditor of the funds, ensuring that a majority of the members of the proposed Pension Investment Board have significant pension fund expertise, requiring the proposed Board to liaise with the actuary so as to understand the nature and timing of plan liabilities, and increasing the amount of information that may be requested of the proposed Board and the anticipated joint pension management board by plan members.

The Senate at that time saw an expanded actuarial oversight role for public service pensions, including your pension and my pension, Madam Speaker.

The third point I would like to make, under the need for an independent chief actuary, is the growing calls for an independent oversight of critical social programs on which Canadians depend. For example, the Canadian Institute of Actuaries recently called for an independent medicare actuary for Canada. It believes we need to use the actuarial discipline to help ensure a sustainable health care system. It states that an independent medical actuary is needed to provide professional, unbiased, non-political advice to policy makers and legislators at provincial and federal levels on design, funding, impact of possible changes, et cetera.

Therefore this is a time when professional expert people in our country are calling for more independent actuarial input into the way our social programs are managed and designed.

The fourth point I want to make is that this call for an independent chief actuary is very consistent with the direction government is taking. Government is recognizing in a variety of ways that it needs to have measures to respond to a growing demand for greater openness and accountability in the operations of government. The new political financing bill is an example of this and there are other examples.

Therefore this is a time when the growth in demand by the public for more independent oversight is starting to generate a response from government and from members of the House. I believe this bill, a simple measure, would be another step in the direction of greater openness and accountability.

The next question is how to go about installing an independent chief actuary. It is not very difficult. The independent chief actuary would be chosen by a resolution of the Senate and the House of Commons. That individual's office, which is already operating, would simply report not to the finance department but directly to the House of Commons. That would allow much greater independence and a much greater level of confidence in the information and the oversight that is being exerted on these very important plans.

Therefore I would like to end by saying there is a real benefit to Canadians, in the House passing this very simple measure of making the chief actuary of Canada independent of government and reporting directly to the people's representatives in the House of Commons. It would generate much greater confidence in important programs. It would allow a better set of checks and balances on these operations of government and increase the confidence in how the checks and balances operate.

Of course the real winner would be our democracy because Canadians who are concerned, who perhaps feel alienated, or uneasy or uncomfortable with just how open and transparent our system is would be further reassured by making this very important critical post entirely independent, reporting directly to us in the House of Commons.

I hope members of Parliament will support this very simple measure and I look forward to the debate on the bill.

Chief Actuary ActPrivate Members' Business

5:45 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Myron Thompson Canadian Alliance Wild Rose, AB

Madam Speaker, I have a quick question for the hon. member. I think this is a great idea.

I pretty well understand what actuaries are all about, having worked in the insurance business for awhile. They are real number crunchers and they seem to be very accurate in their work, especially if they are not influenced by outside bodies. Therefore I certainly agree with the idea of an independent chief actuary.

The member spoke a great deal about the pensions plans, public and private. I understand that because that is what they work for in the insurance business, in retirement planning for most Canadians. That is their job.

Does it also apply to such things that would be of assistance to a member of the cabinet when he rises to announce a program and says that it will cost $2 million but instead it ends up costing $1 billion? Could the minister have used this kind of advice before he introduced such a ridiculous setup?

Chief Actuary ActPrivate Members' Business

5:45 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Diane Ablonczy Canadian Alliance Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Madam Speaker, I hear the sound of an axe being ground. The fact of the matter is that under the terms of this bill, the act would allow the independent chief actuary to provide advice, opinion, analysis or recommendation, not only to a minister of the crown but also to provincial governments participating in any prescribed social insurance program or public pension plans established by Parliament, as well as to any member of the Senate or the House of Commons.

Whether the program the member is referring to, although he did not name the program I think I can guess which one it is, falls into the definition of a prescribed social insurance program or public pension plan established by Parliament, I very much doubt. Perhaps members would be able to persuade an independent chief actuary to take bit of time to give some kind of input, advice or recommendation with respect to other programs even though they are not explicitly mentioned in this bill.

I think we could all benefit by looking ahead and having experts help us to understand not just what is happening today but what could happen, given a whole set factors on any number of important programs.

Chief Actuary ActPrivate Members' Business

5:45 p.m.

Bras D'Or—Cape Breton Nova Scotia

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister

Madam Speaker, I rise today to oppose consideration by the House of the proposed legislation put forward by the hon. member for Calgary—Nose Hill respecting the establishment of the office of the chief actuary of Canada and to amend other acts in consequence thereof.

It is essential that confidence in Canada's public pension system remains high, which, without question, it is. This is for good reason.

Canada has been recognized internationally as a model in providing adequate retirement income for seniors while maintaining the affordability and sustainability of the retirement income system in the face of population aging and economic change. The strength of our public pension system was an important factor in this conclusion.

Sound actuarial reporting is key to ensuring that the high confidence Canadians have in our public pension system continues on an ongoing basis.

Let me take a few moments to review the important role the existing chief actuary fulfills.

The current office of the chief actuary estimates long term expenditures and revenues and current liabilities of the Canada pension plan and of federal public sector workplace pension and insurance plans. The chief actuary is also responsible for estimating long term future expenditures for old age security programs, an issue which is of growing importance to all Canadians.

The office of the chief actuary prepares actuarial reports on the financial status of these programs as required by legislation, including reports on proposed changes to the Canadian pension plan introduced to Parliament. The chief actuary submits these reports to the responsible ministers, who are the Minister of Finance, the Minister of Human Resources Development and the President of the Treasury Board.

The office also provides actuarial information to responsible government departments to assist these departments in the design, funding and administration of these programs.

In addition, the office provides actuarial information on the Canada pension plan to provincial governments which are the plan's co-stewards. Major changes to the Canada pension plan benefits and contribution rates can come into effect only with the accord of two-thirds of the provinces with two-thirds of the population.

Since 2001 the office of the chief actuary has also been responsible for undertaking the actuarial review of the Canada student loans program.

The hon. member for Calgary—Nose Hill is proposing, as I understand it, to have legislation that would see the chief actuary be appointed by the governor in council after approval by resolution of the House and Senate. This chief actuary would report directly to Parliament and request resources for his or her office from Parliament.

The proposed legislation would also require the new chief actuary to provide advice, opinion, analysis or recommendations on any prescribed social insurance program or public pension plan established by an act of Parliament free of charge to any member of the Senate or House of Commons, the government of a province that participates in the program or plan, as well as any responsible minister of the crown.

As I mentioned earlier, public confidence in the public pension system is essential, and Canadians already have a public pension system in which they can have a lot of confidence.

My hon. colleagues may not be aware that the federal and provincial governments, as co-stewards of the Canada pension plan, took meaningful steps in 1997 and 1999 to strengthen the transparency and accountability of actuarial reporting on the CPP. In 1997, federal and provincial governments agreed that the frequency of actuarial reporting on the CPP should be increased from every five years to every three years to strengthen public accountability.

The CPP legislation was also changed to require federal and provincial ministers to review planned finances every three years instead of every five years. These findings are reported to Canadians. In doing so, the stewardship and accountability of the plan have been further strengthened.

In 1999, federal and provincial finance ministers took additional steps to strengthen the transparency and accountability of actuarial reporting on the CPP. They endorsed regular peer reviews of such reports and consultations by the chief actuary with experts on the assumptions to be used in the reports. Ministers also developed a policy for supplying actuarial information and services on the CPP to individuals and organizations outside of the executive arm of government on a fee for service basis. This standardized and brought transparency to existing practices.

It is my understanding that the most recent independent review of the statutory actuarial report on the CPP confirmed that the work of the chief actuary meets professional standards of actuarial practice and is of sound quality.

The independent review also confirmed that the office of the chief actuary has adequate resources and access to data and other information required to fulfill its mandate.

To ensure the quality of future actuarial reports, the chief actuary continues to consult with experts in the fields of long term demographic and economic projection in the preparation of actuarial reports.

Perhaps the hon. members of the House are not aware of the high professional esteem in which the current office of the chief actuary is held. This is evidenced by the decision to have Canada's chief actuary undertake the first independent peer review of the actuarial report of the government actuary on the Great Britain national insurance fund.

I have another point. At the present time the office of the chief actuary is housed within the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions, which is the primary regulator of federally chartered financial institutions and federally administered pension plans. This allows the two offices to share certain administrative costs. It allows for greater coherence between the work of the superintendent and the chief actuary.

To summarize, confidence in Canada's pension system is high because the system works. It works because of the commitment of the federal and provincial ministers, supported by officials such as the existing chief actuary, to ensure that it is the very best that it can be.