House of Commons Hansard #105 of the 37th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was taiwan.

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4:45 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Stockwell Day Canadian Alliance Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

Madam Speaker, about a year ago I had the honour of being appointed to the role of senior critic on foreign affairs and to the foreign affairs committee. I had the double honour of being elected to be vice-chair by all members of the committee, and I appreciate that honour. It was at that time that I indicated that issues related to Taiwan would be a priority for me and for the Canadian Alliance. It has been the case for the last year and will continue to be.

I want to thank some people now related to this specific issue. The member for Burnaby—Douglas has been tireless in his efforts in terms of trying to bring some attention to this issue related to observer status for Taiwan at the World Health Organization. As a matter of fact, he had a motion before the foreign affairs committee for some period of time and eventually brought that forward. The motion was defeated by the Liberal members on the committee but the member for Burnaby—Douglas was, as I said, tireless in his efforts, as were other members of that committee. I also want to thank the Bloc Quebecois members of the committee.

It is true that, quite frequently, I do not agree with the Bloc Quebecois' policies but the Bloc has always supported Taiwan on this.

I appreciate that. I appreciate the way in which those members brought out their concerns as did other members of the committee.

I also want to thank the few Liberal MPs on the foreign affairs committee who voted for the motion when I had the opportunity to bring it forward sometime ago in the foreign affairs committee. At that time the motion passed because of the agreement and cooperation of all of the opposition parties but also notably because of the participation of a few Liberal MPs. I appreciate their support in passing that motion.

I will admit we were dismayed when I brought forward a motion in the House of Commons simply to concur in the report which was asking to support Taiwan's request for observer status at the WHO. That particular day not long ago in the House there was not one Liberal MP who voted to concur in that report. That was a cause for dismay for many of us. We do hope sincerely and what I have heard from talking with certain Liberal MPs, and I do not profess to have an insider knowledge, is there seems to be an indication that Liberal MPs will be voting with us on this motion tomorrow. I hope there will be enough of them that it will carry.

I appeal to every Liberal MP in the House of Commons to put conscience before convenience and support Taiwan in its hour of need. I ask in all sincerity that they would do that.

As we heard from the Liberal member who spoke before me, he could not give a clear answer whether his speech was supportive or not of the motion, but I am going to take him at his word when he said that debate is all about listening and making a decision. I am going to ask him to continue to listen and to ask himself in all sincerity in his heart if this is not worthy of support.

I have in my possession a number of statements of support from other jurisdictions. The United States policy guideline on the World Health Organization issued March 18 is very recent and very clear: “We support the goal of Taiwan's participation in the work of the World Health Organization including observer status”. That in very simple language is a statement of support from the United States.

I also have the statement from the External Relations Commissioner of the European Commission in the European parliament. This is as far back as September 4, 2002. This issue keeps coming up. He made an interesting important distinction. He said that “while the EU are cognizant of the one China policy and that precludes formal relations with Taiwan”; he made that distinction. He also made it very clear that the EU is able to support “Taiwanese participation in internal organizations and processes”. The EU supports Taiwan's involvement with those other organizations and those processes and he made a very clear distinction that he does not feel this intrudes in any way on acknowledging the one China policy.

I also have a statement from the Japanese health minister who voiced support for Taiwan's request for observer status. It was issued on May 1. It indicates there is strong support for Taiwan's bid to join the World Health Organization as an observer. I want to make it clear that it is not just the health minister from Japan in isolation. Yasuo Fukuda, the spokesman for the Japanese government, also expressed as far back as May 2002 Japan's support for Taiwan's participation in the World Health Organization as an observer.

These are notable jurisdictions around the world that are supporting Taiwan in this. I suggest it would be somewhat of an embarrassment if Canada was not to join our partners. It is not a military intervention we are talking about. It is support for a jurisdiction which is asking for something as simple as observer status.

It is also important to note the speech from Taiwan's president, Chen Shui-bian, which was given on May 9, 2003. He made some interesting observations. He talked about the fact that when SARS first appeared in Taiwan in March, they moved very quickly and they achieved a record of zero mortality, zero community transmission and zero transmission abroad.

Then he acknowledged in his remarks just this month that another outbreak occurred in late April. Again he requested the ability to have observer status at the WHO to deal with that. His remarks are really important. He said “At no time has my administration suppressed information about the disease”.

One of the jurisdictions opposing Taiwan's request is mainland China, which in fact did suppress information about the disease. That was not Taiwan's position. It was very open about it.

He went on to say “Our press reported freely”, because of course Taiwan has freedom of the press, freedom of expression. He went on to say that his officials know that they are accountable to the people both morally and at the ballot box. In Taiwan all the people vote. He acknowledged that accountability.

He went on to talk about the fact that Taiwan is a nation of 23 million people and is a major trading partner with many countries. He recognized Taiwan's responsibility as it trades and has dealings with many other countries and that Taiwan should not be left to ad hoc arrangements when it comes to serious crises like this one. He acknowledged that two experts from the WHO went to Taiwan last week but because Taiwan does not have official observer status, the experts went to practitioners but they did not consult with the wide range of officials that they would have and as they did in other jurisdictions.

He talked about the fact that Taiwan's epidemiologists are still unable to gain prompt access to information and to get samples of the virus that could help the scientists learn and treat the disease and the patients.

Those comments from Taiwan's president are helpful and instructive in this particular debate.

We need to consider a number of factors when we look at this.

Taiwan is a major transport hub, linking northeast and southeast Asia. In 2002 Taiwan registered over 10 million inbound and outbound travellers.

By the end of 2002, over 300,000 migrant workers from Thailand, Indonesia, the Philippines, Malaysia and Vietnam were living and working in Taiwan. These workers were coming to take part in the freedom of enterprise that exists in Taiwan and also the freedom of speech and freedom of democracy. The people of Taiwan recognize their responsibility to these people.

Over 150,000 Taiwanese come to Canada annually. Members may be aware that there are over 15,000 Taiwanese students who attend Canadian schools.

Taiwan has experiences, resources and achievements that it can share with the world, especially in times of crises and especially in times of medical crises. The Economist Intelligence Unit of the United Kingdom rated the medical practice of all countries in a special report some time ago. It rated Taiwan as being second among all the developed and newly industrialized countries, next only to Sweden, in terms of the rating of the medical practices.

When it comes to the generosity of spirit of the Taiwanese people, Taiwan has donated to the international community over $120 million U.S., not Canadian dollarettes, but U.S. dollars. Taiwan has donated medical and humanitarian relief to some 78 different countries on five continents. The Taiwanese have done this from 1995 to 2002, showing their own generosity of spirit to other countries in need.

Taiwan and the people of Taiwan are the ones who possess the information and the data, talking about what is affecting them relating to this SARS crisis. They are the ones who hold this information. They are the ones who are being effective. Excluding Taiwan creates a loophole in the health network which is absolutely unnecessary and in fact is unconscionable.

I know a case is made where people say to let mainland China care for the health needs of Taiwan, but let us just look at the facts and not the emotional expressions that are not based on fact. In fact, China has never exercised any authority over Taiwan's health care system, nor has China contributed anything from its national budget to Taiwan in the area of its health needs. In fact sorrowfully, we can report just the opposite.

In 1998 China prevented WHO experts from helping Taiwan when it needed to combat a deadly outbreak of enterovirus. China actually obstructed WHO experts from helping Taiwan. People died in Taiwan as a result of that virus.

As we all know, the following year a massive earthquake struck central Taiwan. It was devastating. Over 2,400 people were killed and over 10,000 were injured. Again, China got in the way of the shipment of emergency medical equipment and rescue assistance that had been offered by the Red Cross and Russia. The Russian federation offered assistance. China said no, that it could only happen if it went through China. It had to go through a whole diplomatic and time wasting process through China.

In Canada in a time of need such as the ice storm in Quebec, people did not hesitate or run something through a democratic process. Help just went forward. When there is an issue in other provinces, including Quebec, the people are there. It is not run through some kind of a diplomatic process because people are worried about getting their diplomatic noses out of joint because of how it is going to be interpreted. Most citizens in most countries, including citizens in Taiwan, know what it is to want to reach out and help people just for the purpose of helping them.

Taiwan has put aside the controversial political issue of membership, as has the EU in its declaration which I read a few moments ago. A one China policy is not the issue here. There is not a pursuit of that. This is strictly related to observer status at a health entity called the World Health Organization.

We can look at some of the other jurisdictions that have observer status at the WHO. The Cook Islands is 234 square kilometres. That is not a very big tract of land. It is not a separate nation. It has observer status. Niue at 264 square kilometres is not a very big tract of land. It has observer status. Some people have argued that we have to wait until a country has full nation status. Those jurisdictions do not have full nation status. Neither did occupied Japan before it had full nation status after the first world war, yet it was a full member of the WHO, not just an observer. It was the same with occupied Germany before it had nation status. The Vatican has observer status at the WHO.

In 1947 Switzerland, which refused to even be a member of the United Nations, had full status at the WHO. Of course the international Red Cross has status as an observer. The international Red Crescent Society quite rightly has status as an observer. The Order of Malta has status as an observer at the World Health Organization. The Palestinian Authority, not a recognized nation--hopefully some day there will be a state there but that is an issue for another day--has observer status at the World Health Organization.

However Canada, at least to date, refuses to back Taiwan's request. Taiwan has a population larger than 148 of the countries in the United Nations and Canada says no. It is time to stop this health apartheid which treats Taiwan differently than other jurisdictions in terms of a simple request for observer status at the World Health Organization.

Contrary to what we hear from members on the other side, Taiwan has been deprived of direct assistance from the World Health Organization because of this obstruction. The World Health Organization, when the SARS outbreak happened in Taiwan, refused to send its health experts directly there. Instead it transferred those Taiwan cases to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta, Georgia. That was nice and the people in Atlanta, Georgia were willing to help, but why the circuitous route in a time of need, in a time of emergency?

I have already talked about the fact that at a video conference that was held by the WHO, in which over 30 invited experts were discussing the SARS situation, Taiwanese experts could not participate in the conference to discuss their experience. They had to wait to get the information from the Internet. We heard a member say that it was just only 20 hours later. Every minute counts with SARS, as we painfully know with the Toronto situation.

Back in 1998 there was an the enterovirus outbreak in Taiwan. The WHO was in possession of certain high quality, single strain antibodies that would have met Taiwan's needs, however, it was not able to intervene because Taiwan did not have the nature of this status. Over 80 citizens of Taiwan died. Most of them were children. This is unnecessary and dangerous.

This motion may pass tomorrow for the following reasons. First, more Liberal members have had more information available to them, although we have made the information available to them for a year, but now with the SARS crisis upon us it is more acute. Also, the time for Taiwan to have participated in this year's World Health Organization conference has passed. The opportunity has been missed. A difference could have been made if Canada had been there advocating for Taiwan to have observer status.

The Liberals may feel the heat of the moment has passed and they can quietly grant it status even though the time for the conference has passed. However, I am choosing to believe that Liberal MPs will support us this time because it is the right thing to do and they will not acknowledge those who are in a misleading way, maybe not intentionally, giving information about how this may effect the relationship with mainland China.

We do not want it to be said of our government in Canada that we tend to give less support for democratic jurisdictions than to non-democratic jurisdictions. Taiwan has an exciting, proud and recent history in the practice of the grand human experience called democracy. We often quote heroes of democracy from the 16th century in Great Britain or from the United States, the colonies or even the Soviet Union, but we often miss the great untold stories of those heroes who stood and paid a price. They stood for individual freedom and human rights in Taiwan and it is only in the last decade that it has achieved democracy and become one of the world's most exciting new democracies.

It is time now, in a day when in other parts of the world people linger in the shadows out of fear, who want to step forward to promote democracy in their own lands, but they look to see how other democracies will be supported. Will they be supported when they are challenged by non-democratic states? Now is the time to send a message that Canada supports issues like this because it is the right thing to do. I appeal to our Liberal colleagues to support us in this vote tomorrow.

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5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the hon. member's comments. I am a little concerned that there was too much in his speech that dealt with diplomacy issues. The member will know that the issues surrounding a one China policy and the resolution of a complex matter, which I think came about since 1971, is detracting from the argument of the health related issues.

I am hopeful that the member will put a little refocus back to the driving force behind the resolution proposed to the House regarding the granting of observer status for Taiwan to the assembly of the World Health Organization for the purpose of ensuring better global health and therefore better health for Canada.

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5:10 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Stockwell Day Canadian Alliance Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

Mr. Speaker, I was careful to set aside the diplomatic argument and the diplomatic concern at the outset of my remarks.

As a matter of fact, I urged members to see this as an issue without borders. There is a credible and noteworthy organization called Doctors Without Borders which does not become hung up on the diplomatic niceties that might get certain politicians as ourselves hung up or our noses bent in a particular direction. It simply identifies a need. Is there a health need? Is there a need there that we can reach out and make better? Then it goes and meets that need. Doctors Without Borders is an organization which should be a shining example to us as elected people to set aside some of the diplomatic difficulties and complications, and just reach out when there is an area of need.

I would close my response to the member's question with this question: how is it that the European parliament was able to identify the one China policy, though it precludes formal relations with Taiwan, and yet stated that it supported Taiwanese participation in international organizations and processes?

We are able to say that there is a whole other separate issue. The one China policy is a very important issue. How is it that the entire European parliament can set that aside and support Taiwan and the federal Liberals cannot?

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5:10 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Gurmant Grewal Canadian Alliance Surrey Central, BC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to compliment the senior foreign affairs critic of the official opposition for his comments. I am very proud to be on the team as the foreign affairs critic for Asia-Pacific.

It is a very important motion. In the last couple of weeks we have had a devastating experience with SARS, as well as with mad cow disease. Diseases do not respect the geopolitical borders of different nations. With globalization we have more opportunities and we have more challenges as well.

Taiwan was a co-founder of the WHO in 1948. After China joined in 1972, Taiwan had to withdraw. Today Taiwan is seeking only observer status and not even full status in the WHO.

Taiwan has a population of 23 million. It is larger than 75% of the countries that belong to the WHO. Other bodies such as Palestine, the Holy See, the International Red Cross and the Order of Malta are members of the WHO. Does the member believe that if smaller non-sovereign bodies can be members of the WHO, and he mentioned the Cook Islands with a small population--

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5:10 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

The hon. member for Okanagan—Coquihalla.

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5:10 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Stockwell Day Canadian Alliance Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

Mr. Speaker, the member for Surrey Central is making some keen points and bringing forward examples, some of which I have cited, that show observer status at the World Health Organization has been accorded to a variety of jurisdictions and organizations that are not nations.

If precedent means anything in international law, and I believe it does--and our Liberal friends are always quick to cite international law and that is commendable--then here is a case where international law has been firmly established in precedent with these organizations and small jurisdictions that have been accorded observer status at the WHO.

We talk about contentious issues and contentious jurisdictions around the world. There are few issues more contentious than what is happening in the Middle East right now. Yet, we have supported observer status for the Palestinian authority. The least we can do is support Taiwan's request.

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5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to take part in this debate today. I will be splitting my time with the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

I would like to start off with a couple of technical matters and I would ask the previous speaker to take note of my suggestions.

The motion before the House has two aspects to it. The first part requests the granting of observer status to Taiwan with regard to the meetings of the WHO, and the second part calls upon the government to actively urge other member states and non-governmental organizations to support that goal. There are two separate items involved here and the second item may be problematic in terms of the best approach in pursuing this issue.

Given the sensitivity regarding the sovereignty matters of mainland China, this would cause some difficulty for some members who may want to vote in favour of observer status but who may want to vote against the second part of the motion. Rather than asking for the consent of the House at this time to split the motion, I raise it for the consideration of opposition members so that maybe prior to the vote they would consider recommending to the House to split the motion.

I noticed in some of the briefing notes that there is reference to the World Health Organization, the WHO, and also the World Health Assembly, the WHA. I have asked the question of other members, and it is not clear at this time, but it appears in the context of those notes that the WHO is a UN agency. It is an organization with a constitution with no provisions for observer status.

However, when the WHA hosts meetings or its members have meetings, it is called an assembly. It is the World Health Assembly and it is an assembly of those members. There are certain groups, such as the International Red Cross, Rotary Clubs, the Red Crescent, the PLO and others who have, by consent of the members, been permitted to be observers at the World Health Assembly to discuss various issues.

On a technical matter, it is interesting to note that most of the information we have before us calls for observer status for Taiwan to the WHO when in fact nothing exists. The motion may be technically out of order because it is not possible.

For the purposes of this issue, we should talk about the importance of having the involvement of Taiwan in the international community of those who have a common bond of interest in terms of global health.

I have had a great deal to do with the Canada-Taiwan parliamentary group over the last number of years. I have had an opportunity to travel to Taiwan on a number of occasions as a delegate. I have taken the opportunity to carefully inform myself about the sensitivities of the one China policy and about mainland relations between Taiwan and China. This is an extremely complex and sensitive issue. It would be totally inappropriate to introduce into this debate aspects related to those sovereignty questions. Canada has talked about our own sovereignty and how we as a sovereign nation must make certain decisions. When we get into those matters, it is for that country to make decisions.

This is a very unique situation. Taiwan split from mainland China in 1971. We must consider that China has about 1.4 billion people whereas Taiwan has about 23 million people, less than 2%. Taiwan's economy is 40% as large as the entire economy of mainland China. Even though Taiwan's population is less than 2% of the population of mainland China, its economy has been referred to as an economic miracle.

That is why countries around the world have extraordinary economic relationships with Taiwan. Taiwan had, the last time I was there, about seven to ten products that were rated number one in the world, mostly on the high tech side, so it is not a surprise to me that Taiwan was included recently in the World Trade Organization as a major trading entity. That did not threaten anyone, including China, simply because it made a great deal of sense to have a very large economy participating in the dialogue in a global economy.

However, there is another aspect to that. When we have a global economy it means that we have people who are globally mobile. It is this mobility that is the issue and I think that is what we should be discussing here. In China I believe there have been about 5,000 infections identified, as a round number, and there have been approximately 315 deaths. That is less than 10% of the infections that resulted in death. In Taiwan there are 570 infections but 72 deaths, so wait a minute, the proportion of deaths to infections is much more. Something is wrong there.

We have Chinese citizens, residents who are living on the mainland, who are also living on Taiwan. We have 400,000 Chinese business people from Taiwan who are doing business on the mainland. How is it that the number of deaths per infection is so much higher per capita in Taiwan than it is on the mainland? Somebody's numbers are not right, I would suggest.

It goes further. I think we have missed the point in the debate with regard to the SARS health issues we are talking about. Incidents of SARS in China in Guangdong province were detected in November 2002, but it was not until March 10, 2003, that the outside world was advised about SARS. China is a full member of the WHO. It interacts. It is there. It has access to all of what is offered by the WHO and to all its members, but the incidence of SARS was not revealed to the outside world for months.

I am concerned about why that happened, because as a consequence of that SARS spread around the world and people died. This is a very serious question and I hope the WHO will be able to deal with how one of its members was able to withhold this important information, which has affected the lives of the people of Taiwan, the lives of the people who died in Canada and the lives of people around the world where these hot sites are. It is a question that is ancillary to what we are discussing here today, but it concerns me a great deal. Why would one want observer status in an organization that cannot even rely on its own membership to play ball? It is a really interesting question, but I will not pursue it any further.

I have heard many members say that Taiwan could have everything it wanted and does get everything it wants even without observer status. Why is it, then, that the United States, the European Union and Japan all have come out in favour of Taiwan having observer status at the WHO? This is a problem. We cannot deny the fact that there must be something there. I believe Taiwan has something to contribute. We have 150,000 Taiwanese travelling to Canada each year. We have 15,000 students from Taiwan in Canada. It is our 40th largest trading partner and it is our 4th largest Asia-Pacific trading partner. It is part of our economy as well. It is part of the Canadian family. If it has a problem, that problem affects Canada as well.

I think it is in our best interests for Taiwan to be part of the observer network of the WHO and I would hope that members would consider it in the context of global health issues. I think that is the gist of the debate today. I ask members to seriously consider Canadian health issues in this global perspective.

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5:25 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Gurmant Grewal Canadian Alliance Surrey Central, BC

Mr. Speaker, I visited Taiwan some time ago. I believe that if we truly are living in a global village there is a need to reform international institutions. We need to have the global spirit in which all countries are treated fairly, particularly those countries that are progressing very fast with the rest of the world, the democracies, the self-governing democracies or the countries willing to participate in assisting in any humanitarian crisis anywhere in the world, for example, in earthquakes, in controlling other diseases, in developing vaccinations, in doing research and so on.

I believe that such countries should be given a chance in the international community. The international community should be treating those countries fairly. If Palestine, Malta or Cook Islands, those countries, nations or bodies, have been given that chance, even non-sovereign states, to have observer status at the WHO, I think Taiwan deserves an equal chance, particularly so if a precedent has been set. For example, in the World Trade Organization Taiwan is a full member of the WTO, as is China.

I would like to ask the member about this. If Taiwan has full status at the WTO, as China does, and if other sovereign bodies have status at the WHO, why not Taiwan? How would he like to justify this unfair attitude from the international community?

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5:25 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, again I think we are getting into the sovereignty issue. I think members will understand that membership in the WTO as an economic entity makes a great deal of sense.

I can recall meeting with President Lee Teng-Hui, the prior president, and I remember him telling us that these issues are so complex it probably will take another generation or two before they are resolved. Similarly, the current president, Chen Shui-bian, has also come up with I think a great deal of wisdom in terms of patience and making sure that we create conditions in which we can address in a peaceful and diplomatic way a resolution to the one China policy.

I do not think it is helpful to say, “We did it here and let us do it there”. I think there must be a way, a formula, an agreement or something agreed to by mainland China to allow and ensure that Taiwan has the opportunity to integrate its thinking and questions, et cetera, to recognize the fact that it is a global traveller in this global economy and that it is in the best interests of global health for Taiwan to be involved in some fashion. Whether it be called observer or invitee or whatever it is, Taiwan should also be there to give its input and expertise and also to learn from the rest of the world.

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5:25 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Gurmant Grewal Canadian Alliance Surrey Central, BC

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the comments of the member. He is a learned member of the House and makes very significant contributions in debate from time to time, but I do not agree with him when he says that this is an issue of one China. That is an issue for another day. This issue is not part of the motion we are debating today. The question, then, is about the welfare of the international community in giving non-sovereign states like Taiwan an opportunity to positively contribute to the health care and welfare of the international community, the true global village, as I mentioned.

The question to which I would like a direct answer from the member is this: Why the double standard? If Taiwan is a full member of the WTO, where is the problem in making it an observer at the WHO? It is a direct question. If there are other bodies of equivalent status that are given observer status for the WHO or WHA, why not Taiwan? That is the question with respect to the best interests and the welfare of the international community.

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5:25 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, the member believes that the accession of Taiwan to the WTO automatically gives it something else. That is not the way the world works. We have to earn everything on its own merit.

The WHO is a UN agency. Taiwan, unfortunately, is not a member of the UN and cannot be a member or an associate member, but there is an opportunity. Taiwan is not making the argument that it is in the WTO and it makes sense for it to be there; even China wants Taiwan to be there and in fact supported Taiwan being there under the one China umbrella. The WHO is a little bit different and I think we have to recognize the sensitivity. We cannot be a bull in a china shop and say that we will solve all the problems so let us just do this. I think it is very important to be wise and patient and seek the support of mainland China on the basis of global health issues and humanitarian reasons.

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5:30 p.m.

Barrie—Simcoe—Bradford Ontario

Liberal

Aileen Carroll LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs

Mr. Speaker, there has been a lot of discussion today about the need for this measure and how it will affect the health care persons both in Taiwan and Canada. Indeed the motion itself seems rather benign at first appraisal. However the issue of observer status in the World Health Organization as a United Nations organization is as one would expect subject to United Nations rules.

As my colleague, the secretary of state mentioned earlier today, membership of the WHO is open to nation states. Nation states are defined as those having been recognized by the United Nations credentials committee. This committee has not recognized Taiwan as a state.

Associate membership is available to territories or groups of territories which are not responsible for the conduct of their international relations. Application for admittance to the WHO as an associate member must be made on behalf of the territories or groups of territories by the member or other authority having responsibility for their international relations. According to the rules and procedures of the WHO and the United Nations, an application to admit Taiwan as an associate member would have to be made by China.

Some of the members today have mentioned that certain international health authorities are “observers” to the WHO. While these organizations have attended the annual World Health Assembly meetings in the past, their participation was not contested and received broad support of all WHO members.

Canada has long been on record that it would support a formula for Taiwan's participation in the WHO as long as this formula is in accordance with WHO constitutional rules and procedures and has received broad based approval of other WHO members.

As I mentioned earlier today, no country in the world today has diplomatic relations with both China and Taiwan.

Since the United Nations does not recognize Taiwan as a state, Canada's relationship with Taiwan is an unofficial one. As has been mentioned at great length, unofficial relations have not prevented Canada from developing close, mutually beneficial ties with Taiwan. On the contrary, Canadians and Taiwanese enjoy a rich partnership in many fields, including health which dates back to the father of modern medicine in Taiwan, a Canadian doctor, George Leslie Mackay.

Canada's approach to this relationship today is, simply put, one based on action, not words; on substance, not symbol. I am sure any member in the House who has been to Taiwan, which I have not, will indeed willingly attest to a broad range of activities and actors which support this rich relationship, and I know many members of the House have had an opportunity to visit Taipei.

As can be expected of any bilateral relationship, neither side is fully satisfied all of the time. However we should keep in perspective the contrast between those few areas where Canadian and Taiwanese priorities may differ and the bigger picture of extensive cooperation, including in the health fields.

Let me take this opportunity to highlight just a few aspects of this cooperation.

Economically, as has been mentioned, Taiwan is one of Canada's top 10 trading partners and is our 14th largest export market worldwide. Canadian multinationals, like Bombardier, Nortel Networks and hundreds of SMEs have had significant success in Taiwan. As a result of Taipei's membership in the World Trade Organization, which Canada was active in facilitating, we have witnessed a 20% growth last year in our agricultural exports to Taiwan, totalling over $1 billion. Canadian markets have been open to Taiwan's exporters for decades and the island enjoys a healthy trade surplus with Canada, about four to one.

For both Canada and Taiwan, this is about both jobs for today and a strategic investment in our increasingly globalized future, which is why Canada's National Research Council's cooperation with Taiwan's national science council represents the NRC's largest bilateral R and D relationship outside of North America. That investment and research are just two of many threads. When it comes to people to people contacts Taiwan is one of our closest neighbours on the Pacific Rim.

Over the past 30 years, more than 110,000 Taiwanese emigrated to Canada. Annually over 100,000 Taiwanese visit Canada as tourists, short term students or to see family and friends. Canada has become a preferred destination for full time students from Taiwan.

Our policy toward Taiwan then is a balanced one consistent with those of virtually all of our like-minded allies. We have been a strong supporter of Taiwan's entry into a variety of international organizations, including the WTO and APEC. We believe Taiwan needs to be compliant with international regulations, participating in multinational trade remedy regimes and partnering with Canada in global trade liberalization as well.

As a member of the WHO, we believe our responsibility to the health of the global community goes beyond occasional meetings in Geneva. That is why the government supported a working level visit by medical experts, led by Dr. James Young, Ontario's Commissioner of Public Security, to Hong Kong, Taipei and Beijing just last week. Their visit, which included meetings with local experts as well as WHO and CDC experts on the ground, will facilitate ongoing exchange on best practices and the latest research.

Like Canada, Taiwan and many of its neighbours, including China and Hong Kong, have also been affected by SARS. Authorities in Taiwan continue to work diligently both domestically and with the international community to curtail the spread of this disease. Canadians continue to watch the development of SARS in Taiwan with concern and empathy but we are doing more than watching. The meetings held last week during the visit to Taiwan by Dr. Young and his team were an important opportunity to provide the Taiwanese people with medical and moral support. The focus of that visit and indeed the consistent focus of this government is on SARS as a global public health challenge, not a political and diplomatic one.

Taiwan should be supported in its legitimate desire to ensure the health of its citizens, and there is much we can do in this regard. The message Dr. Young delivered in Taiwan last week, in addition to the detailed information on how Toronto managed its SARS challenge, is that Taiwan is not alone in its effort and that Canada will do our part to assist Taiwan. Cooperation and support will continue to be the theme of our relationship with Taiwan in the public health sector whether there are crises like SARS or ongoing programs like the training of Taiwanese health care administrators which have already been carried out within an existing expert relationship with British Columbia.

In the field of health, just as with the rest of our unofficial relationship with Taiwan, we will continue to focus on substance rather than form. This does not mean, as members of the House have at times suggested, that we oppose Taiwan's participation in the WHO. However, under present circumstances where the WHO as a United Nations body does not allow for the kind of long term participation which Taiwan seeks, Canada will continue to act in Canadian and global health interests.

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5:35 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Stockwell Day Canadian Alliance Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

Mr. Speaker, with respect, the member for Barrie—Simcoe—Bradford continues to throw out red herrings on this. She talks about the constitution related to membership. She mentioned membership and she mentioned associate membership. Taiwan is not asking for either of these. It is simply asking for observer status. She said that would have to have broad based appeal before Canada would support, not Canada being a leader, but Canada being a follower.

I submit to members the exhibits for broad based support: Japan supporting, the United States supporting and the European Union supporting. The European Union, as do we, sets aside the diplomatic situation. The Liberals keep trying to raise it. We keep focussing on the health part.

If the EU can say, and we agree with this, one China policy precludes formal relations with Taiwan, they recognize that and they set it aside. Then they go on and they say however, that we support Taiwanese participation in international organizations and processes.

If France, Germany, the Netherlands, Sweden, Spain, Belgium, Italy and other countries can support simple observer status, that is the broad based support for which the member was looking, why cannot the federal Liberals?

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5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Aileen Carroll Liberal Barrie—Simcoe—Bradford, ON

Mr. Speaker, I do not, but I wish I did, have the numbers that were in the assembly at the time the EU non-binding resolution was passed. I would assume that perhaps there were some MEPs, members of the European parliament, from some of the countries that were mentioned by the hon. member. I do not know either, the numbers that might have been in Congress in Washington when its non-binding resolution was passed.

I hate to appear possibly a little cynical, but I have been cognizant of a number of debates in the House which were predicated or used as a point of departure; votes in certain European parliaments that took place in the dead of night, with a handful of just the requisite number there to make it pass. However it blew within the House as though we had seen a revolution happen within that parliament.

As I said, I do not have those numbers. I merely make reference to others where I do have them. Nevertheless, those were the words and voices of parliamentary assemblies of which I am very proud to belong. There has been no subsequent action by the governments involved.

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5:40 p.m.

Bloc

Odina Desrochers Bloc Lotbinière—L'Érable, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the secretary of state a question about two things.

First, we are well aware that a motion recommending that Taiwan have observer status was adopted by the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade. Second, 161 members signed a petition along the same lines.

Given that she seems to be telling us that she is very democratic and open-minded, how does she feel now, in the House of Commons, about rejecting a motion adopted by the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade and a petition signed by 161 members? How does she explain this inconsistency?

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5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Aileen Carroll Liberal Barrie—Simcoe—Bradford, ON

I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, but I do not understand the member's question. Is he talking about something that happened in this House? I missed his meaning. Would it be possible for the member to repeat what he said?

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5:40 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

Yes, it is possible, but there is only one minute remaining. The hon. member for Lotbinière—L'Érable, if he can repeat his question in 30 seconds.

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5:40 p.m.

Bloc

Odina Desrochers Bloc Lotbinière—L'Érable, QC

Mr. Speaker, there are two things.

First, the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade adopted a motion to give Taiwan observer status. Second, 161 members signed a petition along the same lines.

With the open-mindedness that the member boasts of, how does she feel, as a democratic person, knowing that she is contributing to reversing a decision taken in committee and reversing a decision taken by 161 members who signed a petition?

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5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Aileen Carroll Liberal Barrie—Simcoe—Bradford, ON

Mr. Speaker, I will answer in English because time is running out.

Yes, I am aware of the decision of the committee. I was a member of the committee. Certainly the majority of those present on the foreign affairs committee did that. I do not agree with the decision but it was a democratically taken one.

Second, a number of persons, and I accept his numbers, have signed a petition in the House and we will see whether the signatures on that petition are realized in a vote once all the facts of the matter come out, in which I am hoping today's debate is assisting.

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5:40 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Rob Merrifield Canadian Alliance Yellowhead, AB

Mr. Speaker, I too wish that all of the facts would come out. I am sure my hon. colleague will consider them intently and perhaps even change her view and her decision.

Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with my hon. colleague from Nanaimo--Cowichan. Because of the interest of this topic we need to lend as many voices as we possibly can to this debate.

It is indeed my pleasure and privilege to speak to this motion as the health critic for the Canadian Alliance. It is a very important issue. Many of my colleagues have talked about it being of political and economic importance, but I would like to spend most of my time talking about the health importance of this.

I was an observer at the WHO. I was not a recognized observer but I was there the year before last. I had the opportunity to see how it actually worked. It is a great opportunity to dialogue with colleagues from around the world, to discern exactly how they feel on very important health issues. Things are done there by consensus and by trying to get along. For Taiwan to have observer status and be able to lend its voice to that dialogue is very important. Make no mistake as to where I am on this issue. I am 100% in support of observer status for Taiwan at the WHO.

It is an important health issue. That is where I would like to lend my voice to this debate because of what actually has happened over the last little while with regard to the SARS issue. If there is one thing we have learned in spades in Canada when dealing with an infectious disease such as SARS, it is the importance of time and of being very aggressive in dealing with the SARS virus with everything we have. Perhaps in some ways it is a forerunner of some worse viruses that are to come, but hopefully we have learned some lessons. One lesson we have learned is that we need to act quickly.

The question being asked all day long is where China was with regard to SARS. It started there and it carried on for at least five months prior to the world knowing about it. We have to really discern why that would take place. In fact, if we did not know about it, I am sure Taiwan did not know anything about it as well, and it is part of the exact same country, and the WHO did not have the opportunity to inform the world or Taiwan. It is very important that we make communication number one. This is certainly an opportunity to engage Taiwan in this kind of debate.

I would like to take a look at exactly where we are at with SARS and some of the things about this virus. It has a tremendous human and economic toll, as we see what has happened in Taiwan. Just over the last two months SARS has become such a common term. Two months ago we did not really know what the acronym meant. Now we mention SARS and everybody understands it full well. In just a two month period of time it has come on to the world stage and is a common term around the world. In fact I was in the Baltics last week and there is no question that the number one issue on their minds is what is happening in Canada with regard to SARS.

It looked as if Toronto had it under control and we were very pleased with the way the containment had come along, then all of a sudden SARS raised its ugly head again and is now infecting more people in Canada. There are 350 probable suspected cases and 27 deaths in Canada. Most of those are in the Toronto area. Around the world 8,000 have been infected and over 700 have died up to this point. It is very important that we look at that.

SARS continues to be a global threat, not least of all in Taiwan. We have to look at Taiwan and see exactly what went on there. Are they suffering from the same problems that we have had in the difference of how the patient in Vancouver was dealt with compared to the patient in Toronto? I am not blaming anyone, I am just saying that they were handled differently because of the information that was given to both those hospitals. One patient was put instantly into quarantine and in the other case it took 24 hours. We can see in a 24 hour span how many lives were lost, how many people were affected, how much economic damage has been done to Canada and to the Toronto area. We must discern how important this information is.

SARS has killed 27 people. Many hundreds of people have been sick. Thousands have been in quarantine. Our health care system has been pushed to the breaking point, as we saw five nurses at the height of the first outbreak in the Toronto area just walk away from their positions because of the stress of it. There is public fear out there that we are trying to alleviate. It is there, it is real and it is not only here but around the world.

The city of Toronto has such a black mark because of it and is something we will have to work to overcome. Hundreds of millions of businesses have been losing millions and millions of dollars in the hospitality and tourism industry. It is not just in the Toronto area, it is right across Canada. In the riding of Yellowhead, where I come from, in the national park tourism is a major economic driver particularly in the summer months. We are feeling some of the effects of this even in western Canada.

We understand how this has taken place. We talked about the difference between the two hospitals. We also have to ask where was the Liberal government? Where was the strong leadership? Where was the coordinated national response? Where was the ability to alleviate some of the public fear?

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5:45 p.m.

An hon. member

It is right here.

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5:45 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Rob Merrifield Canadian Alliance Yellowhead, AB

My hon. colleague says it is right here and looks at the Minister of Health. That is exactly the problem. The Minister of Health did not play quarterback for the national engine to deal with the problems, to stop it from moving outside our borders and deal with the security at the airports. In fact, even today as we speak the security is not there as was appropriately called for by the WHO.

What can we learn from this? We can learn lots and we had better learn lots because it has major repercussions. The repercussions are not only for SARS, not only for what we have seen happen here and what is happening in Taiwan.

I would like to take a quick look at what might happen in the future because it is very important in light of what we are talking about. Let us look a little further in the past before we look at some of the things that could happen in the future.

We can look at what was expected for the influenza problem and the epidemic that comes every 11 years. It is a very deadly influenza problem and we were expecting something in that regard. That was what alerted the two hospitals. We have to understand that influenza comes in many forms.

This is an alarming stat which I do not think most Canadians know and certainly I was surprised to learn that in 1918-19 the Spanish influenza epidemic killed 50 million people worldwide. It killed more than the great war did which just preceded it. It is amazing. The number of dead in Canada in that one year period was 50,000. The Asian flu in 1957 claimed 70,000 in the United States. The Hong Kong flu of six years ago killed half of the serious cases that it infected. When we see SARS and the seriousness of it and the 27 deaths we grieve for in Canada and the 700 we grieve for around the world, it is mild in comparison to what it could be and what will likely be in the future.

We have to be very cautious, stand on guard and be vigilant with regard to information. We must work internationally because these viruses know no borders. They do not care much whether there is a 49th parallel between the United States and Canada, or water between Taiwan and mainland. It is important that we discern how much information is given and that the information is given liberally.

Just to mention a few, there is the West Nile virus, HIV, and the mad cow disease which we are going to talk about tonight in an emergency debate. I could talk about all of these as well as the foot and mouth disease in the United Kingdom, but my time has gone.

It is very important that we discern what is really being asked for in this motion. It is nothing more than to allow recognition status at the World Health Organization for Taiwan, which is only the right thing to do. There is no reason, no true justification, why we should not allow this to happen and to not encourage it to happen. I believe it reflects where most Canadians are on this issue. I would encourage members of the House to consider all the facts as they vote on this issue.

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5:50 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Reed Elley Canadian Alliance Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to join in the debate. I support the motion and believe it is an issue that should be coming before all members of the House for both debate and support.

The world that we live in has changed in many ways in recent years. Indeed in recent months we have heard many references to the world since 9/11. Without a doubt there are many things that have changed even since that time. We are more aware of course of both our personal and our country's security. We hear terms such as biological warfare and recognize that it could now happen here and not just in some far-off place.

There have been many other changes in recent years as well. Our world has become much smaller. When Lord Grey was the Governor General of Canada in the early 1900s, he had a summer home. That does not sound unusual today, except that his summer home was located in south central B.C., I believe in the riding of the hon. member for Kootenay—Columbia. To reach his summer home, the Governor General rode the train for days in a cross-country adventure and arrived in Banff, Alberta in order to begin several more days of horseback riding.

By way of comparison, many of us will be on a plane later this week and will arrive in British Columbia in hours, not days. Our offices are filled with computers that send and receive e-mails to virtually anywhere in the world instantly. We can communicate with our constituents from all parts of Canada through cell phones, video conferencing and faxes.

My point for raising this is simply that we no longer live in isolation. No country lives in isolation any more. From a global perspective, distance has become less and less relevant. We can no longer view world issues with an isolationist perspective.

In recent weeks the world has watched and grappled with severe acute respiratory syndrome, or SARS. As we already know, this infectious disease has infected people around the world, killing many in the process. The problem is we simply do not fully understand all aspects of the disease, how it started, how it is transmitted. At present we have no cure or vaccine to prevent the spread of SARS.

In the past there have been many devastating epidemics of influenza that have swept the globe. Surely learning the lessons of history we must do everything in our power to ensure that this does not happen again. Disease does not recognize borders or lines on a map. Disease travels where infected people travel and travel is an integral part of our business and vacation world today. As we have witnessed in recent weeks, a disease like SARS has the capability of travelling great distances before we even know it exists.

What are we able to do? We must share information openly. It is simply not enough to expect that each individual country can devise its own preventive methods or cure solely on its own.

The case of Taiwan is clearly not in keeping with this. As my colleague the member for Kootenay—Columbia so ably outlined in his opening address of this debate today, there are very clear and compelling reasons for supporting Taiwan's application as an observer to the World Health Organization. This debate should not involve international or internal politics. It does involve world health and that is clearly where the debate should remain centred.

From the information that I have read, Taiwan has requested observer status to the World Health Organization in the past. Unfortunately to date, this request has fallen on deaf ears as well as outright obstruction from the People's Republic of China. The time has come to move beyond idle words and to real action on this matter. The most recent outbreak of SARS gives impetus to resolving this issue.

Taiwan, with a population of over 22 million living in a geographic region a little larger than the size of Vancouver Island where I live, has all the health amenities that the citizens of a developed country have come to expect.

Among other things, Taiwan has contributed to medical research and to health issues that have helped people from around the world. The Taiwanese people deserve the same access and level of health care that everyone in this room has come to expect when it comes to world epidemics like SARS.

It is imperative that we focus on the health of people, not on politics. Earlier today the secretary of state felt that we should not lose focus on this issue. On this I agree with him. However, it is my belief that his government has already lost focus on this important issue itself.

It is my belief that Taiwan must be viewed as a health entity. The Taiwanese government and people face health difficulties regardless of any political claim. The health needs of the people of the island of Taiwan must be viewed in a progressive, not regressive, manner.

The world around us today relies on expanded trade. When the Asian economy sneezes, the world economy catches a cold. So it is when the Asian population contracts a new illness: the health of the whole world suffers.

We can take steps to resolve this and Canada can be shown to be a leader in this matter, a compassionate, caring leader. Along with world trade of commodities, there must be world trade in all forms of information, including, and especially perhaps, health information.

The world has watched as SARS took root in China and how China misreported the now deadly effects of this mysterious outbreak. Now China is attempting to withhold Taiwan's entry as an observer to the World Health Organization. I do not find this an acceptable practice and I must voice my opposition to it on health and humanitarian grounds.

I note that while the secretary of state mentioned UN recognized countries that are not formally a part of the World Health Organization, he failed to mention that according to The Globe and Mail on May 20, 2003, both the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Rotary International Club have observer status with the World Health Organization. Somehow the believability of the hon. member's argument does not stand up, then, to greater scrutiny in the face of these statistics.

In considering this debate I have reflected on the roles that Canada has played in many other international situations. Canadians have been involved internationally through the federal government, NGOs, charitable organizations and various other methods in order to ensure that the world has clean drinking water, fresh food and the like. Now, when we can support the Taiwanese in a practical manner, the federal government has an opportunity to step up and be counted on the world stage. Unfortunately, from what I have seen today the government is going to continue to follow a hypocritical pattern.

Let me just repeat some of the opening statements from the constitution of the World Health Organization:

Health is a state of complete physical, mental and social well-being...health is one of the fundamental rights of every human being, without distinction of race, religion, political belief, economic or social condition...the promotion and protection of health is of value to all...Governments have a responsibility for the health of their peoples, which can be fulfilled only by the provision of adequate health and social measures.

In fact, I note that nowhere in the constitution of the World Health Organization is there direct reference to any one country. There are, however, many references to the needs of people and the promotion of physical, mental and social health, but no references to countries. I believe this is an important distinction.

Although the World Health Organization is an arm of the United Nations, which obviously is made up of countries, everyone is deserving of good health. Taiwan is not asking for additional consideration of the World Health Organization for full or associate membership. Taiwan is not asking the World Health Organization to make, therefore, a political decision. Taiwan is asking to have observer status in order to receive and offer health information in the most efficient manner possible. Furthermore, the United States, the European Union and Japan are now all in favour of granting Taiwan observer status with the World Health Organization.

Why should Canada be out of step? A country that has had a compassionate record in terms of countries in need, we should not be hypocritical now in our stand on Taiwan. I fully support the motion and I urge all good members of the House to do likewise.

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6 p.m.

Brampton Centre Ontario

Liberal

Sarkis Assadourian LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. member if he can indicate to us what the U.S. policy is on this issue. Also, does the member support U.S. policy on the same issue we are discussing today?

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6:05 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Reed Elley Canadian Alliance Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Mr. Speaker, it is my understanding that of course the United States has had a benevolent relationship with the Taiwanese people for a long time. It has been supportive of Taiwan's position in the world and indeed has come to its rescue a number of times in terms of military aid and that sort of thing. I think in a sense the United States acts as a protector for Taiwan in the world in the face of some of the concerns vis-à-vis China. So my understanding is that the United States' position is in favour of this.