House of Commons Hansard #40 of the 38th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was cards.

Topics

Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec ActGovernment Orders

11 a.m.

Bloc

Roger Clavet Bloc Louis-Hébert, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to join the debate on Bill C-9, following my colleagues in the Bloc. As was mentioned earlier, the Bloc will oppose this bill for various reasons. I would like to highlight some of them.

This is a bill that proposes to create the Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec. This may seem a bit odd but, actually, past federal experience in the regions of Quebec has not always been successful, far from it. One need only look at unemployment numbers in the regions. It is an appalling disaster.

Would Bill C-9 do anything particular for Quebec? Not at all. From whatever angle one looks at it, it simply creates a federal department and results in a new duplication. We certainly do not need an additional federal structure in Quebec, far from it.

When we consider the bill in detail, we see, for instance, the duties of the new responsible minister, the one who would get a limousine. This might indeed be the intent behind the bill, to add an extra limousine for a minister. We do not need another federal department.

When one looks closely at the minister's powers, they are vague and far-ranging. Nor does the bill provide for an integrated federal strategy in the regions. By contrast, what we in the Bloc have been saying is that regions first and foremost need an integrated development strategy, but only Quebec is in a position to put one into place.

Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec ActGovernment Orders

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Ken Epp Conservative Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I know that I cannot refer to the presence or absence of members so I will not, but I think it appropriate that we have a Liberal minister in the House and also at least one Liberal member. I therefore call for quorum.

Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec ActGovernment Orders

11:05 a.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Call in the members.

And the count having been taken:

Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec ActGovernment Orders

11:05 a.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I see 20 members here. We will resume debate. The hon. member for Louis-Hébert.

Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec ActGovernment Orders

11:05 a.m.

Bloc

Roger Clavet Bloc Louis-Hébert, QC

Mr. Speaker, I also thank my Conservative colleague for having drawn the attention of the House to the insufficient number of Liberal members at this moment. We will be able to continue with Bill C-9.

As I was saying before the interruption, only Quebec can create this integrated government structure that is referred to in the bill on regional development.

You see what the scenario is now. Two half governments are involved here. Neither Quebec nor Ottawa have the resources to ensure regional development now. So we have two half governments that are involved in half development programs and only achieving--we have to be honest here--half results. This does not work very well at the regional level.

The way this bill is worded, this would involve two government levels and it would once again infringe upon Quebec's jurisdiction. But above all, in the regions of Quebec, one level of government would have the effect of cancelling out what the other government is doing. The forces would cancel each other out instead of complementing each other

I come from the national capital area. I am talking about Quebec City's, of course. Believe it or not, in that area, which is not that far from major centres—it is a major urban centre—we have the same distressing problem as in remote areas. Even though there is a minister supposedly responsible for the Quebec City area, federal money does not even reach it.

Imagine people in the Gaspé or the Laurentians, such as my colleagues here,or in other Quebec regions. Federal money does not come back. When it does, it is always with strings attached and all kind of conditions to make sure the regions are dependant on the federal government. Bill C-9 would continue in the same vein, namely exploit the weakness and vulnerability of the regions.

If Ottawa finally decides to show interest in Quebec's regions, it should start by looking after its own responsibilities. That is were it should start. We in the Bloc believe that instead of introducing a new bill, the federal government should do a number of very basic things.

First, it should respect Quebec's jurisdictions. The government seems to have trouble understanding that, but it might do so by starting by respecting local consultation bodies. We are well equipped in this regard in Quebec. They already exist. Why not give them better tools and make sure Canada Economic Development works properly? There is already an agency that should do that. It does not take one more limo. It is not needed in Quebec.

First, federal programs should be tailored to the needs of the regions. My colleagues mentioned earlier the need to re-establish funding for new infrastructure programs. There is also federal capital spending. That would be a good start, a good indication of the government's good faith.

It should not forget either to support employment insurance reform. When we talk about a reform we are not talking only about lowering or raising EI contributions. We are talking about reform. The regions are particularity hard hit by unemployment, which is very high.

Some realities are not the same from one region to the next, but all the regions of Quebec suffer the same great pain. In the Gaspé, seasonal workers are penalized by employment insurance rules. In other regions the problems are different. Life is not the same in Montreal as in Vancouver or Toronto.

The small regions need support. That support does not come from creating a department, on the contrary, it will come from taking the current structures and freeing up the money that is not getting through to Quebec's regions.

Moreover, the last thing we need is more fighting between Quebec City and Ottawa over structural issues, including a new department that would only increase bureaucracy. In the Bloc Québécois we are very sensitive to the reality of the regions. We listen to the dialogue; we listen to the people telling us that things are not going well.

It is not enough to wave a magic wand, to appear and say here is a bill and—abracadabra—a new department comes in to save the regions from the poor conditions in which they have been imprisoned. They have not been imprisoning themselves in these conditions.

They are going through terrible situations in terms of employment, resources and access. There are as we speak some regions of Quebec that do not even have high speed Internet access. Since telecommunications are in the federal domain, why is it that in 2004 there are regions of Quebec that are not yet connected?

We need some practical action much more than a bill to create a department. It does not take a rocket scientist to think of that. It is just a matter of finding the resources that already exist.

It must be understood that creating a new department will increase the weight of the bureaucracy. Moreover, there will be risks of duplication. It is true that the bill is based on similar initiatives in Canada's western provinces. Western Economic Diversification, or WD, operates quite successfully in the west. I have lived in Manitoba, and I am proud to say so, and I have seen it operating well.

At this time, however, we see that the provincial agencies have had their own legislation since 1988. They are well governed provincially.

The federal government must be reminded of its obligation to respect Quebec's jurisdiction, since Quebec must become and remain the architect of regional development.

Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec ActGovernment Orders

11:10 a.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

Mr. Speaker, my riding, La Pointe-de-l'Île, has a nice name. This riding is on the most easterly point of the Island of Montreal—yes, it is an island—along the river. You should come and see it. It is quite beautiful and the people there are very proud of this new name because it sets them apart.

The riding has a chamber of commerce and the La Pointe-de-l'Île school board. The name is a contraction of Longue-Pointe, describing the geography of this part of the riding, and the tip of the island, which makes La Pointe-de-l'Île.

I have no choice but to rise to speak to Bill C-9, which sets out to establish the Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec and to establish a department to run that agency.

For many years—I am from the greater Montreal area—politically speaking, I have taken an interest in what has been happening in this sad saga in the relationship between the federal government and Quebec—Quebec is named specifically in this bill—in terms of this issue of regional development.

I must confess I miss the days of Pierre Elliott Trudeau. During that time an agreement was negotiated whereby Quebec got money from the federal government and it was Quebec that decided how to use it.

A lot has changed since then. My colleagues have said so and I will say it in another way. Not only is an agency being established supposedly for the economic development of Canada for the regions of Quebec, but the mandate specifically states that the minister must work on developing an integrated policy.

There is something absolutely absurd in saying that the regional development of Canada for Quebec has to be diversified or should be diversified within an integrated policy of Canada. Only Quebec can integrate diversification of its various regions. Why the determination to prevent Quebec from developing itself and to deny it the means to do so, all the while boasting about the merits of federalism? Indeed, my Quebec colleagues are truly very patient.

Around the time when I was elected to this place and appointed critic for human resources development, the Federal Office of Regional Development (Quebec), or FORD-Q, set up by the Conservatives was replaced by a new department called Canada Economic Development. The hon. members heard right; only in government appropriations did the word “Quebec” appear.

On the department's letterhead and in all our contacts with the department's head—I think that a secretary of state was in charge of CED at the time—“for Quebec Regions” was in brackets. It was established around the time we came to this House in 1993, before the near victory in the 1995 referendum.

That is pretty incredible: to name a department responsible for regional development Canada Economic Development. Over the years, it became necessary to add a reference to Quebec in the department's name and, as a result, the letterhead will once again have to be changed, like a whole lot of other things. I wonder how much it costs each time. The new name will be Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec. I am sure that, if etymologists or literature experts were asked to study the meaning of this expression, they would find it twisted, to say the least.

This goes to show that the federal government is unable to recognize that, without the fiscal imbalance, Quebec would have sufficient resources. Quebec is not only perfectly able to develop its own economy, but it is also in an infinitely better position to do so with no one else to interfere. We have to realize that, with the mandate given to the minister under the bill, this agency will take the definition of two development strategies even further.

I have heard members opposite say that they have worked with local communities. The local communities need money. That is why they have to work with the federal representative. Are the projects suited to their region, as compared to Quebec as a whole, though? No one can tell us.

One thing is for certain: there are two infrastructures, two administrations, two groups of people working separately on Quebec's regional development, one trying to integrate its work with what is being done within Quebec and the other trying to integrate it with what is going on across Canada. No enterprise can succeed with two different development strategies.

This reminds me a bit of what is being done in terms of international development. Countries all want visibility in that area, some more than others. Canada is particularly hungry for visibility. It wants its image, its logo, its flag on a huge number of projects that will never lead to development regardless of the money invested in them. That is not how development was brought about in the areas where it was successfully carried out. God knows development is needed in the regions.

Unfortunately, regions also fall victim to the government's hunger for visibility. Of course, with Quebec taking its future into its own hands, our colleagues opposite felt the urge to show how essential they are and to increase their visibility, by brandishing their little flags at every opportunity they have.

It is indeed unfortunate because the young people who are leaving the regions as well as those who remain in the regions where fewer services are provided both need development. What they do not need is quarrels and duplication in development strategies which can only ensure one thing: no regional development whatsoever.

Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec ActGovernment Orders

11:20 a.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Is the House ready for the question?

Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec ActGovernment Orders

11:20 a.m.

Some hon. members

Question.

Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec ActGovernment Orders

11:20 a.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec ActGovernment Orders

11:20 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec ActGovernment Orders

11:20 a.m.

Some hon. members

No.

Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec ActGovernment Orders

11:20 a.m.

The Deputy Speaker

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec ActGovernment Orders

11:20 a.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec ActGovernment Orders

11:20 a.m.

The Deputy Speaker

All those opposed will please say nay.

Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec ActGovernment Orders

11:20 a.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec ActGovernment Orders

11:20 a.m.

The Deputy Speaker

In my opinion the yeas have it.

And more than five members having risen:

Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec ActGovernment Orders

11:20 a.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Call in the members.

And the bells having rung:

Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec ActGovernment Orders

11:20 a.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I have been requested by the government whip to defer the vote until 3 p.m.

The House resumed from December 6, consideration of the motion that Bill C-22, an act to establish the Department of Social Development and to amend and repeal certain related Acts, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Department of Social Development ActGovernment Orders

11:20 a.m.

Bloc

Christian Simard Bloc Beauport, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am happy to rise and speak to this bill, not because I or my party support the principle or the decision to establish this department. Indeed, I wish to indicate what, in my view, is missing in this process of creation and division of existing departments in the field of regional development, of creating things that nobody is asking for.

I must confess my disappointment with a number of laws. I am a newcomer in this House and I am a little disappointed with the parliamentary agenda that looks more like red tape, or, if I may say so, like liberal tape, than substantive debates on bills that are supposed to help Canadians and Quebeckers.

Thus, instead of having laws that allow the government to use its incredibly large surpluses that are hidden in foundations and budget estimates, or in the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, departments are being created, then divided and civil servants are moved around. That is always done,and above all, in jurisdictions that do not belong to the federal government, but to the government of Quebec or other provinces. Such is the case with the famous Department of Social Development.

Before getting into politics, I wondered how I would look at the issues and what my perspective would be. I told myself that I would read each piece of legislation presented to us and try to determine if it is good for children and if it can improve their living conditions.

As we know, there are more than one million Canadians, and a similar proportion in Quebec--unfortunately the situation is no different in that respect—of children living in poverty. In fact, this number is growing constantly. At one point, we had some degree of control over child poverty, but it seems this kind of poverty has been increasing in recent years.

Will this bill really help? Will this division, the creation of a new structure within another structure, help in the fight against child poverty? I very much doubt it.

Various programs will come under the responsibility of this new department if it is created. We hope it will not be, because we do not see how it will improve conditions for people.

In another life, I worked a great deal with community organizations. Under the bill before us, the department will be responsible for the volunteer and community sector. I remember the frenzy, when community groups were constantly forced to apply for grants, often for reasons of visibility. This required a lot of energy on the part of volunteers or of those who were somewhat pompously called permanent members of community organizations and volunteers—I was one of them—and whose main feature was in fact that they were not “permanent” and that they were in a precarious situation.

How much energy is spent by these groups in trying to be included in a system of programs to get a few dollars? What these groups need is a clear policy of recognition. The Quebec government is trying to give them such a policy, but it often does not have the means to do that. These groups need a policy that gives them recognition and a permanent status to be able to serve people and provide services to the community.

Instead, they must bend over backwards to comply with the objectives of federal department programs that have more to do with ensuring visibility for the minister than with giving real resources to people.

This is one example among many others that do not directly relate to this department's responsibility. Hon. members will understand that, as the Bloc Québécois critic on housing, I take this issue very seriously.

Therefore, since 1993, the federal government has been talking about giving back full responsibility to the provinces, including Quebec, for housing, so they can set housing policies.

This is 2004, almost 2005—Christmas is approaching—and that transfer has still not been made. This transfer will have very strong consequences, but because it has not happened, Canadian Mortgage and Housing Corporation, in this case, is no longer investing in the cooperative or non-profit housing sector, since this responsibility will soon be transferred. All this duplication, all these approaches by the federal government have direct consequences on people's lives and we have to admit that the consequences are not good.

We see measures that, on the face of it, may seem interesting. We looked at the child tax benefit. Once again, we have seen that there is a measure, but it is a measure that ensures that a certain group of very poor people will have to pay more. There are many different mechanisms in the income tax legislation.

In the case of people with the lowest incomes, because of Quebec's $5 day care system, now at $7, the government has $70 million in taxes that it can draw on. Normally, those taxes should have been used for the benefit of those families who are losing $70 million because of a measure that supposedly was taken to help them. They are the neediest.

So, we see that this duplication has a direct cost to the poorest members of society. This desire to create departments, to label all assistance, to say that this centralizing government in Ottawa is good and nice to the people, causes major problems for the people it is supposed to serve.

Consequently, the creation of a Department of Economic Development for the Regions of Quebec, a Department of Human Resources and Skills Development and a Department of Social Development does not seem to me to create tangible values for people. All this does not bring one cent more, it only creates confusion, a desire for visibility and a quest for centralizing power.

Do we move ahead in terms of equity, of resource sharing, of relieving the debt of the provinces through adequate transfers? No, we are not going in that direction, we are moving in the opposite direction. This is too bad and it saddens me, so soon before Christmas, to know that there are people who count on a government that would adopt measures on their behalf. They realize that the government helps itself first, serves its visibility, its structures, its public service, its mandarins, but does not serve the people who pay the income tax, people who hope for something better. It makes me sad.

There is a host of examples, and to think that this department will be in charge of national standards in the area of day care centres under the Canadian day care centres program.This program will impose standards on all provinces, and eventually on Quebec, while Quebec has been the leader in this field. It is a leadership that turns out to be very costly for Quebec.

The federal government has saved a billion dollars since the introduction of $5 day care centres, now at a cost of $7. This is a billion dollars that the government does not have to pay out in tax credits to families.

With this amount, if there had been full compensation, would we have been able to better serve patients in hospitals? The answer is yes. Would we have been able to use that money to put books in libraries? Yes, we could have. When Quebec helps its children, it also enables the federal government to save a billion dollars and this government, well aware of that, does nothing to compensate this injustice, does nothing to transfer this money.

During the election, the government promised that an agreement had been signed, but that agreement was not worth the paper on which it was written. This is a scandal. That agreement still has not been put on the table. This is why people sometimes become cynical about politics.

As a new politician, this situation really saddens me.

I am very sad to see so much energy being spent to create new structures, to look for visibility, to make intrusions and to create new departments in areas that are clearly under Quebec's jurisdiction. We put so much energy into playing partisan politics and waving the flag to get more visibility. This energy could be used to provide better government, to better distribute wealth, to work better and more efficiently in our own areas of jurisdiction.

Instead of that, we create communities departments and regional development departments for Quebec and we expand the Health department. In short, we are doing a lot but doing it badly, in areas of provincial jurisdiction. Meanwhile, we are doing very little, and doing it poorly, in our own areas of jurisdiction.

If I may digress for just a moment, today again, I was looking at the evidence given by the sailors of the Chicoutimi who, while looking at the rusted submarines in which they were to sail, said “They will not force us to sail in that.” Until we have our own country, this is an area of federal jurisdiction, and this so-called competence is rather a shameful incompetence on the part of the federal government.

However, the government is eager to create structures, minor visibility programs, interfere in jurisdictions outside its own. It does so right in the throne speech and in legislation before the House.

I would like to support this legislation. I would like to be enthusiastic about various legislative measures supporting it. I would like to consider in the House legislation to protect the environment and ensure sustainable development. It would be interesting, as long as that legislation respects the responsibilities of the provinces and Quebec.

However, I am forced to admit that the most interesting things I have experienced in the political arena to date are the opposition motions. I am talking about the work of the Bloc Québécois and also the NDP, in some instances, particularly the motion limiting trans fats. That is something that directly concerns public health. It would not have come from the government. There have been many bills; I worked on Bill C-15, to protect migratory birds, but I wonder if it is a joke and if we will have the means to implement it.

Once again, an amendment by the opposition was necessary to implement, beyond the appearance of establishing significant fines, minimum fines for those shamelessly dumping petroleum products. For the first time in Canada, we have implemented significant minimum fines in environmental legislation. This did not come for this government. It is not really concerned with reality, but more with appearances.

In closing, I want to say that I will oppose, as will my colleagues, the creation of this Department of Social Development. We believe that the federal government must recognize once and for all that Quebec, although its leeway has been considerably reduced by the fiscal imbalance, has still managed to implement internationally renowned quality programs.

The Bloc Québécois will never agree to the creation of a department that not only has the mandate to duplicate and copy Quebec's avant-garde policies, but that also prevents Quebec from fully developing these policies. It is not about visibility, but about respect for the integrity, security and health of individuals.

We must always ask if this legislation serves the public or the structure. Unfortunately, this government is telling us that it is the latter.

Department of Social Development ActGovernment Orders

11:35 a.m.

Bloc

Marcel Gagnon Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Mr. Speaker, if there are questions or comments I will give up my turn. If not, I would like to continue the debate.

Department of Social Development ActGovernment Orders

11:35 a.m.

The Deputy Speaker

We are now at the question and comment period. The hon. member for Windsor West.

Department of Social Development ActGovernment Orders

11:35 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak today to Bill C-22, the Department of Social Development Act.

This is the creation of a special department that we are interested in pursuing as New Democrats. We wish to see whether or not we can fulfill a strong mandate of Canadians to have social development as part of our economic strategy.

I was pleased to participate in my past life with a number of different movements and not for profit organizations that had some access to government programs, which successfully led to changing people's lives. I would like to reference a few of them because I think Bill C-22 might provide that opportunity. I use the word might because I do have some hesitation.

The only concern I have in moving to the next stage is that this particular department could at the end of the day become a leftovers department. If the government does not truly believe in the mandate of the department and the effect that it could have on people and the social economy, it might not get the budgetary support that is required to make sure things could be fulfilled.

I want to define specifically the department's responsibility. Social Development Canada will have responsibility for children and families, persons with disabilities, seniors, caregivers, the voluntary sector and the social economy.

Those elements are very important, not only in terms of how they can affect individuals and their lives in either turning things around or improving them significantly through services that then lead to greater steps, but they are also very much a part of our economy.

Our voluntary sector, which is a huge sector that does wonderful work, has a lot of great professionals who often go with less pay. They actually need higher accountability in some respects than in other jurisdictions because they do not have the resources to make mistakes. I, fortunately, participated in my employment field at the Association for Persons with Physical Disabilities--

Department of Social Development ActGovernment Orders

11:40 a.m.

Bloc

Marcel Gagnon Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I apologize to my colleague. I just wanted to know whether we were at the question and comment period or whether we were resuming debate.

Department of Social Development ActGovernment Orders

11:40 a.m.

The Deputy Speaker

We are resuming debate.