House of Commons Hansard #136 of the 38th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was c-65.

Topics

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-65, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (street racing) and to make a consequential amendment to another Act, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

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3:20 p.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

Mr. Speaker, I noted the comments by the member for Mississauga South praising the gun registry. In speaking to police officers, they well recognize the faults in the program itself. They know they cannot rely on the accuracy of it. In fact, it would be foolish for officers to contact the gun registry and rely on being told that there is or is not a firearm in a particular residence or business to which they are going. I am surprised the member would advocate that police officers put their lives at risk by relying on a registry that is notoriously deficient in terms of its ability to track firearms.

Does the member for Kildonan—St. Paul have any further comments to perhaps try to correct this mistaken impression that the member for Mississauga South has left with Canadians about the $2 billion gun registry on which the government has wasted money and that the money would much better spent on front line policing?

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3:25 p.m.

Conservative

Joy Smith Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Mr. Speaker, yesterday I spoke with the president of the Winnipeg Police Association. He informed me quite categorically that neither the Winnipeg Police Association nor the Manitoba Police Association supported the gun registry. When it was first introduced, the Liberals speculated that it would cost $2 million. Now we are well past the $1 billion mark. How badly can they manage the finances around the gun registry before it should be shut down?

It is like the black hole. Between the scandal that we hear about on a daily basis from members opposite and the gun registry, our nation is at risk right now because of a lack of front line police officers. I take exception to the members opposite defending the gun registry as a very useful tool. If the government were responsible and able to maintain a form of the gun registry within the mandate of what it started out to be, reasonably priced and able to service the community in a reasonable manner, then that could be revisited.

However, at this point in time we are looking at well over $1 billion that has been wasted. I understand it is very difficult to track and find out where all the money has gone and why the gun registry has cost this much. That is still under examination. Members on this side of the House, and as my illustrious critic just explained, believe front line police officers are critical in suppressing crime in Canada. I thank the member for his comments and for his very astute approach to this issue.

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3:25 p.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

Mr. Speaker, I know the member has been a very strong proponent of front line policing. I happen to know she also is the mother of a police officer. I know she shares the anxieties of not only the ordinary citizen worried about crime on the streets, but she also carries the added burden of being a mother who has a son who has decided to be a police officer.

One of the concerns that police officers share with me regularly is the lack of resources they have when it comes to fighting crime. They are fighting 21st century technology and yet they are hamstrung by the current laws that the government has passed.

Today we heard the Ontario Association of Chiefs of Police say that the government's laws on conditional sentences and early parole are obstructing, and that is a strong word, their ability to capture criminals and that red tape and bureaucracy are strangling the criminal justice system. Our chiefs of police in the province of Ontario are telling the government its policies are obstructive and they are strangling criminal justice in our country.

Could the member for Kildonan—St. Paul, either through her personal experience as the mother of a police officer in conversations with him or generally in with conversations from police, expand on some of the concerns that may have been communicated to her?

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3:30 p.m.

Conservative

Joy Smith Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Mr. Speaker, the member for Provencher is well aware of what is going on in our nation. He has taken a leadership role in trying to change things to make them better.

Yes, as a mother of a police officer, police officers come to our house and we have many conversations. Over and above that, being the former justice critic for the province of Manitoba, I met with many other segments of society and talked about sentences. The public is even talking about Michael Smith, a 25 year old, who was given an 18 month conditional sentence on two counts of dangerous driving causing death in a 2001 accident. He ran a red light and killed two people.

Following that more problems continued. This is typical of the kinds of things we talk about every day, not only with police officers but with people on the street.

The federal government has allowed the crime segment to get out of control in our great nation, a nation that gave birth to the RCMP. The RCMP is known and honoured worldwide. Many police officers across the country put their lives on the line every day.

We have a one billion dollar or two billion dollar gun registry, massive amounts of money being put into a black hole. Yet there is no direct input to complement the police forces on our streets.

Think about people such as Jack McLaughlin who has been a real champion of victims' rights in Manitoba. He has become a hero in his own right for the way he has championed the cause of victims. Jack has often said to me, “Why don't the victims of crime have some rights?” People like Jack come forward on a daily basis and say that we need to put the resources into the police complement on the street.

There have been many eloquent speeches by members opposite who have said that they are concerned about safety of Canadians. My answer to that is they should put their money where their mouth is and put the police resources on the streets now.

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3:30 p.m.

Liberal

Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON

Mr. Speaker, I will be speaking in favour of Bill C-65, the street racing bill.

Our government recognizes the need to take up the thrust of the late Mr. Cadman's private member's bill, Bill C-230, while addressing the principled objections that were raised about the bill at the time when it was debated in the previous session of Parliament under a different bill number.

We already have offences in the Criminal Code covering the behaviour of street racing. The late Mr. Cadman's bill did not propose to add any new offences.

This coverage in the offence provisions related to dangerous driving and criminal negligence appears to be why Mr. Cadman, in Bill C-230, proposed instead to specify that a judge must consider street racing to be an aggravating factor in sentencing for four listed offences: criminal negligence causing death, dangerous driving causing death, criminal negligence causing bodily harm, and dangerous driving causing bodily harm.

The government bill maintains this aggravating factor approach found in Bill C-230. There is a second key feature in the bill proposed by the late Mr. Cadman. If there is street racing that accompanies one of the four offences, Bill C-230 moves the driving prohibition from the discretionary category of driving prohibitions into the mandatory category of driving prohibitions. The government's Bill C-65 also maintains this mandatory driving prohibition feature of Bill C-230.

I believe the government bill does address the concerns that arise in relation to the sentencing aspects of private member's Bill C-230. The prime example is that private member's Bill C-230 borrowed its driving prohibition period, for a first offence, directly from the impaired driving prohibition that is mandatory on a first offence, where there is no death or no injury.

The Criminal Code's mandatory driving prohibition for impaired driving was introduced into the Criminal Code in 1985. Until 1999 that range was three months to three years on a first offence. In 1999 that range on a first offence was changed from one year to three years.

The big concern with such an approach is that the discretionary driving prohibitions currently in the Criminal Code have a higher maximum than that proposed in Bill C-230 for a first offence, where there is death or injury and an aggravating factor of street racing.

For criminal negligence causing death, the maximum driving prohibition that a court can currently impose is a lifetime ban on driving. Bill C-230 would cut this maximum to a driving prohibition maximum period of just three years for a first offence with an aggravating factor of street racing. For dangerous driving causing death, criminal negligence causing bodily harm and dangerous driving causing bodily harm, a court can currently impose up to a 10 year prohibition from driving. Bill C-230 would cut this maximum to a period of driving prohibition that is just five years.

For the higher maximum driving prohibition ranges proposed in private member's Bill C-230 for repeat offences to apply, the prosecution would need to obtain a transcript from the prior offence sentencing hearing and check to see whether street racing was found to be a factor in that prior offence. Obtaining the transcripts of the sentencing hearing is not guaranteed, especially if the offence was in another city or in another province.

The government's Bill C-65 avoids the situation where implementation of driving prohibitions for repeat offences would be uneven. Moreover, there is no suggestion that there is a rash of individuals who are repeating dangerous driving and criminal negligence causing death or bodily harm offences involving street racing.

This is very different from the repeat offence situation for impaired driving that is tied to higher driving prohibitions for repeat offences. We often hear that there are constitutional issues that surround a particular proposal in a bill and, often enough, we hear comments that these expressions of concern are not well-founded.

Hon. members will be happy to hear that we do not see any constitutional problem with the fact that Bill C-65 addresses street racing, while at the same time, some provinces have provincial highway traffic legislation on street racing.

In some matters there can be a federal and a provincial head of constitutional legislative power under which each level of government may validly enact legislation in the same subject area. In this matter of street racing, the provincial legislator has constitutional legislative authority and may enact highway traffic and driver licensing legislation against street racing. At the same time, Parliament may also enact legislation against street racing, using its constitutional authority for criminal law.

On another note, there may be some hon. members present who will criticize the government's Bill C-65 for not altering the period of imprisonment that is available where there is street racing within one of the four listed offences. In this regard, I know that dangerous driving causing bodily harm and criminal negligence causing bodily harm presently carry a maximum period of imprisonment of 10 years. This is the same maximum period of imprisonment that exists for impaired driving causing bodily harm.

I would also like to mention that the maximum penalty for dangerous driving causing death is 14 years. I note that the maximum period of imprisonment for criminal negligence causing death is life imprisonment, and this equals the maximum penalty for dangerous driving during a police chase that causes death, impaired driving causing death, criminal negligence causing death and manslaughter. None of these offences carry a minimum period of imprisonment.

In passing, I would note that the late Mr. Cadman's private member's Bill C-230 also did not propose any such minimum period of incarceration. In this regard, I want to make the observation that judges are required by law to set a fit and proper sentence, taking into consideration all the circumstances of the offence and the offender, and all aggravating and mitigating factors. In Canada, either the defence or the prosecution may appeal the sentence if they believe the sentence is unfit or unfair.

Again, the late Mr. Cadman limited his private member's bill to matters relating to the driving prohibitions and proposed no new offences and the government's Bill C-65 also takes this approach. The government continues to believe that given the wide variety of circumstances that can accompany any offence, judges must have a broad range from within which to select a sentence and this extends to the driving prohibition.

In closing, I want to invite other members to support Bill C-65 which has taken its inspiration from the work of the late Mr. Cadman in his private member's Bill C-230. I believe the government bill does answer principled objections and key practical problems with the private member's bill.

The government bill, like Bill C-230, speaks to the aggravating factor of street racing and the mandatory driving prohibitions that should apply when street racing accompanies the offences of dangerous driving causing bodily harm, dangerous driving causing death, criminal negligence causing bodily harm, and criminal negligence causing death.

Bill C-65 should be supported. It is a step in the right direction toward improving safety on our streets and improving the safety of our communities.

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3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Joy Smith Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Mr. Speaker, I noticed that when each member on the opposite side of the House stands up, they use Chuck Cadman's name saying that this legislation is based on his bill. Yet, in a letter to the editor Dane Minor, who was Chuck Cadman's campaign manager and very close friend, and who knew Mr. Cadman very well, said:

This isn't Chuck's bill in either intent or design. It is a cynical attempt by the Liberals to use Chuck's good name while doing little or nothing to change the existing laws.

If the Liberals truly want to honour Chuck Cadman, I suggest they pass his laws as written and actually give the police resources to find out how many previous offences there were. If they don't have the courage to do that, at least have the decency to stop using his name in a self-serving bid to gain political points.

This is what this is all about. A deal was made to honour Chuck Cadman. He gave all sorts of intelligent arguments that were well researched and that spanned over a decade to make things right in criminal law.

Why was Chuck Cadman's private member's bill not only supported by the Liberal government but now when the Liberals have an opportunity, why do they not take his advice? Why did they not honour his name by ensuring that his research and objectives were put into Bill C-65 instead of being watered down the way it is?

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3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member has been involved in this debate today and it is an important issue for all of us. Bill C-65 is always going to be referred to as Chuck Cadman's bill. The member knows that many times when private member's bills are introduced in the House, those bills are not workable and not passed into law for a variety of reasons.

We have taken the core and principles in Mr. Cadman's Bill C-230 and moulded it and turned it around into something that is not going to have a problem getting passed here in the House and will become law in his memory. Bills are not always going to be exactly the way that the opposition might want them to be, but as the government, we have a responsibility to ensure that they meet all of the constitutional requirements, whether we like them or not, in order to form the law of the land.

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3:40 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Mr. Speaker, I have been sitting here today and I am getting a little tired of hearing the arguments that this is a charter of rights issue in some way, shape or form. I do not think those arguments have any validity.

I am also getting a little disturbed by the fact that the Liberals seem to be continuing to play on the fact that they want to use Chuck's name on this bill. I do not think he would be happy, and obviously his family is not happy with the content of the bill. A number of amendments would have to be made before it would be acceptable to either his family or those of us who worked with him in the past.

As Dane Minor's letter said, if the Liberals want to honour Chuck's memory, then there are a couple of things they need to do. They need to pass his laws as he intended them to be written and passed. The Liberals also need to begin to provide the police with the resources to do their job. It is not good enough that they pass a law of some shape, which they are going to try to do here. They are going to leave the police without the resources they need to carry this out anyway.

I am getting a bit disturbed by what I have been hearing from the other side. The Liberals continue to bring Chuck's memory and legacy into this when this is not what his family wants. It is starting to look more like Dane Minor said, “a self-serving bid to gain political points”. I wish the government would pull back from that, take a look at the intent of what Mr. Cadman wanted to do, and take another run at this and do it right.

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3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON

Mr. Speaker, I think it is important to pass Bill C-65 because it mirrors Bill C-230 to an extent that is passable. If we could not pass everything that Mr. Cadman wanted, I think he would at least appreciate the fact that we have taken what we feel was his principal position and ensure that it is going to be passed as something that will be on the books of the Government of Canada forever.

Overall, we have to remember that at the core of this is how we can improve safety on the streets. The member talked about ensuring that the police have the resources to enforce the laws. Clearly, we all have to work together to find that. We are working with the provinces, the municipalities and all the law enforcement agencies. It is not simply a Government of Canada responsibility. It takes all of us as legislators and on all sides of the House to ensure that we are bringing legislation and laws into place that can be enforced and that will stand up to the challenges, as well as working together on what other needs are necessary in the law enforcement package.

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3:45 p.m.

Conservative

James Lunney Conservative Nanaimo—Alberni, BC

Mr. Speaker, frankly, I find that response disturbing. Just to paraphrase, she said that she thought Mr. Cadman would prefer that we took the notion that was in his bill, and we took what we could out of it and we turned it into something else.

I find that quite disturbing because Mr. Cadman was very concerned about these issues. These issues are what motivated him to run for office and come to the House. He wanted real change. What we have coming back is smoke and mirrors. It takes the names of the issues that he addressed but it completely neuters them by providing loopholes big enough that a judge has all kinds of latitude in providing any kind of sentencing.

When we talk about mandatory sentences being lifelong, not mandatory but they could be as long as that, it is meaningless unless there are minimum sentences. Chuck's bill was very specific about having minimum consequences that were real consequences and measurable consequences, not maybe consequences. He called for mandatory minimum sentences. He called for mandatory prohibitions and those prohibitions and consequences got more severe for repeat offenders.

I know Chuck's family is not happy with Chuck's name being attached to this. They are not happy with the substitute that the governing party has put in Mr. Cadman's name. His former campaign manager who knew him very well and knew his heart on these issues has called this a misrepresentation of Chuck's intent on these issues.

I think many of us on this side, who have seen over and over again the failed action on child pornography, the failed action on age of consent and the failed action on the gun registry that purports to take away duck hunters' and recreational hunters' rights instead of clamping down on the criminals who break the law, are upset, as are many other people, and members of Mr. Cadman's family have indicated their displeasure.

I do not know what it is about this issue that our Liberal colleagues do not understand when they take the name of an issue and then come up with a completely different strategy that gives a fuzz to it that is not a specific response. What is it about this that our colleagues fail to understand?

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October 18th, 2005 / 3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON

Mr. Speaker, as it was, Bill C-230 had some very specific problems. At the end of the day we wanted to see something passed and some changes made on the issue of street racing. I think many of us have read newspaper reports of some of the incidents that have happened when a bunch of young people got together.

As a city councillor, I dealt with this issue briefly. I had to put various things into certain areas to prohibit people from street racing because they would get in there on the weekends and ultimately there would end up being some young person dead as a result of street racing.

I think it was an extremely important issue for others in the House. Those of us who have spent some time on the issue know that we need to do whatever we can to discourage it. I think the kind of penalties we have in the bill are fairly severe. For the most part we are talking about young persons who are involved in street racing. We have to make sure the penalties are there. We want to make sure we advertise them so that when they go into street racing they know what could possibly happen and that they will take the consequences into mind. I think the consequences are fairly significant.

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3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

Mr. Speaker, I listened closely to some of the debate that went on before my opportunity to speak . I am very pleased to have the opportunity today to address Bill C-65 as the justice critic for the official opposition.

I had the extraordinary privilege of working with Chuck Cadman over the years when he was here in Parliament. He was the vice-chair of the justice committee. He was, I might say, a seemingly ordinary man and yet he achieved extraordinary results and extraordinary outcomes in his life. He took a very severe personal tragedy in his life and made it into something positive. When I look at his work, at his speeches and at what he attempted to accomplish, he never lost sight of why he went into politics and why he wanted to see substantive changes to our criminal justice system.

Today we heard from the Ontario chiefs of police and other senior officers that the Liberal government's policies are obstructing the apprehension of criminals and that red tape and bureaucracy, as a result of the Liberal government's policies, are strangling the criminal justice system.

When I listened today to the Ontario chiefs of police and other senior officers, I was reminded of many of the things that Chuck said about the justice system and about his frustration with the failure to make things happen, things we knew should happen and yet the government consistently opposed his efforts during the course of his career here in Parliament.

This bill purports to be an incarnation of one of Mr. Cadman's previous private member's bills. This was something that Mr. Cadman had been trying to get the government to do during the course of the time he was here. Unfortunately, the government consistently denied Mr. Cadman the ability to get his private member's bill through the House. Did the Liberals ever sit down with him and say that if he were to make this change or that change that they would consider it? No. They consistently opposed the very basic principle that Mr. Cadman brought forward in his bill.

Now today we hear members on the Liberal side saying that there were problems because of the increasing mandatory prohibitions dependent upon subsequent convictions.

Now that was not their approach when Mr. Cadman was bringing this matter forward. What were they saying at that time when Mr. Cadman brought this matter forward? They fundamentally opposed the idea of mandatory prohibition for driving, period, not simply mandatory prohibitions when there were subsequent offences or increased mandatory prohibitions when there were subsequent offences. They, as a principle, opposed mandatory prohibition for driving when people were involved in street racing.

Now, after having dragged their heels throughout the course of Mr. Cadman's career here, they are somehow coming back and saying that they are listening and they are putting into effect what Mr. Cadman wanted, when everyone knows, especially those who were close to Mr. Cadman, such as his prior campaign manager, that this is not what Mr. Cadman wanted .

What everyone close to Chuck understands is that this is being done for obviously political reasons for bringing forward a pale imitation of what Mr. Cadman wanted.

From the onset, I would like to state that the proposed bill is flawed. People continue to suffer from the consequences of street racing while the government has dithered.

Mr. Cadman's bills were originally tabled to address the rise in street racing throughout the 1990s which resulted in grievous injuries and the loss of life both by the perpetrators of the act and the innocent bystanders who were mowed down by these flying vehicles.

While death from street racing represents only a fraction of the annual carnage on Canada's roads, police suggest that the practice of taking to urban streets to race is becoming increasingly more dangerous and increasingly more prevalent. Certainly, in the capital city of Manitoba, Winnipeg, where I used to reside, that has become a serious concern to police officers.

A recent study in the United States found that of nearly 150,000 fatal crashes over four years, 315, or less than 1%, were known to involve street racing and 399 fatalities occurred. These numbers, of course, are always difficult to justify as the maximum. Certainly, when police make these estimates, this is the minimum that they can determine. It is often difficult to prove that actual street racing has occurred and a much higher rate of these fatal crashes, it is quite apparent, occurred as a result of high speed driving.

It is important to note that the destruction caused by street racing is blind. It has a detrimental effect on all Canadian citizens. It does not discriminate. We have seen recent cases of injury resulting from street racing from the west coast in Vancouver across Canada to Winnipeg, Toronto and Sackville, Nova Scotia. I am sure I have left out many communities in that quick trip across Canada but I can tell all hon. members that these are not out of the ordinary any more, as young criminals understand that when they now race away from police, for example, often the police simply give up the chase because police officers do not want to endanger lives any more. Often, because these cars are stolen, it is very difficult to track down the perpetrators.

It must be that when they are actually caught, the sentence must have such a deterrent effect that offenders simply will not use this kind of avenue of escape knowing that the consequences are severe. This bill falls short of the consequence that is necessary to deter individuals.

In the province of Manitoba, a 39-year-old woman named Linda Rudnicki had gone to buy milk when a street racer slammed into her car. Her death the following day on June 6 of this year has led to stricter enforcement and tougher penalties for street racing.

I want to thank my colleague from the provincial Progressive Conservative Party, Kelvin Goertzen, the MLA in Steinback who has been very strong in advocating for stiffer penalties. He is the justice critic for the provincial Progressive Conservative Party in Manitoba. I want to commend him for his strong stand on this and for continuing to tell his government that these penalties need to be enforced.

I also want to compliment my colleague from Kildonan—St. Paul who has done admirable work in this area, as well as my colleague from Charleswood who has also worked very hard in respect of this matter. They have called for stricter enforcement and tougher penalties for street racing. Where was the government for Linda Rudnicki when that racer slammed into her vehicle?

On August 25 of this year an elderly woman in Winnipeg was crossing a street in the evening and she was struck by a vehicle. She was rushed to hospital but succumbed to her injuries. Witnesses say that two vehicles were street racing when the woman was hit. Where was the government for this senior citizen?

The government was nowhere to be seen when Chuck Cadman first brought his bill to Parliament. In fact, it did everything it could to kill his private member's initiative because it fundamentally opposed the principle that Chuck was bringing forward in his bill, fundamentally opposed the principle of mandatory prohibition, and that needs to be emphasized. Maybe Winnipeg is too small a town for the government to take notice.

I would like to quote Sergeant Devin Kealey of the Toronto Police Service, who stated:

At least two to four deaths in Toronto each summer can be pinned on street racing. In many other cases, speed is known to be a factor in a crash but there's no way to prove racing was involved.

Toronto area police project ERASE indicates that at least 29 people have lost their lives to street racing in the Toronto area in the last six years. Where was the government for those people when Chuck Cadman brought his private member's bill forward and the government consistently refused to support his initiative? Where was the government when Mr. Cadman called for action in 2002 and the ensuing years to tackle street racing? The government was not only dithering on the proposed legislation by Mr. Cadman, it was fundamentally opposed to the principles set out in that legislation.

I have been talking about the government's response, but it is important to note the government's earlier response to the proposed legislation.

Mr. Cadman had hoped that street racing would be considered an aggravating circumstance for the purpose of sentencing a person convicted of an offence committed by means of a motor vehicle under various sections of the Criminal Code that resulted in death or bodily harm. Mr. Cadman also advocated for mandatory driving prohibitions which increased in severity for repeat offenders.

I want to quote what the previous justice minister, Martin Cauchon, said when Chuck Cadman brought this forward on why he rejected the proposed Cadman legislation. This is what he said:

Your proposed bill would result in a mandatory driving prohibition.

At least the minister got that right. He continued:

As you are aware, the Canadian criminal justice system is premised on the notion that sentences should be individualized for each offender... Research indicates that mandatory minimum penalties do not work from the point of general deterrence and recidivism.

We know that that statement is false. There is no truth to that statement. It is a philosophical position of the Liberals stating that mandatory penalties do not work. This is repeated by Mr. Cauchon. It is repeated by the current justice minister. Quite frankly, it is not an accurate fact.

This is the real reason the Liberals oppose doing what Mr. Cadman wanted to do. It has nothing to do with constitutionality or legality. It is that they are fundamentally opposed to the concept of mandatory minimum sentences, whether it is prohibition or prison. The excuse I have heard is that it is going to be too difficult for a prosecutor to find out whether someone has been convicted of an offence where there was an aggravating circumstance of street racing.

For years the government has been passing laws that only complicate police officers' lives and judges' work. Take a look at the Youth Criminal Justice Act. It is an utter failure. It is so complex and cumbersome that it is simply unenforceable.

Now the Liberals are talking about this provision, saying that it is too difficult for them to go back into the transcripts, the official court documents, and determine whether street racing was or was not involved. If it is too difficult, obviously the crown attorneys cannot do it and they will not be able to do it, but let us let them try. I am willing to bet that police officers will make that effort and crown attorneys will make that effort to find out, and I speak as a former crown attorney, and get that higher conviction involved as an aggravating circumstance and therefore get a higher prohibition of driving.

We have done it in terms of impaired driving offences. We have done it in terms of any number of offences where there has been a second or subsequent offence. Yes, it takes a little bit of work sometimes to go to local records to find out whether or not the conviction was for a particular matter and to go into the court transcripts to determine whether or not it was an aggravating factor, but to suggest that we are not going to do it because it is too difficult is wrong.

That is not why the Liberals are doing it. They are doing it because as justice minister Cauchon said, they are fundamentally opposed to the idea of mandatory prohibitions for anything. They would rather see hardened criminals, such as sex offenders and others, get conditional sentences and house arrest and be turned back on to the street. That might be easy for the Liberals, but it is not easy on the families of the victims who have been killed by individuals involved in street racing, by individuals who have been killed or injured in other circumstances.

The Liberals have the audacity to stand and say in the House that we are not going to do what Chuck Cadman wanted to do because it is too difficult. The Liberals are not the individuals who will do the prosecuting. They are not the individuals who will do the actual investigation. The attorneys general of the provinces will do it and if it is in the Criminal Code, they will do it. If it cannot be done, there is no penalty, but at least give them the opportunity. At least give them the tool to do what Mr. Cadman wanted the House to do. To come back now and say that it is too difficult to do is a slap in the face of the work of a hard-working parliamentarian.

Furthermore, I would like to quote the current Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice who said that unless there is some compelling reason to specify that certain circumstances are aggravating, it is better not to multiply the instances where the Criminal Code spells out a particular way of committing the offence will be an aggravating factor. He said that in his view, they are not seeing any such reason emerging from the decisions of the trial courts and the appeal courts with regard to the four offences when street racing is a part of the circumstances of these offences.

It is not simply past ministers of justice, it is the current government and the parliamentary secretary who are fundamentally and philosophically opposed to what Mr. Cadman was trying to do. Now the Liberals are trying to come up with the excuse that it is going to be too hard for crown attorneys to actually dig through court transcripts and find out whether there was an aggravating factor, that it is going to be too hard for police officers to do the investigation.

Those comments are simply not acceptable, given the difficulties the government has put police officers and crown attorneys through as a result of the Liberals' obstructing, and this is what the police chiefs said today, the detaining of criminals and strangling our criminal justice system with red tape and bureaucracy. That is what the government is all about. It has nothing to do with difficulty.

If it had anything to do with difficulty in terms of convicting criminals, the Liberals would do it. The more difficult it is to convict a criminal, the government has consistently shown that is what it will do. It has nothing to do with constitutional requirements, the presumption of innocence, or the freedom to not self-incriminate. It has everything to do with the government being philosophically opposed to the basic principles set out in the legislation. For the Liberals to come here and say they are only trying to improve what Mr. Cadman failed to do is an insult not just to Mr. Cadman but to this entire House.

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4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Joy Smith Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Mr. Speaker, my colleague's speech was a very hopeful one. His speech will give hope to Canadians that Conservative members on this side of the House are standing up for Canada, for Canadians and are not putting forward any phony bills that will not really solve the problem.

One thing the member for Provencher said which really stood out was that we on this side of the House are philosophically different from the Liberals when it comes to justice issues.

We have seen the Youth Criminal Justice Act emerge since the Liberal government came to power. That act has absolutely nothing to it. Canadians all across the country laugh at the act because it neutralizes anything that teachers, parents, police officers or community members want to address in terms of our youth and the criminal acts that occur.

We saw the denial by members across the way who did not support the raising of the age of sexual consent from 14 to 16 years in order to protect youth from sexual predators. The Liberals voted against that bill.

More and more as we listen to members on the other side, I think it is a travesty to use Mr. Cadman's name and not use his expertise. We have heard over and over what an honourable man Mr. Cadman was. We have heard that he was a man who really had a purpose in terms of trying to make things right when it came to the Youth Criminal Justice Act. When it came to attacking any kinds of criminal acts on the street he was a real champion.

I would like the member for Provencher to expand on the philosophical difference between our party and the current government and how that philosophical difference over a decade has eroded the criminal justice system here in Canada.

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4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

Mr. Speaker, I can give the member one specific example. It is a matter that is near and dear to her heart, and that is the failure of the Youth Criminal Justice Act to provide responsibility and accountability to those offenders who in fact have breached the law.

In the Youth Criminal Justice Act we see a trend by the government to separate the parent from the child. I think we see it in many other circumstances with the government, but we see the destruction of that relationship. In order to ensure that a child remains on the straight and narrow, it is so important to keep the influence of the family on that child.

I recall when I was prosecuting under the old Juvenile Delinquents Act, we could not prosecute a case unless one of the parents was in court. The parents had to appear in court. They had to explain sometimes why their child was involved in the criminal acts.

Now the parent has no say at all under the Youth Criminal Justice Act. In fact, the only one who has a say in the child's well-being is the lawyer. That is to whom the judge looks and says that whether or not the parents agree with this course of action, it is the lawyer who determines what is in the best interests of the child. That is specifically in the youth criminal justice jurisprudence.

I have had conversations with many parents who have stated, “I wanted my child to go in and accept responsibility so that we can get this past us and work with this problem”. In fact, the lawyer said, “They will never be able to prove it and we'll get this young offender off”.

We believe that the family should be involved in the justice system and in helping a young individual. Instead of creating a legal barrier between a parent and child, we want to reconnect the two so that there can be accountability, responsibility and in fact ensure that the child is on the proper path.

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4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Myron Thompson Conservative Wild Rose, AB

Mr. Speaker, I too want to commend the hon. member for Provencher for his excellent speech. I have been here since 1993 and have seen a number of the very same philosophical views applied to certain pieces of legislation, which the member talked about with regard to this particular bill.

I know what Chuck Cadman was after. We sat on the justice committee together from 1997 on, during many days. I knew what he was after and I think he got it right, but I have seen this government turn it down. It had no intention of supporting that bill. Then the government members dare to come back to the House and say that in honour of him they are presenting this bill today. It is a far cry from what this honourable man wanted to see done in this place.

My biggest fear, from what I have seen over the years, is about the number of issues that have been approved by this House of Commons. I think it is worse now with a minority government. Maybe those issues were not approved with the Liberals' consent, but the majority of members approved many pieces of legislation. I think of the hepatitis C people. It has been decided by the House of Commons that all of them are going to be compensated, but it is not happening.

In fact, I have a list of about 14 different bills and motions that are supposed to be enacted. They have gone through committee and are lying dormant. Where is Bill C-2, the child exploitation act? Why has it not been enacted? I understood that it was approved quite some time ago.

Why is it that we put up with a government in charge of this country that sits on its duff day after day and does not enact things that this body of people has approved? This is the Government of Canada that has decided these things must happen, and we have a government that sits on them and does not implement them.

Does the hon. member have any comment in regard to what I have said? It is really aggravating me that we have a place that does not adhere to what we decide.

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4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

Mr. Speaker, I can sense the frustration of the member for Wild Rose. I know that he has worked very hard on the justice committee and on many issues, especially on issues affecting children. He was a school principal in his prior life, so to speak, and has a burning desire to help children; I think that is why the member for Wild Rose is here today.

The issue he brings forward about the fact that the government has not declared Bill C-2 just goes to prove my point exactly. The reason the government has not put this into effect, at least not that I have heard unless it has been done very recently, is that the government opposes mandatory minimum sentences.

In that law, Bill C-2, the Conservative Party was instrumental in getting bare bones minimum prison sentences in place. The prison sentences were very short, but the reason the Conservative Party agreed to it is that when there is a mandatory minimum prison sentence, even if it is one day, the possibility of house arrest is excluded. We did not think that sex offenders should have house arrest for their offences, especially those offenders who abuse our children.

Therefore, I suggest, the reason that the government has not yet enacted the bill is that it is fundamentally opposed to the idea of mandatory prison sentences, and that goes right back to this particular bill, Bill C-65. The government is opposed to it and is simply putting up this smokescreen, clothing it in legalese that makes it look familiar but has nothing to do with what Mr. Cadman wanted done.

I would say that if this government is concerned about Bill C-2 and mandatory minimum prison sentences, why did it not do something about it? In fact, the government supported us because it had to do; it was put in a corner. That goes to show that the government will do it when it is politically expedient to do it.

That is why the government is coming up with this bill. It has nothing to do with the principles that Mr. Cadman advocated, because those principles simply are not there. At best, they are watered down. The government will do it in legislation. It will move ahead when it has to or when it is politically expedient. Otherwise, it remains philosophically opposed to these important justice principles.

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4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Dave Batters Conservative Palliser, SK

Mr. Speaker, it is indeed a great honour to have the opportunity to speak today on this issue of great public importance for people throughout Canada and certainly in my riding of Palliser.

I, too, would like to commend members of my party, the members for Provencher, Wild Rose and Kildonan—St. Paul, for their excellent work. I could go on and on, as there is also the member for Cypress Hills—Grasslands and there are the countless members on this side of the House who are trying to do the right thing and constantly striving to force the government to get tough on crime.

I join all my colleagues on this side of the House in addressing Bill C-65, which we consider a watered down version of the private member's bill submitted by the late Mr. Chuck Cadman. His efforts to protect Canadians from the deadly act of street racing, along with his efforts at cracking down on those who repeatedly offend, should be commended. The Conservative Party has consistently supported his efforts.

Bill C-65 addresses what has become an increasing problem throughout Canada and certainly on streets such as Albert Street in Regina and Main Street in Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan. It addresses the specific act of street racing as an aggravating factor during sentencing.

On July 21, 2005, Statistics Canada released its 2004 crime statistics, showing that my home province of Saskatchewan has the highest per capita crime rate of any Canadian province. Clearly this needs to be addressed and changed.

Mr. Speaker, I should mention that I am splitting my time today with the member for Regina—Qu'Appelle, who is also a strong advocate for getting tough on crime.

Bill C-65 refers to four criminal offences that can be caused by street racing: criminal negligence causing death; dangerous operation of a motor vehicle causing death; criminal negligence involving bodily harm; and dangerous operation of a motor vehicle causing bodily harm.

Unfortunately, this bill falls short of getting tough on these crimes by falling short of getting tough on repeat offenders. That was a key component of Mr. Cadman's bill.

It is imperative that as elected members we work as Mr. Cadman did to protect Canadians from this violent crime.

In preparing for this speech today I did a quick Google search to see what interesting facts might appear on the issue of street racing in Canada. I was frightened and disconcerted when I encountered a Canadian website geared toward video games. It was a review of a game called “Street Racing Syndicate”. Video game players are told they can “race up the ranks of street credibility to fame, money and women”. This is just shameful.

In this day and age of extreme sport, it is necessary for these offenders, those who street race, those who choose to get behind that wheel, to be penalized for endangering our citizens. It is necessary for them to suffer consequences. Street racing clearly is not a game.

In Bill C-338, introduced originally in December 2002, Mr. Cadman included a clause dealing with repeat offenders. The clause amended section 259 of the Criminal Code, “Mandatory order of prohibition”, to get tough on repeat offenders and was an essential aspect of his bill.

Getting tough on repeat street racing offenders whose actions result in tragedies was dealt with in paragraph 259.1(1)(b) of his bill, which states that “for a second or subsequent offence, if one of the offences is an offence under section 220” of the Criminal Code, which is criminal negligence causing death, “or subsection 249(4)”, dangerous operation of a motor vehicle causing death, “for life”, which means that there would be a lifetime prohibition from driving.

Certainly that is something that would be supported if a repeat offender street racer causes such tragedy for the innocent people in our society and for their families.

Bill C-65 is a neutered version of Mr. Cadman's bill. Sentences for these offences under Bill C-65 include a mandatory prohibition on driving, ranging from one year to a maximum of 10 years, a suspended licence. What about minimum sentences for repeat offenders whose actions result in these terrible tragedies?

In his speech of March 10, 2004, Mr. Cadman referred to an incident involving an 18 year old who earlier that month had crashed into a bus shelter, critically injuring an innocent bystander. The offender had already lost his licence. His licence had already been suspended twice, but he was again behind the wheel of a car.

These offenders know that there is little punishment for their crimes. Having their driver's licence suspended does not stop them from driving dangerously. That is why minimum prison sentences are also required, I believe, given the tragedies that have happened to the innocent victims and their families as a result of street racing, a very serious crime.

As members of Parliament we are required to stand up and do something for our communities to protect Canadians. As a member of the Conservative caucus, I am pleased that we are fighting to see mandatory minimum sentences for violent and repeat offenders. I am pleased that a Conservative task force on safe streets and healthy communities has been struck to work with victims of crime, front line law officers and community workers.

In an article in the Ottawa Citizen in September of this year, the Minister of Justice was quoted as saying in reference to Mr. Cadman that “we are going to build on his private-member's bills so that when we introduce them it will reflect his concerns and his legacy”.

I would say that Bill C-65 as it is fails to reflect the legacy of Mr. Cadman. It is for this reason that, without amendments and without getting tough on repeat offenders, we will oppose the bill.

The Liberal government's approach of being lax on crime and not getting tough on crime in our society really should not come as a big surprise. I think that many members on this side of the House, many members opposite as well and the vast majority of Canadians feel that the gun registry is a colossal failure. It has cost the Canadian taxpayers $2 billion and has not prevented a single crime or saved a single life.

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4:25 p.m.

An hon. member

That's right.

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4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Dave Batters Conservative Palliser, SK

I hear my colleague from Yorkton—Melville agreeing with me. I want to commend him on the great work that he has done to stand up against this useless gun registry and to stand up for putting those resources into front line policing where they can actually help eliminate or cut down on crime in our society instead of having this useless registry.

The member for Kildonan—St. Paul alluded to the fact that the Youth Criminal Justice Act in this country is a joke. I could not agree with her more. This country's young offenders do not fear the consequences of their actions. I believe they need to have five separate charges before there might actually be consequences for their actions. This is just unacceptable.

Let me turn to an issue that is very near and dear to my heart and should be near and dear to the hearts of everyone in this chamber. That issue is the policy toward drugs and drug use in our society, which is of great concern to families, parents and all Canadians.

On many occasions I have pushed the government to reschedule crystal meth, to change it from a schedule 3 to a schedule 1 drug, and to toughen the penalties on crystal meth. This summer the Minister of Justice actually made that change after being forced to. Everyone was in unison on that. The only people who disagreed were the crystal meth traffickers.

However, it still troubles me a great deal today. I saw a recent statement from Larry Campbell, the Prime Minister's most recent appointment to the Senate. I will quote Mr. Campbell. He said that seeing crystal meth addiction as an epidemic is exaggerated and a knee-jerk reaction. “This idea that there's a huge crystal meth disaster happening in this country is garbage,” he said. Mr. Campbell said this at a forum on the city's plan to prevent drug use. Mr. Campbell said that paranoia is feeding into some calls to restrict sales of cold medicine, an ingredient in the making of crystal meth.

This is unbelievable. Everyone in the country now appreciates the threat that crystal meth poses. This is the Prime Minister's most recent appointment. Perhaps the Prime Minister agrees with Senator Larry Campbell's assessment of the threat of crystal meth. It is unbelievable. It is another sign of the government's slack policy on getting tough on crystal meth traffickers. We furthermore know that the government wants to decriminalize marijuana.

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4:30 p.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Mr. Speaker, my colleague from Palliser opened his remarks by paying tribute to Mr. Chuck Cadman, the former member of Parliament who championed this issue. I concur with his remarks on behalf of the people of the riding of Winnipeg Centre. The issues of street racing, crime and safety are key and paramount. They are on the top of the minds of the people whom I represent. I find that I concur with many of his remarks.

I did a survey among the people in my riding last year. I asked them what the most paramount issue was facing them and their families. It was not health care. It was not tax cuts. It was not post-secondary education. It was not even the price of gasoline. Overwhelmingly, by a factor of four to one, it was crime and safety on our streets.

One of their issues is the street racing that we see up and down Portage Avenue and up into the neighbourhoods of my colleague from Kildonan. Every Sunday night cars are ripping up and down the streets with reckless abandon. We have not given the police the tools necessary to do their jobs. We have erred on the side of the rights of the criminal too many times in this regard.

On behalf of the people of the riding of Winnipeg Centre, I would like to acknowledge the points that they have raised with me, that crime and safety on their streets is their number one concern. As their member of Parliament, I intend to make it my number one concern. We are not going to be bleeding hearts about the rights of some punk to tear up our streets with a stolen car. In fact, we are going to give the police the tools they need to stop that practice and make our streets safe again. I concur with many of my colleague's remarks.

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4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Dave Batters Conservative Palliser, SK

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the remarks of the member for Winnipeg Centre. He is exactly right. Crime and safety on our streets is a major concern to people in Palliser, Moose Jaw, Regina, Winnipeg and throughout the country. That is why this party, under the leader of the official opposition, struck a committee for safe streets and healthy communities to see how best we can move these goals and initiatives forward.

I respectfully say that I would like to see the voting record of the member for Winnipeg Centre on the gun registry. From his comments, I would hope he is strongly against the gun registry, realizing that those resources could have been better spent on taking firm action to get tough on crime in our society. The $2 billion wasted by the Liberal government could have been redirected and used better.

I would also like to know the member's voting record on mandatory minimum sentences. The government continually allows our judiciary to give conditional sentences for very serious offences. The member for Provencher indicated that sex offenders in our society are getting house arrest. This is unbelievable and it is intolerable to the people of Moose Jaw, Regina, Rouleau, Avonlea, the great constituency of Palliser and throughout the country. Canadians are fed up.

These justice issues are a big reason why many of us have come to Parliament. I hope that the government and the Minister of Justice hear our pleas to finally get tough on crime. Canadians are thinking to themselves that the government has had 12 years to make these changes, and maybe they will never happen under the government. Canadians are looking for the alternative. They cannot wait for the leader of the official opposition and the Conservative caucus, and what will be a much bigger Conservative team following the next election, to make some major changes in terms of justice. Sex offenders certainly would not get conditional sentences. In terms of white collar crime, someone like Mr. Coffin who stole $1.5 million would not get a sentence of home by 9 o'clock at night on week nights alone. This is intolerable and Canadians have had enough.

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4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Scheer Conservative Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to speak to the bill and to follow my colleague from Palliser. I know his commitment to fixing the problems in our criminal justice system is probably second to none, certainly in this House. I congratulate him on his fine analysis of the problems with the bill.

I want to begin my discussions on the bill by framing the Liberal strategy with crime prevention in general. Whenever the Liberals put forward a bill where they pretend they are going to make our communities safe or that they are going to protect Canadians from criminal elements, we have to remember where their priorities are.

I have had many of my constituents tell me that they do not consider it a justice system any more. It is more like an injustice system. It is referred to more as a legal system because that is where the focus is. It is not on enacting justice on those who do wrong in our society.

Let us remember where the number one focus of the Liberal government is in terms of crime prevention strategy, and that is the $2 billion gun registry. Members heard a few of our speeches today refer to this. It is one of the most horrendous wastes of public money in Canadian history.

It is difficult to talk about the gun registry in under 10 minutes. There is really nothing right with it. Everything about it is wrong. The Liberals have pumped $2 billion into a big black hole that has not prevented a single crime or solved a single murder.

Let us take a look at who would actually register guns. Farmers, hunters and sports shooters, being honest Canadians, want to comply with the law. Therefore, they register their guns. They know the waste involved and they understand that it is a violation of their rights, but they are honest Canadians and they do not want to break the law.

However, people who are going to commit a crime, especially one with a firearm, are not concerned about violating registration requirements. Drug dealers who have smuggled drugs into the country, who sell them on the streets, who decide to get involved in some kind of gang warfare, kill their competitors and move in on their turf will not stop and think about registering their guns first so they can abide by Bill C-68. We know they do not do that. Registration is useless. The best way to keep criminals from using guns illegally is to keep criminals in jail longer. That is the simplest way to do it.

All the money wasted on the registry could have been put toward front line police services. That money could save lives. According to the gun registry, the money may have created some bureaucrat jobs. It may have funnelled money through to Liberal-friendly firms. However, it has not saved any lives. That $2 billion put into front line resources and into investigative resources is where we can save lives in a crime prevention strategy.

The bill deals with street racing. It is part of a package that the Liberals have introduced to deal with crimes related to cars. They also have one on the order paper dealing with tampering with vehicle identification numbers of stolen cars. These kinds of issues are very important to me. Car thefts are such a serious problem in Regina and, moreover, in the province of Saskatchewan.

The Conservative Party understands that to have one's car stolen is a serious breach of one's personal security and a violation of one's personal property. Someone's car is a vital part of someone's life. For many families, it is the only way that they can get to and from work. For students who cannot afford to live close to universities, it is the only way that they can get to school. It is a huge quality of life issue.

When someone's car is stolen, it throws one's life into turmoil. It affects insurance premiums. Car thefts cost the government and consumers over $1 billion annually. This is felt most harshly in the form of higher insurance premiums. When premiums go up, it is a severe hardship for most working Canadians, especially for people living on fixed incomes. It affects their quality of life. Therefore, politicians should treat the theft of an automobile as a very serious crime.

However, the Liberals and the NDP just do not get it. They voted against every attempt on the part of the Conservative Party to enact tough minimum sentences for car thieves. I do not understand that. How many times do people have to steal cars before they are considered a threat to the community?

I absolutely understand that perhaps it is not the best idea to send a first time offender, a young person who made a mistake, to jail to make them a better criminal, which is a lot of the terminology thrown out by opponents of minimum sentencing. They say that if we send young people to jail, they will come out better criminals. They say that it is not the right thing to do for first time offences. That is where some judge's discretion can come into play.

However, my patience quickly runs out when someone is stealing their third or fourth car. Then they are no longer just young kids making mistakes. They are now car thieves and they need to be in jail. They need to be away from people's cars for long periods of time. Each time they steal a car, that period of time needs to be longer and longer.

It is easy not to steal cars. Yet the government continues to have a revolving door policy for repeat offenders. We are putting our friends and families at risk by not imposing serious consequences on repeat offenders.

However, we should not be surprised that the Liberals do not take car theft seriously. The Liberals constantly downplay the risk of allowing habitual offenders early release. When it comes to crime and other serious problems facing Canadians, the Liberals completely have their heads in the sand.

My colleague from Palliser mentioned the case of Liberal Larry Campbell, mayor of Vancouver and one of the newest Liberal senators. He does not even believe that crystal meth is a serious problem in our country. This is what he said in the Globe and Mail on Monday, October 17. He said, “This idea that there's a huge crystal meth disaster happening in this country is garbage”. He said that at a forum on the city's plan to prevent drug use.

I want every Canadian who has suffered through an addiction to crystal meth or who has had a friend or family member's life destroyed by this horrible drug to consider that statement, that crystal meth being a threat is garbage. That is a slap in the face to every Canadian who deals with the horrible impacts of crystal meth.

Despite the fact that chiefs of police around the country, provincial premiers and provincial attorneys general have all agreed unanimously that crystal meth is one of the most dangerous drugs on the streets of our nation and that we need an aggressive strategy to fight the production, distribution and consumption of this drug, the Liberals say that such talk is garbage.

Car theft is a plague to society. The Liberals think that is garbage. Crystal meth destroys people's lives. The Liberals think that is garbage. We in the Conservative Party do not think it is garbage. We think it is a horrible problem that the government needs to address immediately.

Then we come to the bill at hand and the Liberals again are pretending that they are doing something serious about crime. They are pretending that they are enacting a part of Chuck Cadman's legacy, but there are no minimum sentences in the bill. It is a far cry from what Chuck originally intended.

I only got to know Chuck very briefly. His time in this Parliament was brief and he was often unable to attend sittings of the House. The few times I was able to meet him, it was always very quickly in passing and just a brief hello. I was not here when he first started his crusade against this, but a lot of colleagues in my caucus were here. They remember the conviction and the passion that he brought to this place to fight on these kinds of issues, to fight for quality of life issues, for safer streets and safer communities.

Again, the Liberals have twisted that and have omitted any reference in the bill to minimum sentences and escalating minimum sentences for repeat offenders. They are a bit twisted on this. We heard the parliamentary secretary earlier explain that there were some minimum sentences in the Criminal Code. He said that the Liberals were doing a great job on minimum sentences. They even have a bunch of them in the Criminal Code regarding people who use guns in crimes. However, on September 27 in the House, the Liberal Minister of Justice said, “Minimum sentences have no effect. They do not deter and they result in unnecessary incapacitation and unnecessary costs to the system without protecting security”.

This is another Liberal flip-flop. On the one hand, the Liberals say that have minimum sentences, that they are fighting crime and that these are good minimum sentences. On the other hand, they say that minimum sentences do not work and that is why they are against them. The Liberals are contradicting each other day by day.

I want to tell the House something important about deterrence when it comes to minimum sentences. When we enact a tough minimum sentence for a repeat or violent offender, we are deterring the most important person in regard to that, which is the offender himself because he cannot re-offend if he is in jail. That is one of the most important reasons why we do have minimum sentences. It is not just so we provide a warning for other Canadians who may be considering doing illegal acts, although that is important. It is to keep the person away from society, away from the people he might harm and to prevent him from re-offending.

I want to tell a quick story. When I was campaigning in the last election, I visited a house in the north central part of Regina. A woman answered the door. I was struck by the fact that on every window there were bars and security measures all around the house. She opened the door only a tiny way and peered out. She had a security bolt on the door. She was afraid, in the middle of the afternoon in Regina, to open her door because of the neighbourhood she lived in.

I do not believe that law abiding Canadians should have to live behind bars. I believe criminals should have to live behind bars. That lady should be able to open her door at any time of the day.

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4:45 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

It is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the question to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment is as follows: the hon. member for New Brunswick Southwest, The Environment.

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4:45 p.m.

Etobicoke North Ontario

Liberal

Roy Cullen LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

Mr. Speaker, I noticed that members opposite had been commenting on the gun registry. I am wondering if they perhaps were omitting a number of important facts. For example, did the member opposite omit the fact that law enforcement officers are making inquiries every day to the gun registry? In fact, I wonder if the member would know that the number is 5,000 inquiries per day.

Perhaps the members opposite are implying that law enforcement officers are sitting around playing with their computers and not really doing this as a productive exercise. What I am reading from that is that law enforcement officers are finding the gun registry to be of some value.

I wonder if the member opposite and other members that have commented on the gun registry have talked about the fact that the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police wholeheartedly endorsed the gun registry and, in fact, the Canadian Professional Police Association, the rank and file police officers, also have endorsed the gun registry.

I wonder if members opposite realize that thousands of affidavits have been filed by the firearms centre to prosecute criminals and people that are illegally using handguns.

I wonder if members opposite realize that some 8,000 individuals have been denied the licensing of firearms because they are not eligible because of some problem in their past or some current problem.

I wonder why members opposite have not commented on the fact that the annual costs of the gun registry have been managed down to $15 million a year.

Perhaps Canadians would like to know these facts. The gun registry is now being managed properly and is getting results. Did members opposite forget to mention these facts to Canadians in this House today?