House of Commons Hansard #84 of the 38th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was farmers.

Topics

Canada Grain ActGovernment Orders

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Dale Johnston Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB

Madam Speaker, I see an opening. I really cannot speculate as to why the government would wait until the last day at the eleventh hour, other than to speculate perhaps that it just simply places a low priority on something like this, which is a tremendous mistake.

As I said in my comments, not only is agriculture in a financial crisis, but in the west we suffered through a drought for the last four years when we just barely got by, fortunately not so far this year. Members will recall the hay west initiative that started in this part of the country where hay was shipped out west to us. It was very unusual thing, but it was a very neighbourly gesture. It is the kind of thing one would expect a farmer to do for a farmer. We were overwhelmed by the generosity of Ontarians.

However, we are completely underwhelmed by the performance of the government when it comes to agriculture. I have been asked to speculate and I can only speculate it is because the Liberals place such a low priority on this. To put this into perspective, imagine farmers with herds of cattle and land bases. They can put up enough feed to keep the cattle through the winter and enough pasture to keep the cattle through the summer. Then they are faced with several years of drought where their feed supplies dwindle off and they should be selling off the cattle, but the cannot because there is no market for them. Can we think of a worse situation than that? I cannot think of a worse situation for any business to be in.

It is like being in the shoe business in a community of people who have no feet. That is exactly the kind of situation in which they are. There is no market and there is no feed for the cattle. Every year there are more cattle because they cannot be sold.

For some years now we have been trying to get this message across to the government that there is a crisis in agriculture because of the BSE, the low commodity prices, the drought and the high debt load. If farmers cannot sell their product, they have to borrow money. Now the banks will not loan the money.

Why has the government not dealt with this sooner? I am at a total loss as to any logical reason why it would wait so long and leave this until the last minute. The only thing I can think of is that it does not place much priority on the western Canadian farmer.

Canada Grain ActGovernment Orders

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

Madam Speaker, I would also like to add some comments to the debate. Although my profession is not out of the agriculture business, I come from a rural riding that depends heavily on various sectors of agriculture, including supply management, grain, hogs and cattle. In many ways it is a microcosm of all of Canada. My farmers are struggling because of the unsatisfactory trade mechanisms in resolving international disputes.

One thing I do not understand, and perhaps many of my constituents do not understand, it this. Whether it is grain disputes, hog disputes, or even softwood lumber disputes because I have softwood lumber in the northern part of my riding, how can we ask our farmers, our producers to put up money at the border when the disputes have dragged on for years? Although they eventually get their money back, there is no financial disincentive for those objecting to the trade from making these complaints. How can we improve this?

Canada Grain ActGovernment Orders

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Dale Johnston Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB

Madam Speaker, that certainly is a shortcoming in the whole WTO. The way it is set up now, the Americans would be foolish not to challenge our goods entering their country.

Even when we win the dispute, we do not really win the dispute. We are not properly compensated. I think that if they put up an embargo against our hogs, lumber or whatever and it goes to the tribunal, the tribunal rules in our favour, we should be in a position to apply for recompense. Otherwise, if they find in our favour over and again then it gets to the point where it appears that the challenges are frivolous and vexatious, and I think there should be some kind of a penalty attached. At the moment there is not. I think that is a true shortcoming.

Canada Grain ActGovernment Orders

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

Ken Epp Conservative Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB

Madam Speaker, I am privileged to enter this debate on behalf of farmers in our country.

A little known fact is that I grew up on a farm. That is where I learned my love of food. It is also true that the very first dollar I ever earned in my life came from the farm, which they say among young people is significant. They ask, “How did you earn your first dollar?” Well, believe it or not my first dollar was earned by taking over a shed on the farm that my dad said I could have.

We moved to a different place and when we got there, there was this one shed that had nothing but junk in it. It had old wood and old barrels. Among other things, I found a really wonderful antique clock in that shed. That started another love that I have, and that was repairing mechanical clocks. I do that to this day as much as time permits. I still have that clock. It is on the wall in my office at home. I cherish it because of what it represents.

Anyway, I got into the chicken business as a young man. I had to buy the chickens. My dad was interested in not only teaching me a worth ethic but also in making sure that I understood the principles of business. So even though I lived on a farm and the granaries were full of grain, I had to buy the grain from him. He insisted that I keep track of it. Later on when we sold the chickens in the fall, and let people make soup out of them or whatever they did, maybe even Kentucky Fried Chicken, I had to take that money and pay back the debt I had. My father helped me a great deal with that.

At the time, I sort of thought he could have just given me the wheat. However, later on I realized the wisdom that he had in teaching me the principles of business.

I should maybe tell members that in that first year, after looking after all these chickens, my net profit was $6. I will never forget that either. I took them right from the time they were wee, little, itty-bitty guys right out of the hatchery and I looked after them. I will not give the House the graphic details of some of the things that one has to do with little chicks, but sometimes, for example, they get plugged up and one has to unplug them, and I did that. Again, I look back at it now and think that maybe that was part of the preparation of my future life in politics. At any rate, the farm was just an integral part of it.

My father loved farming. He started farming in 1935, when things were really tough in Saskatchewan. There were some really rough years. I remember when I was born, well I do not remember the day I was born, but shortly after, that we were exceptionally poor, but we did not know it because we were so happy. We lived in a wonderful, loving family, with extended family around as well, grandparents and so on. We all stuck together. Even though we did not have money, we had everything else that one would need in life. One of the things that a farm provides is the ability to produce food for the farm family as well. We butchered our own chickens and slaughtered our own animals, and we dressed them right on the farm. We did not have all these fancy abattoirs and all those other things. I remember taking eggs to town and selling them.

My dad told a story. He was part of the credit union movement in Saskatchewan for many years. On his retirement, after serving for many years on various boards with the credit union, he was given some tributes. One of the gentlemen got up and said, “I knew Corny Epp”. My dad's name was Corny, Cornelius actually, but everybody called him Corny, which was his nickname and was not a pejorative term in those years. “I knew Corny Epp when he was an MP”, he said, “Oh, no, he's never been a member of Parliament. I knew him when he was meat peddler”. That is how we made our living. Things were tough, but we just got to work and we did it.

Farmers have been that way throughout the years. They are very innovative. If they cannot buy something they need, they make it. If they cannot fix something that needs fixing because parts are not available or they are too expensive, they improvise. In fact, one of the jokes going around Saskatchewan in those years was that some farmers tied together their machinery with baling wire. They made it work and they survived.

One of the despicable things though that has happened to farmers is that as their costs have gone up dramatically, lo and behold, they have not had the luxury that so many other people in the country have had, and that is the cost of living allowance.

Whether we are talking about members of Parliament or members of other professions, or the profession that I was in, the education profession, we were always contracting and negotiating agreements. We would always put cost of living increases into those agreements. Why? It was because fuel went up and therefore we needed more income, so that we could afford to buy the fuel. Groceries went up, so we needed more money to feed our families. It went on and on like that.

The truth of the matter is that farmers have had just the opposite. It is just amazing, when we think about it, that our agriculture industry in the country is as strong as it is because of the huge challenges that it has had over the last number of years.

I know that the cost of chemicals, pesticides, machinery, fertilizer, and the whole cost of fuel and property taxes, all of these things have gone up dramatically, and yet can the farmer demand a higher price for his product? No, he cannot. He has to take what he can get.

I remember having a number of farmers over the years talk to me, both before I was in politics and since, about the dilemma they face when their costs keep increasing and they land up actually borrowing against their capital equipment. They cannot afford to replace it and decide to make it go one more year. One more year becomes two years, three and four. Finally, they have decrepit old equipment and they do not have enough income to actually replace it. Eventually they get driven out of business. That is not acceptable.

We need to do everything that we possibly can to strengthen the agricultural industry in the country. This Liberal government has done a dreadfully awful job of recognizing the importance of the agricultural industry, and of doing anything proper with it.

It just so happens that our daughter married a farmer in Saskatchewan. When I graduated from university, I moved to Alberta and subsequently that is where our children were born. Then one of our kids goes and moves back to Saskatchewan, and marries a farmer. I thought, well, kid, I wish you well. I hope things go okay.

We went to Regina about a year ago or so. It was the first time that I saw this. Some farmer had rented or bought an old used, probably unusable, 40-foot trailer and painted a big sign on it, and parked it on his field so that visitors from the United States could see it. The sign said, “Welcome to Canada, the country where rapists, murderers and robbers go free, but farmers who sell their own grain go to jail”. Imagine the depth of frustration that illustrates.

I talked to another farmer, also in southern Saskatchewan, who said he was in a real dilemma. This was a number of years back before I was in politics. He owed money to the Farm Credit Corporation. The Farm Credit Corporation, a Government of Canada organization, was telling him to pay. It wanted its money back. He told them he had no cash and that he could not make his payment. However, he said his grain bins were full of durum wheat that the Wheat Board would not sell for him.

That particular farmer told me he had driven across the border to Montana and found an actual pasta plant. Can we believe it, an actual pasta plant? They are not permitted in Canada under the rules. The Liberal government faced that issue in Saskatoon a couple of years ago and with its policies made it impossible to have a home-grown pasta plant right in our own country for added value and a market for our own farmers' grain.

The farmer told me he could have taken his wheat across the border and could have sold it. Instead of getting $4 a bushel that the Wheat Board would offer if it had a quota, he would get $2 now and then hopefully another $2 when the final payments came in. If he took it to Montana, he would get $8 a bushel, cash, right away. The guy would write a cheque when it was delivered.

Under Canadian rules he was not permitted to take it into the United States. He had to sell it to the Wheat Board for $2 a bushel and then buy it back. This has nothing to do with the Americans preventing him from taking it into the United States. The Canadian government told him he could not sell a single kernel of wheat unless it went through the Wheat Board.

One can only imagine the farmer's frustration. One government agency, the Farm Credit Corporation, was telling him, “Pay us some cash”. He had the chance to convert his grain into instant cash but the other government agency, the Canadian Wheat Board, told him he could not do it. What is he going to do? The interest has been piling up. Threats from creditors have increased. He is getting more and more frustrated. I cannot for the life of me understand how a government that uses the word liberal, which means freedom, liberate, can pound a farmer into the ground so hard that he cannot survive.

The government ought to be ashamed of its record over the last 11 years. In the 11 years it has been in power, it is absolutely atrocious that it has not been able to address the agriculture issue with some long term solutions and some innovation that would provide farmers with the ability to market their product at a competitive price. Instead, farmers have to go through the Wheat Board where the lowest price is the law. It is like Zeller's, except Zeller's gives a bit of competition in its business.

I am not against the Wheat Board. Some people love it, and that is fine. I have no problem with that. Anybody who wants to market their grain through the Wheat Board should absolutely have the freedom to do so. I also think that a farmer who has found a market for grain that the Wheat Board is not selling should have the right to sell that grain to the highest bidder, just like every other merchant in this country. Whether I order water for my office or whether I am buying groceries or clothing, no matter what product I buy, I can see what kind of deal different people will give me. I am able to make a decision.

What is doubly offensive is that the Wheat Board only applies to the prairie provinces, which is incredible. I cannot believe the government would allow this to continue over all these years. The government has been crowing about being the party of national unity, but the things it has done in the last five or six years with respect to ad scam has done exactly the opposite. This country has never been so divided and un-unified as it has been because of the policies of the government.

The same thing is true when it comes to treating farmers across the country equally and equitably. The government has rules which apply in one part of the country but do not apply in another part. Obviously that makes competition very difficult.

Bill C-40 deals with some of the problems that farmers have had with marketing their grain, particularly with the WTO. This is another case of the government dithering on an issue which should be dealt with expeditiously. At the last minute the government is trying to push through some legislation which the World Trade Organization's dispute settlement body says must be done by August 1.

All parliamentarians are being backed into a corner. I am one of them and I will accept my responsibility. I will support Bill C-40 because of pragmatic necessity. We cannot afford to invite more WTO trade sanctions against us. The legislation must be implemented. Therefore, I will reluctantly support the bill so that it can get done.

At the same time I must emphasize I am willing to do that only because I expect that when the bill goes to committee, the amendments that will be put forward at committee will be dealt with rationally and decently by all of the people in the committee and also by the Liberal members for a change.

We need to look at this in the long term. We need to look seriously at the whole Canadian Grain Commission. We need to make sure the issues that are always before us are solved.

The amendment, for which we are asking for support as a condition of our supporting the bill receiving second reading and going to committee, would actually say that we want to have a comprehensive review of the Canada Grain Act and all of the organizations mandated by that act, and that the review should be completed within one year. If a Conservative government of the day had any say in it, we would certainly be acting on those recommendations. We would try to bring some long term stability and business balance to the country's agriculture industry.

One of the issues in dispute was with respect to transportation. Rail car allocation and grain transportation is a huge issue. People have no idea of the tonnes and tonnes of grain that come from our farms, particularly in the Prairies.

I grew up in Saskatchewan, the wheat basket of the country, acres and acres of fields of flowing grain. It is a beautiful sight. When we get in there with a swather or a combine and the sickle makes that swishing noise, it is such a thrill. My brother, who farmed for many years, said that there is something very special in knowing that his profession provides food for hundreds of thousands of--

Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:55 p.m.

Hamilton East—Stoney Creek Ontario

Liberal

Tony Valeri LiberalLeader of the Government in the House of Commons

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I wish to inform the House that Wednesday shall not be an allotted day.

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-40, An Act to amend the Canada Grain Act and the Canada Transportation Act, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Canada Grain ActGovernment Orders

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

Ken Epp Conservative Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB

Madam Speaker, talk about being interrupted in the middle of a sentence, almost in the middle of a word; I do not know what happened there.

My brother farmed for many years. He said he was proud to be in a profession that provided food for not only hundreds of thousands of people in this country, but around the world. People have heard of the Canadian Foodgrains Bank, which is a wonderful charity that distributes food around the world to people who are suffering from famine. My brother had a bumper sticker on his half-ton which read, “When you complain about the farmers, don't talk with your mouth full”. I thought that was a great little bumper sticker. My brother worked hard.

I remember when I was a youth on the farm, the rule of thumb was that the sun was there as a light for us to do our work and we did not waste it. If the sun came up at five in the morning in summer, that is when we were in the field and we worked until it was dark.

I also remember my father, speaking of transportation, saying, “How come when I buy a tractor or a piece of farm equipment, a half-ton or a grain truck that is built in Ontario, it is FOB factory and I have to pay for the freight to take it out to my farm, but if they buy my wheat, I have to pay the freight to deliver it to their doorstep”. Farmers in Saskatchewan, Alberta and Manitoba have had to pay the freight both ways all these years. It is another case where we have neglected the issue of national unity.

Madam Speaker, I stopped my watch during the interruption, so I still have 12 seconds. In those seconds as I wrap up, I would like to say that I appreciate the opportunity to speak on behalf of farmers. I know that they are in desperate straits these days. We need to do something that gives long term stability to their industry and, we hope, the ability of farmers to make a proper living for themselves and their families.

Canada Grain ActGovernment Orders

6 p.m.

Conservative

Gary Schellenberger Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

Madam Speaker, I enjoyed very much my colleague's rendition of growing up on a farm. It brought back a lot of memories for me because, although I was not born and raised on a farm, I spent a lot of years on my grandfather's farm. I can relate to a lot of what the hon. member has talked about.

This past weekend I met with a group of farmers and farm organizations. I asked the question again which I had asked a couple of weeks ago about the CAIS program. I asked if they thought that the CAIS program worked. I took a vote, the second vote in two weeks, and not one hand came up. Again it shows that the farm community is left out when policy is put together. It seems that the bureaucrats in Ottawa decide what is good for farmers.

When we look at some of the proposals that are here and because the matter has been left until the eleventh hour, I would like to ask the hon. member if he thinks that this is a way for the bureaucrats to push something on to the farm community.

I made a suggestion one day in one of the heritage committee meetings. There was a conflict among two or three witnesses and I suggested that the best way to fix the problem was to bring everybody into a room, supply them with good food and facilities, lock the doors and have all the people involved sit down and come up with a reasonable solution.

It can be done that way. I figure we should bring in the farm community, all the people who grow the grains and oilseeds, and have them sit down with government, not only the federal government but the provincial governments at the same time. Put all the various people involved in the industry in a room and lock the door until they come up with a good policy. Then we should not let the bureaucrats change it all around saying, “This will be good for you”.

Why does my colleague think this matter has been left until the eleventh hour?

Canada Grain ActGovernment Orders

6 p.m.

Conservative

Ken Epp Conservative Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB

Madam Speaker, the short answer to the question is that the government is just incapable of getting its head around what is important and what needs to be done now. A phrase has been developed here, since just before Christmas, calling the Prime Minister “Mr. Dithers”, but I would attribute that particular characteristic to the whole government. It seems to push off until the last minute, and sometimes even after it is too late, some of these necessary things that need to be done.

One of the issues the Liberal government has failed to address is the very nature of farm income. Farming is one of those businesses which has so many variables. The business that I was in before I became an MP, as an instructor at a technical institute, gave me a salary. My salary was almost to the penny the same month after month, with the exception, of course, coming after my annual contributions to Canada pension had been paid up. Then my income went up a bit for the last part of the year, but it was very predictable and always the same.

Many other businesses are that way. Historically some of them may go up and down seasonally to some degree, but it is always fairly predictable. However, we have had in this country many years now where farmers have struggled with many variables.

There are some variables over which nobody has any control except the Liberal government, which I think would like to pass a law to control the weather but it cannot be done. There are droughts. There are times of floods. There is too much rain or too little. There are storms. I remember growing up on the farm. There were occasions when a hailstorm would roll through and all of the anticipated income from several fields would disappear in just a matter of minutes. Those are variables that cannot be anticipated.

There are various plant diseases. There are insects. There are, as I said before, increasing costs of chemicals, fertilizers and farm equipment and the cost of operating and repairing that equipment. Those things are beyond the farmer's control. They happen and there they are, but there are some things which will occasionally bring a farmer down to where his income for the year is almost non-existent yet the expenses have still all been there.

If we want to have a long term policy that will give stability to the farmers, we must have some system whereby in good years farmers should be able to put away some of the excess money in those good years without having to pay a bunch of taxes on it. It should be like a really high limit RRSP. They could put their money away and it would carry them through if they were to have a year or two in which their incomes were suppressed.

Besides that, though, there is the much longer term issue and that is the value of the farm product itself. We have allowed this to deteriorate beyond comprehension. The government has done nothing. Today we are talking about the World Trade Organization. When this ruling came down, the Americans immediately appealed the parts that went against the United States. Did this government appeal the items that went against our farmers? No, the Liberals dithered and sat on their hands and twiddled their thumbs and played their violins or whatever they did. They did not do anything. That is of course typical of this government. It dithers and dithers and does not do things promptly.

I do not have all of the answers, but as my colleague has said, we need to sit down with farmers, with producers, with people in the agrifood industry, and we need to seriously talk about how to develop and implement some plans that will increase the stability and the viability of being a farmer.

I think it is sad when I see and talk to young people who would love to go farming. In fact, I have experienced this within my own family. They just love it. There is something special about getting one's hands in the dirt and making food. It is really something special. There are young people who want to farm, but it is virtually and totally untenable now. It just cannot be done.

There is no way that a farmer can pass off the farm to a younger person because there is no money for any kind of retirement, let alone continuing to operate the farm. The farmer is almost always forced to sell. The family farm, which in some cases has been in the family for 100 years, is lost to the family. All of that is because of government policies.

Canada Grain ActGovernment Orders

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

Madam Speaker, as I listened to the member's comments, an issue came to my mind which deals with the Canadian Wheat Board. I know he touched on that very generally, but I am always troubled about this issue. I know that in my riding there is a division among farmers about whether the Canadian Wheat Board is a good thing or a bad thing. There is some controversy in that respect.

My colleague indicated that he would feel very comfortable for any farmer who wants to market their grain under the Wheat Board to be able to do that. I had always understood, until I was educated by farmers in my riding, that the Canadian Wheat Board was the Canadian Wheat Board, but in fact what I find is that it is only the western Canadian Wheat Board and that in Ontario farmers operate under very different rules.

That is, in western Canada our farmers are forced to sell their wheat through the Wheat Board, whereas in Ontario farmers have a measure of freedom of choice where they can use the wheat board there as essentially some kind of marketing board. It is not compulsory and they are not sent to jail for selling their grain outside of that Ontario wheat board.

Why would a government take this difference to parts of the country? One would think that if the system is good in one area of the country it should also be good for the other. And why the penalties that attach to western Canadian farmers? This is something I simply do not understand. Perhaps the member can explain it to me.

Canada Grain ActGovernment Orders

6:10 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Hon. Jean Augustine)

I would imagine that the member for Edmonton--Sherwood Park would know that his time has expired, but I will be very generous and give him a few seconds to respond.

Canada Grain ActGovernment Orders

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

Ken Epp Conservative Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB

Madam Speaker, I think it is just a matter of plain contempt by the Liberal government for the western farmer. Contempt is a very strong word, but the fact of the matter is that the number of electoral seats in the west is very low. Liberals know they would never get away with it if they imposed that kind of a restriction on Ontario or Quebec where 60% of the Liberal seats lie. In the west, it does not matter, they think, so if they do not win some seats it does not matter. I think that is the reason.

On the other hand, though, I would like to say, because there are some people who are listening to this, my argument always has been that if the Wheat Board participation were voluntary, it would improve the prices for those who are selling to the Wheat Board because then it would have to compete with other buyers for the product and everyone's price would increase. I am quite convinced of that from an economic--

Canada Grain ActGovernment Orders

6:10 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Hon. Jean Augustine)

Resuming debate, the hon. member for Yellowhead.

Canada Grain ActGovernment Orders

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Merrifield Conservative Yellowhead, AB

Madam Speaker, it is a privilege for me to stand on behalf of the residents of Yellowhead on this particular piece of legislation before us, Bill C-40.

I will say right off the top that I am not necessarily opposing this piece of legislation, but I do want to lay before the House some concerns I have as a representative of the people of Yellowhead.

Actually this issue is a little closer to my heart than many in this House, because agriculture has been my profession for as long as I have been in the workplace. My family and I started with a dairy farm and milked close to 100 cows. I had a very modern dairy operation and was very proud of raising my two boys in that situation.

I took very close note of the comments of some of the other members who said that people who pass on an agricultural industry to their children could be charged with child abuse. That is a standard joke, but it is actually a very sobering thought. When one understands what actually is happening with regard to agriculture in communities and ridings like mine, one becomes sober at the thought of what is actually happening down on the farm.

We sold the dairy operation in 1996 and moved on to a beef operation as well as grains and oilseeds. We farm up to 3,000 acres, which is one of the larger farms in the area, and we are very proud of it. It is a wonderful profession. It is one of those professions where one goes to work in the morning, very early, I might add, and does not really worry about what time it is. In fact, quite often we will miss meals and not be too concerned about what hour of the day it is because our whole motivation is not so much about what time we get home in the evening. Our whole motivation is what we can get accomplished during that day.

It is an exciting profession from that aspect. Because of that, a lot of people are drawn to it. If one can be drawn to it and still make a good living, that is a tremendous success, but I want to lay before the House some of the pressures people are facing so that members can understand.

I would like members to realize that in my riding of Yellowhead, in our area of Alberta, we have had a significant number of years of drought. We have had two years of very significant drought and one year of unbelievable pest problems with grasshoppers. They ate absolutely everything that did grow in the midst of the drought. That was devastation.

As has been referred to in other speeches, there was the problem with lack of feed, but there was Hay West and how farmer to farmer actually rallied in this country and sent hay into my riding and ridings around my area to provide some relief. One has to understand that the Hay West project was not necessarily started by a government in power at all; it was initiated farmer to farmer. Farmers understand the pressures and they wanted to help out where they could. That is something that every profession and industry in this country could learn from.

Something else we should also take note of, because it has been mentioned by many of my colleagues, is that the Liberal government has failed farmers. It has failed to understand the pressures and failed to understand that it has to support agriculture.

Before I get into that, I want to explain for members that after the drought and the grasshoppers, we had the BSE issue. The beef industry is a significant part of the primary agriculture of my riding. I cannot explain how dramatically this has impacted my area. I can say that there have been many, many calls to my office from individuals who are beside themselves, who do not know what to do. Some are suicidal. My staff can tell horror stories from over the last couple of years. Some of the calls they received were unbelievably intense. That gives members a perspective of how we are coming at this piece of legislation and the stress that is on it.

Why should the government even protect farming? I think that is a fair question in this House and I believe it is one that our colleagues on the other side have wrestled with, because budget after budget, if one reads between the lines and understands exactly the lack of support that has come forward for agriculture, one gets the sense that the government has no intention of supporting agriculture and would prefer that farmers were out of the industry.

It is unbelievable it would think that way. When we look at the actual number of spinoff jobs that are created for every primary job in agriculture, it is one to seven. It is much different than the oil patch or in the lumber industry, where it is one and four. In small communities or in rural areas where communities grow and thrive on the strength of agriculture, it has immense repercussions to them and the livelihoods of the people who live there.

When bills like this come forward, we get into this whole idea of “Why should we support agriculture?” It is because of that impact. It is also because it is very important as a sovereign nation that we can feed ourselves and continue to do that long into the future.

A lot of Canadians say that we have such a small population compared to our land mass and that they do not believe we will ever go hungry. Therein lies a bit of a problem.

In Europe, it is a little different. Europeans have gone hungry. They support their agriculture to the tune of 75% or more in subsidization.

The United States does it as well. In fact, in the years ahead, if we look at the amount of money the Americans will put into agriculture, they will eclipse the subsidization in Europe. They understand that to be a sovereign nation they must have secure, safe food for their society.

Unfortunately, in Canada the government does not believe that this will be problem. It is a problem. It is something that we have realize, if we lose our agriculture and our agricultural sector.

I have always said that our farmers should be subsidized because they have subsidized low food costs for many years. Farmers do not appreciate going to a mailbox and getting a cheque from a government. That is not the intent. I do not know a farmer who wants to do that. However, farmers want fair value for their product.

This brings me to the legislation, If as a country, we are not prepared to at least support some of the rules so they are fair, so farmers have a fighting chance when it comes to some of the trade issues and fairer value for product, then we have failed them miserably and we have failed society as a whole because of the repercussions of it.

International trade is a major issue. We have talked about the Wheat Board. Many have spoken about its inability to be flexible with regard to allowing farmers to trade internationally on their own, only in western Canada, not in all of Canada.

We have had many repercussions of international trade, particularly with the United States. It has a population of 300 million. We have 30 million. It is 10 times larger. We have a tremendous amount of resources with regard to agriculture that we would like to trade into a market that large. We can compete very easily on a fair and level playing field, and we have a free trade agreement. However, when a neighbour to the south becomes aggressive, whether it is with softwood lumber or with the BSE, which has yet to be proven that it has do with science or health, it is all about politics and bad politics at that, there is a negative repercussion on the agriculture industry and that has some tremendous impacts.

With regard to the legislation we have to ask, why did we not appeal the decision made by the WTO panel? The United States has appealed any decision that went against it. However, when it comes to our side of it, we have been very slack and lax in doing that.

That sends another message to our people down on the farm that we are not prepared to stand behind them and to work for them in an industry with which they are have a tremendous amount of problems and stress. I do not believe that is where Canadians want us to be. Most Canadians want us to look after the farming industry. They have a sense and an understanding that it is an occupation that is worth supporting and worth looking after.

I had the opportunity to be in Taiwan about three weeks ago. We used to trade a tremendous amount of beef with Taiwan before the mad cow issue. In fact, it was about $4 million a month and could progress to about $8 million a month. When I was there, Taiwan had just announced it would open the border to United States beef as of April 16. We argued that if it were to open the border to United States beef, then it would have to come up with a very good reason why not to open it up to Canadian beef.

Not only is our protocol on beef with regard to health and safety better, which the people of Taiwan were somewhat concerned about and that was the reason they had shut the border, but it is a better quality and a better price.Those were three good reasons to open it up and we pressed upon them to do that. I believe that will happen. It is important not just to Taiwan, but it will send a message to all the Pacific Rim countries that it will have major repercussions as far as an agricultural community.

Why do we need that? We have to depend on more countries than just the United States as trading partners. If we are to have a thriving agricultural community and a community that has to compete internationally, then we have to do these things.

Where have we been in the last decade? Not only has the government been trying to shut agriculture down in the country, but it has been retarding farmers from pushing for international trade in other countries. That has been a tremendous failure of the government, and it is unfortunate. Understanding the agriculture community really starts with knowing a bit about it and knowing where people are hurting, then discerning how we can help to create other markets and support the industry.

Diversification on the farm was the call of the age about a decade ago. We knew that to survive in agriculture we needed to diversify. Canada has beef herds, grains and oilseeds and an elk industry, which is another industry that has been badly hurt by international trade.

The elk industry has gone through the BSE crisis just as our cattle industry went through it. The big problem is the government does not understand the impact of chronic wasting disease on the elk industry. However, chronic wasting disease has been looked after and we have not had a case in three or four years. We have to aggressively pursue international markets to get that industry back on its feet.

Our agricultural industry was impacted by mad cow disease through no science whatsoever. What was amazing was when a Liberal member of Parliament went to the association a week ago and said that he knew absolutely nothing about the problems in the elk industry. That amazes me because he is a member of Parliament who sits on the other side of the House, but comes from my province. An article appeared in the Western Producer last week about this.

I get frustrated when I see members of Parliament make decisions on issues that they do not clearly understand and that have major repercussions, especially on an industry that is fragile and in such dire straights. I know how fragile it is because the farm development company, which is a federal banking organization, phoned me at my office and told me that if the border did not open on March 7, many farmers in my riding would be in serious trouble. They would be unable to support their loans throughout the summer. Not only can they not get capital, but they cannot get any support from the government or a government agency which is supposed to be in the business of supporting them.

In defence, I am sure my colleagues on the other side would say that they have been putting billions of dollars into agriculture over the last couple of years. We have to work in conjunction with farmers. A systemic problem has happened, not only over the last couple of years with mad cow disease, but it is a philosophy that has gone on with the Liberal government over the last decade. While it has been in power, it has destroyed the agriculture industry by not promoting it in the way it needs to be promoted or supporting it in the way it needs to be supported on both the international side as well as on the domestic side.

We have seen a shrinking number of farmers right across the country. Small family farms are no longer able to support their livelihoods. They are being forced to sell out to larger ones. The larger corporations are taking over and that is a sobering thought. We should be asking ourselves if that is the direction in which we need to go. Is that a positive direction for Canada as a society, or is it something where we should put measures in to have some checks and balances?

We have to take a serious look at what is in the best interests of Canada and what is in the best interests of the taxpayers of this country, because we are all taxpayers. Some governments will say that the farmers are always asking for more and more money. As I said earlier, I do not believe any farmer wants subsidies. What farmers really want is fair market value for their products. They want a government that will support them in achieving that in the most aggressive ways it can.

Pieces of legislation like this one and rulings from the WTO have got to be dealt with. We will support the bill reluctantly in the sense that it should have been done much more aggressively. We look forward to some of the amendments that we will be able to capture as the bill goes into the committee process. Hopefully coming out of committee we will be able to support the bill in a much more fulsome way.

A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to have been moved.

Canada Grain ActAdjournment Proceedings

6:30 p.m.

Conservative

Bradley Trost Conservative Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK

Madam Speaker, tonight on adjournment proceedings I am rising to bring forward the issue of equalization. This is a question which I first brought to the House some time ago.

It is a question which has united almost all of the politicians in Saskatchewan from all parties. We have had unanimity among the federal Conservatives and the provincial Saskatchewan Party, the provincial Liberals, the provincial NDP and the federal NDP. Only one elected politician in the whole province of Saskatchewan has stood against the province of Saskatchewan's interest. Only one politician from Saskatchewan voted with the separatists, the Bloc Québécois, in this House to stop Saskatchewan from getting a fair deal on its equalization. That is the one politician who had the ability to do something, the Minister of Finance, the hon. member for Wascana.

Why are we so passionate as a team of Saskatchewan politicians? Why are we so passionate across all political parties? The matter of equalization has to do with Saskatchewan's natural resources which by right of the Constitution we should have complete access to, we should have total and complete benefit of. It is a right which is being taken away from us through the equalization process.

The way equalization is currently structured, people of Saskatchewan are losing benefits from their natural resources. Every time the government of Saskatchewan gets a dollar in royalties for oil, or uranium and so forth, the federal government claws it back, and the people of Saskatchewan no longer get the benefit of that wealth which is supposed to be theirs under the Constitution.

The purpose of the question was to have the same principles apply to Saskatchewan that Newfoundland and Labrador and Nova Scotia received in the deals they made, and that is the full utilization of their natural resources for the wealth of the province. Many academics have demonstrated that the way the equalization system is set up currently is unfair. We end up with double counting in general GDP and then in specific revenues with the equalization. Unique categories such as asbestos and potash are counted one way, heavy oil another, hydro another, and so forth. We want nothing more than the basic principles of fairness applied.

To the province of Saskatchewan this would mean $800 million a year according to Library of Parliament estimates. What could $800 million do for the province of Saskatchewan? What could it do for the people? What is it in practical, concrete terms? Let me give a couple of examples.

Saskatchewan could have 260 MRI machines, which perhaps is too many but the province could have them. It could have 26 four lane bridges with full cloverleaf entrances. Again it is probably more than we need but that is how many we could have. We could completely abolish all the education property tax for everyone, farmers, businesses and homeowners, throughout the province of Saskatchewan.

That is the practical meaning of what equalization is. It is fairness we seek, fairness for the province of Saskatchewan.

Canada Grain ActAdjournment Proceedings

6:30 p.m.

Scarborough—Guildwood Ontario

Liberal

John McKay LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance

Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure to talk about equalization, which is a government program, the basis of which is the measurement of fiscal capacity, that is, how much money a province can raise each year to fund programs and services.

In the case of Saskatchewan, it is about 16% of Saskatchewan's revenues that will be equalized and impact heavily on its level of entitlements. Saskatchewan is the happy beneficiary of non-renewable resources and has benefited in particular from the strong rise in energy prices resulting in lower equalization. As energy prices rise, more money is generated, and therefore the province's equalization entitlements decline. The happy result was that in the year 2003-04 Saskatchewan became a have province joining Alberta, British Columbia and Ontario.

One of the features of the equalization program is the floor provision which protects provinces from large annual declines in equalization. It provided over $100 million in benefits to Saskatchewan in the year 2002-03. The floor provision protects the finance department in Saskatchewan from ups and downs that would otherwise impact negatively on its budgeting process.

Non-renewable resource revenue is forecast to be $1.4 billion in 2004-05, twice the amount of the $700 million figure projected in the 2004 budget. As I said, the idea here is to protect against volatility, so that treasurers going forward can analyze what revenues they can reasonably expect. In the negotiations with the premiers and Prime Minister, that was effectively taken care of with a guaranteed floor by the Government of Canada which essentially bought the risk of the entitlement.

In the case of Saskatchewan, the Government of Canada has taken action to improve the operation of the crown leases tax base and in March 2004 Saskatchewan was compensated with a one time payment of $120 million. In budget 2005, Bill C-43 will provide a further $6.5 million adjustment to Saskatchewan in 2005-06 for the same purpose.

Saskatchewan's situation is relatively prosperous. In addition to receiving the $590 million in additional entitlements this year out of the equalization program, Saskatchewan will happily be running an economy at 3.4%, a debt to GDP of 19.3%, which is substantially better than pretty well anyone else in the country. The national average is about 25.1%. This will be its 11th consecutive surplus budget this year and the unemployment rate is at 5.5%. As we can see, its situation is substantially improved over that of pretty well any other province in the country, let alone the situation where the folks in Newfoundland and Labrador and Nova Scotia find themselves.

This is a program that is working tremendously to the benefit of Saskatchewan in particular. The Minister of Finance has done an extraordinary job in addressing those particular items that affect Saskatchewan in unique ways.

Canada Grain ActAdjournment Proceedings

6:35 p.m.

Conservative

Bradley Trost Conservative Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK

Madam Speaker, the people of Saskatchewan are going to hold the finance minister and the Liberals to account for not offering the province of Saskatchewan the same deal on equalization that they made with Nova Scotia and Newfoundland and Labrador.

When talking about all those numbers, what the member did not say is per capita GDP, per capita income, and real money in real people's pockets. The people of Saskatchewan are considerably poorer than other provinces. Let me use the example of Manitoba, not to pick on it, that receives a billion dollars a year. We are a poorer province. Only funny math shows any difference. We should have received $8 billion over the last decade. To have received $500 million, $600 million or $700 million, when we should have received $8 billion is almost an insult. All we ask for is fairness and some real representation in government, not just a figurehead.

Canada Grain ActAdjournment Proceedings

6:35 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Madam Speaker, it is pretty hard to cry poor when the numbers do not back it up. As I said earlier, Saskatchewan is hardly facing the same economic and fiscal challenges that Newfoundland and Labrador and Nova Scotia face.

In Saskatchewan's case, net debt was one of the lowest in the country at 19.3% with 11 consecutive surplus budgets. Newfoundland and Labrador's unemployment rate is 17.5% and Saskatchewan's is 5.5%. The debt to GDP in Newfoundland and Labrador is 63% and 43% in Nova Scotia.

Therefore, it is pretty hard for the hon. member to claim that it is a terrible per capita situation, when in fact the numbers speak exactly to the opposite. As I said before, the Minister of Finance has been the one to advocate Saskatchewan's issues before the cabinet table and I would argue that $710 million is a pretty darn fine--

Canada Grain ActAdjournment Proceedings

6:40 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Hon. Jean Augustine)

The hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst.

Canada Grain ActAdjournment Proceedings

6:40 p.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Madam Speaker, on March 8, I asked a few questions in the House of Commons. I would like to refer to the second question I asked:

Mr. Speaker, while the Minister of Transport was in Chicoutimi saying that the reform was over, at the Liberal convention this past weekend Liberal members from New Brunswick and Quebec, and the president of the Acadie-Bathurst Liberal Association, Marc Duguay, voted in favour of a resolution to relax EI rules.

In light of the adoption of the resolution, does the Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development agree with her Liberal colleagues and Marc Duguay that the latest reform did not go far enough to eliminate the gap and will she accept the 28 recommendations of the parliamentary committee?

The Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development responded with:

Mr. Speaker, it is incredible how popular a topic the Liberal Party of Canada convention is with the opposition parties. I can see that it was closely watched.

The minister continued:

It was a very good convention. All the resolutions we considered had been tabled. Hon. members may not be familiar with our party's constitution, but all these resolutions had been tabled long before. Accordingly, party supporters from New Brunswick and across Canada were very pleased with the improvements to the EI system.

A month has gone by and I can assure the House of Commons that the people of Acadie—Bathurst are not happy with the changes to the EI system. The people of Gaspé have said they are not happy with the changes to the EI system either.

I can assure the House that the people of Newfoundland and Labrador are not happy with the changes to employment insurance. That is what the people are saying.

It is true that people in the southern part of the province werepleased, perhaps, with the changes the minister proposed regarding the best 14 weeks. I congratulate them if they are lucky enough to have 17 or 18 weeks work, when there are people in the Acadian Peninsula and other places in the Gaspé, as well as in Forestville in Northern Quebec, who have trouble getting 10.

I have trouble understanding how it is that 420 hours are needed to qualify for EI, the equivalent of twelve 35-hour weeks. These people usually work for minimum wage and receive only 55% of their earnings, and on top of that, there is talk of the best 14 weeks.

I would therefore like to ask the minister whether a new study has been done to see whether everybody is happy. Is she going to make the changes? This very day, a press release from the minister announced that such and such a change would be made in EI. But not one change has been made.

When will the changes be made? Is the minister going to heed the parliamentary committee and make the 28 proposed changes?

Canada Grain ActAdjournment Proceedings

6:40 p.m.

Peterborough Ontario

Liberal

Peter Adams LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development

Madam Speaker, our government is committed to ensuring that employment insurance remains responsive to the needs of all Canadians, including seasonal workers. The Government of Canada pledged to take action to address the most pressing challenges facing the employment insurance program, and that is what we have done.

We have a long history of ensuring that the employment insurance program remains responsive to the needs of all Canadians. We are giving careful consideration and will respond to all the recommendations concerning changes to the program.

As recently as last spring, the government introduced a pilot project, providing five additional weeks of EI benefits to assist workers who face an annual income gap. The EI program enhancements we announced in the budget of this year represent an investment of over $300 million. The changes in the EI program will assist over 225,000 Canadian workers and their families.

Those announced changes will reduce the eligibility threshold to claim EI. We will also now calculate benefits based on workers' best 14 weeks of earnings. We will better enable workers to work while claiming benefits. We announced that we will extend benefits to specific areas of especially high unemployment.

We have in fact been reducing premiums every year for 11 years. As a result, the premium rate has dropped from $3.07 in 1994 to $1.95 in 2005, the lowest level since 1940. Our objective is to balance revenues and expenses and we believe we will achieve that this year. Employment insurance continues to provide temporary income support to people who involuntarily leave employment. For example, in 2002-03, 1.4 million people received $8.2 billion in regular income benefits.

May I remind the member for Acadie—Bathurst of all the changes the government has already made to the employment insurance program, so that it can continue meeting the needs of Canadians and a rapidly changing labour market. For example, the intensity rule was repealed because it did not help increase labour market participation. The clawback provision was amended and now no longer applies to Canadians who seek temporary income support for the first time or who receive special benefits.

The government has understood what Canadians need and that is why I am proud of the improvements we have made so far, and the improvements we will continue to make to this program. It is clear that we are committed to helping workers in this country. That is precisely why the government has kept its promise and announced these changes that I have mentioned.

Canada Grain ActAdjournment Proceedings

6:45 p.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Madam Speaker, although the parliamentary secretary has said that his government has made changes, he is not saying that, only last year, the employment insurance program produced a surplus of $3 billion, which belongs to the workers, while he is proposing changes worth some $300 million. The figure appears big, but compared to surpluses of $3 billion, it is a problem.

While people need to have their benefits calculated on the basis of their 12 best weeks, the program continues to take the 14 best weeks into account. People in ridings like mine—and certain Liberal organizers as well—have said on television and radio and even in the papers, that the Liberal government did not go far enough. That is what the people of the Gaspé and Newfoundland and Labrador have said as well.

Now, I agree with the parliamentary secretary's remark that, for the past 10 years, EI premiums have gone down. In fact, the Liberals have responded for 10 years to the call by the Conservatives in this regard. Still, no real changes have taken place, although change is what the people want.

Canada Grain ActAdjournment Proceedings

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Adams Liberal Peterborough, ON

Madam Speaker, let me mention some of the other changes. The maximum benefit period for EI parental and maternity leave was increased, as the hon. member knows, from six months to a full year.

To ensure that claimants can accept lower paying jobs without reducing the benefit amount to which they are entitled, we made the small weeks provisions a permanent and national feature of the program. In addition, we increased the threshold from $150 to $225.

We also brought in the new six week compassionate care benefit. To help workers who experience an annual income gap, the government has implemented a two year pilot project providing five additional weeks of regular EI benefits to claimants in regions with very high unemployment rates.

We are reviewing with great interest the recommendations of the subcommittee on EI and we will report back to Parliament within the prescribed period of time.

Canada Grain ActAdjournment Proceedings

6:45 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Hon. Jean Augustine)

The motion to adjourn the House is now deemed to have been adopted. Accordingly, the House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 10 a.m., pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).

(The House adjourned at 6:49 p.m.)