House of Commons Hansard #101 of the 38th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was chair.

Topics

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9:05 p.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Let us get back to the facts, Mr. Chair--

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9:05 p.m.

Conservative

Lee Richardson Conservative Calgary South Centre, AB

No, let us have him apologize right now. I have had enough of this. I am telling--

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9:05 p.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Mr. Chair, let--

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9:05 p.m.

Conservative

Lee Richardson Conservative Calgary South Centre, AB

--Joe Volpe--

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9:05 p.m.

The Deputy Chair

May I remind the hon. member that he must refer to the member by his title. Would the member please let the minister answer.

I am sure that the Minister of Immigration understands that he must be careful in his choice of words, in his choice of expressions and in his way of answering the questions. We will let the minister answer the question. Thank you.

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9:10 p.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

As I was saying, Mr. Chair, when we are going to make a distinction about whether it is revenues or fees, I acknowledge that there was a spike in revenues because of course we have a spike in applications, but there has been no increase in fees. The fees are divided into two parts: the application fee and of course as well the landing fee, which does not have to be paid until someone has landed.

That does not diminish the fact that we have a greater and greater number of applicants. We are in the business of processing all of them. We want to make sure that all those who want to come to this country and fit those criteria that we--

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9:10 p.m.

The Deputy Chair

Thank you, Minister. We will now recognize the hon. member for Scarborough--Rouge River.

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9:10 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Mr. Chair, I am quite pleased to participate in this debate tonight. It is a procedure I actually have not previously participated in. It is of course intended to shed some light on, focus on the scrutiny of and challenge the expenditures of the ministry that we are dealing with here tonight.

This happens only a couple of times a year and is usually driven by members of the opposition, but there are a lot of government members who take great interest in all of our ministries. From time to time we cannot locate the minister in the caucus room to have a few words with him or her, so we like to have this opportunity in the House to take up issues.

I would like to address the refugee determination system. Clearly Canada's traditions are known and respected around the world. Whenever I have had the privilege of representing Canadians as a parliamentarian in my travels, those traditions and those Canadian ways of doing things are recognized in many countries around the world. We are often congratulated, and occasionally criticized, but for the most part we tend to do things well and that is recognized.

One of the things Canada does is provide safe haven for individuals who may face persecution in their homelands when they flee from internal strife. Over the last 10 years Canada has been able to accommodate about 250,000 people. We call them refugees or asylum seekers.

That seems like a large number. It is about 25,000 per year. They are accommodated in our immigration target number, which is at this time about 240,000 per year. This means that refugee landings are about 10% of our immigration intake. It seems to be working reasonably well but not flawlessly. It never has. Of course, refugee procedures do not work well in any country. All countries recognize this and continue attempts at improvement.

I am going to make a few remarks and then I am going to ask a question of the minister. I know he will want to give us an answer.

The world today is a much different world than it was 50 years ago at the end of the second world war. It is a much different world now than it was when the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees was created to deal with people's movements around the world.

The post-war situation was much different than the one we have now. Canadians know that. Canadians see that. I represent a riding that is 75% immigrant. That is a very large percentage. Those immigrants know the immigration system very well. They have been here 5 years, 10 years or 50 years. The people in my riding know the immigration system. My work as a member of Parliament in the constituency is about 90% immigration. Whenever the minister wants to let the portfolio go, I could probably take over for a few days quite nicely, with the help of my constituents, of course.

Many of the urban ridings have large numbers of immigrants. Let me say that when there are difficulties, obstacles, discontinuities, these problems in the immigration system, there is no better place to know where the problems are than in an immigrant community. Immigrants know where the problems are. They see them and they talk about them. Many of these people, through their families, experience these difficulties.

There have been huge changes in people migrations around the world. It is easier to move around the world now. There are people who, for pay, smuggle people around the world. There are movements of that type. There are also drought, famine and all kinds of things.

Most countries now are suggesting that we have to make some reforms. We have to make some changes.These discussions are happening at the UN and they are happening here among MPs who are active on this file. We are talking about it.

Canadians know that accepting refugees is part of our core values as Canadians but they also know that our system is abused. Our immigrant Canadians know it. They see that there is abuse from time to time. A little abuse is fixed in one part and then something happens somewhere else. That one is fixed up and then it happens again. It is similar to a leaky roof, I guess. Our core value is to extend the compassion that we always have.

I will move to the immigration and refugee determination system. The 2005-06 report on plans and priorities for citizenship and immigration notes that the department along with the Immigration and Refugee Board, the Department of Justice and the Canada Border Services Agency will be developing processes to help improve Canada's domestic refugee determination system.

Could the minister outline what types of changes are envisaged, what we are going to do to try to reduce the abuse and resource a compassionate, effective refugee determination system?

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9:15 p.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Mr. Chair, first let me compliment the member on being able to reflect his constituency in the effective way that he has indicated. As he said, with 75% of that population falling into the category of immigrant community, just think for a moment about what it means. It means that we have a wonderful democratic institution where constituents can go to their member and express to him or her not only the issues of a larger Canadian environment or vision but those that relate to them most directly with their families and loved ones.

He also raised the issue of the refugee determination system. We have already said that we are looking at the process, looking at access and looking at consequences. We want to see that those who have a right to claim asylum get access to the system as quickly as possible.

We have taken other measures, as I indicated earlier. We have looked at a safe third country agreement. We look at other measures that deal with visas so that we prevent those who are not genuine asylum seekers at the front end, but we deal with those who are genuine in a process time that is efficient and effective.

We have made investments in the IRB. The chief commissioner of the IRB has put forward an action plan that we are accepting and implementing. Already we have seen an elimination of a backlog. It went from 52,000 to about 25,000 in this last year. What do we do about consequences? We are working on a situation that would see greater finality and immediacy to a decision so that those who are genuine can get on with their lives and those who are deemed to be something else are removed so that they can get on with their lives elsewhere.

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9:15 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Mr. Chair, at this time the legal process for refugee determination involves a hearing and a determination by the Immigration and Refugee Board. There is not, as I understand it, a technical direct second level of appeal to that. An individual can go to the Federal Court and allege a defect in the process and have a review in that way.

I personally feel that the system is working rather well with all of the challenges that it has, but I do have a question for the minister. Has the department given any consideration to the alleged unfairness that may exist from time to time when that first level of determination does not have a built in second level appeal process? Can he comment on whether or not he or the department is considering any revisions to the system that would allow another level of appeal? That may drive some people crazy. Many Canadians think that there is enough due process built in with the determination at point of entry, the determination process and then the possible appeal to the Federal Court, et cetera. Could the minister comment on that?

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9:20 p.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Mr. Chair, as I indicated earlier, I had already committed to the standing committee that we would be looking at a system that would include the member's concerns. I also said that I would look at alternatives to the RAD, i.e., another appeal process, or I would commit to doing something that we had already put in place.

I want to again repeat that an appeal can be made to the Federal Court. There is an appeal that can be classified as one to the pre-removal risk assessment. An appeal can always be made on humanitarian or compassionate grounds. All of these really speak to the issue that someone does not want to accept the fact that there was a negative decision. The problem is not associated with those who receive a positive decision, and we do have many positive decisions.

The member outlined the numbers. Over the course of the last 10 years some 250,000 refugees have landed in Canada. That is about 25,000 per year, which is not an insignificant number. He indicated that represents about 10% of all those who have landed in this country. The Parliament of Canada accepted that range as an appropriate number to fit in our immigration plan, an immigration plan which the House of Commons approves every November.

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9:20 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Mr. Chair, another aspect of refugee determination involves the relatively large proportion of refugee claimants who come across the border from the United States. They are not just Americans claiming refugee status, but people from other countries who have found their way into the United States and have decided to come across the border. It includes some refugees from Central America as well.

I wonder if the department has had sufficient experience with the new safe third country agreement that was entered into happily between Canada and the United States just over the last year or so. I was happy I did not hold my breath waiting for that agreement. It took a long time to negotiate it and a long time for the United States Congress and officials here to actually put that treaty into place, but it finally happened.

Since there has been such a high proportion of refugees coming across the border, I wonder if we are able to make any kind of assessment as to how that has impacted our refugee claim numbers. My guess would be that our refugee claim numbers would drop substantially because the agreement provides that any refugee claimant, with a few exceptions, who come to the Canadian border from the United States must go back and have their refugee claims determined in the United States. The agreement works both ways with parties in Canada going to the U.S. being similarly dealt with here.

I wonder if there has been enough experience yet. Could the minister comment on that?

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9:20 p.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Mr. Chair, I have two answers for the member.

First of all, we implement visa restrictions on some countries where we see an excessive number of applicants for refugee determination. We do that after consulting with all of the departments that might have an impact on it, including the Department of Foreign Affairs and the Canada Border Services Agency.

With reference to the question the member asked about some of the consequences of the implementation of the safe third country agreement, it has only been in place for four months, since December 29. We only have about three months of digestible data. In the first month we had about a 50% drop. That dropped about 20% over the previous year and 50% again in April. We have had a reduction on inland claims at airports and other--

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9:25 p.m.

The Deputy Chair

Resuming debate, the hon. member for Louis-Hébert.

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9:25 p.m.

Bloc

Roger Clavet Bloc Louis-Hébert, QC

Mr. Chair, I am extremely pleased to be able to take part in this committee of the whole examination of the Citizenship and Immigration estimates. My feelings are, however, somewhat mixed: pleasure and pride, but mixed with sadness too. I will explain.

I like this format very much. No confrontation, rather like the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration. At least most of the time we strive for that. We work in a non-partisan atmosphere. Regardless of the country chosen, be it Quebec or be it Canada, we can readily agree on one thing: newcomers, the immigrants who make up the fabric of a country, are essential.

I am pleased we can participate in this discussion and exchange views despite our differences. We will agree, or we will disagree, but we will in the end perhaps make more progress than is made with the usual approach to discussions in this House, where there is so much name-calling and we often get nowhere.

So I am pleased to take part in this debate because immigration is so important to me. The primary reason for my involvement in politics is immigration, the people I have seen arrive from other countries, who have chosen a new destination with the hope of being able to live there, who are anxious to do so, but who are often disappointed. They are not disappointed because someone has maliciously decided to make Canada's immigration system a deliberate obstacle to their integration or a threat to their integrity. That is not the way it happens.

I have been a member of the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration for nearly a year now, and I realize what a huge maze the department is, and how people's good intentions can get lost in that maze. People with every good intention on arrival, find themselves driving taxis and do not understand why, when they were engineers back home. Why? Because suddenly their qualifications are not recognized here. Is this done with malicious intent? Rarely, if ever. Yet the result is the same.

Finally, people leave their countries and come here hoping for a new beginning. In the case of refugees, it is sad. The minister is well aware of it. He and I and colleagues working on the committee see some sad cases. We see people who simply want things we consider essential, like seeing a brother or sister again. They are not entitled to do so.

I also feel some sadness at having to intervene in this debate, because I believe, and people will agree—the minister himself will acknowledge it—immigration should come under provincial jurisdiction. This is my point. Obviously, we have not got there yet. And so my intervention will serve to point out the intrusions into areas of Quebec's jurisdiction.

In fact, we are not privileged to have this exclusive jurisdiction, far from it. Instead, we have the Canada-Quebec agreement concluded in 1991. I say instead, because that would change things a lot.

What concerns me especially are all these government initiatives relating to the budget, the votes we are studying, which reach far beyond federal jurisdictions. Strictly speaking, once again, it is an area Quebec considers the federal government has no business in.This is not its area.

I have a number of reservations to express to the minister with respect to the recognition of foreign credentials. We have lab technicians coming from countries where they are fully qualified. I think people on the committee recognized it a number of times. We are back from a Canadian tour, where we heard from witnesses. We heard it in Regina, Calgary, Winnipeg and Quebec City. The phenomenon is the same. Recognition of foreign credentials is not working.

At the provincial level, work is already underway with professional bodies. It makes sense to recognize that the provinces are in the best position to deal with the work done by professional bodies.

In all honesty and with due respect to the minister, things are muddled in the department. I think that, if he stays there long enough, things might become a little clearer. As he said earlier, the lifespan of a minister at Citizenship and Immigration is short. We have already had two ministers. I hope we can count on an incumbent who stays long enough to improve people's fate.

Over the past several years, Quebec and other provinces have developed the expertise needed to appropriately recognize foreign credentials, since this varies from one province to another. The requirements for a skilled tradesperson are not the same in Ontario as they are in Quebec, nor are they the same in Saskatchewan as they are in Manitoba.

I wonder—with all due respect for the minister—why the federal government is interfering in an area of provincial jurisdiction, especially one that has to do with training people and assessing their training.

I find, and I am sure I am not alone, that the business of supply for Citizenship and Immigration Canada involves more than just rearranging some figures. This is not about figures, it is about human beings. We realized this when we were touring and we realize this every day.

From the outside looking in it seems as though we are only concerned with figures: we need this many refugees and that many new arrivals. However, we are dealing with men and women who chose a country. We may not agree on the name of the country they chose. I would say Quebec, others would say Canada, but they chose a new country to live in as free and proud people.

I have a question I would like to ask first and then I will follow it up with a few more. I think that is more or less the format we will use.

Why does the government absolutely insist on causing headaches for the provinces, on provoking disputes in the courts, on wasting time and energy interfering—once again—in a process that is working just fine? It may not be perfect, but it works. Why does the government absolutely insist on entering into an area that belongs to the provinces?

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9:30 p.m.

Vancouver Centre B.C.

Liberal

Hedy Fry LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration

Mr. Chair, currently we live in a country called Canada, in which there are 10 provinces. We have found that when people come to Canada they may come to province A, but then they may wish to move to province B, C or D, depending upon whether there is a job or a family in that province. It therefore is imperative that the federal government play a huge leadership role in coordinating where people can go across this great country.

In order to do that and in order to help get foreign credentials recognized, we have had to deal with every provincial government and every provincial credential recognizing body which have all told us the same thing. All of the credential recognizing bodies, whether they are in the medical professional or engineers, have said that they would like to see a model in which people can be licensed to practise in Canada and--

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9:30 p.m.

The Deputy Chair

The hon. member for Louis--Hébert.

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9:30 p.m.

Bloc

Roger Clavet Bloc Louis-Hébert, QC

Mr. Chair, I thank my colleague for trying to remind us that obviously she is referring to Canada.

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9:30 p.m.

An hon. member

It is a reality.

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9:30 p.m.

Bloc

Roger Clavet Bloc Louis-Hébert, QC

Undeniably, it is Canada.

My colleague should be familiar enough with sections 92 and 93 of “her” Canada. The Constitution Act, 1867, clearly grants—and no one will contest this—exclusive jurisdiction—and I am not saying all combined—for professional bodies to the provinces. That is the law of “her” Canada, as the member should know.

Why is the government interfering in an area of jurisdiction clearly defined in “her” country's Constitution?

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9:30 p.m.

Liberal

Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC

Mr. Chair, I think I answered that. We have worked with the autonomous bodies under law that have designed to decide on foreign credential recognition. They have all said that we need to work across Canada on foreign credential recognition, not simply this vulcanized way of doing it province to province. Most of the provinces we have spoken to have agreed and have been working with us to create this kind of seamless way of recognizing credentials across the country.

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9:30 p.m.

Bloc

Roger Clavet Bloc Louis-Hébert, QC

Mr. Speaker, the other side is talking about balkanization. I will ask the question differently: Is the government trying to tell us that its interference in discussions between the professional associations and the provinces is not slowing down negotiations in all provinces?

The other side must admit that the federal government does not have the same expertise—and I am not trying to be mean—it does not have the same competence as the provinces, which, for years, have been working on the recognition of foreign credentials.

Is the parliamentary secretary opposite telling us that the federal government is better than the provinces at something they clearly excel at, the recognition of foreign credentials?

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9:35 p.m.

Liberal

Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC

Mr. Chair, what the federal government is saying is that neither the federal government nor the provincial governments have expertise in foreign credential recognition. This is done by the regulatory bodies for the various professions. They have the expertise.

As such, we are working with those regulatory bodies who have the expertise and who are charged under the law to decide who could practise or not practise under those professions. Those are the groups who we are working with. Those are the groups who have asked us to work with them.

We are not intervening. We are responding to requests from others to deal with this issue.

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9:35 p.m.

Bloc

Roger Clavet Bloc Louis-Hébert, QC

Mr. Chair, the next question is an obvious one: how can such a policy be reconciled with section 25 of the Canada-Quebec accord, which is well known and well read? This accord states, “Canada undertakes to withdraw from specialized economic integration services to be provided by Québec—”. The Bloc Québécois' researchers are not the ones saying this; section 25 of the Canada-Quebec accord is. It stipulates that “Canada undertakes to withdraw from services”. How can anyone reconcile such a policy with section 25?

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9:35 p.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Mr. Chair, we transfer money to Quebec, the province responsible for integrating those wishing to settle in Quebec to start their new life as Canadians. That is that. It is quite simple. We always respect the agreements.

New arrivals need to be integrated into their Canadian surroundings. If these surroundings happen to be within Quebec's borders, we respect this agreement and provide the provincial authorities with all the money they need to carry out the program.