House of Commons Hansard #125 of the 38th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was energy.

Topics

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, about a year ago I had an opportunity to attend a conference sponsored by the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe. At that conference we received an excellent magazine produced by the United States on this very subject matter. It contained maps showing exactly where these incidents occur and the frequency. Just to look at the research that has been done shows us how serious a problem this has been over all these years. I am very pleased that this legislation has been brought forward.

I would like to ask the member about the sentencing. Sentencing issues have come up. I understand that under Bill C-49 those who are guilty of exploitation could suffer imprisonment for life. Where there is financial gain it could be 10 years. Where there is withholding or destroying of documents it could be up to five years.

I have often wondered whether the sentencing regime that we have related to some of these abhorrent crimes that are committed, like child pornography, child abuse and trafficking in persons, that we need to make absolutely sure that the courts recognize that the maximum sentences are not to be ignored. However if they are being ignored maybe the member could tell us what kind of experience they have had with regard to those matters where something like mandatory minimum sentencing might be an appropriate response to these abhorrent crimes.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Paul MacKlin Liberal Northumberland—Quinte West, ON

Mr. Speaker, the member does raise an interesting perspective to the issue at hand. When we look at it, we see first and foremost what we would refer to as the three p's of this process: the prevention of trafficking, the protection of victims and the prosecution of traffickers.

However, as I was trying to point out in my thoughts today, what we also need to do is educate the public because for the most part the public simply does not recognize that this exists. Our judicial system is part of the public and, quite frankly, they need to be equally informed of the nature of the problem that we have and the response that we believe is appropriate.

How we as a Parliament send the message to those who work within the justice system is usually through defining the nature of the penalty and, in particular, when we talk about the maximum of life imprisonment being one of the utmost of penalties that one can give within our system, we are bringing the message home that when judges examine all of the facts before them they take into consideration the way Parliament views this type of activity.

As I have mentioned before, it is fundamental to all of us that human rights protection, in particular the security of person, is absolutely essential. As we look at the broader picture throughout the world, we will do everything that we possibly can on an international stage, through the UN and through the various protocols that we have adopted, to work together with the international community to achieve the goals of reducing as much as possible this type of activity and if possible to try to eliminate this type of activity.

However on the domestic level this particular bill is extremely important because there are issues where within our own country we need to have the appropriate penalties and the appropriate charges that can be laid and the bill would create those offences that are appropriate. I believe that this would be helpful in bringing forward to the attention of all those involved within the justice system that this is an area where we no longer wish to have this carried out within our country, and that we want these penalties to be meted out appropriately and to bring this matter to an end.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Marc Godbout Liberal Ottawa—Orléans, ON

Mr. Speaker, I surely would like to applaud the introduction of this important legislation. It has been long awaited by people throughout Canada. As was explained to me about the protocol with the United Nations on child trafficking, this must be negotiated and we have to come to an agreement with the provinces.

In his initial consultations with the provinces could the parliamentary secretary tell us what the provinces' reactions were to the introduction of such legislation? I am sure they all agreed with it but how would it be implemented once it is approved by the House?

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Paul MacKlin Liberal Northumberland—Quinte West, ON

Mr. Speaker, there is no question that everyone within this country, both at the provincial and federal levels, mutually understand that this is something on which everyone would work together and try to implement. This of course is within the criminal jurisdiction of the federal government. We are trying to set out the appropriate type of offence that we believe can be properly prosecuted and that there will be convictions within the provincial sphere of the administration of justice. I think this would actually help the provinces carry out their duties because it is more precise and hopefully should lead to convictions that will be relatively easily obtained because of the nature of how we have described the offence within the bill itself.

I believe that there will be no problem with working with the provinces. I believe that this is a process that will be effective and that as and when we come up against these individual cases, we will find the provinces will be able to achieve their goals of effective prosecutions.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to be back in the House and to address Bill C-49 as the justice critic for the official opposition.

The official opposition agrees that trafficking in persons is a modern form of slavery and is a serious human rights violation. The United Nations has reported that human trafficking is the fastest growing form of transnational organized crime. It is little wonder. Local organized crime organizations are drawn to the industry because of the enormous profit potential and the relatively low risk of detection. This is a booming industry that is run by powerful, multinational criminal networks who are well funded, well organized and extremely adaptable to changing technologies.

The United Nations estimates that there are over 700,000 people who are trafficked annually on a worldwide basis, 80% of these people being women and 50% of them being children. Revenues generated globally from trafficking are estimated at approximately $10 billion American. Most victims are forced into commercial sexual exploitation as well as involuntary servitude or debt bondage. Others may be exploited through hard labour in some countries. Children are trafficked to work as soldiers.

Trafficked persons are often duped into their new profession, deceived with seemingly legitimate employment contracts abroad or indeed marriages abroad. Others are simply abducted. Victims are often subjected to physical, sexual and emotional abuse.

Although there are no hard statistics because of the difficulty in tracing these crimes, in Canada the RCMP estimates that approximately 600 foreign women and girls are forced into the Canadian sex trade every year. That number of course is increased when one includes the number of individuals forced into other kinds of labour.

While Canada has a relatively good record on the international stage in terms of efforts to stem the incidence of human trafficking, there is still much work to do. In June of this year the United States state department reported that British Columbia had become an attractive hub for east Asian human traffickers who smuggle South Korean women through Canada to the United States, in large part attributable to the fact that South Koreans do not need a visa to enter Canada.

While trafficking is clearly a global problem that does not respect borders, enforcement is for the most part a domestic issue and Canada needs to take a much more active role in terms of ensuring that this international plague is not increased within our own borders.

I would like to quote Canadian journalist, Victor Malarek, who has written and researched extensively on the global sex trade. He said, “If a country is to be judged on how it deals with this scourge, that judgment must be based on the action it takes to eradicate it. The only thing that will send these thugs scurrying back into the rat holes is the full force of the law -- unwavering prosecution, heavy prison time and confiscation of all profits amassed on the backs of these women”.

I could not agree more with Mr. Malarek. I think though that one then has to measure his observations, the studies that people like Mr. Malarek and other agencies have done and compare them to what Bill C-49 would do.

What the bill would do in many respects is nothing new. It simply would codify in a more succinct fashion existing laws. Yes, it does focus on the issue of human trafficking, but there already are many provisions in the Criminal Code that are applicable to these particular crimes.

Currently the Canadian Criminal Code contains no provision to prohibit specifically trafficking in persons. although in the 2002 Immigration and Refugee Protection Act it did bring in some measures to combat this crime. Specifically, section 118 of the act prohibits bringing anyone into Canada by means of abduction, fraud, deception or use or threat of force, or coercion. Again, many of these laws already exist. Bill C-49 would simply codify and focus the law in this respect.

Bill C-49 goes beyond the current focus on immigration. The proposed amendments to the Criminal Code in Bill C-49 create three new indictable offences to specifically address human trafficking. The first contains the global prohibition on trafficking in persons. The second prohibits a person from benefiting economically from trafficking. The third prohibits the withholding or destroying of identity, immigration or travel documents to facilitate trafficking in persons.

In addition, the legislation also ensures that trafficking may form the basis of a warrant to intercept private communications and to take bodily samples for DNA analysis and permits inclusion of the offender in the sex offender registry.

Simply saying that we will permit the DNA taking or the inclusion in the sex offender registry is not enough. We know that there are numerous loopholes in both the DNA legislation and the sex offender registry. For example, the DNA legislation pales in comparison to the efforts that the British have taken. In Great Britain there are about 60 million people. There are approximately 3 million people in the British DNA database. In Canada, with a population of 30 million people, approximately half, we only have a database of about 70,000 people. Is it because we are so much more law abiding? I would suggest not.

In fact, what is the true case is that over 50% of even the most serious individuals convicted of offences are not being required to provide DNA samples. Quite frankly, this is a deplorable state of affairs. We cannot blame this particular legislation, but we can blame the government for refusing to put in the kinds of steps that are necessary to make our DNA legislation as effective as American or British legislation.

Rosalind Prober from Beyond Borders recently contacted me to talk about the problems with the sex offender registry. If people go to the Beyond Borders website, they will see many of the sex offender loopholes contained in it.

One of the things our government allows is for convicted sex offenders who are on our sex offender registry to leave the country for up to 14 days without giving any notice. These individuals, of course, are going to other countries exploiting youth and women and our government does absolutely nothing. That is only one small example of where the government could actually be taking steps to prevent the abuse of people in other countries by Canadian citizens and yet it simply refuses to do it.

What is important to note as well is that Bill C-49 also expands the ability to seek restitution to victims who are subjected to bodily or psychological harm. I want to talk about how one collects restitution in the Canadian justice system. It used to be that prior to the 1996 amendments to the legislation that the court would enforce restitution. Now, thanks to a bill the Liberals brought in, if one wants to enforce a restitution order, one has to go to court which issues a judgment. The victim gets a judgment. Instead of the court enforcing it through the criminal process, the victim gets a judgment which he or she has to enforce it through the civil process.

There is the spectre of immigrants or other people who may not be as knowledgeable of our legal system or are intimidated by our legal system asking gang members for restitution. Can anyone imagine the ludicrous nature of this kind of law where we put the burden on the victim to collect these restitution orders instead of doing it as the courts used to? The courts used to enforce these orders. Saying that we are going to seek restitution and allow the victims to get restitution is absolutely ridiculous.

Can anyone imagine a poor, little old lady from the north end of Winnipeg going up to the Manitoba Warriors trying to collect a restitution order? That is a sample of the ludicrous provisions we have in legislation. They make great sound bites but they do absolutely nothing.

The other point is that we have new provisions for maximum sentences. Some are 5 years, some are 10 years and some are life imprisonment. The point we have emphasized over and over again is that when Parliament sends direction to the courts about increasing sentences, the courts are very clear in not following those directions. They simply do not follow them. The courts continue to impose the sentences they have always imposed because they have said that the overall direction from the government is not to send people to prison. Instead of enforcing new sentences, all the courts are going to do is look at the general policies set out in the Criminal Code which basically say to divert criminals from prison.

There are many situations where diversion is a good thing, but we know that in these kinds of situations it is not a good thing. These individuals are entitled to house arrest or conditional sentences as they are called in the Criminal Code.

We could compare sentences in Canada to sentences in Great Britain when individuals are actually convicted there. Members should read Victor Malarek's book in terms of the sentences that are imposed in Great Britain and the United States. The problem is that in Canada we simply do not have any mandatory prison sentences that individuals will face if they are convicted. This particular government is fond of saying that there is no evidence demonstrating that mandatory minimums work.

I will just mention for a moment marijuana grow ops. I spent a lot of time this summer in the lower mainland in British Columbia where there are an estimated 8,000 marijuana grow ops. Two days ago I was on a street of 25 houses where there were seven marijuana grow ops including one meth lab and one MDMA lab. This is an area with 8,000 marijuana grow ops, yet the government says mandatory sentencing does not work.

Whereas Canada has hundreds of cases going through the courts where individuals essentially receive a few thousand dollars in fines for operating multi-million dollar grow ops, in the United States, at the same time, there are three or four actual prosecutions because grow ops simply do not exist there to the extent that they do here in Canada.

The difference is that when individuals get caught in the United States for manufacturing methamphetamine or MDMA or getting involved in grow ops, those individuals will go to jail and will go to jail for hard time. Firefighters and police officers who have to raid these places and expose themselves to dangerous chemicals are protected, never mind the neighbourhoods that are subjected to this horrible abuse. Yet the government keeps on saying mandatory minimum sentences do not work.

We know for sure that the policy of the government of allowing these hardened criminals who are putting poison into our children's veins does not work. They are putting poison into our children's veins and they are getting house arrest. The government says that works, but I beg to differ. The Liberal government is killing our children and it does not seem to care.

This bill is only giving lip service to the concept of stopping those who want to exploit women and children no matter what country they come from. As a Canadian I feel that we have an international obligation to help people from whatever country they come from.

We know that the courts will do absolutely nothing in terms of deterring this unless the message is sent clearly in our Criminal Code that if this is done mandatory prison terms will be served.

There is one other point that I want to quickly make. The people who stand to monetarily gain from this are subjected to lower sentences, not life imprisonment. These are the kingpins who sit in the backrooms. They are protected by layers of criminal activity. They are the ones who collect the money. They are the ones who direct everything, and yet they are the ones who get the lower sentence.

Why is it that the government thinks that we should simply catch the people out on the street who are doing the abuse, but leave the criminals who are actually profiting with fewer sentences or lesser sentences when it is so difficult to get these individuals to begin with?

Is this a good thing that we are doing in Parliament today? Yes it is. The bill is a good one, but there are a few basic steps that we could take to make this truly an effective bill that would make a difference.

The first thing we should do is impose mandatory minimum prison sentences for those who want to abduct and exploit women and children in this fashion. Those individuals need to go to jail. It is not enough to say that we are going to leave this up to the courts. It is not enough. Parliament needs to stand up and Parliament needs to give direction in this respect.

I have already mentioned the other points. We must fix the sexual abuse registry, clear up the loopholes, and ensure that those who are convicted for abusing children and women are in fact protected.

Lastly, we have to look at the DNA bill. We took some steps to protect Canadians by improving the DNA bill. The Liberals in the last term wanted to give rapists a free rape or a free murder. We do not agree with that kind of thing. Persons should not have a free sexual assault or a free murder before they get on the DNA registry. That was changed as a direct result of the official opposition standing up and saying that once individuals have been convicted of a murder they should be on the DNA database.

It is not enough to simply say they should also be convicted of a sexual assault or if they have been convicted of a sexual assault, they should also have a murder. It is not enough. If persons are convicted of an indictable offence in this country they should be on that DNA database to give the police the appropriate weapons to ensure that dangerous criminals are off the street.

The government, despite all of its talk refuses to do it, continues to refuse to do it, and is simply putting forward legislation saying that this sends a strong message. Who does it send a strong message to? It does not send a strong message to the courts because the courts are not imposing appropriate sentences. It does not send a strong message to the criminals because they are simply paying fines of a few thousand dollars as a licence to operate and they are back on the streets before the police complete the paperwork.

Who is it sending a strong message to? Is it sending a strong message to the people in our communities who are frightened because of crime? Absolutely not. The only message that it is sending to them is that they are scared to walk out on the streets in the evening. That is the message that the government is sending to the people of Canada in large cities, small towns and in rural Canada.

The opposition is prepared to stand up for Canadians, and protect Canadians and the rights of victims over the rights of criminals that the government consistently wants to protect.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

12:45 p.m.

Yukon Yukon

Liberal

Larry Bagnell LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Natural Resources

Madam Speaker, I will apologize for my comments and question being slightly peripheral to the bill, but the member's entire speech was peripheral to the bill and I have to comment on what he talked about.

As for the higher-ups getting off scot-free, they do not with our proceeds of crime bill. The suggestion that anyone in Canada would like rapists to have free rein was so outrageous that I could hardly take the member's speech seriously.

With regard to mandatory sentences, which is a useful topic for discussion, there are situations where it has been proven that they neither rehabilitate nor protect. In certain situations we need to have flexibility. I will talk about stronger sentences later because I agree somewhat with the member.

The suggestion that some government policy is the reason that courts do not send someone to jail for certain serious offences is ridiculous. It is a system where the courts are independent of the government. I am sure judges do not listen to such direction, which does not exist.

The member was complaining about marijuana operations. Our bill includes stricter penalties and hopefully the opposition would support that. I agree with the point the member brought up about dangerous chemicals. I am glad we have taken steps on crystal meth. I have made the commitment to our firefighters that we will do anything we can to make sure that they are not in jeopardy with these dangerous chemicals.

I do not agree with mandatory sentences in every case, but I would like other suggestions on how we might get stronger sentencing from the courts. In crimes of violence against women or even ending a woman's life, there can be seemingly light sentences.

This afternoon, as everyone knows, from 4:30 p.m. to 6:00 p.m. in Room 340S there will be a reception with the families of the peace officers who were slain in Alberta. I hope all members of Parliament who are listening will be able to attend.

Are there situations in that case where stronger sentences could help? I would like the member to comment on other methods of ensuring that sentences are appropriate in cases where they deserve to be appropriate given that the courts need flexibility for different situations, the number of offences, the motivation behind the offence, et cetera.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

Madam Speaker, when I was with the provincial government we appealed a number of cases where individuals who had been involved in the killing of individuals by motor vehicles and otherwise received conditional sentences. The Supreme Court of Canada clearly said that the direction was from Parliament. The direction came as a result of the 1996 law that the Liberals passed giving conditional sentences not only to non-violent offences, but to violent offences.

It was a policy directive of the Liberal government to tell the courts to stop putting people in jail. That is what the courts are doing. Yes, the courts are independent, but the courts function as a result of the policy direction that Parliament gives them. The policy direction that the government has given the courts is to allow even violent criminals out of jail.

When we deal with the issue of crystal meth, and I support the movement from schedule 3 to schedule 1, from 10 years maximum to life imprisonment, the point is there are still conditional sentences available. The meth dealers who are using the labs and burning houses and causing explosions in urban areas which is dangerous to children, women, men and traffic, will still get conditional sentences because the direction from the government is to provide conditional sentences, house arrest.

If the Liberals want a piece of advice on how to stop that, it would be to abolish conditional sentences. It is not necessary to have conditional sentences because in our Criminal Code we already have suspended sentences. In those cases where individuals do not need to go to jail for one reason or another, suspended sentences are already available. They were always available.

Conditional sentencing is simply an accelerated way of getting people out of jail as quickly as possible and perpetrating the fiction that those individuals are actually serving their time in jail. The courts say they cannot make a distinction between people actually serving their time in jail and people serving their time in house arrest on a conditional sentence. In law it is exactly the same thing. As a Parliament, we are perpetrating a fraud on the people of Canada by allowing that to exist.

One step the government has to take is to eliminate conditional sentences. The second step is for drug dealers and gunmen to have mandatory minimum prison sentences to ensure that they are off the streets.

I support rehabilitation. I support businesses creating job opportunities. I support all kinds of educational and other programs. I support all of those, but children cannot go to school when gunmen and drug dealers are on the streets. Businesses cannot create economic opportunities when gunmen and drug dealers are on the streets.

I met with the business people in Whalley, North Surrey just last week. The entire place looks like Los Angeles. There are abandoned buildings and barbed wire on top of fences. There is no business. People are scared.

There are answers and that is to get the drug men and the gunmen off the streets and get rid of conditional sentences.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Madam Speaker, it certainly sounds like Canada would be a much safer place to live if the Conservative policies were implemented.

In July Karla Homolka was released from prison after serving just 12 years for three murders and a sexual assault. How would the Conservatives' minimum mandatory sentencing have affected the time she served?

On the topic of the national sex offender and DNA registry, would the hon. member please compare the amount of money that has been spent on that registry versus what has been squandered on the long gun registry?

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

Madam Speaker, first, dealing with the Karla Homolka case, this was the case where the Liberals did not want someone who had been convicted of a serious crime in the past to actually go on the DNA registry. It was as a result of the official opposition's work in that respect that that individual now must do that.

I cannot comment on the particular sentence, but what I can say is that the law should prevent returning anyone cold into the community after serving the full sentence, that is, an individual who served his or her whole full sentence and took no steps at rehabilitation and we then turn that person loose. There are some very small preventive steps that can be taken in terms of peace bonds, but they are not particularly effective, as the media reported over the summer.

What I believe should happen in the case of all of these violent offenders is that at the time of sentencing there is that period of incarceration but a mandatory period of parole should be tacked on at the end. Even though the offenders did not rehabilitate themselves during their period of incarceration, at least there would be an ability to supervise.

With respect to the long gun registry, in the downtown streets of Toronto in excess of 40 people have been killed with handguns. The government basically blames the Americans. Those guns might be coming from the United States, but we have an obligation to protect our citizens when those guns are here in Canada. We need to take steps. The $2 billion that has been squandered on the long gun registry has done nothing to prevent long gun violence. Indeed it has not stopped the handgun violence. Mandatory minimum prison sentences are needed for those who are using and carrying handguns illegally.

The government, despite all of its rhetoric and all of the money it has spent on the long gun registry, simply refuses to put those gunmen behind bars. It would prefer to see them under house arrest and back on the streets.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

Bloc

Richard Marceau Bloc Charlesbourg, QC

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to speak to Bill C-49. I note that the debate has wandered a bit in the past few minutes, and would like to get it back on track to the subject we need to address. This is, in fact, a very important and serious subject, one the House of Commons needs to address and act on as soon as possible, since it affects the most vulnerable members of our society.

This extremely important issue resurfaces from time to time in the media. Unfortunately, likely because of its complexity, it has not so far seemed to hold people's attention long enough to result in any effective action against it. Allow me to explain.

We know that organized networks with connections with major criminal organizations are taking advantage of others' distress, young women for the most part, but children as well. Very often, these vulnerable people are ready to do anything at all to escape the poverty they are living in.

The causes of this situation can vary from one individual to another, but there is a common denominator relating to misery, poverty and secrecy. The preconceived idea people have of trafficking in persons is, more often than not, associated with what used to be called, inappropriately to my mind, white slavery.

As I have just said, certain people, mostly women, get recruited for jobs here, in hopes of a better future and with no idea of the real hell that awaits them.

To take a familiar example: young women from the former soviet republics are approached by fake talent or modelling agencies and leap at the chance for a lucrative career in fashion. Others are approached by agencies claiming to be recruiting au pairs, that is young women to look after Canadian families' children. They end up in the clutches of criminal organizations that take away their passports and have well organized rings forcing them into strip clubs or prostitution.

There are other cases even more disturbing than those. Although we cannot take it upon ourselves to quantify or classify the degree of another's misery, it is important to know that, in this 21st century, some of these women end up as sex slaves. They are subjected to unimaginable abuse and constant threats on their own lives or those of people back in their country of origin, children, brothers and sisters, or parents. They live with the constant fear of something happening to themselves or a loved one.

Trafficking in persons is a very broad issue, and I am deliberately dwelling specifically on this grim aspect of the issue, because it is both more insidious and more common around us than we are really aware. I could just as well have brought up the case of refugees, who are often clandestine immigrants, and who are being exploited by unscrupulous businesses in terms of the basic rights of workers or by individuals who reduce them to the condition of slaves by employing them as domestics.

Such situations exist and they are disturbing, but no efforts appear to have been made so far to denounce them.

That is the context in which we reviewed and addressed Bill C-49 and that is why the Bloc Québécois will be supporting it.

Allow me to digress briefly. Until just recently, we MPs got to spend a great deal of time in our respective ridings. I have been asked what bills we would be working on upon returning to the House. Whenever I mentioned the bill dealing with trafficking in persons, people almost always thought that legislation was already in place, that such behaviour was prohibited and that this problem was being addressed. They were very surprised when I told them that they thought wrong and this was going to be on our agenda.

We figure that Bill C-49 will provide police and crown attorneys with better legal tools to fight this trafficking in persons problem, especially where sexual exploitation and forced labour are concerned.

According to official statistics, there are approximately 800 reported cases—and the word “reported” is important—of victims of trafficking in persons in Canada. As one might expect in any such situation, this is probably but the tip of the iceberg.

The environment those involved live in is understandably not exactly conducive to denouncing abuse or effectively seeking resources capable of helping these victims.

We are supporting Bill C-49 essentially because it creates new offences specifically to prevent and denounce trafficking in persons and to hold the perpetrators of the crime responsible.

From a legal standpoint, trafficking in persons is defined as the recruitment, transportation or harbouring of a person for the purpose of exploitation. Although the bill does not mention it explicitly, this offence specifically addresses exploitation in the sex trade and in forced labour.

This bill also legally prohibits, in a broad sense, trafficking in persons for financial gain and the falsification, destruction or alteration of identification documents for the purpose of facilitating the commission of these criminal offences.

Bill C-49 also establishes sentences as serious as imprisonment for life for every person found guilty of trafficking in persons. This maximum sentence of the Canadian system would apply to individuals who, while trafficking in persons, kidnapped, committed an aggravated assault or aggravated sexual assault against, or caused death to the victim, or if they were an accomplice to these acts.

Every person who receives a financial benefit from the forced labour imposed on the victims of trafficking is liable to imprisonment for a maximum sentence of 10 years. Every person found guilty of possessing travel or identification documents such as a passport belonging to a victim, is liable to imprisonment for a term of not more than five years.

As a whole, the bill should be effective in addressing this growing problem and its atrocious social, individual and personal consequences.

The only odd thing is the relative simplicity of the proposed legislation. As I was saying in my introduction, it is a wonder that the government waited so long to tackle this issue head on. The bill includes only eight clauses. It is short and specific but took a long time coming.

To correct the unbearable situation that thousands of people are living in, the Bloc will do everything in its power to move this bill swiftly through the House of Commons and the parliamentary committee. As usual, we are open to any suggestions for improvement from witnesses at the Standing Committee on Justice, Human Rights, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness.

Again, the bill is simple and gets to the heart of the problem.

The concept of exploitation is clearly defined in the context of human trafficking. So exploitation means making a person work or provide services, quite often of a sexual nature, by acting in such a way that victims fear for their safety or that of a loved one if they do not comply with the demands being made. In fact, it would be difficult to be any more specific.

Imagine the stress and fear that prevent an individual from identifying an abuser or pimp, and you get a good idea of the problem we are trying to eradicate here. Add to this the clandestine nature and the international ramifications of the problem, and it becomes a complex issue.

Once in effect, Bill C-49 will provide us with modern tools with which to fight slavery, which unfortunately has also adapted to the reality of globalization.

As I said during my introduction, prostitution is central to the activities of organized gangs, and the recruitment of foreign workers is facilitated by the wretched reality of people misled about the nature of the work they are seeking.

In a 2000 report by the United Nations on the trafficking of women, Canada was among the top 30 destination countries for human trafficking. We all agree that this is less glorious for “the best country in the world”.

This report states that victims of trafficking do not expose their employers, among others, because once identified by the authorities, they will not be allowed to remain in their country of adoption in order to seek protection or demand redress.

In a report published this year, the International Labour Organization estimated that 2.45 million people in the world are victims of forced labour.

The issue we are addressing today in the House is not, of course, restricted to the sexual exploitation of the victims of human trafficking. It is important to keep that in mind, although that aspect is easier to get a handle on. There are, however, also situations of forced labour under physical or psychological threat in such areas as construction, hotels, shipping or agriculture.

Exploitation of one human being by another is present everywhere at various levels, and the International Labour Organization has estimated that the revenue generated annually by such exploitation amounts to some US$32 billion.

Other countries have moved on this more quickly than Canada—and more power to them.

In 2000, the United States passed the Trafficking Victims Protection Act, which created new offences as well as more severe penalties for crimes already included in the criminal code. Victims who work with the American authorities in order to help advance investigations into rings of trafficking and forced labour will be protected from deportation. The United Kingdom, France, Russia and Japan have recently amended their legislation to include provisions on trafficking in human beings.

Finally, passage of Bill C-49, the bill before the House at this time, will move Canada one step further along the road to a better world, and the Bloc Québécois will make an effective contribution to this.

In closing, I will make a commitment on behalf of my party to getting this bill passed as promptly as possible in order to provide our police, prosecutors and the law enforcement community with all the best tools needed to counteract this 21st century scourge as quickly as possible. This is my solemn appeal to all colleagues of all parties: work along with us to get this bill passed quickly, so that such tools will be available for the protection of these people, these women and children, in such great need of our assistance and protection.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his speech in support of Bill C-49.

Much of this debate has been about sentencing issues. It appears there is support for the bill, but the sentencing issues and the ability of the legislation to be enforced has come into question. I am wondering whether the House needs to have a take note debate on things like conditional sentencing, mandatory minimums, house arrest, and so on.

I am sure the member can provide a perspective as he is a member of the justice committee.

My question has to do with the provincial resources available to do the job. We can pass laws to change the Criminal Code but there is the enforceability and the resources, to have the assets available, the officers to do the work, as well as the resources of jails. The fastest growing business in the United States is jail building. The growth industry is jails. The member agrees.

I wonder whether part of the problem related to the bill is the inability of the courts to provide for the incarceration of those who commit abhorrent crimes such as child pornography, or with regard to the bill, the exploitation of the poor.

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1:10 p.m.

Bloc

Richard Marceau Bloc Charlesbourg, QC

Madam Speaker, I would suggest that the member who asked me the question speak with his finance minister and the Prime Minister. Naturally, the provinces are struggling financially and they are having a hard time balancing their books. There is in this country a fiscal imbalance such that Ottawa has means much larger than its needs and, conversely, the provinces have needs much larger than their means. This is the kind of thing a province could do, if it so decided, with the money that it should have.

My answer to the hon. colleague with whom I had fascinating discussions a few years ago, while flying over the North Atlantic, is simply that he should tell his party to address the fiscal imbalance. That would be one way to help these provinces which, unfortunately, cannot always afford to do all they would like to do. They have desperate needs in health and education. Naturally, they have to set priorities, and may not be able to meet all their needs. This is my plea to this hon. colleague.

His colleague, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance, is also turning a deaf ear. He will not even recognize that there is a fiscal imbalance, even though every province and every party in the National Assembly does. This government is the only one with its head in the sand, the only one that will not recognize this fundamental problem currently facing Canada's society and government.

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1:10 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC

Madam Speaker, first I want to commend my colleague from Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles for his fine speech. I might add that he always provides our party with good advice, especially on justice-related matters.

My colleague rightly mentioned the importance of having legislation on trafficking in persons. His constituents, as well as mine, are surprised that we do not already have such legislation.

I rise to ask him whether during any of the research or discussions at the Standing Committee on Justice, Human Rights, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness any other aspects of Canadian policies were examined on whether we might in fact be promoting trafficking in persons.

In the spring there was the whole debate on the lack of certain qualified labourers, namely nude dancers. To our great astonishment we learned, here in the House of Commons, that bars were importing dancers because there was a lack of this type of worker and that for the most part, these dancers were probably being handed over to organized crime.

I want to know if my colleague has any thoughts on the matter. Furthermore, would it not be appropriate during this debate to invite those responsible for justice and labour to examine this side of the issue?

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1:15 p.m.

Bloc

Richard Marceau Bloc Charlesbourg, QC

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank my friend from Chambly—Borduas for his question.

Of course, a problem as important as this must be seen in context and studied in more depth. I can assure him that we will do this. I would also like to underline the work done by my friend, the Bloc critic for immigration. She has studied this aspect. Being a woman herself, she is very sensitive to the problems that people who want to come to this country can face, as well as to the abuses that there can be under the current system. Among other things, this system allows women to enter who might then be exploited. I have spoken with her about this and know that she is very sensitive to it, as am I.

My colleague from Chambly—Borduas is doing a tremendous job in this House. I had an opportunity to see him in my riding this summer. He met people, footwear workers, who were very happy about their discussions with him. And I would like to thank him publicly. I can assure him that we will work very hard to ensure that everything that can be done to fight this 21st century slavery will be done in order to put an end to this scourge as best we can.

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1:15 p.m.

Yukon Yukon

Liberal

Larry Bagnell LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Natural Resources

Madam Speaker, I would like to congratulate the member on his very eloquent speech in support of this government bill. I particularly appreciated his research and the references to international organizations.

I do have to disagree on the suggestion that there is a fiscal imbalance. The member well knows that his province has the same type of tax-creating abilities and expenditure controls. It can increase its income tax, sales tax, et cetera.

Her Majesty's loyal opposition has suggested that one of the weaknesses in this legislation is that there are no mandatory minimums. It was also suggested that we should in general get rid of conditional sentences. One of the reasons given was that there are suspended sentences. I am not sure what the difference is between someone on the street with a suspended sentence and someone on the street with a conditional sentence. I am not sure why that would be better.

Does the member agree with me that there are some offences in Canada where a conditional sentence may be warranted and may be useful in either protecting the public or helping with rehabilitation?

My second question is one which I asked the loyal opposition when we were talking about sentences. Does the member see any way to increase sentences or does he see any need to increase sentences on some occasions for severe sexual assaults or other assaults against women whose entire lives have perhaps been destroyed or taken away? Some sentences appear to be unreasonably light.

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1:15 p.m.

Bloc

Richard Marceau Bloc Charlesbourg, QC

Madam Speaker, I have one minute to speak to you about a subject that is obviously very broad.

I would just like to say that we are not automatically against the very idea of minimum sentences. I myself have had motions to this effect inserted and passed with the help of other members on the Standing Committee on Justice, Human Rights, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness in regard to child pornography and the protection of vulnerable persons.

However, I do not think that this should be a guiding principle of our criminal code. There is no evidence, in most cases, that minimum sentences work.

I had a discussion a few hours ago with my colleague from Marc-Aurèle Fortin, an eminent jurist, great defence attorney and former Quebec justice minister. I could add that this minister left very positive memories of his days in the Quebec government. So I am saying that I am not automatically opposed to this. The cases in which obligatory minimum sentences are inserted in the criminal code must be carefully targeted.

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1:20 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Madam Speaker, Bill C-49 comes out of a reality which I suppose none of us really want to accept.

I always think that I am optimistic in my viewpoint of humanity and progress in the world. One of the points I always make in that regard is that we conquered slavery, slavery that was part of any number of institutional and government makeups from time immemorial. We beat that one. We progressed. We outlawed slavery right across the world. Unfortunately, when we come to the question of human trafficking, the reality is that we have not. There still is a small part of the world, individuals mostly involved in organized crime, who are engaged in what in effect is slavery. There is no other way to look at it.

When I was looking at Bill C-49, I thought, do we really need this bill? There are provisions within the Criminal Code that would deal with what oftentimes is kidnapping, hostage taking, assaults, and more serious violent crimes against individuals. When we look at the scope of the problem, the ultimate conclusion we have to draw is that we do need the bill.

I cannot help but bring this home to my own riding. We have a major crossing in Windsor and Tecumseh and Essex County. In the last five to seven years we have had a series of incidents of trafficking in humans.

We so often hear about young women in particular, and sometimes young men but almost always young women, who are being trafficked for the purpose of the sex trade. But there are others who appear to be used to provide cheap slave labour in the garment industry, the farming industry, which is all in the U.S. There are even people in the service industry, in restaurants and hotels. These people work at way below minimum wage in working conditions that oftentimes are horrible. They are doing so because of threat to their personal safety and oftentimes threats to their family members in their country of origin. We have seen that.

We have had some tragedies in Windsor as a result of this type of crime. There is a train tunnel that crosses between Windsor and Detroit. In the last five to seven years I think there have been three deaths as people were being smuggled through the tunnel. We think at least on one occasion it was one of the smugglers who was killed. The other two were victims of these crimes.

We have seen from some of the victims who have been apprehended that they come from all over the world. They come from Asia, China, Vietnam and India.

As we heard earlier from the Bloc member, a large number of people, especially young women, come from the former Soviet Union and eastern Europe. Some come from the Middle East. Interestingly enough a number of people come from Central and South America. They come up to Canada usually by boat along Canada's shores and then they are smuggled into the United States as what in effect will be slave labour.

There is no question about the problem. We heard from the parliamentary secretary the figure of 700,000 people a year that are trafficked. I have heard figures as high as a couple of million. The problem is there. Canada is one of the countries that is a recipient of this trade, mostly as a conduit into the United States. We have to deal with this problem.

Turning specifically to the bill, we have to ask the question, does it properly address the creation of new crimes? It makes sense to make the offence of human trafficking a specific crime. It would be much easier for our prosecutors and our police forces to obtain convictions if there was a specific charge.

Similarly, the additional charge that is being created which would make receiving a material benefit a crime under our Criminal Code makes sense. That one is often very difficult to establish. It may be taken into account in the sentencing, but right now, simply by showing that somebody has trafficked in humans, perhaps in the form of kidnapping or hostage taking, and then trying to prove that it is a separate crime because one has received a material benefit does not exist in our Criminal Code. The creation of the additional charge makes sense.

Often the victims' passports, travel documents, visas, and personal identification documents are removed from them as another means of control. By creating that specific offence, as is done in this bill, it would attack that conduct and convert it into a serious criminal offence punishable by what I consider to be fairly severe penalties.

I suppose I am speaking not only to the other members of the justice committee who will be reviewing this bill but also to the Canadian people more specifically when I say that one does have to be careful. The bill has significant limitations in terms of how it would be used. In order for us to comprehend that, we have to understand the nature of these crimes.

The vast majority of these crimes are perpetrated by organized crime around the globe. Because of the nature of the traffic in this country, a great deal of that organized crime, and in particular the ringleaders of those crime syndicates are not here in Canada because the crime originates elsewhere, for example, in the former Soviet Union, in Vietnam, or in China. It is in the country of origin where the crime originates. That is where the organized crime head pins tend to be situated. A great deal of the traffic that goes on here is by underlings. I will not say that for the biker gangs which we know are involved in the trafficking in the sex trade. We know that a number of those principals are here in Canada. The bill, if passed into law, would be useful in getting at them. What we and the Canadian public have to appreciate is that we will not get at the kingpins who are elsewhere, whether they are in the United States, in Europe, or in Asia. We will not be able to get at them with this bill.

We do need to take a more proactive position internationally on combating crime at its source. At least since the second world war we have done a reasonably good job of interacting with Interpol in dealing with crimes that are coming out of Europe. We have not been nearly as successful in other parts of the world. That is something we need to work on.

I do not think it can be done with legislation. It is one of those things where as parliamentarians we like to think we can resolve all problems. Maybe the Conservatives do not believe that, but I think the rest of us from time to time think we can resolve all problems by passing laws in this House. This is one of those times when it is clear it is not. This problem is only going to resolve itself, and I say that probably in the majority of cases, by getting to the source back in the countries of origin. That means international cooperation with governments across the globe.

It also speaks to another point. I want to raise the issue of terrorism and the amount of effort we have put into combating that. We have learned a lot about how to prevent incursions into Canada, as the Americans have in the U.S., those ideas, those thoughts and those enforcement mechanisms that we have developed to fight the agent who is coming into Canada on a clandestine operation or the terrorist bent on committing a serious crime. We have become much better at getting at that.

We have not done the same at stopping the flow of human traffic, but we have learned. We can apply those same new thoughts, principles and mechanisms to help fight human trafficking, to stop it from happening in Canada.

We can only do that with international cooperation with police forces around the globe. A good deal is being done at the UN at this time. We have to insist that more be done by countries that look the other way when young women are trafficked out of the former Soviet Union or young workers out of China, Vietnam or India. When governments look the other way, when local police forces and local enforcement agencies look the other way, we have to call them on it. We have to tell them that this problem which originates in their countries is being foisted on us and we are prepared to deal with it here, but we should not have to deal with it, that it should be stopped before it gets to our shores. A great deal of work needs to be done on this issue by our foreign affairs department and through our security services internationally.

I would like to make one more small point with regard to Bill C-49. I have drawn this issue to the attention of the parliamentary secretary. One of the clauses in the legislation is probably going to be redundant, if it is not already, in that it has already been dealt with in Bill C-2, the child protection act which passed in the House and the Senate and is waiting final implementation. There are a couple of other technical matters in Bill C-49 which I have some concerns about as well.

The NDP will be supporting this bill subject to those minor changes, recognizing that it is not a panacea. It is not going to resolve half of the problems we are faced with in this country with respect to human trafficking. Our government has to do more at the international level to effectively combat this problem.

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1:30 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Madam Speaker, the debate has often drifted to looking offshore at other countries, the source from where all these people are coming. Bill C-49 refers to trafficking in persons. The member has suggested that we have to work within those countries through international cooperation. We also have trafficking in persons within Canada. Maybe the bill should be renamed to refer to exploitation of persons, exploitation of seniors, exploitation of children, exploitation of the vulnerable.

I wonder if we are going to have some influence over the initiatives taken in some of the other countries which are the highest perpetrators. Canada cannot just go to those countries and do something without taking a strong stand, defining our values, defining who Canadians are and how we feel about these things, how we feel about the exploitation of persons, the vulnerable, the weak, the poor. That is the kind of Canada we are. We need to say that. We need to express that within this legislation. I am not sure if the words “trafficking in persons” mean what they should to Canadians. We are talking about a piece of legislation that deals with the exploitation of persons and those who are involved directly or indirectly in that exploitation.

I would be interested in hearing the member's comments about what we can do to make a very bold statement about how we feel about the exploitation of persons.

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1:35 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Madam Speaker, I do not think there is anyone in the House or any political party in the country that does not share the values that see trafficking in human beings as absolutely abhorrent. Does the bill go far enough in expressing those values? I am not sure. On the other hand, I do not believe there is any Canadian who would suggest that any member of the House and any Canadian does not see this conduct as abhorrent, and a value, if that is what we are expressing of Canada in wanting to prohibit this, wanting to get to the very root of it and wanting to root it out so that we are never faced with it.

I am not sure there is much more that Canada needs to do at the national level. I am much more concerned about our lack of activity at the international level. We need to play a more forceful role.

If I left the impression that trafficking does not go on in Canada, I did not mean to do that and I do not think I did. We know there is some of it here, but the vast majority of these cases come in from offshore. There is some trafficking in human life here in Canada, but it is very small, according to all the reports that I get. The emphasis has to be at the international level.

By passing the bill, if we need to communicate to doubters in the international community that we are serious about dealing with this issue, fine. It is one of the reasons that we should pass the bill.

The real work that needs to be done here, as I said earlier in my address, is with our security services and foreign affairs. They need to speak forcefully to those countries that allow what is oftentimes corruption to go on in their countries with regard to the trafficking in human beings.

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1:35 p.m.

Northumberland—Quinte West Ontario

Liberal

Paul MacKlin LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada

Madam Speaker, I was very pleased to hear the hon. member make his remarks with respect to Bill C-49. He has caught the true flavour and feeling that all of us have when it comes to dealing with this subject matter.

I am wondering whether he agrees with the approach of dealing with the bill in a way that we deal with exploitation as being a key element. Does he believe that is the proper approach and the approach that really goes to the essence of this issue?

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1:35 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Quite frankly, I have mixed feelings about that, Madam Speaker.

It was interesting when Bill C-2, the child protection bill, was working its way through the justice committee. We heard from a number of police officers who worked directly in the field, and prosecutors. I remember one from Toronto in particular. His entire career for the last 10 years or so was dealing with crimes against children particularly and trying to use the existing sections of the Criminal Code which talk about exploitation in the relationship of the two people involved in the sexual contact. He was very negative on his ability and the ability of the criminal justice system to gain convictions when we use terms like exploitive.

Our courts historically, going back through the British criminal justice system, have not been good at defining it, interpreting it and applying it so that we end up with convictions. I am a bit concerned about some of the wording that we have used in the bill. There is no question that in a number of these cases the relationship clearly is exploitive. In others it is simpler than that. It is slavery. It is slave labour that we are talking about. I cannot help but wonder if we could not make the wording somewhat clearer in those cases.

In the sex trade cases it is much more difficult. However, when people who work in the garment industry in New York City have been smuggled through Canada to get there, whether it is through Buffalo or Windsor, when we see that happening, it seems to me we can simply say that this is a form of slave labour. Perhaps we should be using that kind of terminology.

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1:40 p.m.

Liberal

John Maloney Liberal Welland, ON

Madam Speaker, I am extremely pleased to speak today to Bill C-49, an act to amend the Criminal Code (trafficking in persons).

The bill is important for many reasons. It is important because it would more clearly recognize and denounce human trafficking. It is important because it would provide increased protection to those who are most vulnerable to this criminal conduct, namely women and children. It is important because it would impose increased accountability for those who engage in it. It is important because it realizes what I believe is one of this government's most important commitments: the protection of the vulnerable.

Human trafficking, or the recruitment, transportation or harbouring of persons for the purpose of exploitation, has become the new global slave trade. We have heard this reference to slavery several times today and all the vileness such references conjure up. It is a practice that affects all countries, including Canada, and because of this it has become an issue of prominence and priority for the international community, for Canada and for us regionally, including my region of Niagara, together with the United States and Mexico as part of the new security and prosperity partnership of North America.

The United Nations has estimated that as many as 700,000 persons are trafficked around the world each year. UNICEF has estimated that as many as 1.2 million children are trafficked globally each year.

In May of this year, the International Labour Organization estimated that at least 2.45 million people across the world are in situations of forced labour as a result of human trafficking. Of these, it is estimated that 32% are trafficked for economic exploitation and 43% are trafficked for the purpose of commercial sexual exploitation, with 98% of these being women and girls.

Those estimates show that those at greatest risk of being trafficked are those who suffer social, economic and legal disadvantage, in other words, children and women who are typically trafficked for sexual exploitation purposes or for forced labour.

As a consequence, in support of a stronger response to this horrible crime, I am very pleased to rise today and speak in favour of these proposed reforms which would create three new Criminal Code indictable offences.

The main offence of trafficking in persons would specifically prohibit anyone from engaging in specified acts, such as recruiting, transporting, harbouring or controlling the movements of another person for the purpose of exploiting or facilitating the exploitation of that person. This offence would carry a maximum penalty of life imprisonment where it involves the kidnapping, aggravated sexual assault or death of the victim and to a maximum penalty of 14 years imprisonment in any other case. These are very significant penalties.

The second new offence would prohibit anyone from receiving a financial or other material benefit for the purpose of committing or facilitating the trafficking of a person. This offence would be punishable by a maximum penalty of 10 years imprisonment.

The third new offence would prohibit the withholding or destruction of documents, such as a victim's travel documents or documents establishing their identity for the purpose of committing or facilitating the trafficking of that person. This offence would carry a maximum penalty of five years imprisonment.

These reforms also recognize that the exploitation of the victims is at the very heart of the criminal conduct and so we are proposing to make exploitation an element of the trafficking offence itself.

There are many manifestations of human trafficking. Some of these can be addressed through the trafficking in persons offence in the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act which applies to cross border trafficking and addresses exploitation as an aggravating factor for sentencing purposes.

I believe that the proposed Criminal Code reforms would better enable us to address more forms of trafficking, including trafficking that occurs wholly within Canada. Ultimately, with the proposed Criminal Code amendments, law enforcement officials would have a significantly enhanced ability to ensure that the offence charged, whether it is under these new Criminal Code offences or under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, is the one that best responds to the facts of a specific trafficking case and best achieves our ultimate objective, namely the protection of the victim and effective prosecution of the offender.

I also understand that the proposed Criminal Code reforms have been developed in close collaboration with the interdepartmental working group on trafficking in persons which is currently developing a federal anti-trafficking strategy to coordinate and enhance federal anti-trafficking measures.

I understand that the strategy will focus on preventing trafficking, protecting victims and holding offenders to account in keeping with international standards. There is clearly a continuing commitment to address this serious issue beyond legislative reform. Right now these reforms will help us to achieve these ultimate objectives.

I really believe that the proposed reforms are important ones. They respect the commitment made in our throne speech and underscore our ongoing commitment to revisit our measures against trafficking in persons.

I therefore hope that all hon. members will support the proposed reforms.

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1:45 p.m.

Liberal

Marc Godbout Liberal Ottawa—Orléans, ON

Madam Speaker, I would certainly like to congratulate the member for Welland on his brilliant presentation in connection with this important bill.

The bill gives a definition of exploitation and refers to a number of types of exploitation.

Could the hon. member clarify this? What is included in the term “exploitation”?

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1:45 p.m.

Liberal

John Maloney Liberal Welland, ON

Madam Speaker, human trafficking is all about the exploitation of victims which is why it is a key element of these amendments as we address exploitation directly.

Under these new offences, exploitation would be defined as causing a person to provide labour or services, certainly such sexual services, by engaging in conduct that leaves the victims to reasonably fear for their safety or the safety of others they may know, such as a child or a family member.

Another interesting aspect is that it would also apply to the use of force, coercion, intimidation or deception causing the removal of an internal organ. This is something that has not come forward today but it is certainly a growing concern within this country. Human organs and tissues are certainly things that some people would almost give their lives for because they will lose their lives if they do not get them. It is becoming a matter of increasing concern that people would be forced or intimidated to furnish their human organs for another's purposes and for profit.

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1:45 p.m.

Yukon Yukon

Liberal

Larry Bagnell LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Natural Resources

Madam Speaker, some of the opposition critics have suggested there was nothing to prevent this in the past but in fact the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act already has a specific offence against human trafficking. In fact there have been convictions under that act.

I would just like to ask the member why these new offences are needed when we already have provisions in the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act.