House of Commons Hansard #68 of the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was opposition.

Topics

Criminal Code
Government Orders

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Brian Murphy Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Mr. Speaker, does the member realize that if this bill is passed, there will be many differences between the provinces?

Does the member think that the Quebec model is a good one?

Perhaps he is aware that the Quebec model limits interest rates to 35%, while the Criminal Code limits rates to 60%.

Does he think this is a good model for all of the provinces?

Criminal Code
Government Orders

5 p.m.

Conservative

Jacques Gourde Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC

Mr. Speaker, the tool we will be providing to the provinces and territories will enable them to set their own maximum rates.

We have a very good system in Quebec, and credit unions are firmly established in both rural and urban communities.

We do not have this problem in Quebec, and I think that is because the banking and credit union services provided by Desjardins are closer to the people. I hope that banking services that meet the people's credit needs will develop in other provinces.

Criminal Code
Government Orders

5 p.m.

Bloc

Paule Brunelle Trois-Rivières, QC

Mr. Speaker, as far as this Quebec model is concerned, I would like my colleague to know that in Quebec, payday lenders were abolished through the Consumer Protection Act, which has very strict obligations for lenders of every kind.

The annual borrowing rate has to be indicated on the loan agreement. All fees are calculated in the annual rates. There is no possibility of adding other fees such as record creation fees, form processing fees and so on. The law says that an annual interest rate greater than 35% is abusive.

Why present this bill that interferes in provincial jurisdictions?

Every province could adopt its own consumer protection act and thereby regulate this loan industry, which often includes some very abusive lenders.

Criminal Code
Government Orders

5 p.m.

Conservative

Jacques Gourde Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC

Mr. Speaker, again, in my opinion this legislation will allow territories and provinces to legislate and help this industry that has been around since 1994.

Criminal Code
Government Orders

5 p.m.

Bloc

Guy André Berthier—Maskinongé, QC

Mr. Speaker, I will go back to the question the hon. member for Trois-Rivières asked because her question was not fully answered.

In Quebec, we have a financial system that was implemented by institutions and designed with a view to protecting consumers through a consumer protection network. We are here in this House in the process of developing a new system that may interfere with the one already in place for protecting the most vulnerable from these types of loans.

As my colleague was saying, we are talking about loans with a 60% interest rate. In my opinion, a 60% interest rate is excessive. It practically amounts to usury and exploitation.

I do not understand the need to introduce a bill that interferes in a provincial jurisdiction. The addition of this measure will encourage financial institutions to further exploit the least fortunate in our society, when in Quebec and in other provinces, we already have legislation to protect the most vulnerable and the least fortunate in our society who often use this type of loan. I would like the hon. member to respond.

Why introduce a bill that will harm the most vulnerable in our society?

Criminal Code
Government Orders

5 p.m.

Conservative

Jacques Gourde Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to respond to my colleague's question.

The payday loan system was not regulated. We have a duty to introduce this bill in order to help millions of Canadians.

Criminal Code
Government Orders

5 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Cardin Sherbrooke, QC

Mr. Speaker, when I requested the floor to ask the hon. member a question earlier, it was to remind him that the bill should help not just the provinces and territories, but also the least fortunate in our society.

To come back to what I said in a previous question, this is oddly similar to micro-credit and, in my opinion, it is the financial institutions—which make outrageous profits—who should take responsibility.

Criminal Code
Government Orders

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Jacques Gourde Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC

Mr. Speaker, I think that our bill will solve the payday lending problem.

Criminal Code
Government Orders

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Brian Murphy Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in the House today to speak to Bill C-26, an act to amend the Criminal Code with regard to criminal interest rates.

This bill is in fact designed to regulate the payday lending industry. This will be done by limiting the interest rates lenders can charge Canadians.

I am quite pleased as well to see that the minority government is taking advantage of the hard work done by previous Liberal ministers of industry and justice. In introducing this bill, it surely gives a sign that what we were doing before was just fine.

It is flattering to see Canada's new government actually putting forward many bills that were in the past proposed by Liberals. Despite what my colleagues on the other side of the House may be saying, they are acting as if what was done before was going in the right direction.

It was the previous Liberal government that worked with our provincial and territorial colleagues to build the consensus necessary for the legislation that we are discussing today. Currently, section 347 of the Criminal Code of Canada makes it an offence to enter into an agreement or arrangement to receive interest at a criminal rate or to receive a payment that is at a criminal rate.

It is interesting to note that section 347 was introduced initially to deal with the practice of loansharking and its links to organized crime. It was not always the written signed agreement under the shiny lights on the main streets of our cities that these arrangements were entered into, but often in the back alleys and through very informal discussions.

Although section 347 has been interpreted as applying to most lending arrangements in Canada, including payday lending, it was not intended to be consumer protection legislation or a consumer protection tool for economic price regulation when it was first introduced. It would seem that section 347 was attempting to capture criminals who looked like criminals and not criminals who look like storefront entries as many of the payday lending institutions of today's currency do.

In fairness, the Canadian Payday Loan Association itself, unlike the characterization of the member for Winnipeg Centre that would have us believe is made up totally of criminals, is in fact proposing this legislation which will be of benefit to consumers and the people we represent.

However, let us look at the scourge of the bad payday lending experience and what it has visited upon our citizens. In British Columbia a judge ruled in a class action that a payday loan company charged criminal interest rates when it included its late fees and processing fees as interest. That is what the court ruled. The ruling is expected to influence the outcome of many decisions. It is an instance of where the judiciary has stepped in to characterize as interest what may be seen as fees and thereby impinging some payday loan arrangements.

Last year in Ottawa, a small claims court judge ruled that two payday loan companies suing clients for unpaid debts, this is ironic, were themselves avoiding the law and breaking the law. The facts as they came out were that a loan of $280 rose with interest and penalties to $551 per month. That is an annualized interest rate of more than 2,000% and these people had the temerity to bring it to court to get their money.

The judge could not rule that it was in violation of the law because that was not the dispute in front of the court, but it shows the boldness and frankly, the arrogance of some payday lenders in charging that amount of interest and standing by it as if it were not more than 60% which is clearly set out in the Criminal Code.

Bill C-26 would not put an end to payday loans. The industry could easily continue to operate, but it is going to operate with controls. It is important to note that the legislation does not apply to loans over a certain amount, $1,500 and over a certain length, 62 days. This act does not replace the Criminal Code.

I think a principal theme of our discussions today on this bill must address the paucity in the Criminal Code itself to deal with the crime. So anything that is over 62 days that is over 60% ought to be prosecuted.

In studying the bill, we have learned that there are very few prosecutions. It is time for the government to take this information, as if it did not know it before, and tell the administration of justice officials, both federally and provincially, that we have a section called 347 and it should be enforced. If it is true, but we do not know because we have not had a full hearing on section 347, that only a prosecution or two have been made under this section in the last few years, something has to be done about that. The bill will not cure any of the in excess of 60% in loans that are longer and larger in duration than what it attempts to cover. However, it is a start, it is good legislation and we should support it.

It means, however, that the provinces and territories have to get their acts together. I am very hopeful that the new federal government has kept good relations with all the provincial counterparts and has, like we did before, an easy discourse of opinion on how to best influence reasonable rates, like the province of Quebec has administered for some time under its consumer protection legislation.

Several provinces, including New Brunswick, have already announced their intention to regulate payday lending once this bill is passed.

I know that the new Liberal government in New Brunswick will address that situation as soon as this is done.

I know T.J. Burke, the new attorney general for the province of New Brunswick. He is the first aboriginal attorney general in Canada, and he is an excellent law official. Once this legislation passes, I know he will be looking to the models across the country, specifically the model in Quebec, which seems to give to our citizens the best consumer protection.

Payday lending is a growing industry in Canada. Virtually non-existent in 1994, the industry is believed to have grown to more than 1,300 outlets in just 10 years. That is why perhaps this law is just coming to us now. We probably all saw the industry grow, but empirically did not know that 1,300 outlets existed across Canada. Nor would we know, if we are not users of the services, what horror they are inflicting on our citizens.

The number of payday loan outlets now outrank the number of offices of the Royal Bank of Canada. Therefore, it is important to underline that this is not just a Main Street, Stellarton, one-off issue. The bill is dealing with a Canadian issue.

Only 850 or so of these institutions are represented by the Payday Loan Association. They have been very forthcoming in lobbying for a bill to protect consumers. I would suggest to go halfway to also ensure that they have an existence after the passage of the legislation.

One thing we may consider, as the bill travels along the process to committee, whether we will strengthen the legislation and attempt to affect and to curb the impact of usury on our citizens.

I cannot say this strongly enough. While VISA cards regularly get 28%, the province of Quebec has chosen 35% as a ceiling interest rate. I cannot say strongly enough how we, as parliamentarians, in the moral persuasive stance that we have with provinces and territories, might suggest that the Quebec model is a good model for the citizens who we share as electors.

The significant growth of this sector is actually hiding the dire situation facing many Canadians.

A few years ago, holding a full time job was enough to support one's family. Unfortunately, that is not necessarily the case anymore. Times have changed. Many Canadians work full time, and some even work more than one job, but that is still not enough to support their families financially. There lies the real tragedy.

We are doing just a bit to help the working poor in this situation.

As a former member of an Open Hands Food Bank organization in Moncton, New Brunswick, food banks are no longer visited by the very poor and destitute only. They are often visited by the working poor, people who work as a couple with minimum wage jobs, people who need to have two minimum wage jobs, people who have children or people who have a letdown in hours at the video store, one of their minimum wage jobs. This means they are forced to go to the food bank or, as I say, le vrai drame, to the Money Mart, to get a loan at a high interest rate to pay the rent, to have groceries and to ensure their children can go to school.

Does it make sense to borrow money from someone who is going to charge an outrageous interest rate? Of course not. The fact is, however, an increasing number of Canadians have no choice. They have generally been turned down for loans at the chartered banks and other financial institutions. Although many of them have full time jobs and a steady source of revenue, many have no choice but to go for the short term, high interest rate loans to survive between pay cheques.

The real tragedy is that in 2006 working hard and having a job might not be enough to support one's family. I find it troubling that more and more Canadians cannot meet their everyday living costs. In recent years many social groups have pointed out that the number of citizens living under the poverty line is growing and that having a full time job does not necessarily protect one from poverty in today's world. This is very unfortunate, something that is compounded by the fact that if a person goes in to borrow $280, that somehow turns into a $551 per month payment. We are doing something, but very little to help that problem.

While we say the bill is good, what about the social safety net that the new government is putting out for the people who are left to have 60% interest loans, from the legal Money Marts, for 62 days for amounts under $1,500?

Let us not over blow what step this small bill is toward the journey of helping us help the working poor. If we combine the statistics of the working poor, the increased usage of our social service agencies, with the major cuts that the Conservative government announced three weeks ago, it is now clear the new government does not care about those most in need, the poorest citizens and the minorities throughout our country.

Let us face it, the Conservatives are leaving the most vulnerable behind. A true national child care program, aboriginal health initiatives, literacy funding, homelessness, affordable housing initiatives, these were all mechanisms to help low income families, they very people who are most victimized by the ravages of the Payday Loan Association members.

All the measures I suggested have been cut and cramped in the recent Conservative announcements, such as national child care, teaching children how to succeed in life, literacy, teaching children and adults that they can read and they can get better jobs, tackling the homeless initiative, which was once made a very national and prominent program under the former member for Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, the hon. Claudette Bradshaw, are all gone as priorities in the government.

Although the government will do some lip service to the Payday Loan Association, mainly because it is a good lobby and it might get some credit for helping the working poor, it is really saying it will not go that far and reinstitute programs, which were of national importance for eradicating the spectre of cyclical use of social services and organizations, such as payday loan institutions.

The same low income family that works hard to survive but cannot afford to put money aside for rainy days is forced to live from paycheque to paycheque. Exactly the same people are being denied loans from banks and they end up at the payday loan services, probably just before or after they go to the food banks. Before having to do this, they probably had time in their day to get some literacy training, or they may have been able to access some child care initiatives. However, they are not going to be any better off with the Conservative government as the years go by.

The real point is that this is a good step in a long road. The Conservative government must understand it entails much more than just initializing a law that was started by a former government, which is a needle in a haystack with respect to the battle against poverty, especially among the working poor.

This bill will ensure that those who turn to payday lenders do not fall victim to questionable practices, criminal interest rates and unfair collection techniques. More importantly, it will help make sure that they are not sucked into the vicious circle of debt and outstanding loans.

Bill C-26 is a positive, necessary step in the right direction and it battles loansharking, but it does not do enough at this point. The House should encourage all provinces and territories to look at the model is the model of Quebec. I hope this will happen at the committee stage.

As we move along the legislative process, we find that many of our models for a just and fair society have come from the province of Quebec. Programs like the national child care program and the legislation for consumer protection are best modelled in Quebec. In our discussion we should encourage the provinces to follow those examples.

The finance minister for the province of Manitoba is in the process of deciding how to deal with the brief put forward by the Payday Loan Association. The president of the Payday Loan Association says that Manitoba's proposed law is in line with the code of best business practices adhered to by its members. It operates 800 of the 1,350 payday loan offices in the country.

What is not known is the fee cap the province would set. The finance minister, Mr. Selinger, is proposing to make fees and rates on payday loans subject to public review by the local public utilities board. If the Quebec model is not the model provinces choose to follow, by having consumer protection legislation govern the scheme, then the model of having the public utilities board review rates of interest that can be charged by payday loan associations, which survive this document, would be very preferable.

We seem, as the federal sphere, to have gone away from consulting and advising the provinces with respect to best practices, and not necessarily mandated practices. By this I mean giving them a cheque and telling them they must do this or they must do that. Rather do it in a true constitutional sense, as partners that share the same citizens, the people who vote for them vote for us, and suggest they look at the models, which include the Quebec consumer protection legislation and the suggestion of the very wise finance minister in Manitoba of public utility board regulating interest rates.

The public utility boards across the country are made up, by and large, of non-partisan people interested in consumer protection in the areas of energy and transportation. In this case, Manitoba would invade the field by suggesting interest rates on short term loans would be properly in the public domain of the public utilities board. In many provinces public insurance is dealt with at a provincial level and the rates of insurance are decided by a public utilities board.

Again, this is a very good step. It follows on Liberal legislation, which was being thought of before the government fell. It is enough at this point to say we support it. However, at committee perhaps suggestions as to the how, not the why, the bill will play out across the country can be discussed along with our desire as parliamentarians to ensure the bill is implemented in as even a fashion across the country as possible.

In closing, I thank the citizens ofMoncton—Riverview—Dieppe for giving me their input on this most egregious example of lending at usurious rates. I assure them, in supporting the bill, that it is not a cure, not the be-all and end-all. It is a tiny step on the long road to helping the working poor in our country.

Criminal Code
Government Orders

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Ken Epp Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB

Mr. Speaker, I think we are losing sight of something that is important here and that is the magnitude of the problem.

The member opposite talked about usurious interest rates and the member for Winnipeg Centre before him talked about the way credit card companies are ripping us off.

Let us take an interest rate of 18%, which is the rate of a typical credit card. I would like to ask the member this. Let us say he was walking down the street and a stranger approached and said, “Will you lend me $100 and a month from now I will give you $101.50, if I happen to show up, with no security?” Would he lend the stranger the money? I suspect he would not. Yet to charge $1.50 on a $100 loan for one month is 18% per annum.

I think we need to get away from the idea that the fee charged is a straight interest charge. We know that many short term loans go into default, so the money is gone. These companies do not get the $101.50. They do not get the original $100 back. It is gone. For them to charge a little more because of the risk of the situation I do not think is terribly unreasonable.

Furthermore, to charge $2 for a $100 loan for a month hardly covers the cost of the employees and certainly not the cost of the store for which they have to pay rent, utilities, taxes and so on. They are going to charge maybe $2 or $3 for a $100 loan for a month. That is a service they are providing. If we take that away, then our poor people have nothing.

I have other questions, Mr. Speaker, but just from your posture of sitting on the edge of the chair I know I have to shut down for now.

Criminal Code
Government Orders

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

Brian Murphy Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Mr. Speaker, very briefly, I would not dare to guess what the hon. member's community is like, but I suggest that it is fairly similar to mine. In my community, the owner and operator of the Money Mart is not the chamber of commerce president. He is not the Rotarian president. He is not a person in society who symbolizes best business practices.

In short, it is a very risky business in terms of loaning money. That is why loan sharks are in it. They like risk but they also have enforcement, and I see no difference between the example of Louie G., posited by my friend from Winnipeg Centre, who would break a leg, I suppose, if a loan were not repaid, and the owner of the payday loan business, who would basically bankrupt a person into not being able to afford the necessities of life.

Criminal Code
Government Orders

5:25 p.m.

Bloc

Guy André Berthier—Maskinongé, QC

Mr. Speaker, I think that the remarks of the member opposite are somewhat out of sync with my beliefs.

The question we have to ask ourselves is: why do people borrow money at rates as high as 60%? Often, these are disadvantaged people faced with a lack of money, services and community support.

After slashing the literacy program for women and Aboriginal people, why do the Conservatives continue to take advantage of the most disadvantaged with their devastating policies?

Criminal Code
Government Orders

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

Brian Murphy Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Mr. Speaker, I completely agree with the question.

Once again, I support the province of Quebec's model. Thirty-five percent is plenty. Sixty percent is in the Criminal Code. Personally, I find that interest rate incredible and criminal. It applies in Canada. For the fourth time, it is better in Quebec.

The House resumed from October 19 consideration of the motion.

Opposition Motion--Economic and Fiscal Position
Business of Supply
Government Orders

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Andrew Scheer

It being 5:30 p.m., pursuant to order made on Thursday, October 19 the House will now proceed to the taking of the deferred recorded division on the motion of the member for Markham—Unionville relating to the business of supply.

Call in the members.