House of Commons Hansard #74 of the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was chair.

Topics

Human Resources and Skills Development—Main Estimates 2006-07Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

8:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Deputy Chair Conservative Royal Galipeau

I will recognize the hon. the minister to reply to that question, but I would like to remind members of the official opposition that they had their turn and this is the time slot for the government. So whatever time was used for this question will be added to the government's time.

Human Resources and Skills Development—Main Estimates 2006-07Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

8:05 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Mr. Chair, we recognize how important it is to get people who arrive in this country to work using the skills they bring. Since I took on this department, I and my deputy have spoken with all the provinces and territories because a lot of this is under provincial and territorial jurisdiction. Over 440 regulatory bodies are under provincial jurisdiction and over 200 educational institutions that present credentials and recognize credentials for newcomers. We are working with them very closely to expedite this process.

Human Resources and Skills Development—Main Estimates 2006-07Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

8:05 p.m.

Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre Saskatchewan

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Minister for Democratic Reform

Mr. Chair, I want to make a couple of comments and ask the minister a specific question because I find it odd that we have members opposite saying that with the billion dollar expenditure reduction that this government implemented it affected Canada's most vulnerable.

Could the minister comment on the fact $47 million of that billion dollar expenditure reduction came from reducing the size of cabinet? I suppose only Liberal members could think that federal cabinet ministers are among Canada's most vulnerable. I would suspect that they think that way because, as all Liberals, the taxpayers' money is really not important, it is what use the money is to the Liberals.

I would suspect that the minister might have some comments on why a $47 million reduction in the size of cabinet would result in good value for Canadian taxpayers.

Human Resources and Skills Development—Main Estimates 2006-07Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

8:05 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Mr. Chair, it is true that we have been much more efficient than the previous government. We take a broader view of things. Combining, for example, human resources and skills development along with social development has allowed us to break down the silence that existed when developing new programs.

Much of our work on the economy and the labour market will require various programs to work together, not in competition but that they complement each other so that going forward we have a comprehensive, cohesive, integrated plan to address the needs of the market and the economy, something that did not exist with the previous government.

Human Resources and Skills Development—Main Estimates 2006-07Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

8:05 p.m.

Blackstrap Saskatchewan

Conservative

Lynne Yelich ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Human Resources and Social Development

Mr. Chair, could the minister tell the House why she thinks our universal child care is in fact is in fact the best and most equitable way to address parents and families today?

Human Resources and Skills Development—Main Estimates 2006-07Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

8:05 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Our government recognizes, Mr. Chair, that a one size fits all day care plan just does not work for Canadians.

Canadian families have a wide range of needs. Some need nine to five, Monday to Friday. That is fine. Some need weekends. Some need evenings. Some work night shifts. Some have seasonal demands if they work in agriculture. Some need part time. Some children have special needs.

Our universal child care benefit provides $100 a month directly to the parents of each child under the age of six regardless of the circumstances, but that money will help each parent access the choice in child care that meets their family's unique needs.

Human Resources and Skills Development—Main Estimates 2006-07Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

8:10 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC

Mr. Chair, is it time for questions or for debate?

Human Resources and Skills Development—Main Estimates 2006-07Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

8:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Deputy Chair Conservative Royal Galipeau

Resuming debate.

This round belongs to the Bloc Québécois.

Human Resources and Skills Development—Main Estimates 2006-07Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

November 1st, 2006 / 8:10 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC

Mr. Chair, I would like to use my time as follows: I will speak for three or four minutes, then I will ask some questions.

I plan to use my first three or four minutes to bring another perspective to the debate. The minister painted a rosy and sentimental picture of what is actually a dramatic situation. It is deplorable that a person in her position, with enormous responsibilities—as she stated earlier—takes those responsibilities so lightly.

I would remind the members that in the matter of employment insurance, fewer than 40% of people who lose their jobs are eligible for employment insurance benefits.

I would remind the members that older workers find themselves in a terrible predicament as the job losses add up, especially in the softwood lumber and textile industries, to name just two. The minister has not yet responded to this situation by providing income support to older workers.

Poverty has escalated dramatically. The Canadian Association of Food Banks says that over the past year, child poverty has increased and in Canada, 880,000 people—including 314,000 children—regularly rely on food banks.

If so many of the poor go to food banks for their food, it is not because they have decided to change restaurants. It is because poverty is a reality and one of its causes is that the social safety net for individuals who have the misfortune of losing their jobs, among other things, is falling apart. The last two parties in power played a major role in this.

Even more serious is the fact that the money to support these individuals was available. The employment insurance account, funded by employee and employer contributions, generates surpluses year after year. This year they will total more than $2.15 billion. Over the past 12 years, more than $50 billion has been diverted from the employment insurance account and used for other purposes. It is a reality that the minister is ignoring and which she does not wish to address here.

I will appeal to the compassion and a certain sensitivity of the minister so that she gives the real answers to our questions.

One of the ways to solve this problem is to give back control over their money—money that belongs to them, the employment insurance account—to workers and employers.

I am getting to my questions.

The rules of the House state that the answer must be no longer than the question. My questions will be brief and explicit and I hope that the minister's answers will be brief, explicit and clear. And now for my questions

Last year, the Conservative Party voted in favour of the Bloc Québécois' Bill C-280, to establish an independent employment insurance fund. The minister voted for the bill last year. This year, does she approve of the bill that we tabled in order to establish an independent fund?

Human Resources and Skills Development—Main Estimates 2006-07Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

8:10 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Mr. Chair, this is one of those cases where I admit that I reserve the right to be smarter today than I was yesterday. I have learned from experience, particularly in this job, that my understanding of the need for a separate EI account was based on erroneous information. At the time I thought it was a cash account. It is not. It is a notional account. What I did not understand before I got into this job was that that EI surplus had actually been spent as part of the consolidated revenue fund to the benefit of all Canadians, so no, I do not support that position any longer.

Human Resources and Skills Development—Main Estimates 2006-07Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

8:15 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC

Mr. Chair, I would like to ask the minister when she had this flash of insight. Does the minister feel that the Prime Minister lacks judgment?

On May 1, in response to a question about the separate fund from the leader of the Bloc Québécois in this House, the Prime Minister said, “We share the Bloc leader's philosophy on this”.

Does this mean that the minister is now smarter than the Prime Minister, who recognizes the need for a separate fund?

Human Resources and Skills Development—Main Estimates 2006-07Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

8:15 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Mr. Chair, to be perfectly candid, the Prime Minister and I have not discussed this particular subject recently, but part of the reason for my recent decision that this might not be the best option to pursue is that we are now in the first year of a new rate-setting process, whereby an arm's length, independent EI Commission, based on actuarial evidence, reviews the rates and sets the new rates. This was not done before.

We are in the first year of this new process. I would like to give it a chance and see how it works. Maybe it will be a much more efficient, much more effective system. Since we are trying it, and since we have almost a year's experience behind us, I would like to give that a chance.

Human Resources and Skills Development—Main Estimates 2006-07Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

8:15 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC

Mr. Chair, this is a major about-face in the space of a month and a half. As recently as September, in response to another question from the leader of the Bloc Québécois, the Prime Minister said, “As the leader of the Bloc knows, our party supported the idea in the past. I am on the verge of proposing to the Minister of Human Resources and Social Development—that is you—that she formulate alternate measures for this government”.

What alternate measures, Minister?

Human Resources and Skills Development—Main Estimates 2006-07Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

8:15 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Mr. Chair, we are looking at a number of different alternatives regarding the EI account and the EI program in general because it is so broad and because so many Canadians depend upon it.

One of the issues is that of looking at the best rate-setting mechanism, the best way to ensure an effective and efficient use of funds. We are also trying out several new programs. We have just launched a targeted initiative for older workers. We also launched the five week pilot project to help seasonal workers who are experiencing a gap. We are trying to get going with trying out new programs to make sure that we can get the best EI system possible.

Human Resources and Skills Development—Main Estimates 2006-07Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

8:15 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC

Mr. Chair, this still runs counter to the minister's thinking. When the minister voted last year on Bill C-280, which sought to create a separate fund, she said—and it was the resolution that said this—“Employment insurance funds should be used strictly for the employment insurance plan”.

Recently, when the government declared a $13 billion surplus, that $13 billion included $2.118 billion belonging to the employment insurance fund. Her government used that money to pay down the debt.

Is the minister telling us that she has changed her mind and now agrees with the diversions that are still going on today?

Human Resources and Skills Development—Main Estimates 2006-07Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

8:15 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Mr. Chair, this is a new process that we are going through with the new rate setting. The target is to break even so that we do not have to even address the situation of surpluses in the EI account.

Quite frankly, if the hon. member, who has devoted a lot of time and energy to this particular issue, and I congratulate him on that, would really like to discuss the previous enormous surplus in the EI account, I would suggest that he direct his questions to the previous government. That government is the one that created it.

Human Resources and Skills Development—Main Estimates 2006-07Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

8:20 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC

Mr. Chair, I believe the minister is the only one who does not know that there is a surplus in the EI fund. This year, the total is $2.118 billion. Over the past 12 years, year in and year out, there has been an annual surplus of between $2 billion and $7 billion.

I urge the minister to familiarize herself with the situation. I understand that she does not want to promise here today to create a separate employment insurance fund. That would involve reneging on some campaign promises.

Since the minister does not know if there is a surplus and does not know what approach to take regarding the EI fund, I would like to talk about improvements to employment insurance.

The Bloc Québécois introduced Bill C-269, which would improve the EI system. Among other things, the Bloc proposed a minimum of 360 hours worked to be eligible for employment insurance. Do you agree with this number of hours?

Human Resources and Skills Development—Main Estimates 2006-07Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

8:20 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Mr. Chair, I have several concerns with this bill, in particular the number of hours. My understanding is that the proposal would allow for someone to work for a short period of time to collect long term benefits. That is not what we need in this country at this point in time. We have, across this country, a shortage of skilled labour and unskilled labour, in many parts of the country. It behooves all of us to make sure that as many people who are capable are engaged in that workforce and contributing to the growth of our economy. That is why we have to provide incentives to work, not incentives not to work.

Human Resources and Skills Development—Main Estimates 2006-07Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

8:20 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC

Mr. Chair, I hope the minister knows that, sometimes, people want to work, but there is no work for them.

Does the minister agree that such people should be eligible for employment insurance after accumulating 360 hours of work? That is my question.

Human Resources and Skills Development—Main Estimates 2006-07Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

8:20 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Mr. Chair, with our targeted initiative for older workers, we are helping people get re-skilled to get back into the workplace and be productive. We do not want to pension off those workers in the 55 year old to 64 year old age bracket. We do not think they should be treated the way the Bloc has suggested, by being put out to pasture. We think they have a lot to contribute. That is why there is funding there, including income supports, to get them re-skilled, to get them work experience, and to give them the tools they need to even apply for another job.

Human Resources and Skills Development—Main Estimates 2006-07Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

8:20 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC

Mr. Chair, unfortunately, a question has been raised on a certain matter and the minister talks about something else.

I am not talking about older workers at all. There are also younger people who are unemployed. It seems the minister must verify that, as well.

Does the minister agree with the notion of increasing EI benefits, which are currently 55% of income earned, to 60%? Does she agree with this proposal in Bill C-269? Does she understand what I am talking about?

Human Resources and Skills Development—Main Estimates 2006-07Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

8:20 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Mr. Chair, as I said before, rather than increasing benefits to pay people not to work, we need to focus on getting people to work, on getting them the skills they need to be gainfully employed and on getting the opportunities and the economic development going so the jobs are there.

Quite frankly, we already face a shortage. It does not make sense to pay people not to work. Most people I know have the option of learning. That is why we are investing so much in skills, skills development and workplace skills, whether it is our apprenticeship programs, our workplace skills development or our entrepreneurial programs.

Human Resources and Skills Development—Main Estimates 2006-07Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

8:20 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC

Mr. Chair, does the minister realize that there is a shortage of manpower in some regions of Canada, while there is unemployment in other parts of the country?

Let us take the workers in the Abitibi region. They were laid off because sawmills closed their doors. Does the minister wish to send these workers to Alberta? Is that what she wants to do?

We have to be realistic. I want the minister to answer my question. Does she realize that when people are unemployed, it is not by choice, it is because there are no jobs in their region? Is the minister aware of that? If so, will she improve their employment insurance benefits?

Human Resources and Skills Development—Main Estimates 2006-07Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

8:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Deputy Chair Conservative Royal Galipeau

I would like to advise the minister that the time has run out but I will allow the answer to this question.

Human Resources and Skills Development—Main Estimates 2006-07Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

8:25 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Mr. Chair, quite simply I come from an area that is facing the same kind of problem where for a variety of reasons we have a lot of unemployment. What we are looking at is economic development. That is what we need to focus on. Our targeted older workers initiative is designed to work with economic development to create the jobs.