House of Commons Hansard #92 of the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was debate.

Topics

MarriageGovernment Orders

8:05 p.m.

NDP

Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

Mr. Speaker, the member's argument is that gay and lesbian relationships are merely based relational. They do not meet the standard that he sets for a marriage relationship. Yet he seems to let childless couples off the hook very easily in his analysis. I think he said it was just a departure from the norm.

Why is so easy to make an exception in that case, when childless heterosexual couples seem to fly against his argument and be merely a relationship? He seems unable to allow gay and lesbian couples the same stretch of his argument, for instance, in that case.

MarriageGovernment Orders

8:05 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Mr. Speaker, my point is that gay relationships are inherently sterile and that is just simply a biological statement of fact, in the absence of some intervention of a third party or some technological intervention of some kind or another. They are qualitatively different if we take the view that the core issue, the core reason for marriage is the creation of children and societal perpetuation.

MarriageGovernment Orders

8:10 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Lemieux Conservative Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am honoured to rise today on behalf of the people of Glengarry—Prescott—Russell to speak on this important motion regarding marriage.

I highlight that since having become an MP, I have never received so much correspondence as I have on this extremely important issue. My constituents are overwhelmingly asking me to vote in support of the traditional definition of marriage.

When I say traditional marriage, I mean the union of one man and one woman to the exclusion of all others. It is important to note that marriage is an institution dating back to the dawn of humanity that has existed in all civilizations. This institution predates even the existence of the state, and this House's efforts to change the traditional definition of marriage are damaging not only to Canadian society but to all societies, especially those for whom Canada is a role model.

As one of my colleagues noted, by changing the definition of marriage, the previous Liberal government undertook a radical social experiment whose consequences for children, for social stability, for freedom of religion and for civil society are completely unknown.

In June 1999 Parliament overwhelmingly voted in favour of the sanctity of marriage as being the union of one man and one women to the exclusion of all others. The then Liberal justice minister, Anne McLellan, stated:

The definition of marriage is already clear in law. It is not found in statute, but then not all law exists in the statutes, and the law is no less binding and no less the law because it is found in the common law instead of in a statute.

Marriage is unique in its essence; that is, its opposite sex nature. Through this essence, marriage embodies the complementarity of the two human sexes, playing a fundamental role in Canadian society.

“Let me state again for the record that the government has no intention of changing the definition of marriage or of legislating same sex marriages”. Those were the exact words of the Liberal justice minister during the 1999 debate.

Canadians have now seen that the last Liberal prime minister and justice minister double-crossed them. In 2005 the Liberal justice minister tabled a bill to change the traditional definition of marriage against the will of Canadians. He, with the previous prime minister, rammed it through committee, were antagonistic toward committee witnesses favouring traditional marriage, cut short debate and then forced their cabinet ministers and parliamentary secretaries to vote in favour of their bill, with no regard to the personal consciences of these MPs or to the will of their constituents.

Only one cabinet minister broke ranks, resigned from cabinet and voted to defend traditional marriage, the member for Thunder Bay—Superior North. I salute him for his integrity, his courage and for the example he has given other MPs to always do what is right, no matter the consequences.

I also salute all the other MPs who stood to vote in defence of traditional marriage that day. May we work and vote together on this particular motion that is before us this week.

In my experience, Canadians from all walks of life know that marriage is fundamentally important and that it means the union of one man and one woman to the exclusion of all others. People from other countries know it too.

I also believe that people know that the institution of marriage exists to secure, protect and promote the union of a man and a woman, not just for the sake of the man and a woman themselves but also for any children born of this union.

Marriage concerns not only adults. Marriage concerns families and families concern children. Children need a stable environment in which to grow and mature. A healthy family founded on the traditional definition of marriage provides just this environment.

Marriage is the nucleus of the family and the family is the main means by which society sustains itself, perpetuates itself and grows.

I will now speak on the impact of marriage on the most valuable and yet the most vulnerable members of our society, our children. I believe children thrive in families and families are based on marriage. While the essence of this debate concerns adult relationships, we must recognize that the debate on marriage has a direct impact on the welfare of our children.

As it is the goal of the government to protect its citizens, particularly its most vulnerable citizens, it is, indeed, appalling that the previous government turned its back on the most important and fundamental component of our country, our children.

To be clear, defending the traditional definition of marriage is also about defending the rights of children and of defending their best interests. Our children are entitled to the best possible circumstances in which to be raised. Studies have demonstrated that this best possible circumstance is the family, consisting of a mother and a father in a continuous and stable relationship.

When the Canadian Parliament voted to change the definition of marriage, I believe it did so without giving any consideration whatsoever to the rights of children. There is no mention of children in the Liberal government's reference to the Supreme Court and none in the reply. The rights of children and the impact of changing the definition of marriage on children were completely ignored.

The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, which Canada signed in 1991, states that every child has the right to know and be raised by his natural mother and father whenever possible. Article 3 of the same UN Convention states:

In all actions concerning children, whether undertaken by...courts of law...or legislative bodies, the best interests of the child shall be a primary consideration.

In addition, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights specifically states that the rights of children must take the priority over the rights of adults because children are more vulnerable and require the support of the state.

By failing to recognize the special nature of marriage as a union based on mutual commitment between a man and a woman, which is the only relationship that can produce a child and protect that child's right to know its mother and father, Canada is putting the rights of adults ahead of the rights of children. That is unacceptable.

Children have been ignored within this debate. We have focused on adults to live as they so choose, but we have forgotten our children.

The children of same sex couples are deprived of the right to be raised by both a mother and a father. They do not have role models in the home to teach them and to show them how to be wives and mothers, husbands and fathers and they do not have the opportunity to experience how a man and a woman live out their married life.

I believe that defending traditional marriage is about doing what is right, what is good and what is best for our children. Therefore, marriage between a male and a female must hold the priority of place for the raising of children and must be maintained in order to safeguard the rights of children.

It is interesting to note that France's parliament recently undertook a thorough study of same-sex marriage and published a report on the subject in January 2006.

A French commission studied the impact of same-sex marriage on children and found that the best interest of the child must supersede the freedoms of the adult, including parents' lifestyle choices.

In order to protect the rights of children, France's parliament chose to support the traditional definition of marriage.

As I mentioned, I am honoured to stand in the House today to defend and promote the traditional definition of marriage. I am also a Roman Catholic and the church in its wisdom teaches that:

The intimate community of life and love which constitutes the married state has been established by the Creator and endowed by him with its own proper laws...God himself is the author of marriage.

The church also teaches unchangingly that marriage is a covenant in which husband and wife express their mutual love and join with God in the creation of a new human person destined for eternal life.

A major good of marriage between a man and a woman is procreation, that of bringing new life into the world. It is through marriage that the children of that union are best cared for and nurtured. Our children are our future and they must be protected. This issue of marriage must be revisited.

I also remind my fellow MPs that our time as an MP is short, even when we think it is long, and when we cease to be MPs, sadly, we will likely be forgotten by our fellow man, but not by God, who knows each of us intimately.

If God himself is truly the author of marriage, then let us be able to give a good account of ourselves when we stand before Him as we must all stand before Him.

I will be voting in favour of the traditional definition of marriage for us, for my children and for the children of our country. I ask all MPs in the House to join me in voting to defend and promote the traditional definition of marriage.

I shall conclude my speech as follows, “Almighty God, protector of all families, guide us in our efforts to defend the holy sacrament of marriage as the union between a man and a woman. I ask You this in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Amen”.

MarriageGovernment Orders

8:15 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, the member may want to vote for the traditional definition of marriage, but we are actually voting on a motion to introduce a piece of legislation.

The reality is that we are faced with a judiciary which in the Ontario Court of Appeal decision basically discredited the family and said it was discriminatory to deny same sex couples equal access to marriage. The Supreme Court also in looking at it accepted the reasons for the decision and decided that it would not overturn that decision nor the subsequent decisions in other provinces.

Having said that, it leaves us with this predicament that this motion is asking Parliament to call on the government to introduce a piece of legislation to reinstate the traditional definition of marriage. However, based on the Supreme Court decision and the decision of those lower courts which were never appealed, that piece of legislation simply to reinstate the traditional definition of marriage would not be charter-proof and in fact would be unconstitutional.

If that is where we really are, I ask the member, since he knows that the only way to reopen this matter is to invoke the notwithstanding clause, is he prepared to recommend to the Prime Minister that the notwithstanding clause be invoked so that we can reverse the definition of marriage?

MarriageGovernment Orders

8:20 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Lemieux Conservative Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Mr. Speaker, what we just heard is nonsense. It is the smokescreen that was put up by the Liberals during the last debate.

The Supreme Court did not rule on marriage. If it did, would the hon. member please table its decision so we in the House can read it and so Canadians can see it. What it said instead was it belongs to the purview of the House to define marriage. That is what it said and it rests here in the House.

We are looking to have an open debate on the issue of marriage and to have a free vote in the House. We did not have an open debate the last time. It was cut short. The bill was rammed through the House. It was rammed through committee. The Liberal Party did not have a free vote. The NDP did not have a free vote. We are encouraging all parties to allow their MPs to vote in accordance with their conscience and to vote in accordance with their constituents.

MarriageGovernment Orders

8:20 p.m.

Liberal

Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC

Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member made some very good points about children. In fact, in my past speeches in the House with regard to this issue, I have spoken about children, because as a physician, I have delivered the children of same sex couples. I have delivered the children of lesbians who have carried the child to full term just like any heterosexual woman. I have delivered the children of gay couples. This is exactly about children. This is about giving all children in Canada the equal right to be legal under the law, to have the legality of marriage which currently they are being denied. If we truly care about children, we need to do this in order to give those children a place in society that is legal and full and equal to all other children.

I would ask the hon. member, if he truly believes in children, how then could he vote in favour of this motion?

MarriageGovernment Orders

8:20 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Lemieux Conservative Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Mr. Speaker, I stand by my words. If the member opposite is so concerned about children, why is it that the party opposite voted against providing $1,200 to families for children under the age of six?

More to the point, this does concern children, and children have a right to a father and a mother. The rights of children take priority over the rights of adults in the way that they want to live or the way that they would choose to live.

I read within my speech excerpts from UN conventions which recognize the right of children to be in families. The best place for children to be is in a family that consists of the union of a man and a woman in a loving and stable relationship.

MarriageGovernment Orders

8:20 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Zed Liberal Saint John, NB

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to speak to the government's motion to restore the traditional definition of marriage. I have some very serious concerns about the wording of this motion which I find very vague and misleading.

I would like to turn the attention of the House back to a vote we held in the last Parliament on Bill C-38, An Act respecting certain aspects of legal capacity for marriage for civil purposes While this bill contained some proposals that I agreed with, it also sought to do something that I fundamentally disagree with, namely to change the traditional definition of marriage. When that bill came before the House, I voted against it. I voted against it for a fundamental reason, namely, I believe in the traditional definition of marriage, marriage as defined between a man and a woman. For me, this is a matter of my own personal faith and conscience.

However, as both a parliamentarian and a lawyer, I believe in the equality of citizenship of all Canadians. This includes providing same gender relationships with the same legal protection and the same benefits under the law as all other Canadians enjoy.

I believe in the separation of church and state. My difficulty with C-38 was that it sought to change the definition of marriage. I fundamentally believe that churches and other religious institutions alone should define marriage. Government, on the other hand, should simply register these relationships or unions. These were some of the reasons that I voted against the legislation in 2004.

Today the Conservative motion we are debating is one which I find to be seriously flawed. As parliamentarians we have to make responsible decisions for our constituents and with our constituents. We have to know what we are voting for and with this motion we do not know. This motion does not define what the government classifies as a civil union for example. It fails to define what rights and protections would be guaranteed in these relationships. If on the one hand the House is voting on a motion to produce legislation to restore the traditional definition of marriage, how can the proposed law at the same time respect existing same sex marriages?

This is a clear and irresponsible contradiction which I cannot and I will not support. We are all equal before the law. The proposed legislation that the motion calls for would create three classes of citizens in Canada and this is simply unacceptable.

If the government were serious about this issue and not simply playing politics, it would have prepared legislation so that we could study the implications of voting on this motion. It has not done so. This too is unacceptable.

Sadly we have come to expect this type of underhanded approach from the government. It is a government that is dividing the country, pitting one region of the country against another, pitting one group of Canadians against the other. It is a government that is far more interested in crafting policy based on right-wing ideology than on what is best for Canadians.

I find it sad that the government is playing politics with an issue that has been so divisive for Canadians. I believe that the role of the federal government is to unite Canadians from all over the country, not to pit one group of Canadians against the other.

The motion that the government has presented to the House of Commons is divisive. It is vague. It is misleading. Frankly, it is unconstitutional and legally unenforceable.

Let me be clear in conclusion. I support the traditional definition of marriage as between a man and a woman, but I will not be a pawn in the hands of the government as it tries to drive a wedge between Canadians. I will not vote for something I have already voted against.

MarriageGovernment Orders

8:25 p.m.

Conservative

Bradley Trost Conservative Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK

Mr. Speaker, I listened with interest to my hon. colleague's remarks. I hope he will understand that there are members from at least three of the parties in the House who are interested in the traditional definition of marriage as he said he was, and the goodwill not to worry so much about the politics but the principle.

With that in mind, I ask the hon. member how he would have it worded so he could again vote with the traditional definition of marriage. How should the government have worded the resolution so that he would find it acceptable and he could then join the members in this House who would do it in all good conscience?

MarriageGovernment Orders

8:30 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Zed Liberal Saint John, NB

Mr. Speaker, that is part of the dilemma that all of us faced when we looked at this resolution. The first part of the resolution states, “That this House call on the government to introduce legislation to restore the traditional definition of marriage”. If the government had stopped at that point, that might have been palatable to all members, but it goes on to state, “without affecting civil unions”. I read the right hon. Prime Minister's platform and he specifically did not make reference to civil unions. The motion goes on to state “respecting existing same-sex marriages”. This would create three classes of citizens: those prior to the legislation; those governed by Bill C-38; and should the motion pass, those who would be part of a third group of Canadians. All of it would be unconstitutional because different classes of Canadians would be created.

MarriageGovernment Orders

8:30 p.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

Mr. Speaker, I think the member and I fundamentally agree. We both believe in the traditional definition of marriage. But we cannot get there without agreeing to reopen the debate in the first place. We can certainly talk about how this may create three classes of citizens, but we can do that in the debate.

If you believe in traditional marriage as you profess to do, please vote in favour of the motion.

MarriageGovernment Orders

8:30 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

Order. I would remind hon. members that there has been the odd lapsing into the second person which I have tried to ignore. Please try not to do that.

MarriageGovernment Orders

8:30 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Zed Liberal Saint John, NB

Mr. Speaker, that is where the devil is in the details, to be blunt.

If the government were genuine about its intentions, it would not play politics by muddying the waters, by preserving existing same sex marriages when it claims that those were unconstitutional. Members opposite have spent quite a bit of time and have invested a lot of their political capital in alleging that the then government rammed it down everyone's throat and does not create a level playing field for partisanship. It does not allow all of us to move in the best interests of the country.

MarriageGovernment Orders

8:30 p.m.

Conservative

Maurice Vellacott Conservative Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK

Mr. Speaker, I feel that the hon. member across the way and I are on the same wavelength in respect to this issue and the fundamental importance of heterosexual traditional marriage.

It seems to me to some degree he is twisting himself into a bit of a pretzel here by complicating the issue, and I say that respectfully. I appeal to my colleague to simplify the issue. Why did the member opposite not propose an amendment? If the member is sincere in wanting to get an adjustment so that it would be more palatable to him, then he has the option of moving an amendment. I leave it with the member. I ask him not to unduly complicate the issue for himself.

MarriageGovernment Orders

8:30 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Zed Liberal Saint John, NB

Mr. Speaker, I respectfully agree with the hon. member on this point. If there were an opportunity or a possibility to create an amendment, that would have been appropriate. I agree with you. However, we are in a situation where that is not procedurally possible and, as a result, we are stuck with this particular resolution. That is the first problem in answer to your question.

The second issue though is that I still wonder how genuine the Prime Minister was when he came forward with this. Frankly, if the whole purpose of the government's caucus was to restore the traditional definition of marriage, then that would have been a simple thing to put forward. I would throw your question back to you, sir, and say that perhaps you should talk to your own caucus and propose your own amendment.

MarriageGovernment Orders

8:35 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

Again, the hon. member was using the word “you”. Perhaps it is debate fatigue, but please try to refrain from doing that.

Resuming debate with the hon. Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development.

MarriageGovernment Orders

8:35 p.m.

Winnipeg South Manitoba

Conservative

Rod Bruinooge ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development and Federal Interlocutor for Métis and Non-Status Indians

Mr. Speaker, I would like to begin by thanking my colleagues for the opportunity to speak on a matter that is very important to me and Canadians.

Our government is proceeding with a free vote on the definition of marriage, which is exactly what did not occur during the last debate on this matter. I wish I could be making this speech under better circumstances, but since that is not possible, I am going to present before the House, my constituents and this nation the unfortunate truth of the matter. The truth is the following.

This Parliament is being compromised in its democratic principles. The House of Commons of the 39th Parliament in truth would vote in favour of restoring the definition of marriage to its traditional form if an actual free vote was held. Among those who believe in restoring marriage are members from all parties. I know this because I have spent much time over the last nine months speaking with members from all parties.

I have done my research in an exhaustive manner and the unfortunate tragedy is that the true score may not be the final tally when the votes are counted tomorrow. This is because in our day, at a time of supposed intellectual freedom and open minds on a foundational issue of such importance and consequence, members of Parliament are at this very moment being pressured, either by outright and open oppression by their leaders or through hidden but powerful political pressure by these very same people, to vote against their conscience and against the will of their constituents.

I believe there are enough members in the House, composed of both men and women, who are personally and intellectually convicted that marriage should be restored to its traditional form. I believe these members represent the will of Canadians across our country, but many in this majority that I believe exists have been suppressed into silence.

If this vote fails, it will be for this reason and the traditional family will be further damaged in a time when it has been constantly under assault. So, it is with disappointment that I say that unless leaders relent or members are inspired to stand against this intellectual suppression tomorrow, the voted will of the Canadian people may in fact be thwarted again and democracy will suffer another blow as seems to have often happened on pro-family issues.

At the eleventh hour, I would like to take the opportunity to make a two-fold plea. First, I plead with opposition party leaders. Each of them hold democratic ideals. They believe in freedom of thought, honesty and integrity, which are essential ingredients for a healthy Parliament. These things they have championed in Quebec and Canada during every election campaign. Yet, at this crucial moment in Canadian history, they are either openly or discreetly attempting to seal closed the intellects and tape shut the mouths of those who oppose them.

They are seeking to impose their own will upon Canada in a manner that betrays the very founding principles of our democracy and society. They are also violating the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. The first and most fundamental freedom listed in the Canadian charter states that each person has the freedom of conscience and religion and, second, the freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media communications. How can it be that in our Parliament, the heart of our nation, members are being forced to express and vote the very opposite of that which they believe and think?

This is not a partisan speech. I do not believe that this should be a partisan issue. I do not care at all for winning political points on this matter. How can any of us play politics with the family? On my part, I refuse. I have worked with members from all parties in the House and encouraged them on this important matter. I have found friends and allies in all parties who have fought with me in defence of traditional marriage and the family.

Of these many allies, I am fortunate that I am allowed the freedom to speak my mind on this issue and to vote as my intellect bids. I feel that we must all be allowed to do the same and so it is with trust, hope and goodness that I now make my plea. I would ask leaders of the opposition to please encourage their members to vote in accord with the way they really think.

I make another plea. I plea to every member in the House. I know that throughout the year politics and partisanship unfortunately take up much time in the House and issues sometimes suffer because of it. Today we should put that aside.

I can speak for no one but myself, though I am sure many others share my thoughts. I would like to suggest that when members cast their votes tomorrow, they should cast it as free persons, for the good of Canada, and based on their own intellect and how their conscience instructs them.

At this point, I would also like members to consider freedom of culture. As an aboriginal Canadian, I would like to point out that most within my community are in fact the most traditional, family-oriented people in the country. It is a requirement within my culture to consult one's elders on important matters such as this. My elders have clearly told me that small, isolated aboriginal communities must continue to teach their children that marriage is between a man and a woman. One elder told me, “What message would we be giving our communities if we did not teach our children the importance of traditional marriage?”

Another gave me a powerful example. She said, “Consider the colour orange. You could define it as being a combination of both red and yellow. If someone decided that orange should now also be defined as a combination of red and red or a combination of yellow and yellow, what would orange mean to you? The word would be without meaning and you would have to create an illusion in your mind to reconcile this deception”.

I can tell members that people from all backgrounds are starting to realize the brave new world that Bill C-38 brought us into. It is an undefined path with unknown consequences. One thing that has been demonstrated by Bill C-38 is that Parliament, through its elected members, has the ability to change the legal definition of marriage. It has already done so just last year.

In the future, Parliament may also choose to alter this definition, based on the will of the people or the courts. Who can predict what future rulings the courts might impose on marriage?

The Canadian Parliament has a majority of MPs who may in fact vote in favour of restoring the definition of marriage, though some will not be allowed to vote the way they want to. Tomorrow, I will be able to vote freely, with honesty and integrity. I hope that my colleagues in this House will be allowed to join me. If it is permitted and if democracy works tomorrow, then this House will move that marriage be restored in its traditional form and Canadians will prevail.

MarriageGovernment Orders

December 6th, 2006 / 8:40 p.m.

Liberal

Charles Hubbard Liberal Miramichi, NB

Mr. Speaker, like all members in the House, I listened very intently to the hon. member. In fact, all of us have to recognize the sincere concerns that we have as members of Parliament representing people across this country and, more important, representing everyone and not just particular interest groups.

I voted against Bill C-38 and I spoke in this House on trying to retain the historic and Christian definition of marriage that so many of my constituents have. Even at that time, we were recognizing that marriage in Canada had a very complex definition. Not only is our federal government involved with marriage according to our Constitution but, very significantly, each province issues marriage licences that enable people to become married. In fact, when we dealt with that issue and voted on it, we found that many provinces, Ontario being the lead, were offering marriage licences and people of the same sex were being united in matrimony.

How would the member answer a question in terms of what federal rights we have as federal politicians to deny the province of Ontario the right to issue marriage licences?

Second, it is deeply troubling to me that a government which has a leader whose responsibility is to lead Parliament, to bring bills to this House and define legislation that he wants debated in this House, has not had the leadership ability to lay a bill before the House and instead went to his House leader--

MarriageGovernment Orders

8:45 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

Order, please. There is only so much time. We have five minutes and there are other members who want to ask questions.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Indian Affairs.

MarriageGovernment Orders

8:45 p.m.

Conservative

Rod Bruinooge Conservative Winnipeg South, MB

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate that the hon. member opposite did vote for traditional marriage in the last Parliament and I hope he votes that way again.

The Prime Minister of Canada made a commitment to Canadians to offer the opportunity to have a vote here in the House of Commons to see whether parliamentarians would like to have the debate re-entered into. In fact, that is what we are doing today. We are polling parliamentarians to see if they would like to consider bringing in legislation to define marriage as being traditional in the way that it was previously.

I think this was a reasonable approach that was taken and, clearly, people on this side as well as on the other side would like to see that occur. I am hopeful that tomorrow the vote will go the way that I have been talking about but I appreciate--

MarriageGovernment Orders

8:45 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

The hon. member for Windsor—Tecumseh.

MarriageGovernment Orders

8:45 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Mr. Speaker, I was listening to part of this debate in the lobby and I felt compelled to come in and ask a question. I must first tell the member that I was somewhat offended by his comments.

I say that in this light. Tomorrow, when this vote occurs, it will lose by about a 2:1 ratio. Does the member believe that somewhere between 150 and 200 members of this House will not be voting their conscience tomorrow? Does he believe that many people are being forced by their leaders to vote that way or is it in fact the reality that those 150 to 200 people who vote tomorrow in this House against this motion are voting their conscience?

MarriageGovernment Orders

8:45 p.m.

Conservative

Rod Bruinooge Conservative Winnipeg South, MB

Mr. Speaker, I know that in 1999 there was an overwhelming majority of individuals in the House who voted to uphold traditional marriage but, of course, in 2005 the margin was a different way.

I believe that with changing seats in the House there are new individuals who have entered into this place who are very much alongside on this issue in terms of their traditional views. I believe that, unfortunately, members from the Bloc have also had a whip on this vote. There has been an active campaign to bring in the 28 or so Liberals that remain in this House to vote against this motion. Unfortunately, if we had those numbers in place this motion would pass. Nonetheless, that campaign is on and all I can do is simply attempt to appeal to those individuals and ask them to change their mind.

MarriageGovernment Orders

8:45 p.m.

Liberal

Ken Dryden Liberal York Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, this is a difficult matter for many Canadians and many parliamentarians.

When one is a regular citizen, one has a right not to have a public opinion, to remain quiet, to say “I do not know”, to be unsure enough to decide even not to make up one's own mind, let alone influence others. As a member of Parliament, I lose that right. I have to stand and be counted because a decision must be made, yes or no, and the public has the right to know what I decide so they can decide about me.

I bring no special expertise to the issue of same sex marriage. I went to church as a child. I loved hymns and, at times, the feeling of church, the quiet and community of it, the getting dressed up, the family together and the niceness of it. I did not read the Bible except to memorize a few parts for Sunday school. I found the 10 commandments interesting for what was included and what was not. I thought the name “The Golden Rule” pushed a little hard and yet I am not sure I have heard 11 such simple, non-pushy words, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”, that offer a better personal or societal path to life.

Not many years ago, I decided to read the Bible from beginning to end. The experience only confirmed what I had vaguely felt for most of my life, that the Bible offered the best thinking and understandings of a time, a place and people. It reflected how people explained to themselves the world, how the world worked, how people should behave and what would happen if they did not. Much of the wisdom of the Bible has held up in different times and places for different people, but to me no wisdom is timeless. Each is challenged by a new time. Some pieces of wisdom last, some do not.

In thinking about same sex marriage, I have only the experiences of my own life to go on. I am not sure when I first heard the playground words kids used for homosexuals. It was certainly many years before I knew what they meant. The words were intended to punish, to hurt. They said, “You are weak”, “You are not a man”.

By the time I knew better what they meant, I do not think I ever believed that anyone I knew really was one. There were rumours and whispers intended to put down somebody someone wanted to put down. Somebody somewhere surely must be one, I knew, but nobody in my world. I have since come to know that kids I knew very well, kids in my own class, were gay or lesbian.

I have thought how impossibly hard it must have been for them. As teenagers, all of us had to struggle so hard to figure out what was going on in our own bodies and minds, having strange things begin to happen to us, which surely were not normal and must make us bad. What would the other kids think if they knew? What would our parents think? There must be something wrong with me, darkly, dirtily wrong, and we were the lucky ones, the ones who never had to confront the possibility that we were going in the unthinkably wrong direction. We had only to find a way to do acceptably what was acceptable.

What must it have been like for the others? How often must they have thought themselves hideous and unspeakable?

In more recent decades, I have seen what this exclusion has done to people. I have seen them forced to twist and contort themselves to hide and pretend just to get the chance to do the things they wanted to do in life, having about them one big fact that to others completely defines them.

I think now about the untold lives this has directed and shaped and the untold lives it has destroyed. This is so far from being right, it is outrageous.

I grew up knowing that marriage was something that involved a man and a women. Kids eventually seemed to be a part of marriage because that is how life worked, but they did not have to be, as many very good marriages did not produce kids. I thought marriage was something that people did when they loved one another so much that they could not stop themselves from committing to each other privately, and then in a public ceremony, vowing that they wanted to be with each other forever.

I never thought of marriage as something that could involve a man and a man or a woman and a woman. I never thought about a man and a man or a woman and a woman loving each other in a marriage way. I have thought about this question more in recent years. How do I feel? Like most people I think, not entirely comfortable.

Life is hard, even when we live on the majority side of things, of race, language, culture, religion, sexuality. Our biggest challenge as human beings is to get along, to learn about each other, to accept differences, to give the same chance to others to live their lives as we would like them to give to us and to allow others to share fully and completely in the world.

It is also hard to have to think again in a different way about something we had always experienced differently, like marriage. I think the great majority of Canadians on either side of the same sex marriage debate are not 100% sure or comfortable. That is important to know. In the midst of this often heated debate, it is hard not to be swayed, usually in the reverse direction, by the words and tone of the advocates who scream their certainty, who tell the rest of us that we must surely be stupid or at least depraved if we are not as certain as they are.

It is okay to be 60-40 or 70-30 on this. As the debate more and more attempts to polarize us, it is important to know that on one side of the question or the other, most of us have more in common than it seems. It is important to know because it will help us immensely to get along again, as we must, when all this is done.

All these decades later, with the vote ahead of me, where am I? For me, man and woman, man and man or woman and woman, marriage is for two people who love each other, who want to be with each other and who privately and publicly commit to each other. I support same sex marriage and I will vote against the government's motion.

MarriageGovernment Orders

8:55 p.m.

Winnipeg South Manitoba

Conservative

Rod Bruinooge ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development and Federal Interlocutor for Métis and Non-Status Indians

Mr. Speaker, as we have seen that the definition of marriage has been redefined, does the hon. member feel that this definition could perhaps include other groups in the future or is this definition now cast in stone?