Debates of Dec. 6th, 2006

Marriage

[Robert Thibault, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I would say to the member that the motions they are putting forward in this House will not promote openness or unity, either in the country or in the House. This motion is very divisive.

The motion that is put before the House today reads:

That this House call on the government to introduce legislation to restore the traditional definition of marriage without affecting civil unions and while respecting existing same-sex marriages.

What is this? The government does not agree with Bill C-38 which became the Civil Marriage Act. The Conservative Party did not agree with it when it was put before the House. There were a few very courageous people on the Conservative side who voted with the Liberal government at that time to pass the bill. The Conservatives did not agree with it. They know, as I do, that it is very difficult to change. Rather than have the courage to do what the government should do and propose a bill, the Conservatives have proposed a motion.

I will make the government and the Prime Minister very happy because I will vote against this motion, which is exactly how the Conservatives want us to vote. They do not want this motion to go through. The Conservatives know that if this motion went through, they would have to go to the next step. They would have to put a bill before the House and they have already said that they will not.

The primary responsibility of a government is to put before the House a bill that is constitutionally valid. The Conservatives know that they could never get the Department of Justice to recommend that a bill which reinstates the traditional definition of marriage without using the notwithstanding clause is constitutionally valid. They would have to fire everyone and hire again. They are not above that, but I do not think they will. They will not do that.

I do not believe that reopening the debate would change the outcome. The process would be harmful to many. The House has spoken. This issue has been debated at length and Canadians have made up their minds on this matter.

The Conservative motion is disrespectful of the democratic process and undermines the charter, the very principles upon which our political system operates.

Legislation to amend civil marriage has been before Parliament since 2003. It has been considered by parliamentarians since 2002. Draft legislation was referred to the Supreme Court of Canada, I believe in 2003. The matter was debated at length in the House of Commons and was sent to the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, where we heard countless hours of testimony from expert witnesses on all sides of the issue.

Parliamentarians had the opportunity to speak at length on this issue. We have had a full, open and honest debate.

In June 2005 I voted in favour of the current law at third reading. My decision to support Bill C-38 was not made lightly. This has been a very difficult issue for many Canadians, involving deeply held personal and religious beliefs and convictions.

I made my decision after hearing from many of my constituents on both sides of this issue and participating in hours of debate here in the House of Commons.

One of my earliest concerns, echoed by many of my constituents, was that the same sex marriage bill would compel religious officials to perform marriage ceremonies that are contrary to their beliefs. Our current legislation affirms the charter guarantee of religious freedom and has been guided by the ruling of the Supreme Court of Canada.

The Supreme Court has declared unanimously that the guarantee of religious freedom in section 2(a) of the charter is broad enough to protect religious officials from being compelled by the state to perform civil or religious same sex marriages that are contrary to their religious beliefs.

Religious leaders who preside over civil and religious marriage ceremonies must and will be guided by their own beliefs. If they do not wish to perform marriages for same sex couples, it is their right to refuse to do so, plain and simple.

The charter is one of rights, but it is also one of freedoms. Ours is a secular society and the separation of church and state is the strongest protection of our freedom of religion. The government does not dictate the terms of our beliefs, nor does it attempt to control religion.

The current same sex legislation is about civil rights, not religious marriage. The same sex civil marriage law is accepted as law in eight jurisdictions across Canada.

My job as a parliamentarian and legislator is to protect the rights of each and every Canadian and defend the charter in its entirety. The charter was enshrined to ensure that the rights of minorities, regardless of their numbers, were never subjected to the will of the majority. We must not shirk that responsibility.

The Prime Minister, on the other hand, has demonstrated that equality rights are not a top priority for his government. When the Conservatives eliminated the court challenges program, they stripped minority groups of the ability to challenge legislation that infringed on their rights.

The court challenges program provided financial assistance to individuals and groups who were pursuing legal action to advance language and equality rights under the Constitution. The right to same sex marriage is one of the issues that have been brought before the Supreme Court thanks to this valuable program. People objecting or seeking their rights under religious beliefs had the same access to that program when it was funded.

The Conservatives have sent a message that financial resources are a factor in determining the extension of charter rights. This is unacceptable.

In December 2004 the Supreme Court ruled that same sex couples have the same right to civil marriage as do opposite sex couples. The current government wishes to reinstate the traditional definition of marriage, but it would serve no purpose to legislate a definition of marriage that is not consistent with the charter, because it would be overturned by the courts.

The Prime Minister has stated that he would not use the notwithstanding clause to bar gay marriage, but constitutional experts tell us that new law can only be passed if the clause is invoked.

As I see it, this is a disingenuous motion aimed at keeping an election promise to Conservative supporters. I have said to my constituents, and I will repeat it here, that the only time I would support in such a matter the use of the notwithstanding clause would be to defend the rights of the independence of the church, should they ever be attacked. The Prime Minister is again pandering to his base. We saw it this fall with the $2 billion cuts to our valued social programs. Even worse, he is using a deeply sensitive and divisive issue to do so.

The bottom line is that the definition of marriage has already been changed. It is now a matter of overriding a right that is guaranteed by the charter, a right that is already in place. The issue is not whether rights are to be granted; it is whether they should be taken away. Our rights cannot be subject to political whim.

More than 12,000 gay couples have wed in Canada since same sex marriage was legalized last year. Furthermore, Bill C-38 made universal across Canada a law that is already accepted as law in eight jurisdictions, including my home province of Nova Scotia. In September 2004 the Supreme Court of Nova Scotia ruled that same sex civil marriage was legal in our province.

The charter is a living document and must evolve and reflect the changing nature of society. As we are well aware, it was not until 1929 that women were finally declared persons under the law in Canada. This historic decision established a principle of understanding that justice requires judges to consider an evolving social context when interpreting the law. Lord Sankey of the Privy Council said it best:

The exclusion of women from all public offices is a relic of days more barbarous than ours, but it must be remembered that the necessity of the times often forced on man customs which in later years were not necessary.

Canada is a progressive and inclusive country that values the rights of individuals. Our laws must reflect equality as we understand it today and not as we understood it decades or centuries ago. Canadians have spoken on this issue and democracy has prevailed. The Conservative government must stop playing politics with our rights and move forward, not backward, on an issue that has been thoroughly examined, debated and passed through this House and the Senate.

In summary, what we are debating here today is not changing the current definition. That is done by a bill, an act of Parliament, that is presented either by the government or by a member of Parliament as a private member's bill. It is debated in this House of Commons. It goes to committee. Experts can come and testify. Individuals with concerns can come and testify. It gets more debate at third reading. It gets three readings in the Senate. We have gone through that process.

This is a motion intended to divide Canadians, to divide members of the House and not change the status of laws in Canada.

[James Moore, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Works and Government Services and Minister for the Pacific Gateway and the Vancouver-Whistler Olympics]

Mr. Speaker, I am a Conservative member of Parliament. I voted in favour of same sex marriage last year. I will be voting essentially in favour of same sex marriage again on this motion.

On the issue with which my colleague ended his speech, talking about creating divisions, most of my colleagues disagree with me on this question. I would go to war in order to fight for their right to disagree with me on this question. I know they disagree with me but they respect my right to have my view, because they know that I believe in strong families too and I believe in civil rights too. I know that they believe in strong families and they are coming at this from a decent, respectful, honourable position. Honourable people with decent and good intentions can honourably disagree about difficult questions. That is why we have always had a free vote on this question.

My colleague opposite and I agree on this question. His party had to be arm wrestled by the media in order to actually come to the position of having a free vote. His colleague sitting in front of him, the member for Thunder Bay—Superior North, had to resign from cabinet in order to be able to vote his conscience. How responsible is it for the Liberal Party to force people to resign their seats, wrestle with themselves, vote against their constituents and their consciences on an issue as important as this one?

He gets up in his place in the House and says that anybody who disagrees with him is essentially un-Canadian and does not respect the charter and civil rights. If we are going to go forward as a country and have these kinds of honourable civil debates where decent people can honourably disagree about important questions, that kind of language has to stop.

[Robert Thibault, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I know the member is too intelligent to believe half of his own argument.

Number one, I agree with him completely on the rights of people to disagree. There is more than one view on this matter. The point I make is that it has gone through the courts. It has been decided in eight provinces. It was referred to the Supreme Court of Canada.

On the question of the member for Thunder Bay—Superior North, as a minister he did the honourable thing. He did not agree with a key piece of legislation proposed by his government. He wanted to vote against it and he did, as the former minister of intergovernmental affairs in the Conservative government did last week, but that was not a piece of legislation; it was just a motion that the government was putting forward. He did not agree and was forced to resign. He could not vote his conscience. He had to stay behind the curtains; he could not come in. He said that on TV. He had to stay away because everybody was forced.

On the question of what I believe and what the member believes about the original legislation, we believe the same things. We both voted the same way. I believe in the rights of individuals, members of Parliament and the public to disagree with my vision. That is freedom of speech.

If the government wants to change that legislation and wants some real debate in order to change the act, it is the government's responsibility to bring forward a bill, have a debate and then let Parliament make a decision in the traditional manner. Bringing it forward as a motion is a divisive political tool being used by the Prime Minister to create problems in the House of Commons and with the public of Canada.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is a privilege to address this motion. I believe the issue of traditional marriage is of crucial importance to all Canadians.

Since my election to office in January, there has been no other topic that has generated such a constant flow of mail, email, telephone calls and face to face dialogue as the issue of marriage.

I am relieved to say that finally the voices of Kitchener—Conestoga will be heard. The people in my riding have spoken clearly. I am proud to finally be the voice of Kitchener—Conestoga. In the spirit of being that voice, let me take some time to speak from my heart. Let me share some of my deeply personal beliefs and convictions about the merits of reopening the debate on traditional marriage.

Some people would want us to believe that traditional marriage is something about which Canadians have forgotten. That is simply not true. In fact, nothing could be further from the truth. Canadians care deeply about this issue. It may be an issue that members of Parliament would like to put behind them. It may be an issue about which special lobby groups would like to see us forget. However, let me clear, it is an issue Canadians are not going to abandon.

I have been serving as an MP for less than a year. In that time over 1,000 constituents have taken the time to write me a letter, or pick up the phone, or stop me on the street, and they say quite clearly, “I care about traditional marriage”.

I have been asked about this issue by young married couples who are raising children. These families are deeply concerned about their children and future grandchildren if the traditional family is abandoned.

I have personally met with young people. These are teenagers and young adults. They are contemplating marriage and have taken the time to come to me and tell me that they are concerned about the future of our country. They come to my office and thank me for not turning my back on them. They thank me for giving them a voice. These young people want to see the definition of marriage protected as the union of one man and one woman to the exclusion of all others. Young people of Canada know this: strong communities are built on strong families and a strong Canada is built on strong families.

It was not very long ago that a resolution came to the House on the issue of marriage. And it was in this very House less than eight years ago in June of 1999 that we agreed that marriage would be defined as “one man and one woman to the exclusion of all others”. The vast majority of members in this House voted in favour of that resolution. In fact, I can look across the floor into the eyes of my colleagues who stood up and said that marriage should be defined as one man and one woman to the exclusion of all others.

However, as members will know, in June 2005 there was a hasty adoption of Bill C-38. It is my deeply held personal belief that many members decided to turn their back on that previous commitment. They turned their back on their constituents and they turned their back on the Canadian people. Bill C-38 was rushed into law, but the bill did not have the benefit of complete debate.

The Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights had conducted hearings across Canada, meeting with hundreds of Canadians from coast to coast. The committee spent untold hundreds of thousands of taxpayer dollars, 465 witnesses appeared, 250 briefs were presented and thousands of letters were received.

Unfortunately, all that work and effort was ignored. All that input was never compiled into a report and presented to Parliament. In other words, the committee hearings were nothing more than a sham and they deceived Canadians by allowing them to think that they were part of an important national debate. If democracy is to be well served on a matter of such fundamental importance as marriage, then we need to know the views of Canadian citizens.

The issue before us today and the vote tomorrow is not a vote on traditional marriage, but it is a vote to allow debate on traditional marriage. While I personally continue to favour a traditional definition of marriage, I think it is a travesty that we could turn our back on having an open debate on this subject. Democracy deserves no less.

My request, and the request of millions of Canadians, is for Parliament to reopen this debate so the report can be tabled and Canadians can all have real input on this important matter. Thousands of taxpayer dollars were spent conducting these hearings. Therefore, in the interest of wise stewardship alone, we owe it to all Canadians to have this work completed. However, there is much more at stake than simply getting good value for money in having this report tabled.

Another key factor to consider is the fact that many members were not given their free vote on this important issue. If my current information is accurate, it appears that the so-called New Democratic Party will not allow democracy within their own ranks.

Over and over, Canadians have been given a hollow promise that their individual rights will not be trampled and that no one will be forced to act against their own conscience or religious beliefs.

Does it not seem ironic that in the very place where those hollow assurances originate, in the House of Commons of Canada, that this core individual right is denied to individual members of Parliament? How can we reassure Canadians that their values, their individual rights and their religious convictions will not similarly be trampled?

It is true that Bill C-38 was enacted into law, but does it follow that this law is never open to further scrutiny? I know every member of the House understands that the practice of periodic review of legislation is simply good government practice. I believe any governing body has an obligation to review and revise its policies from time to time. Do we not owe it to our constituents to ensure that the law of the land is achieving its intended goal? Do we not have an obligation to allow parliamentarians to vote in a way that truly reflects the spirit of leadership we bring to this position? If Bill C-38 introduced worthy legislation, why would we not allow a full and open debate? Let the law be examined on its merits, good or bad.

There are simply too many factors that were overlooked and ignored in the previous government's haste to rush this legislation. There are too many questions that still face the House. Yes, we can choose to ignore those questions again, but just because we choose to turn our back on them does not make them go away.

There are questions that remain unanswered. Have other jurisdictions experienced any negative consequences from implementing similar legislation? If we turn our back on this debate, we will never know. Did we consider the potential consequences for all segments of society in our haste to change thousands of years of traditional marriage? Did we overlook the needs of the most vulnerable among us, young children? Unless we have a full debate, we will never know. We have an obligation to examine the facts before we make decisions.

The issue of human rights has been raised as the reason that we cannot deny same sex couples the right to marry. If we are to speak of rights in the House, we need to include the rights of children.

The UN Declaration on Human Rights specifically states that the rights of children must take priority over the rights of adults because they are more vulnerable and require the support of the state.

Multiple studies have taken a good hard look at the impact of traditional marriage on childhood development. Yet, unless we vote to reopen debate on this issue, the House will never have an opportunity to consider what those studies say.

The debate over traditional marriage should be a debate about rights, I agree. However, in the blind dash to put a patchwork of rights together, have we ignored the rights of children? Again, let me make a direct appeal to my fellow parliamentarians. For the sake of future generations, for the sake of our country, let us remember the children.

I do not want to stand in the House and have young people come to me in 10 or 15 years and say, “You turned your back on us”. I cannot allow that to happen.

The responsibility of any elected official is to represent the views of their constituents. The people of Kitchener—Conestoga have spoken very clearly. They have spoken repeatedly. They want to open the debate on traditional marriage.

As I walk through the streets of Breslau, New Hamburg, Wellesley or St. Jacobs, constituents come to me and thank me for finally giving them a voice. As I sit in my constituency office in Kitchener, people will call me or drop in just to express their support of traditional marriage. As their elected representative I am asking: let us have an open and honest debate.

Canadians expect an open and honest debate, followed by a truly democratic vote, not a whipped vote by an autocratic party leader determined to satisfy special interests. The House of Commons, the highest pinnacle of democracy, deserves nothing less.

We need a debate to review the impact, not just on people who wish to marry but one that also reviews the impact of that decision on the most vulnerable among us, our children.

Again, my request is simple and clear. For the sake of democracy, for the sake of our children, for the sake of future generations and for the sake of the future of our country, let us have a full, open and honest debate.

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the tone of the debate seems to have greatly improved from previous times when we discussed the rights of homosexuals and lesbians. Maybe it is a sign of things to come, and I certainly hope so because there are some very hurtful statements in the record of previous Parliaments by the Conservative Party.

The member said that we should have a free and open debate. We had a free and open debate. I live in the community next to the member. He knows that he did not receive a mandate in the last election to reopen the same sex marriage debate. All he has to do is look at the totality of the number of votes he got and compare it to the totality of all other votes for members who happened to believe in this issue.

I understand my friend, the member for Cambridge, has similar feelings on this issue as the member for Kitchener—Conestoga, but I got a higher percentage of votes than either one of them, and my position has been very clear, as the member knows. I know the member for Cambridge does not like hearing the truth.

However, let me put a question to the member opposite because this is an important issue. The question is fairly simple. Would the member use the notwithstanding clause to reverse the issue?

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am so thankful the hon. member finally got to the question. I was worried for a while that I might not get a chance to respond.

I simply want to ask the member this. If we had a full, open and honest debate, why did Parliament not allow the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights to table its report before it rushed into the debate? Why did it not take time to at least have the report compiled and tabled in Parliament so it could make an open decision?

In addition to that, if we want an open and honest debate and a free vote, why did the member opposite not pressure his leader to allow all government members to vote openly and freely on the debate last time?

[Joe Comuzzi, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Mr. Speaker, let me compliment the member for Kitchener—Conestoga who spoke very eloquently of his personal concerns about the legislation. I was sitting here thinking his speech very much resembled a speech I made several years ago. As my speech defied logic in certain areas, I am sure his is subject to the same scrutiny.

You, Mr. Speaker, have been here much longer than I, but I think I followed behind you. Could you tell me, through the member for Kitchener—Conestoga, when was the last time a governing party asked for permission to bring legislation before the House of Commons? That is an unfair question because of the member's short tenure in the House, but maybe the Speaker--

[The Deputy Speaker, NDP, Bill Blaikie]

The hon. member for Kitchener—Conestoga.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I certainly defer to the elder statesmen among us. Together they probably have more years of experience in the House than I have on this earth. I value that wisdom very much. I have been so richly blessed to be a new member of the House and to have many members from all parties afford me their wisdom and advice.

I cannot answer the member's question on that issue. I will simply respond that the Prime Minister during the last campaign made a very clear commitment to Canadians that if this party formed government, it was committed to allowing its members to have a free and open debate and vote on this issue. This is simply an effort to follow through on the party's campaign promise, something we do in many other areas as well.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Mr. Speaker, who among us would dare consider returning to a debate on the rights of women in our society or the rights of visible minorities? I speak with confidence when I say that I doubt anyone here would even consider such a discussion valid or tolerable. Indeed, no such topic would ever be tolerable for debates anywhere in this country, and rightfully so.

The hard won liberties of so many Canadians are enshrined within our laws and engraved into the hearts and souls of our great country and yet today the government has chosen to return to a debate that should have long since ended and a reconsideration of rights not only hard won but even late in coming to gays and lesbians in this country.

On February 1, 2005, our former Liberal prime minister, the member for LaSalle—Émard, introduced a bill to extend to gays and lesbians the right to marry. In so doing, he, along with my colleagues and I in the Liberal government, began the final steps in what had been a very long journey for those seeking full and equal rights in this country.

What could be more fundamental than to have the right to marry someone who we love and care for and someone with whom we wish to share our lives? All the gay and lesbian community asked for was that the state recognize their union as it does the union of their fellow citizens. The answer is that nothing could be more fundamental than having the government send a clear message that its laws are a recognition of the importance of a stable and committed same sex relationship.

This equal marriage act was tantamount to declaring from the very heights of Parliament Hill, the very centre of our country, that no form of bigotry or intolerance would be considered acceptable toward any citizen of Canada for any reason.

For many years, before Bill C-38 on same sex marriage was adopted, gays and lesbians had to fight in court to have their right to equality respected.

When the Liberal government made a reference to the Supreme Court, the latter ruled that measures had to be taken to ensure that gays and lesbians be given the same treatment as other Canadians.

It was with courage, conviction and a deep sense of justice that the Liberal government and many members of the House of Commons took these measures in accordance with the opinion of the highest court of the land.

It is important and fair to recognize that as a result of court decisions some provinces were already embracing equality and allowing equal marriage. Eight of our provinces and one of our territories saw the reality of equal marriage even before the equal marriage act was passed.

In revisiting equal marriage, the government is not only casting an eye backward, it is attempting to move in a direction that is completely out of turn with the movement toward equality that has begun to take hold around the world. In bringing the motion before the House, the government is attempting to create two classes of citizens with two different sets of rights. It is clearly an affront to our democratic and equality based traditions as a country.

From the Netherlands to Belgium, from Spain to South Africa and, more recently, in judicial decisions in Israel, people across the world are beginning to deal with the injustice of laws that preclude equal marriage.

The Charter of Rights and Freedoms enshrined in our Constitution clearly identifies all Canadians as equal under the law. These are inalienable rights that simply cannot be sacrificed upon the altar of political expediency.

The right to equal marriage now woven into the very fabric of our nation's identity is not simply a concept to be negotiated between those fortunate enough to sit in this chamber.

We who share the same moment of life are called upon not to languish in the drudgery of petty debates about the equality of others but to rise to the soaring pinnacle that is wide enough for all of us to rest upon and then to cast our gaze across the beautiful landscape of human equality and the fullness of our human potential.

The equal marriage act was about fairness. It was and is about allowing all citizens to stand before their peers in equality. No citizen of this country should feel less than his or her fellow Canadian.

Those who would grab hold of the hands of time that have already marched forward and wrestled them back ought to summon even the most minute speck of empathy and, in so doing, bring a glowing light to illuminate the way forward for them and for us all.

My community is not unlike most of the communities that we here are honoured and privileged to represent in this House. There are those who in good conscience support equal marriage and those who have difficulty with the concept.

However, I believe very strongly that most of those I represent recognize the importance of the grand ideals in our Charter of Rights and Freedoms. They know, as I do, that the rights of those who seek same sex marriage need to be respected, as do the rights of those who, through religious convictions, do not wish to participate or support equal marriage. Our Charter of Rights and Freedoms also protects their religious beliefs and I can assure the House that I respect and demand for them the same protections under our laws that I call upon for gays and lesbians.

The equal marriage act was a milestone in the path toward full equality for gays and lesbians. It was a line in the sand drawn across the landscape of our history that announced to all Canadians and to the world that intolerance and discrimination based on sexual orientation was now a part of our history where it so clearly belonged.

Our votes in support of equal marriage were very much more than an act to allow gays and lesbians to marry. When we supported the equal marriage act, we engraved into the essence of our country's soul a beautiful equality for those who had for so long been the target of marginalization, persecution and outrageous injustice.

The reality of the equal marriage act is that all Canadians have the right to have their loving relationships formally recognized. My partner of 12 years and I deserve the same rights as all other members of this House and all other Canadians.

Section 15 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms states that “every individual is equal before and under the law...”. It is my right and it is a right we all have and deserve.

In bringing forward this debate once again, the government rekindles the embers of inequality that have, for gays and lesbians, burned through their hearts and souls for far too long. I call upon my colleagues of all parties in this House to put out the fires of injustice, to extinguish the flames of intolerance and to bury the unseemly glow of inequality.

Let the light that shines forth from this House today be one of a warm embrace. Let us extend a welcome to all citizens of this great country to join together in equality and unity.

I ask all members to please join me in voting, not only against this resolution but for equality. We have no need to look to the past when the future holds such wonderful promise and immense opportunity for us all, equal and united in our common humanity and our common purpose.

When the sun finally sets on our individual lives, today will be remembered as an important day. In voting for equality, we will have invited all of us to live a meaningful and loving existence shared with those they love and among those who we have the honour to call our fellow and equal citizens.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the perspective the member for Davenport has on this. I know he was here for the speech of the Conservative member who spoke immediately before him, the member for Kitchener—Conestoga. A theme of that member's speech was “the blind dash toward setting this legislation in the last Parliament”. He talked about the undue haste that he thought the 38th Parliament had undertaken in its work on Bill C-38, the Civil Marriage Act.

As an openly gay man, I can say that the blind dash toward equality for gay and lesbian people in Canada does not seem like a very fast march to me. The 32 years that gay and lesbian people in Canada have worked to secure equal marriage rights does not seem like a very fast pace for those of us who have been fighting to see the full equality of our citizenship recognized and to see that we have equal access to key institutions of Canadian society like marriage.

I wonder if the member might comment on this supposed blind dash toward getting this legislation through the last Parliament. I hasten to remind him that 98 Conservative members spoke in the debate in the last Parliament. I think the Conservative Party had just over 100 members in the last Parliament.

We had weeks of hearings before the special legislative committee that was working on this. We often sat well into the night on that committee hearing from witnesses, a majority of whom raised concerns about the legislation.

Could the member comment on this supposed blind dash toward this legislation?

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I must say that I have profound respect for the work the member has done to support equality for us all. When we talk about equality, it is not only about equality for gays and lesbians. It is equality for all Canadians. It is also a question of respect for all citizens in this beloved country.

The member is absolutely right in what he said but I would like to go a little further. We did debate this issue and every member of the House who wanted to speak had an opportunity to speak. Contrary to what the Conservative members opposite, who are now in government, have stated, which is that we rushed this through, there was in fact a full debate in the House and there were hearings.

At the end of the day, Parliament made a decision and it was respected by most Canadians. Canadians may not agree with everything that Parliament does but on issues of human rights, equality and the charter, at the end of the day when a decision is made in the House I am constantly impressed by the incredible tolerances shown in this country. The people of this country, by and large, do respect our laws, our Constitution and the charter.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Mr. Speaker, earlier, the member referred to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I am glad the Leader of the Opposition, the new leader of the Liberal Party, seems to have changed his mind on this being a Charter of Rights debate to this being a matter of conscience and is now allowing his members to have a free vote. We are glad about that.

The member referred to the charter and the very first items listed in that charter are fundamental rights of freedom of religion and freedom of conscience. Is the member aware that the rights of Canadians have already been violated because of this redefinition of marriage? Some businesses have been fined and some marriage commissioners have been threatened? A teacher in British Columbia was suspended and fined for expressing his views on traditional marriage.

In as much as today's motion provides recognition for civil unions and for existing same sex marriages or unions, does the member see a problem with the type of arrangement that exists in other jurisdictions and other, shall I say, mature democracies like England where I note that Elton John recently celebrated a union which was not characterized as a marriage but as a civil union under England's legislation and yet had all the trappings of a marriage relationship, as it were, and they were celebrating and happy?

Does the member not feel--

[The Deputy Speaker, NDP, Bill Blaikie]

The member has taken too much time. The hon. member for Davenport.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Mr. Speaker, certainly, in the last few years there has been an incredible amount of thought given to the whole issue of civil marriage versus same sex marriages versus what in France is called a “pacte civil”. This has been in discussion for quite some time. However, there has been a great deal of work on this issue from leading experts on human rights that this is something that is quite fundamental and is in fact a human rights issue.

If we look at country after country, whether it is Belgium, Spain, The Netherlands or South Africa, these are the arguments that have been espoused. In Canada, too, there has been a great evolution around this issue in the last number of years. We are now in a situation where those who argue against it are arguing also against human rights.

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

Mr. Speaker, having listened to much of the debate that has occurred so far this evening, I must say that there are a couple of points that I fail to understand. I fail to understand the point of view of individuals who feel that recognizing same gender civil marriage somehow threatens the traditional definition of religious marriage. I do not mix those two up and I do not understand the comparison.

At the same time, there has been much said from the official opposition that somehow we should not have this debate, that somehow, simply because there is a piece of legislation passed, Parliament has no right nor obligation nor responsibility ever to look at that issue again.

I would be of the mind frame that would rather we did not open this issue. I am not ashamed to say that. I quite believe in what I say. At the same time, for my colleagues who share my point of view, I would urge them to debate this issue on the merits of the issue, not on trying to characterize one party as being ideologically to one side or the other, or one party being right and one party being wrong but to actually debate the merits of the issue.

Can we debate the issue? Of course we can. We have the responsibility as parliamentarians to have a free, open and respectful debate in this House. I believe, quite frankly, we could do that if we strive to do that.

For me, the issue of same sex civil marriage is settled. It has been settled by the courts and it has been settled by the Parliament of Canada. It was publicly debated for two and a half years and in 2003 our justice committee from the Parliament of Canada held nationwide hearings. We debated this issue to the limit of tolerance in the House of Commons.

Previous to this debate, our provincial courts, the Supreme Court of Nova Scotia, the Supreme Court of New Brunswick, the Supreme Court of Ontario, the Supreme Court of Quebec and Yukon Territory had already recognized same gender civil marriage. Eight provinces and one territory in this country recognized same gender civil marriage before Bill C-38 was passed by the Parliament of Canada.

The Parliament of Canada had a responsibility either to recognize same gender civil marriage or challenge the lower court hearings at the Supreme Court. It chose not to challenge. The provinces did not challenge it. There was no reason to challenge it.

I think, with respect, that Canadians have already made their minds up on this debate. I believe Canadians are a generous and open society. I believe that at the beginning of this debate there was a lot of division. There was a lot of ignorance. There was a lot of intolerance. The good thing about this debate is that it has absolutely shelved a lot of that. It has allowed people of common spirit and good will to find a cooperative approach to this issue, to recognize the value in one another's points of view, and quite frankly, to move on in a positive way.

If only Conservative voters had been polled, I think we would have found a discrepancy. Perhaps the majority of Conservative voters were actually opposed to same gender civil marriage. However, if those same voters were polled today, as has been done, in Atlantic Canada in particular but in the country as a whole, it is now fifty-fifty. There are 47% of voters for and 47% of voters against same gender civil marriage. I would conclude that has changed. Through this bill, the debate and discussion around same gender civil marriage has become more open, more inclusive and more tolerant.

If we look in particular at Atlantic Canadians, 69% of them are opposed to re-opening this debate. That is from an Environics poll. That is not a poll that someone made up. That is a legitimate, open and important poll that has to be put on the record in this debate.

Allow me to be clear on a couple of issues. I keep hearing about the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. What does the Charter of Rights and Freedoms say? Subparagraph 2(a) of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms gives extremely clear and unambiguous protection for religious freedom. People who say differently, I would concur are using scare tactics. Churches, mosques, synagogues and temples in Canada will decide their own futures on religious marriage, as they should and as they have up to this point.

It is extremely important to mention that we have already had same gender religious marriage prior to passing Bill C-38 in Canada. There has been same gender religious marriage for years in the United Church of Canada and in some of the Anglican Churches in Canada. Parliament had an obligation to extend the same right that was protected by the right of religion to civil unions or civil marriages, and it did that as it had that responsibility.

The previous bill was timely and warranted. Not only that but it was a responsibility that Parliament had. I was surprised at the time. I have seen a lot of Liberal legislation come through the House and for the first time we had a bill that had real clarity of language, lacked ambiguity, and opened the door to an extension of tolerance enjoyed by all Canadians to a certain group in society when we recognized same gender marriage. Most importantly, at the same time there was clear protection for religious marriage because of the protection of the charter. We have moved forward in an important way.

Before closing I would like to say that I cannot agree that this motion would restore the traditional definition of marriage because, quite frankly, the so-called traditional definition of marriage is not, has not, and will not be threatened.

I believe that if this motion were to pass, it would immediately lead to a court challenge that would put this issue on the table for years. What are we going to do with the 12,000 gay and lesbian couples who have already married in this country? How can we take a right away from them or provide a right to others that we cannot extend to gay and lesbian couples? It is very problematic.

I know firsthand the entrenched views of many people who would deny the right of civil marriage to same gender couples. Yet, I know there is a lot of tolerance in this country. Often I hear there is less tolerance in rural Canada and I frankly disagree with that.

I think rural Canada is even more tolerant than the rest of the country. We have a long and proud history of being tolerant of our neighbours and of other points of view. I will say in this place that we should extend that tolerance to all people in Canada.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the member for his courageous stand in the last Parliament as well as his remarks tonight. He was one of the few members of his party who supported gay and lesbian marriage. I do hope he has more company this time around in the ranks of his fellow Conservative members when we vote tomorrow.

There is very little for me to quibble with in his speech, but at the beginning of his remarks he said that it was not inappropriate for there to be review of legislation, that it was appropriate for Parliament to undertake a review. I want to take him on a bit about that because I wonder why it is necessary now.

From my perspective, I do not see any crisis in marriage which would lead me to believe that kind of review is necessary. Also, I do not think it is something that we regularly do, especially when we have rulings and have made decisions on important equality rights and important human rights issues in this place.

For instance, I do not think we ever undertook a major review in this place of women's rights, nor do I think that would be appropriate. I do not think we did a major review of interracial marriage rights, nor do I think that would be appropriate. I do not think we did a major review of divorce legislation, for that matter, nor do I think that would be appropriate.

I would like to ask the member why he might concede that this kind of review is appropriate when it comes to my rights as a gay person in this country, when it comes to my right marry the person I love. Why does he think this kind of review is appropriate so quickly after we made that decision in the House?

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I do not think that this is an issue of simply looking at one individual's rights. I think it is a much more complicated issue than that.

Certainly the member is well aware that the Prime Minister made an election promise that if the Conservatives were elected as government we would revisit this issue. We have kept our word on that.

The Prime Minister has also said that it will not be a whipped vote. This is a matter of social and moral conscience for people and they will have their social and moral compass to follow. I think that is the important issue here.

Quite honestly, with respect to what the member for Burnaby—Douglas has said, this debate in this House is positive and I think it is a balancing act between rights in this country. I agree that human rights are not on the table. I think we have settled that issue and I believe the House will settle the issue for sure and for certain after the vote.

I trust the Parliament of Canada. I recognize the importance of the Parliament of Canada. At the end of the day, I think the Parliament of Canada will once again do the right thing.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the motion before the House asks Parliament to call on the government to introduce legislation which would reinstate the traditional definition of marriage. There have been many legal opinions on the constitutionality of such a bill. I wonder if the member, in his preparation for making his remarks in this place, has been able to satisfy himself as to whether or not a piece of legislation could be tabled that would in fact be charter proof and constitutional.

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

Mr. Speaker, as the member opposite already knows, I have been very clear in stating my position on this particular motion. I will not be supporting the motion. I think Bill C-38 as it stands will stand before the charter. I think it is constitutional. It has been approved and I think it will be reaffirmed by the Parliament of Canada.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is a privilege to participate in the debate tonight.

I think it is fair to say that pretty well everyone here is suffering from debate fatigue. I have been in Parliament since 1997 and this issue has been bubbling up in one form or another since then. It appeared in resolutions. It appeared on pension rights. I was part of the justice committee that travelled across the country and got our report usurped by the decision made by the Court of Appeal. Then, of course, it culminated in Bill C-38.

This issue does keep coming up over and over again. The votes have been, to varying degrees, whipped votes. That in some respects has skewed the results, leaving those who see marriage as I do, as being between a man and a woman, somewhat dissatisfied. Had the votes not been whipped, I would suggest that possibly the results might have been different.

The other reason that this debate comes up over and over again is a resentment on the part of a lot of citizens, including my constituents, in that they do not like the courts taking unilateral decisions and in effect usurping parliamentary authority on a rights-based analysis in what is ultimately a very complex societal issue.

I respectfully submit that this is not the way in which to get societal consensus. Since over the last 10 years we have been trying to get societal consensus on this--and possibly there is some movement--I respectfully suggest that whipping votes and having courts inappropriately usurp parliamentary authority is not the way to get societal consensus.

I note that other countries, those that have adopted same sex marriage, in fact have moved legislatively. They have not had to respond to particular court decisions, so it has been the initiative of the legislatures rather than the courts. I suggest that a fear of what the people might say or think is always a bad thing in a democracy.

I want to turn to the motion itself. I would describe this motion as a bit of a false hope motion. The Prime Minister made an election promise, or more accurately a half-promise, during the last election and got himself into a bit of a jam. He was repeatedly asked whether he would use the notwithstanding clause. An honest response would have been, of course, to say that he would, because in order to effect any real change, to effect an override on Bill C-38, we are going to have to use the notwithstanding clause. If there is anyone who has a legal opinion to the contrary, I would be interested in hearing it.

Unless there is in the motion itself a commitment on the part of the Prime Minister to use the notwithstanding clause, I would respectfully suggest that this is a debate that really is largely a rhetorical debate, with much sound and fury signifying not too much at all.

Simultaneously we have heard from a lot of people who are wrapping themselves in the charter. Generally they are the people who oppose the motion. My only comment to those who oppose the motion while wrapping themselves in the charter is that part of the charter is the notwithstanding clause. The framers of the Constitution, the framers of the charter, felt that there was a necessary override at times. That is the only way and the only basis on which those framers would allow a charter to come forward.

Essentially we have a debate between those who conveniently ignore the notwithstanding clause and a Prime Minister who will not say whether he will use it.

I would like to frame my views somewhat differently, though. As we know, a lot of politicians get criticized for being less than forthright, for constantly bobbing and weaving and taking somewhat different positions, and I can see why that is, because to take a clear and unequivocal position on an issue such as this is simply to be held up to public ridicule, in part, and no one likes to be ridiculed publicly.

So at the risk of painting a target on my head, here is what I believe. I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman, period. I do not think I can make it any shorter or clearer than that. I may have to be taken out to re-education camp, but nevertheless I still believe that.

I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman and it is the central institution in society by which society perpetuates itself. That is the core reason for marriage. It is the central bridging institution. It bridges between the genders and it bridges back into previous generations and it bridges into future generations. I take those as self-evident truths. That is the core reason for marriage.

And that is why society effectively builds up a legal, a cultural and even a religious net around the couple: because it has to. The laws and norms that are around the institution of marriage between a man and a woman exist to protect particularly the women and the children, who are products of that marriage or who enter into marriage, during their vulnerabilities and their dependency.

Effectively, the laws and the cultural norms, and even the religious norms, mean that a man cannot walk away from a marriage relationship without having the law and the culture impose this web of obligations and responsibilities on him. Similarly, we could say the same thing for a woman walking away from a marriage.

The core purpose of marriage is societal perpetuation, and if marriage did not exist, we would have to invent it. Every society that survives in fact creates a strong web of laws and obligations, and societies survive only if they do so. If marriage is just about a couple, then we simply would not need this net of cultural and legal obligations and norms.

I want to turn now to the exceptions, because I know that of course some marriages do not have children. They are childless. That still does not detract from the core purpose of marriage. It is simply an exception to the norm.

And of course common law relationships produce children, but I respectfully submit that common law relationships are statistically not as stable as marriage, for all its flaws, and they are more difficult particularly for women and produce inferior outcomes for children. There are notable exceptions, and I do not want my email to be busted overnight with people who say, “But my kid is perfectly fine and we had a great relationship in a common law relationship”. As a statistical truth, this is true.

As well, single people produce children, but as we know, parenting is a tough slog when two people are raising a child. When it is one person raising a child, it is tougher again by some exponential factor. Society reacts by stepping into the breach, albeit, how shall we say it, inadequately, and in some manner replacing either the missing mother or father.

So I go back to my central point that marriage, for all its faults and all its failures, is the best institution for crossing the gender barrier and for the continuity of society.

The proponents of same sex marriage have been successful, however, in limiting the debate to simply a rights analysis only. Their argument starts with a conclusion. The conclusion is that marriage is simply a relationship between two people.

Therefore, it follows, as we back up through the argument, that if it is merely that--and I do not believe that, as I hope I have demonstrated--if it is merely a relationship between two people, then it matters not what gender the people are. And therefore, we arrive at the conclusion that it is discriminatory to have a situation in which marriage is only between men and women and that it can be between any gender if we follow the logic of that analysis. I respectfully suggest that this is in fact dubious logic and it guts the core reason for marriage.

There will be consequences. We cannot renovate the institution with nothing happening or expecting that nothing will happen. I expect the first consequence will be that heterosexuals will accelerate their detachment from marriage. There is a trend that is already there. We see more and more couples living together. We see more and more couples living together and then getting married. In both cases, there is less stability in those relationships.

The second, and more troubling, consequence is that we will need to redefine parenthood and limit children's rights. We already see the same sex couples, who are inherently sterile, asking courts to declare that their child, conceived by whatever means, is in fact their child, regardless of the biological rights. As Margaret Somerville has said, “society to become complicit in intentionally depriving children of their rights with respect to their biological family”.

I will be supporting this deeply flawed motion in spite of its political implications. I wish the Prime Minister had been more honest with Canadians and spelled out the legal and constitutional implications. This is a mischievous, duplicitous and dishonest motion, but regretfully I will have to support because it is in fact a proxy for the marriage debate.

I hope I made myself clear as to what I believe and why I believe it.

[James Moore, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Works and Government Services and Minister for the Pacific Gateway and the Vancouver-Whistler Olympics]

Mr. Speaker, I do not know if my colleague, the member for Scarborough—Guildwood, has ever had an intervention in the House that has not been substantive and well thought out, and tonight is no exception.

He began his speech the same way he ended it, talking about the honesty of the motion and what would be needed by Parliament in terms of an assertion in order to roll back same sex marriage. There is plenty to debate in there.

I do not think I agree with him on how our country is legally structured. In terms of a constitutional democracy versus a parliamentary democracy, one does not necessarily override the other, but that debate was had twenty-four and a half years ago.

I believe my colleague will understand that this is a constitutional democracy. As a consequence of that, because of these legal decisions, he said if the Prime Minister were honest, the motion would say explicitly that the notwithstanding clause would have to be invoked in order to undo same sex marriage.

My question is straightforward for my colleague. Does he believe in using the notwithstanding clause with regard to the issue of same sex marriage?

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Mr. Speaker, we go from a point that being a constitutional democracy is in fact the charter and the charter contains within it the notwithstanding clause. The notwithstanding clause is not there for nothing. I take the view that this is a critical and a core issue with respect to our society. Marriage is a foundational institution to our society. Therefore, I would have been happier had the Prime Minister put that in the motion.

With the greatest respect to my friend, it will not be my decision to make as to whether the notwithstanding clause should or should not be in the motion. I did not frame the motion. I only wish the Prime Minister had been a little more explicit with Canadians. Absent this commitment, this debate will not mean a great deal.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I serve on the finance committee with the hon. member and we do butt heads fairly routinely, but not on this issue. Does the hon. member believe that equality can be enshrined for same sex couples without changing the definition of marriage?

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Mr. Speaker, my view of the matter is all kinds of approaches could have been adopted to take in the issue of equality. For instance, France has refused to create the concept of same sex marriage, but it does have a form of civil union. So do some other European countries, none of which immediately come to mind.

There are creative solutions to what I believe to be the legitimate aspirations of same sex people to have their unions recognized in the same manner and same social standing that marriage confers on a couple.

The approach by those who advocate for same sex marriage has been to simply gut the rationale for marriage and turn it into a relationship between two people. Therefore, at the end of the day, marriage will only mean a relationship between two people, which in my view does not accord with my sense of what, and I hope almost everyone else's sense, marriage is all about.