House of Commons Hansard #44 of the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was amendments.

Topics

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6:55 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

All those in favour will please say yea.

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Some hon. members

Yea.

On division.

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NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

I declare Motion No. 23 carried on division.

(Motion No. 23 agreed to)

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NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

The next question is on Motion No. 24. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

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Some hon. members

Agreed.

No.

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NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

All those in favour will please say yea.

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Some hon. members

Yea.

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NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

(Motion No. 24 agreed to)

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NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

I shall now proceed to put the motions in Group No. 4

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Ottawa West—Nepean Ontario

Conservative

John Baird ConservativePresident of the Treasury Board

moved:

Motion No. 28

That Bill C-2, in Clause 315, be amended by replacing, in the French version, lines 16 and 17 on page 206 with the following:

“b) concernant la corruption ou la collusion au”

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6:55 p.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

moved:

Motion No. 29

That Bill C-2, in Clause 315, be amended by adding after line 27 on page 206 the following:

“(e) requiring the public disclosure of basic information on contracts entered into with Her Majesty for the performance of work, the supply of goods or the rendering of services and having a value in excess of $10,000.”

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Ottawa West—Nepean Ontario

Conservative

John Baird ConservativePresident of the Treasury Board

moved:

Motion No. 30

That Bill C-2, in Clause 315, be amended by replacing lines 19 to 25 on page 207 with the following:

“provincial government or a municipality, or any of their agencies;

(c.1) a band, as defined in subsection 2(1) of the Indian Act, or an aboriginal body that is party to a self-government agreement given effect by an Act of Parliament, or any of their agencies;”

I want to speak very briefly to the amendment put forward by the New Democratic Party. The member for Ottawa Centre does have a strong commitment, and we should acknowledge that, to reforming the National Capital Commission.

As a member representing one of the ridings in the national capital I think I can speak for all of us. The member for Pontiac is here as well as the member for Nepean—Carleton. I know the member for Ottawa—Vanier and the member for Gatineau would also agree that the NCC is in need of reform. One of the essential elements there though is consultation, that the public be involved in that process.

The good news is that all the members and all parties support reform. The minister responsible for the National Capital Commission, one of the most capable representatives in the federal cabinet, is seized with the issue and I think he will be speaking to that in short order.

Given that this is an amendment, we have received no public consultation on it. I am not saying I disagree with components of it. I do think there is a lot of value to what the member for Ottawa Centre spoke about in committee. It would be certainly the government's view that, while there is great merit in some of the suggestions, it would be better dealt with when there would be an opportunity for the public to be consulted on this amendment before it goes forward.

We did open up the National Capital Commission Act for one purpose, to separate the chair and the CEO which is going to be done. The position is up for renewal in short order and before that happened we felt we wanted to fast track that one small change. However, I would underline the appreciation that I have, and I know all members in the capital would have, for the member for Ottawa Centre's desire to see reform on this issue.

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Bloc

Benoît Sauvageau Bloc Repentigny, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like the President of the Treasury Board to explain the background of his Motion No. 30.

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Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am very happy to speak to Motion No. 30. This motion addresses the issue with respect to following the money, the authority of the Auditor General and the exclusion of aboriginal organizations.

In committee, a motion was approved that excludes the council of a band as defined in the Indian Act as well as other aboriginal bodies. The motion before us today replaces the words “the council of a band” by “a band” to properly reflect the institution that receives the grant or contribution. In other words, funding agreements are made between the Crown and a band as opposed to the council of a band.

We very much see these amendments as technical. Of course the strong view of the government caucus and members on this side of this House would be that the follow the money provisions should extend to these organizations and I will put that on the record. The purpose of the amendment is to clarify an amendment that was brought in by the opposition.

I want to assure the member for Repentigny, and through him to anyone outside the House, that there is certainly no attempt whatsoever in any way, shape or form to get around the decision taken at committee. I am very happy to put that on the record for his benefit.

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7 p.m.

Liberal

Stephen Owen Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

Mr. Speaker, I am grateful to have the opportunity to speak to this group of amendments. Motion No. 28 is very much in order as far as we are concerned, but I would like to say a few words about Motions Nos. 29 and 30.

Motion No. 29 talks about a requirement to post and disclose all contracts entered into by the government over the amount of $10,000. This would codify something that is the practice. It was brought in by the previous Liberal government as a policy, but was not in legislation. For the past year and a half, and I know because I was public works minister at that time, the government has posted contracts over $10,000. This amendment would codify that, and we agree it is a good thing to do. This has been done invariably in any event over the last time by policy of the previous government.

It is immensely important that this public information be seen by the public and appreciated. If any unfairness on procurement or questions come to light, there is full knowledge of where that concern lies and people can bring up their concerns at an appropriate time. We have no difficulty with that being codified in the legislation. We think it is an appropriate step forward, even though it was invariably done by the last government.

With respect to the exclusion of aboriginal people, first nations, we agree the technical amendment to the committee's amendment is appropriate. We have had a chance to discuss this with government lawyers as well as parties opposite. This is appropriate in terms of cleaning up the language to ensure that aboriginal groups, first nations, that have first nations self- government agreements with the government, which are recorded in legislation, as well as bands under the Indian Act be at this time excluded from the legislation.

It is important to understand our constitutional order. Section 35 of the Constitution, as it has been increasingly interpreted and explained by the courts as well as in its wording itself, continues the rights of aboriginal people.

The jurisprudence on this has made very clear that there is a duty to consult and, indeed, to accommodate first nations when we take actions of government. In this case, a parallel series of discussions went on with first nations organizations, with the Auditor General, so an aboriginal auditor general could be created. This would give us the opportunity to also house that aboriginal auditor general. The current Auditor General has offered to house the new office in her office for a period of a year or two to add to capacity-building to get it up to speed.

The important thing is we are not asking municipal or provincial governments to be subject to direct audits by the Auditor General. Therefore, it is not appropriate that we would ask self-governing first nations be subject to this.

This is an important exclusion at this time. The President of the Treasury Board has expressed the overall concern that money emanating from the federal government be followed by the Auditor General. We have heard evidence from the Auditor General that the appropriate way to go forward is to help first nations work toward a first nations auditor general and she will be in full partnership with that auditor during the capacity-building transitional period.

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7:05 p.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The capable and hard-working whip of the New Democratic Party, with whom I spoke about the National Capital Commission, pointed out that it should be Motion No. 27 and not Motion No. 29 that should be debated.

I apologize and appreciate the wise counsel of the member from Bathurst.

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Bloc

Benoît Sauvageau Bloc Repentigny, QC

Mr. Speaker, I noticed that the President of the Treasury Board spoke mostly about the amendment on the National Capital Commission, but I thought—this did not surprise me—he was saying kind words about the hon. member for Ottawa Centre and that was why he talked about it.

That being said, I will now speak to amendments 28, 29 and 30, the last three amendments of the fourth group. I want to tell my hon. colleagues that for amendment 29, the amendment introduced by the hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst, it will be our pleasure to support it. Once again we have a meeting of the minds. I will be pleased to see how they intend to specify, with dollar amounts, which communications will be required in order to enhance transparency. We believe that, in the context of a bill on transparency, it would be a very good idea to enhance this transparency. I hope that the government will be in favour of this amendment.

We do, however, have a bit of a problem with Motion No. 30. I think that the member of the Liberal Party who spoke before me has explained very well the reality and the problem. At present, negotiations are underway between the office of the Auditor General and aboriginal communities to establish a position of aboriginal Auditor General. The intention is to ensure accountability from those aboriginal communities who receive grants. Members will recall that, two or three years ago, the Auditor General told us that these are the communities that have to produce the largest number of reports. This means that there is already accountability. It should be improved, not increased. In addition, the office of the Auditor General is currently discussing with these groups to ensure that efficient accountability is in place.

It is also very pertinent and important to remind the House that aboriginal communities must ensure effective accountability. However, the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs must also be entirely transparent in terms of truly effective accountability. Year after year, the Auditor General reminds us that the most problematic department with respect to accountability is the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs. We then meet the various deputy ministers on the Standing Committee on Public Accounts. Curiously, this reminds me of a bank manager. Every time we hear from a deputy minister about their problems, he or she replies that they have only been in the position for a month or two, and that their predecessor did not do a good job, but the next time they come before us, they will have corrected the situation. Two years later, there is another deputy minister responsible for Indian and Northern Affairs, who will in turn say that his or predecessor did not do a good job, but when we meet them again in two years, the situation will be corrected. The same thing is repeated over and over.

Thus, following the money trail is a good thing in this case, but greater accountability is needed from the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs.

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7:10 p.m.

Fundy Royal New Brunswick

Conservative

Rob Moore ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada

Mr. Speaker, there have been some conversations with all parties. I believe if you seek it, you would find unanimous consent for the following motion. I move:

That Bill C-2, in Clause 181(2) be amended by replacing line 26 on page 132 with the following:

“(b) any parent Crown corporation, and any wholly-owned”

This is to bring in line changes that were made under Motion No. 13 to the Access to Information Act, bringing the Privacy Act in line.

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Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

Does the hon. parliamentary secretary have the unanimous consent of the House to move the motion?

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Some hon. members

Agreed.

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Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

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Some hon. members

Agreed.

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Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

(Motion agreed to)

Resuming debate.

The hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst.

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NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Mr. Speaker, I only want to quote a short part of clause 315 that requires an amendment:

(e) requiring the public disclosure of basic information on contracts entered into with Her Majesty for the performance of work, the supply of goods or the rendering of services and having a value in excess of $10,000.

I am pleased to know that the Bloc will support this good motion. I think that I do not have anything more to say. The bill goes in the right direction. It will cover governments and anyone who is held accountable.

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7:10 p.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I wonder if we might have the indulgence of the House. We are working with the Clerk on the amendment to Motion No. 13, which was agreed to by unanimous consent, to ensure it is in the right place. I wonder if we might have a short pause while the Table is consulted by my colleague, the able opposition critic, who is not only the opposition critic on ethics. He is also a former ombudsman and a former deputy attorney general of British Columbia. He is someone who has great skill and knowledge. One may disagree with the member, but I have grown to respect his judgment on these issues.