House of Commons Hansard #44 of the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was amendments.

Topics

Federal Accountability ActGovernment Orders

6:40 p.m.

Ottawa West—Nepean Ontario

Conservative

John Baird ConservativePresident of the Treasury Board

He said: Mr. Speaker, I would be remiss if I did not say to all members of the House that there has been a lot of due diligence from the members of the official opposition, the Bloc and the New Democrats on this. Members have certainly tried to do their very best to fulfill their responsibilities. I would be negligent if I did not point that out to the House and, through you, Mr. Speaker, to Canadians who are watching.

I rise to speak to two motions to amend clause 123 of Bill C-2, the federal accountability act, which proposes the enactment of a director of public prosecutions act. This is something that is tremendously important. Clause 123 was amended by the committee examining the bill to confer authority on a parliamentary committee to approve the appointment of a selected candidate to the position of the director of public prosecutions and to require a resolution from the House of Commons to remove the incumbent from office.

It is the government's view that these amendments which were proposed, I believe in good faith by my colleagues in the Bloc Québécois in committee, are beyond the scope and the principle of Bill C-2 as they run counter to the accountability regime that was carefully designed for the position of the director of public prosecutions.

Pursuant to clause 123, the DPP has the rank and status of a deputy head of department, a deputy minister. The DPP is responsible for initiating and conducting prosecutions under and on behalf of the Attorney General of Canada. The DPP is also required to provide an annual report to the Attorney General in respect of the activities of his or her office.

Accountability is inextricably linked to the authority to appoint and remove an office holder. Bill C-2 has introduced and contemplated an accountability framework whereby the DPP would be responsible and accountable to the Attorney General for the exercise of these executive functions. I would underline the executive as apart from the parliamentary or legislative function in this place. A central feature of this accountability framework is the authority to appoint and remove the DPP, which is conferred solely on the governor in council.

In addition, the DPP would be designated an accounting officer under Bill C-2, which prescribes the nature of the accountability of the DPP before the appropriate committees of the House of Commons and the Senate, as well as setting out how this accountability is discharged in appearing before the committee and answering questions. This is a made in Canada regime and this person would have the status of a deputy minister, while the accountability regimes would be blurred through the amendment that was made in committee.

Clause 123 as amended requires parliamentary approval of the appointment and removal of the DPP. It asks that the House of Commons now have a key role to play in the appointment and removal of a public office holder whose functions do form part of the executive branch of government. The Bloc amendment fundamentally changes the nature of the position and confuses the line of accountability of the DPP. This falls outside the principle and scope of the bill as approved by the House of Commons at second reading.

For this reason, I would like to encourage all members, particularly my good friend, the member for Vancouver Quadra, to give serious consideration to reviewing this decision. Is it really an appropriate line of accountability to have someone exercising executive power with the blurred lines of being designated an accounting officer in part of the bill and then being essentially a quasi-agent of Parliament, exercising executive authority? I commend this advice to members of the House.

Federal Accountability ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

Bloc

Benoît Sauvageau Bloc Repentigny, QC

Mr. Speaker, we are moving quickly ahead and I have a clarification to ask of my friend and colleague, the President of the Treasury Board.

In Group No. 3, Motion No. 11 on the grandfather clause, it seems to me to have obtained unanimous consent a little earlier, but my memory fails me and I do not recall whether this was decided in the House.

Therefore I would like to ask the President of the Treasury Board: when we refer to Group No. 3, is this outside Amendment No. 11? If so, I thank you. If not, does the President of the Treasury Board wish to seek unanimous consent?

Federal Accountability ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

Mr. Speaker, my colleague from Repentigny is correct. I had neglected to speak to the official opposition on this issue.

Various members of Parliament have talked about Motion No. 11, as to whether it was intended to remove the Chief Electoral Officer from that list, not to grandfather that incumbent in office. The only part that opened that act with respect to that officer was with respect to the secret ballot. When the secret ballot motion was defeated, we believed we should move it from here.

Having said that, while it would be proper for the legislative framework in our judgment, which is a judgment not a fact, we would be happy to withdraw this amendment if it would provide greater comfort to the opposition.

Would he like some time to think about it? No, so I guess I look to our friend from the New Democratic Party. I have heard representations from her whip on this issue and I would ask for unanimous consent to withdraw Motion No. 11 in my name.

Federal Accountability ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

Does the President of the Treasury Board have the unanimous consent to withdraw Motion No. 11?

Federal Accountability ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Federal Accountability ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

(Motion No. 11 withdrawn)

Federal Accountability ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

Mr. Speaker, I say to my friend from Repentigny, another promise made, another promise kept by the President of the Treasury Board.

Federal Accountability ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

Stephen Owen Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

Mr. Speaker, I wish to thank colleagues all around who have worked hard on this important bill over the last while. We have had some differences of opinion with respect to the effectiveness or perhaps unintended consequences of some of it, and that has led to a number of amendments which have been generally well thought out and well received.

With respect to this group of amendments, we are in agreement now with the withdrawal of Motion No. 11. We are in agreement with the rest of the amendments except for Motion No. 12, and let me just respond to the President of the Treasury Board briefly on that.

The prosecutorial decision-making of an attorney general, and therefore a deputy attorney general for the purposes of prosecution or a director of public prosecutions, is not exactly an executive power. It is a quasi-judicial power which must be administered in a fair and impartial way. There is some cloudiness around that.

Regarding the amendment that was made in committee and was agreed upon, the legislative committee should have direct involvement in the choosing of this individual. Given the impartial nature of that person's work and given that this person fulfills the independent role of the attorney general in our system as a quasi-judicial decision-making prosecutor, we believe it is most appropriate that we maintain the ability for the parliamentary committee to recommend and have that recommendation followed.

Federal Accountability ActGovernment Orders

6:50 p.m.

Bloc

Benoît Sauvageau Bloc Repentigny, QC

Mr. Speaker, I first want to note the collaboration of the President of the Treasury Board. After a bad start, this has proceeded well and appears to be reaching a positive conclusion. When the time comes, it must be said, and I am saying it.

Indeed, a few amendments have required unanimous consent. With both the NDP and the Liberals, we have managed to agree relatively well in this regard.

As for the changes in the third group of amendments, we are coming to amendments that are a little more technical, which, although technical, are important for the implementation of Bill C-2.

I hope that those who have followed today’s deliberations have noted the seriousness with which we have once again attempted to amend the bill to make it even more efficient, more effective for the people protected by this bill.

The most important thing, I believe, is the five-year review clause proposed by Mr. Shapiro, which has been accepted and adopted by all the parties. This is laudable. I would nonetheless like to recall the comments of the auditor general regarding the sponsorship scandal, which were that it is fine to have strict rules, but one must also be willing to follow them. That is what she said about the sponsorship scandal.

With regard to Bill C-2, if a problem should eventually arise, it may be that we have been too restrictive toward certain categories of persons. At that time those aspects will have to be corrected. I am sure that the committee will then have a little more time to correct the aspects that need correcting.

With regard to Motions No. 10, 12 and 16 which have been reviewed today, they do not cause us too many problems. We still question certain aspects, but we are certain that as the bill is applied it will be possible to have more accurate interpretations of these parts of the bill.

I am now eager to read the fourth part, that is, the fourth group of amendments.

Federal Accountability ActGovernment Orders

6:50 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

Is the House ready for the question?

Federal Accountability ActGovernment Orders

6:50 p.m.

Some hon. members

Question.

Federal Accountability ActGovernment Orders

6:50 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

The question is on Motion No. 10. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Federal Accountability ActGovernment Orders

6:50 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Federal Accountability ActGovernment Orders

6:50 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

(Motion No. 10 agreed to)

The next question is on Motion No. 12. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Federal Accountability ActGovernment Orders

6:50 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

No.

Federal Accountability ActGovernment Orders

6:50 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

Federal Accountability ActGovernment Orders

6:50 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Federal Accountability ActGovernment Orders

6:50 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

All those opposed will please say nay.

Federal Accountability ActGovernment Orders

6:50 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

Federal Accountability ActGovernment Orders

6:50 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

The recorded division on Motion No. 12 stands deferred.

Federal Accountability ActGovernment Orders

6:50 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

The next question is on Motion No. 16. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Federal Accountability ActGovernment Orders

6:50 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Federal Accountability ActGovernment Orders

6:50 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

(Motion No. 16 agreed to)

Federal Accountability ActGovernment Orders

6:55 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

The next question is on Motion No. 23. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Federal Accountability ActGovernment Orders

6:55 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

No.