Debates of Dec. 6th, 2007

Opposition Motion--Federal Excise Tax on Gasoline

[The Speaker, Liberal, Peter Milliken]

Since today is the final allotted day for the supply period ending December 10, the House will go through the usual procedures to consider and dispose of the supply bill.

In view of recent practices, do hon. members agree that the bill be distributed now?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Paul Zed, Liberal, Saint John, NB]

Mr. Speaker, our motion today is as follows:

That, consistent with the spirit of the Liberal New Deal for Cities and Communities, this House believes it is in the best interests of Canadians that the government should take steps to make permanent the sharing of the Federal Excise Tax on gasoline with all Canadian municipalities for the purposes of enhancing local community infrastructure.

Canada's cities are the engines that drive our economy. The continued growth and economic stability of Canadian cities are essential to provide opportunities for all Canadians. With 50% of both Canada's population and its GDP output coming from our largest 10 cities, their needs must be taken care of. To ensure the future sustainability of our economy, that is imperative.

It is also true that the development of Canadian cities will play a major role in determining how well we succeed in the global economy. As pointed out by the former Liberal prime minister, the member for LaSalle—Émard, “In a world in which talent, capital and ideas are globally mobile, it's Toronto and Montreal vs. Shanghai and Bangalore; Ottawa vs. Helsinki; Vancouver vs. San Francisco”.

At the other end of the spectrum, it cannot be overlooked that cities are where most Canadians live, work and play. They are our homes and our neighbourhoods. Our standard of living is directly related to the recreational, cultural and educational opportunities that are available in our cities.

It is a standard of living which relies on a strong, viable and sustainable infrastructure that allows us to take advantage of these opportunities. By and large, that responsibility is left to the municipal level of government. It is simple: municipal governments must have proper support to carry out that mandate.

I am very proud to be a member of a party that for over a decade engaged Canada's municipal leaders in an attempt to improve the quality of life in Canada's cities. Right from the very first budget brought in by the Chrétien government in 1994, Liberal governments made progressive investments in infrastructure across the country. The infrastructure Canada program, the Canada strategic infrastructure fund, the municipal rural infrastructure fund and other Liberal programs invested $12 billion in Canada's municipalities.

Even while the member for LaSalle—Émard was working to tackle the deficit monster that Canadians inherited from the previous Conservative government under former prime minister Mulroney, he and the rest of the Liberal cabinet ensured that Canadian cities did not go without and that key infrastructure investments were made throughout the 1990s.

However, investing in infrastructure projects was only the first step in a long term policy and funding framework that Canadian municipalities badly needed. Municipalities need this even more so today. The fact is that Canadian cities are attempting to address 21st century policy needs under a model designed in the 19th century.

Unlike the vast majority of municipalities throughout the United States and western Europe, the majority of revenue for cities and communities in Canada comes from property taxes. Despite the fact that cities are expected to provide social services, immigration counselling, housing, public transit, roads, policing and a whole host of other measures, there has not been any change in the funding model for cities in Canada for over 150 years.

We cannot expect Canadian municipalities to fund welfare programs, immigration services and numerous other aspects of Canada's social safety net on the back of property taxes. Property taxes are ill-suited to funding these kinds of services.

If a widow owns a home in downtown Fort McMurray, Alberta, it is entirely possible that the value of her home has gone up fivefold or tenfold, but she is still living on a fixed income. Should we really be demanding that she pay 10 times the property taxes she paid a decade ago despite the fact that she is living on the same income? I certainly think not.

The biggest single reason for the increased scope of responsibilities of the cities is the steps taken by governments in the 1990s to tackle the ballooning deficit problem. Responsibilities for a wide array of policy fields were downloaded to lower levels of government without providing them adequate resources with which to manage the burden.

Cities, with no one to download responsibilities to, have been left with the duty to deal with all of the issues that have been heaped upon them. Legally, cities are not allowed to run operating deficits, although some can fund capital projects through deficit financing. The City of Edmonton, for example, has had a balanced operating budget for some time, but in 2005 its long term debt increased from $417 million to $470 million due to capital expenditures. Interest payments alone are more than $20 million annually.

As a result, although it appears from an operating perspective that municipalities have been able to manage things without getting into financial trouble, municipal debt levels are increasing right across Canada.

City after city and community after community across the country have to choose between long term investments in infrastructure versus meeting the day to day demand to balance the operating budgets. Most cities cannot even keep up with the day to day demands of their new responsibilities. They are desperately looking for new funds.

In an attempt to address this fundamental imbalance, the Liberal government worked extensively with its municipal and provincial partners to begin the process of building the long term fiscal capacity of Canada's municipalities and communities.

In budget 2004, the Chrétien government announced that the federal government would fully refund municipalities all of the GST that they were required to pay out. Alone, this simple step provides municipalities with more than $700 million per year in revenue.

In 2005 the Liberal government went one step further, announcing its new deal for cities, which would begin sharing the federal excise tax on gasoline with municipal governments. In the 2008-09 fiscal year the program comes fully of age and provides municipalities, I am proud to say, $2 billion in funding annually.

However, the program will eventually come to an end. It is legislated to stop providing money to municipalities in 2014. The motion that we are debating today would call upon the federal government to make permanent the gas tax transfer to municipalities.

Why is this so important? The answer is very simple: proper municipal planning. In order for cities to be able to adequately plan their investments in infrastructure and ensure they can replace key components in a timely and orderly fashion, they need to be assured of their income streams.

This is especially key for municipalities, because most of them are not allowed to take on deficit financing for large scale capital projects, so unless they can be fully assured of long term income streams, they simply cannot manage their local infrastructure. Making the gas tax transfer a permanent feature of federal government budgets would go part of the way toward providing Canadian municipalities with the long term funding they need to address their community and infrastructure needs.

Some members of the House may be wondering why municipal infrastructure is so important. They may be asking why we should care. In fact, I am guessing that the Minister of Finance is asking why he should be filling potholes.

On November 20 of this year, the Federation of Canadian Municipalities released an extremely important report, which showed that as a whole Canadian municipalities face a $123 billion infrastructure deficit. The FCM press release states, “The physical foundations of Canada's cities and communities are 'near collapse'”.

It went on to say:

Canada's economy and quality of life and the health and safety of Canadians depend on the infrastructure our municipalities build and own, yet we don't have the resources to maintain it. If we don't act soon as a nation to tackle this deficit, we see more catastrophic failures in our roads, bridges, water supply and other vital infrastructure. Continued delay is unthinkable....

The $123-billion figure, when compared with earlier estimates, clearly shows the municipal infrastructure deficit is growing faster than previously thought. Most municipal infrastructure was built between the 1950s and 1970s, and much of it is due for replacement. As assets reach the end of their service life, repair and replacement costs skyrocket. Across Canada, municipal infrastructure has reached the breaking point.

I do not think that any member of the House should be surprised by any of the statements from the FCM. Just to take recreational infrastructure as an example, each and every one of us has either a memorial rink or a centennial pool in our ridings. Let us think about those facilities. Many of them are in serious disrepair and are in need of a facelift, if not an outright replacement.

Liberal infrastructure programs started helping to address those needs, as they did in Sault Ste. Marie, where the Sault Memorial Gardens were replaced by a new arena, or in Grand Bay, New Brunswick, where partnership with the province and the municipality constructed new recreational facilities.

Let me give members another example. Montreal is one of the largest cities in our country and is home to millions of people. It is also a city where there are very high property values. This might suggest that the city would be able to take on significant projects, yet even in Montreal, the FCM found, there are serious problems with the city's water and waste water systems. According to the report, 33% of its sewage pipe stock reached the end of its life in 2002, yet there is no plan to provide comprehensive support to Montreal's water system.

Should the government sit on the sidelines while the water system of one of Canada's largest cities continues to deteriorate? Montreal is an example of a city that has a pretty good water and waste water system right now. However, there are many communities across the country where raw sewage is dumped into our lakes and rivers.

Team Saint John lobbied long and hard to have all levels of government agree on harbour cleanup as a priority. We are now beginning the even greater task of renewing and replacing water pipes and systems at a cost in excess of $150 million, and that is just one of dozens of infrastructure projects in Saint John, New Brunswick, my community. The sister communities of Rothesay and Quispamsis are typical of hundreds of communities across the country that need new roads, new water treatment facilities and new recreational facilities to address their growing populations.

There is no doubt that urgent action is needed now. All we need to do is look to the position of the Conservative Party toward cities before it actually had the responsibility of governing.

In June 2003, the Prime Minister said that he was opposed to the new deal for cities. It is true. He opposed transferring the gas tax to municipalities. He said, “That the federal government should have its own new deal with municipalities is not a view I would subscribe to”. That is not all he said.

In 2004, when he was running for the leadership of the Conservative Party, the Prime Minister said, A Stephen Harper government will not seek to create “boutique” programs--

[The Deputy Speaker, NDP, Bill Blaikie]

Order, please. The hon. member knows that he is not supposed to do indirectly what he cannot do directly. I am sure he can figure his way around that.

[Paul Zed, Liberal, Saint John, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Prime Minister went on to say that the federal “government will not seek to create 'boutique' programs or intrude into new areas like municipal policy and education”. If this view was not clear enough from the 2004 Conservative Party platform, it also said:

The reality is that the federal government does not focus enough attention on its core responsibilities. It is spending too much time on issues better left to the provinces and the municipalities. Infrastructure is an excellent example.

I guess we should not be surprised when the Prime Minister flatly refuses to be involved in any discussion with municipal issues with Premier McGuinty of Ontario.

The reaction by the Minister of Finance to the concerns of cities is even worse. In response to the FCM report, the minister told municipalities that they should quit their whining, that the federal government is not in the pothole business. That is pretty rich coming from the former Ontario finance minister who is largely responsible for the financial difficulties that Ontario cities find themselves in today.

I could not say it better than Carol Goar of the Toronto Star who wrote of the finance minister and said:

A decade ago, he was a senior minister in the Ontario government that imposed a massive restructuring plan on the province's cities. It forced municipalities to assume half the cost of welfare, disability payments and an array of social services. It downloaded the province's aging stock of public housing on local governments, with a one-time repair grant. And it cut off funding for child care and public transit....

Not only is [the Minister of Finance] refusing to take responsibility for a mess he helped create; he is insulting the victims. Not only is he behaving like a bully with cash spilling out of his pockets, he is expecting voters to thank him for his fiscal rectitude.

Canadian municipalities are struggling. When I hear the Minister of Transport talk about $33 billion in Canadian municipality funding and referring to it as unprecedented, we need to quickly look at those numbers.

First, the $33 billion includes $5.8 billion to fund the GST rebate to municipalities. That was a Liberal initiative. We are now down to $27.2 billion. The funding also includes $11.8 billion for the new deal for cities. Not only is that a Liberal program, but the Prime Minister repeatedly said that he would surely not provide that funding and opposed the money for municipalities. Surely the transport minister would not suggest that he gave that money to the cities. The fund also includes funding for a Pacific Gateway.

The commitment of the government actually dries down to less than $7 billion over seven years. The bottom line is that the $33 billion program that the minister speaks so highly of is, in fact, almost back to zero.

If we were to make the gas transfer permanent, it would do one thing. It would demonstrate that even though the government refuses to make a serious commitment to our cities and even though the government has shown nothing but contempt for these issues that Canada's mayors raise on a regular basis, the Liberal Party of Canada understands the very real problems that Canada's municipalities face and will work with our provinces, our municipal partners and our communities to address this very serious issue.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I enjoyed the presentation by my colleague across the way. I spent 13 years as a municipal councillor in the city of Burlington in the region of Halton. Infrastructure problems are not new to the municipalities. They have been dealing with them for years.

In my own municipality of Burlington, I was on council when we added a 1% increase to the tax base strictly for infrastructure use. We have a complete understanding of what the needs are for infrastructure.

It did not happen in the last 22 months that this deficit came about. It happened long before that. Municipalities have been talking to the federal government for years and years. Finally, this government has put together a package of $33 billion to help municipalities meet their needs. Our government is taking action. We are not simply talking about it.

The municipalities are a function of the province. In actual fact, the province, with a piece of legislation, can completely wipe municipalities out. We are having trouble with provinces such as Ontario after signing the deal to ensure we are able to flow the $33 billion to the provinces.

What is the Liberal Party doing to ensure its parties at the provincial level are signing on with us to ensure those infrastructure dollars will actually flow to the municipalities as we want them to?

[Paul Zed, Liberal, Saint John, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I think it is a little bit rich, coming from the Conservative Party members, to use the number $33 billion. The hon. member, as a former municipal councillor, will well understand the various previous Liberal infrastructure programs that were all re-gifted and repackaged into a program called “building Canada”, when in fact “building Canada” has very little left in the funds to build.

I would ask the member a rhetorical question. Perhaps he would want to go back to his caucus and to his leader and ask whether they are absolutely committed to funding cities and communities.

It is clear to me, when we dissect the numbers, that in the 2005 budget of the member for Wascana there was an $11.5 billion allocation to cities and communities. In the government's 2007 budget that amount was cut by $7.5 billion.

How does the hon. member want to explain a $7.5 billion cut to the cities and communities of this country? Surely the voters of Burlington will ask him that question if and when he ever goes back to the polls.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to refresh my colleague from Saint John's memory. He and I are both members of the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities. Let us not forget that I had the good fortune of being the mayor of Quebec City from 1982 to 2000 and that I was the president of the union of municipalities from 1997 to 2000. My colleague seems to have forgotten a few things. He said that the Liberal Party began investing in infrastructure in 1994 and that it planned to eliminate the deficit. That is the problem: achieving a zero deficit. In the 1990s, the Liberals wanted to wipe out the deficit that the Conservatives had left behind. So what did they do? They cut provincial transfer payments for health and education. My colleague should keep that in mind.

What impact did those cuts have? In an attempt to maintain health and education services, the provinces, including Quebec and Ontario, were tougher on cities and school boards. That is what happened. Now, of course, there is a deficit. What did cities do? They were given all kinds of new infrastructure responsibilities for roads, bridges, overpasses and so on, but they were not given any money to carry out those responsibilities.

The Province of Quebec has just taken back the 4,000 bridges, structures and other works that it ceded to cities in 1992 because the cities have not invested a nickel to maintain these structures. The infrastructure problem started the moment the federal government decided to cut provincial transfer payments.

Does my colleague think that renewing the gas tax program is enough when cities need $123 billion to fix infrastructure problems? Once again, we must remember that cities have not been able to update their infrastructure because, since the 1990s, they have been paying for Ottawa to achieve a zero deficit.

[Paul Zed, Liberal, Saint John, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I am very aware of the hon. member's commitment and interest in municipal infrastructure. He has been a strong advocate for the national, provincial and municipal governments working together.

In the 1993 election platform of the Liberal Party, Canada's infrastructure investments, the Canada strategic infrastructure fund and the municipal rural infrastructure fund, all of those programs were in the face of the huge deficit inherited from the previous Conservative government. There is no question it was a challenge. I want to assure the hon. member that Quebec was the very first province in Canada to recognize and sign on to the Chrétien Liberal government's Canada infrastructure program.

While I accept that there are challenges with balancing all of the moneys that we have as a Parliament of Canada to allocate to various projects, infrastructure is in a crisis. I agree with the hon. member that the gas tax and GST rebates are part of a larger problem. I would encourage the hon. member to continue to oppose the Conservative government's neo-con approach that looks at municipalities but does not have money for them. It does not have money for the mayors, councillors and communities. The Minister of Finance said they should stop their whining and do their jobs. The Minister of Human Resources and Social Development said we should be cutting infrastructure programs. The Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities said it was a large amount of money when in fact if we go through the numbers and look at the 2005 commitment made by the previous government, we find that there was in fact an investment of $11.5 billion for municipal infrastructure which got cut by $7.5 billion by the current government.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my colleague from the Liberal Party for his comments and the breakdown of some of the numbers. That is helpful to the debate.

I want to ask him a question about the resources available to our cities and the infrastructure of our country. He referenced the FCM report. It is very helpful. There have been other reports that concur on the infrastructure deficit in our country. My question is with regard to where we are with the government right now and its fiscal update. Notwithstanding the importance of sharing things like the gas tax, recently, in front of the Commons, I shared a stage with local politicians who are concerned about finances and passing on the equivalence of 1¢ of the GST.

My question is in the area of corporate tax cuts. Recently in Parliament a tax package went through and I was very deeply concerned with his party's stand on it, because it did not take one. Where I come from, not standing up and voting against the government's tax package basically is an admission and conceit and maybe an approval of it.

In the fiscal analysis of the government, what is the right level of corporate tax in the country? I think we need some clarity on that. I would certainly like to know his and his party's stance on where corporate taxes fit into this equation.

[Paul Zed, Liberal, Saint John, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I think that the hon. member shares the Liberal Party's interest in investing in cities and communities in the country. It is really important for all members to acknowledge that there is not just a $123 billion infrastructure deficit in the country but there is also a growing gap in poverty. This party's commitment to improving the lives of Canadians who are living below the poverty level has been made very clear by the leader of our party, the Leader of the Opposition. He--

[The Deputy Speaker, NDP, Bill Blaikie]

Order. I am sorry but the time for questions and comments has expired. Resuming debate, the hon. Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance.

[Ted Menzies, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, during the course of today's debate, Canadians will hear a lot of things from members of the Liberal Party regarding the state of Canada's infrastructure. In fact, I think we have heard some rather unsubstantiated claims, not the fact that the infrastructure is in need of repair, but that the Liberals even attempted to do anything about it is blatantly obvious in the fact that it is in need of repair.

Canadians are going to hear Liberal after Liberal get up and proclaim that Canada's cities are facing an enormous infrastructure deficit that only phantom and mythical Liberal initiatives could solve in that deficit. What we will not likely hear is an honest assessment of the facts. They are at a point where much of Canada's public infrastructure has deteriorated with age and requires upgrading and replacing. Additionally, a failure to do so will likely cause Canada to fall behind in the global economy.

Rather, the Liberals will simplistically blame our government, a government a little under two years old. We all recognize the false accusation in that claim. They will not talk about the 13 long years of Liberal rule where the infrastructure needs of Canada's cities were largely neglected. Those 13 years contributed to the critical and challenging infrastructure deficit our Conservative government has inherited.

Again, this is rather simplistic and disappointing, especially considering the fact that our Conservative government has already started to take swift and decisive action. We are building the world-class infrastructure Canadians need and deserve.

As one Ontario mayor, Brampton's Susan Fennell has so accurately pointed out, the Conservatives have done more for municipalities in the last two years than the federal Liberal government did. That is a pretty condemning remark. Indeed it is quite lamentable that the Liberals have made this into such a partisan political issue.

Rebuilding Canada's infrastructure is a vital issue. Infrastructure and ensuring it remains both reliable and efficient is something all Canadians can relate to in their everyday lives. After all, we all use the roads to get to and from work, to bring our children to school, hockey or ballet. We all rely on clean drinking water and safe waste management systems for our health and that of our families.

But Infrastructure is much more than that. Infrastructure drives productivity, supports trade and fuels economic growth to build strong competitive communities. Without a doubt, strong infrastructure makes a strong country. This government like no other before recognizes the significance of infrastructure in its broader economic sense, in terms of building a world-class economy that can meet the challenges of the 21st century, and more important, win.

The old Liberal government's approach was to advance stand-alone plans that failed to integrate infrastructure into overarching and coherent economic visions, unlike the way our long term economic plan, Advantage Canada, has done. I would like to elaborate on this important plan for the edification of the House.

Advantage Canada is based on the understanding that Canadians must have the tools necessary to compete and win in the global economy if they hope to realize their dreams. This simple basic understanding seems to have eluded the old Liberal government. Instead of building a coherent economic vision that would allow Canadians to take greater advantage of a booming global economy, the Liberals were asleep at the wheel. They responded to critical economic priorities like infrastructure on an ad hoc basis without vision, without purpose, and most important, without results.

This Conservative government understands Canadians deserve better, and more important, we are acting on that understanding.

With Advantage Canada, our government is giving Canadians what they need to succeed. We are doing so with a tax advantage that will reduce taxes for all Canadians and establish the lowest tax rate on new business investment in the G-7. We are doing so with a fiscal advantage eliminating Canada's total government net debt in less than a generation. In doing so, we are creating a strong foundation on which to build lasting prosperity. We are doing so with an entrepreneurial advantage that will reduce unnecessary regulation and red tape and lower taxes to leverage business investment. We are doing so with a knowledge advantage that will create the best educated, most skilled and most flexible workforce in the world.

Last and most relevant for the purposes of today's discussion, we are doing so with an infrastructure advantage. This will help create modern world-class infrastructure and ensure the seamless flow of people, goods and services across our roads and bridges, through our gateways and via our public transit systems. This is not just rhetoric. This is not a plan gathering dust in some government building in Ottawa. We are putting it into action.

Budget 2007 began delivering on our Advantage Canada commitment to implement a comprehensive plan for infrastructure. Under budget 2007's long term plan for infrastructure this Conservative government provided an outstanding $33 billion in support for provincial, territorial and municipal infrastructure over the next seven years.

This new funding provides municipalities with certainty in planning long term infrastructure projects that make our communities better, healthier places to work, to live and to play. But that is not all we have done in budget 2007 that will benefit the municipalities and communities which are on the front lines of Canada's infrastructure efforts.

Municipal projects such as public transit, water and sewer infrastructure and local roads will also be eligible for funding under the budget's $8.8 billion building Canada fund. Also, municipalities pursuing innovative public private partnerships, or P3s as they are referred to, will be eligible under the $1.26 billion national fund for public private partnerships. This is an important tool in ensuring Canadians get value for money in their infrastructure investments.

Municipalities will also benefit from budget 2007 funding that provides each province and territory with an additional $25 million per year in equal per jurisdiction funding. This investment of $2.275 billion over seven years will help all provinces and territories participate in building a modern infrastructure network in Canada that reaches smaller jurisdictions with limited basic infrastructure and lower populations.

There should be no question our long term $33 billion plan for infrastructure will have major, major benefits for Canadian municipalities. It is not only us saying it; it is provincial governments like Nova Scotia, whose deputy premier said:

Nova Scotia and other provinces and territories have lobbied the government of Canada for long-term, stable and predictable infrastructure funding for many years. Up until the recent federal budget, these appeals fell on deaf ears. However, the new cost-sharing programs announced in the federal budget this year will go a long way toward enabling Nova Scotia to achieve its full potential as an international transportation gateway and to facilitate much needed road improvements.

Manitoba's NDP premier said, “The infrastructure funding I should say also is very positive for Manitoba. You know, I think that it is a very positive announcement”.

It is major Canadian newspapers like The Globe and Mail which recently wrote about “Ottawa's healthy record of funding those infrastructure needs....Ottawa's contribution is substantial, and it is provided even though municipalities are not a federal responsibility”.

Occasionally, it is Liberal MPs who are forced to admit reality and depart from their poorly thought out talking points, Liberals like the member for Charlottetown who praised budget 2007's infrastructure spending saying, “There is $25 million in there for infrastructure. That is good news. That is money that can go to federal priorities like transportation”.

However, it is also important to remember our major $33 billion long term plan is not just inward looking. It is also based on the understanding that our ability to connect and trade with the world will ultimately determine our quality of life at home.

Canada is well-positioned, in terms of its geography and its human and natural resources, to harness the tremendous economic opportunities presented by the rapidly expanding and dynamic economies of Asia. However, as the government understands, infrastructure is key to unlocking this potential.

For example, our east and west coast ports and our transcontinental rail system represent important but perhaps under-exploited links between Asia and North America's heartland. This infrastructure holds enormous potential in harnessing a greater share of the economic activity that is being generated between these regions while, at the same time, better connecting businesses across all of Canada with markets in Asia and beyond.

That is why we took action and made a huge, nearly $600 million, investment in Canada's Asia-Pacific gateway and corridor initiative. This initiative is an integrated set of investment and policy measures focused on trade with the Asia-Pacific region and establishes the best transportation network facilitating global supply chains between North America.

This undertaking will pay tremendous dividends for Canadians, with a large increase of container traffic at British Columbia's major commercial ports by 2020, thus boosting Canada's share of west coast container traffic from 9% to 14%. Budget 2007 further increased total federal investment in the Asia-Pacific gateway and corridor initiative to $1 billion.

I would be remiss if I were to continue discussing the importance of international infrastructure links without addressing our most important gateway to the largest economy in the world, the Windsor-Detroit corridor. Fully 28% of our merchandise shipments between Canada and the U.S. pass through the Windsor-Detroit corridor. That being the case, delays at congestion at the Windsor-Detroit border crossings can, and do, have a significant impact on our economy, particularly, on the high value-added auto sector.

It has therefore been widely acknowledged that a new crossing is required to meet Canada's long terms needs in this regard. That is why budget 2007 confirmed our government's commitment to construct, with our partners, a new border crossing at Windsor-Detroit, including: exploring a public-private partnership to design, build, finance and operate the new bridge; covering 50% of the eligible capital cost of building the access road from the new crossing to Highway 401; and providing $10 million over three years to Transport Canada to support its efforts to implement this important project.

These targeted investments are directed to where they are needed most and where they will leverage the maximum economic effect. No wonder even Ontario's Liberal Minister of Finance, Dwight Duncan, called them, “good news....It's a good step forward and the kind of thing we wanted to see”.

Before concluding my response to today's motion, I will make one final point.

While base level funding, like the gas tax share for municipalities, is important and necessary, and, indeed, that is why we have increased this type of funding, sometimes we have to dedicate our resources where they are needed most and where they will yield the greatest economic benefit to the greatest number of Canadians. That is why we have a coherent and comprehensive plan in place, not just one-dimensional base level funding, as advocated by the Liberals.

We see this in the gateway initiatives that I have outlined before, but we also see it in investments that will make a real difference in communities facing specific regional challenges that the gas tax share cannot, on its own, address.

For example, we have set aside up to $962 million in funding for the FLOW project to help fund five transit projects in the greater Toronto area that include bus rapid transit systems in Mississauga, Brampton and York region, an extension of the Spadina subway line and a transit study in Durham region, projects that will help reduce traffic congestion in the GTA and improve air quality.

To be sure, one Vaughan councillor was ecstatic with the FLOW projects, especially the Spadina extension. She was happy to have a federal government that finally recognized, in her own words, “traffic gridlock is a problem, and we need the money to fund transit. This is the last piece of the puzzle”.

Another would be a recent federal commitment to $170.5 million to help Manitoba complete the expansion of the Red River Floodway to significantly improve the level of flood protection available to the residents of Winnipeg.

A final example is the $26.6 million we committed specifically to help complete the Saint John Harbour cleanup. Is it not interesting? We are finally addressing the Saint John Harbour cleanup that the member who proposed this motion did not get done. This will provide long term environmental benefits for the riding of Saint John. It will remove sewage discharges and improve water quality in the harbour and the neighbouring waterways.

Even the sponsor of today's motion liked the investment specifically because of the flexibility address unique in community needs. He stated in his own words:

Harbour Cleanup is not about partisan politics; it is about good health, a clean environment, and a balanced quality of life....I am glad to see that the views of the community have finally been addressed.

For that very reason alone, it would be hard not to concede our infrastructure plan is superior to a one dimensional plan promoted by the Liberals, if we can call it a plan.

We are promoting a vision that acknowledges communities from coast to coast to coast face differing regional challenges. Our immense $33 billion investment represents a comprehensive, coherent and multidimensional infrastructure plan, a plan that is, in turn, a key element of the government's comprehensive and coherent long term economic plan, a plan that will create, in a way that simple base level funding the Liberals suggest could never, a better life for Canadians in their communities.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I listened carefully to the speech by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance. I would like him to talk to us about Advantage Canada and about his goal to reduce the debt, but I hope he bears in mind that this debt was created by the Conservatives, that is, by his party. Because the Conservatives created the debt, the Liberal Party, in order to achieve zero deficit, slashed transfer payments to the provinces in the areas of health care and education. That is the reality.

What did the provinces, particularly Quebec and Ontario, do? They slashed their investments in cities and school boards.

I hope he is aware of this situation: while he is paying off his debt, cities and towns are going into debt. Representatives of the Federation of Canadian Municipalities told us that the deficit for infrastructures alone is $123 billion. I hope he is aware that, while he is paying off his debt, cities and towns will go further into debt to deal with infrastructure, and that some of them will not be able to do so.

And this is all because the Conservative government drove Canada into debt and is now trying to pay off that debt. I have a very hard time with this.

Since the gas tax rebate is one of the measures he suggested, will he support what the Liberal Party is proposing here today?

[Ted Menzies, Conservative, Macleod, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for making that statement. Talking about debt, it brought to mind some points that I like to keep on my BlackBerry, and I will quote some.

In 1963, at the beginning of a Liberal rule, we had a $15.7 billion debt left by the Trudeau government. By 1984, when the Progressive Conservative government took over, that had ballooned to $195 billion. This is amazing. That debt was handed to us.

Let us talk about the deficit that was left at the end of the Progressive Conservative government. It was down to $12 billion. Those are amazing numbers. The Progressive Conservative government of that day dealt with something that was handed to it, which was inexcusable, and with which it dealt. We were handed an infrastructure deficit that was inexcusable.

The hon. member who proposed the motion today talked about all the things that the Liberals were going to do but never did. If they had done them, they would not be asking that question today. Why have we not fixed, in 22 months, what they could not even address in 13 years?

We are all aware that infrastructure weakens over time. We deal with that in our houses. We deal with that in our office buildings. If we do not invest in it, in a structured way with a long term plan, we will end up with the kind of infrastructure deficit that we face today. It is the lack of planning that the Liberal government put into those 13 years that has left us with this.

The hon. member mentioned, in answer to a previous member's question, about it being a little rich. I think it is a little rich that the Liberals would ask us to fix their mistakes of 13 years in 22 months, but we are moving forward. We have a plan and we are investing in it.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in this debate. I am glad we are talking about the gas tax fund. There are important facts about the GTF. I find it interesting that the Liberals today are want to make this a permanent measure. They were the ones, when they wanted to put this into place, who took a measured back-ended approach over five years and did not take a long range perspective at this.

It is important to know that we have extended it, not at 2¢ a litre, not at 2.5¢ or 3¢, but at the full 5¢ for an additional four years. That is an important distinction and a good long range planning tool for municipalities. I have heard a lot from my mayors on it.

The infrastructure debt about of over $100 billion is more than what the gas tax fund can handle. The gas tax fund is for roads and bridges, for example, or it might be for solid waste or some other issues that attack us. Our major ports need to become competitive and that requires massive investments. We need a new crossing at Windsor and Detroit. That $100 billion encompasses things that the gas tax fund alone simply cannot address.

Is the Liberal proposal today enough to tackle that $100 billion or do we need a suite of different funding mechanisms to address the significant infrastructure needs and leverage the kind of private dollars into infrastructure development to make our country much more competitive?

[Ted Menzies, Conservative, Macleod, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for his work on the Windsor--Detroit crossing. He was kind enough to take me on a visit to show me and many of my colleagues the weakness in that crossing. In talking with his constituents, I began to realize how serious an infrastructure deficit we had. If that is our weakest point in trading with our largest neighbour, then we absolutely need to make that part of our plan.

With respect to my colleague's question about the plan, the commitment in budget 2006 to provide municipalities with gas tax funding needs to continue, but it cannot continue as a stand-alone.

The Windsor-Detroit crossing is one example. The Asia-Pacific Gateway and the Atlantic Gateway corridors are all necessary infrastructure pieces that allow our exporters a smooth flow to export their goods so we can continue with this strong economy that this Conservative government is building upon.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Mr. Speaker, over the last 20 years, both the Liberals and the Conservatives have shown clear irresponsibility in their budgetary approach. If they were running a household, they would be out buying Ferraris rather than taking care of the house, ensuring the roof is repaired or ensuring everyone is fed and clothed. That is what the Conservatives have done.

Just like the Liberals, the Conservatives are giving billions of dollars away in corporate tax cuts when our essential infrastructure is collapsing. It is fair to say that 60% of our municipal infrastructure is over 40 years old. Our highways and transportation infrastructure, which was put in place in the sixties, is now well past the due date for renewal.

Why are the Conservatives taking the same approach as the failed Liberal government in corporate giveaways when the essentials are not being taken care of? Why are they so irresponsible? Why do they not understand that fiscally they need to take care of the essentials first before they start shovelling money off the back of a truck to their friends in the corporate sector?

[Ted Menzies, Conservative, Macleod, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I guess there was a question in that.

I reject the premise that we could be likened to the Liberal Party in any way, shape or form, other than that we are a federal political party that is actually participating in this debate today.

I fail to recognize the credibility of a question that asks why we, as the new Conservative government, are not funding infrastructure when the hon. member knows full well that the $33 billion commitment is the largest infrastructure investment in Canada in history. As the hon. Minister of Finance has suggested, we may be able to leverage that up to $100 million through leveraging with public-private partnerships.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

$100 million?

[Ted Menzies, Conservative, Macleod, AB]

I know the hon. member who is heckling me from behind does not quite understand that concept, but there is an opportunity to make more effective use of taxpayer dollars to provide the infrastructure that this country needs and that this government is willing to provide.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to the motion by the Liberal Party. The purpose of the motion is essentially to make what has been called the gas tax rebate to municipalities permanent.

Ultimately, we all know that this is all about appearances. The gas tax is not going directly to the cities. Only part of it is. That is the essence of what the Liberals introduced as part of their effort to tackle the infrastructure deficit. That fight has become very important here in Parliament, because it is ultimately here that the problem being experienced in all cities in Canada, including in Quebec, in terms of that infrastructure deficit begins.

Why does it begin here? The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance started out well when he was explaining to us just now that Trudeau and the Liberals, followed by the Conservatives, had left us a deficit of over $120 billion. The parliamentary secretary concluded by telling us that the debt had been reduced to $12 billion. It seems to me that the figure he was reading from his BlackBerry was not right, because the last year the Conservatives were in power, the debt grew by $12 billion.

Today, I can understand that the Conservatives are uncomfortable with the debt, a large part of which was left to us by them. In fact we have the Conservatives to thank for the bulk of the present debt. They would very much like to eliminate the debt with the surpluses they are producing, surpluses that the Bloc Québécois has estimated at $69 billion over the next five years.

The problem, in terms of the Conservatives’ terrible management methods, is that in the meantime there is a whole domino effect. Under the Chrétien government, with the member for Lasalle—Émard as Minister of Finance, the Liberals decided to cut transfers to the provinces in order to achieve a zero deficit, because in order to eliminate the debt they had to start by stopping spending. That is the reality and no one can deny it. They cut health and education transfers.

The result for all the provinces was terrible. Our Liberal colleague gave the example of Ontario earlier. The same thing was done in Quebec. To try to maintain the same health care and education services, the decision was made to have the other levels of government pay a share, even though they are not recognized as governments. Municipalities and school boards can tax, but they are not recognized as governments, even in Quebec. And there was pressure brought to bear on those levels to increase their contribution.

Those who are somewhat familiar with the political history of the 1990s in Quebec will recall that the first reform was called the Ryan reform, under a Liberal government. The decision was made to transfer responsibility for a majority of roadworks and roads that were not so-called “national” roads to the cities. Across Quebec, municipalities found themselves with 4,000 bridges, overpasses, real works of art, culverts, and other road infrastructures, but were given no money to maintain them.

It was simple: the government had no money, so the cities had to be capable of maintaining them. The result was that no maintenance was done. That situation has reached the point that two months ago the government of Quebec decided to take back responsibility for the 4,000 overpasses, saying that the cities had not been up to it. Quebec is therefore going to have to pay to rebuild those infrastructures itself.

If the cities were unable to maintain the infrastructures for which the Government of Quebec had given them responsibility, it was the same thing for their own infrastructures because the transfer of responsibility to the cities included not only roads but also services.

More and more, cities have been forced to take charge of other things besides services. In theory, property taxes are supposed to be reserved for services to buildings. It is probably the most regressive tax imposed on our fellow citizens by cities. It is a property tax; it is not a service to the public. It should not be used to underwrite a series of programs introduced by the cities or transferred directly to them. They have increased the burden of services to the public delivered by the cities. Probably, this has been done in all Canadian provinces. At any rate, it has been done in Quebec. All of that came about because the federal government decided to achieve a zero deficit. Since then, it has begun to accumulate surpluses.

The Liberals have explained that they tried to introduce support programs, probably because they felt embarrassed. Today, after 13 years of Liberal rule, the Conservatives are even more embarrassed because they are the ones who left behind the bulk of the debt and the problems associated with reducing or eliminating the debt. They are trying to create programs, but the malaise is real and very widespread.

Today's remarks by the Minister of Finance illustrate this; so do those of the Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communitiess. Last month, the Canadian Federation of Municipalities released a report which showed that the current infrastructure deficit is $123 billion.

The amount of money that cities would need in 2007 to bring their infrastructures up to standard is $123 billion. We are not talking about rebuilding but just about maintenance to bring everything up to a safe and secure level for the public.

The Conservative government is proposing to inject $33 billion over a period of seven years. That amount does not apply to this year. Often, they throw out the figure of $33 billion, so that, once again, the public is misled. People might feel that it is a good thing the government is putting up $33 billion to meet the deficit of $123 billion. But no, that amount is not being injected this year. It is spread over seven years. What is more, not all of the $33 billion will go to municipal infrastructure. The public should not be mislead either.

Unless I am mistaken, we are talking about $33 billion that will indeed be injected into infrastructure. However, the amount going to cities is less than $33 billion. In particular, the building Canada fund involves $8.8 billion. There are negotiations with the provinces; and they may add other projects, perhaps airports or many other kinds of infrastructures that will require lots of money but which are not directly related to the needs of the cities.

It is important to understand that. It is the position that the Bloc Québécois has traditionally taken: the infrastructure deficit must be resolved. The federal government must understand that the reason why the cities have a $123 billion infrastructure deficit is that it slashed its transfers to the provinces, which then downloaded on the cities, with the result that they can no longer afford to maintain their infrastructure properly. That is the reality.

Where does this amount come from? It is important to know exactly. The $123 billion comes from a scientific study—the only scientific study that the Federation of Canadian Municipalities has done. That is why everyone was surprised. It was not expected because of how hard it is to do a study of this kind when there are more than 4,000 cities and towns all across Canada. So the study was done. It was the first time that someone had asked every city to fill out a form detailing its needs. Then expert analysts and engineers studied the whole situation and arrived at a total of $123 billion.

What does this mean? It means $31 billion for water supply systems and sewage, $21.7 billion for transportation, and $22.8 billion for public transit. People know what the problems are with public transit. In Quebec, there are problems with the metro in Montreal. Very large sums will have to be invested. Some metro lines simply stop because the infrastructure itself is crumbling in places. Cracks are appearing and pieces of cement fall off. That is the reality. There are also $40.2 billion for cultural and social infrastructure and $7.7 billion for waste management.

All this is ultimately due to the way in which the federal government decided to restore its own financial health by squeezing the provinces.

All parties in the House must acknowledge a certain reality: cities are the creatures of the provinces. Any attempt to deal directly with cities is therefore contrary to the Canadian constitution adopted by most of the parties here. Any direct negotiations or direct agreements between cities and the federal government would be contrary to the proper procedure.

The Bloc Québécois has always maintained that we must deal with this $123 billion deficit. In order to do so, there must be direct transfers from the Government of Canada to the government of each of the provinces. There needs to be a single transfer so that the provinces—Quebec, Ontario and the others—can establish infrastructure programs. What is attractive about this is that when the provinces set out to do it, they often make some investments of their own. As a result, the $123 billion can probably be divided into three parts: the federal government’s share, the share of each of the provinces, and the cities’ share so that the infrastructure deficit can finally be eliminated.

Whether it is the Liberal Party deciding to create one, two or three infrastructure programs or the Conservative Party adding programs, in the end, under the Canadian Constitution, that party has no choice about negotiating with each province.

The building Canada fund has been mentioned; it is the latest program announced in the 2007 budget. Quebec has not yet received one penny of this fund, because the agreement with the Province of Quebec has not yet been signed. In fact, to score political points, the government tried to please everyone by creating a framework within which offers are made to each city, whereas in fact, according to the Constitution, cities have to negotiate with the provinces.

The whole process therefore becomes bogged down in discussions and negotiations. The federal government is trying to have the right to interfere, especially the Conservatives; it was less flagrant when the Liberals were in power, because they had a good grasp of the Canadian Constitution. The Conservatives, likely because they want to have a majority at any cost, are using every means possible to try to direct policies and impose their conditions on the provinces. For that reason, Quebec still has not reached an agreement on the building Canada fund. The $8.8 billion agreement has not been signed.

It is all well and good to tell us today that the infrastructure budget is $33 billion. It is true that the program that uses the excise tax on gasoline is already established. The Conservatives cannot do anything about this, because the Liberals introduced this program. The funding amounts are known; cities know that until 2012, they will be receiving their share of that tax.

What I take exception to is that today the Liberals want to extend this established program by eliminating the 2012 end date and making the program permanent. In fact, this is not what cities need. The $123 billion infrastructure deficit must really be corrected, and this will take more than simply negotiating with each province. Moreover, they have to stop acting like the Conservatives who are trying to create new programs and, more importantly, give themselves the power to make choices on behalf of the cities and provinces, although cities are creatures of the provinces.

For the Bloc Québécois, it is simple: had the decision been made, Quebec would be a country today and we would have resolved the matter a long time ago by negotiating directly with our cities. However, there is the Canadian Constitution. I am always taken aback when the federalist parties do not respect it and that happens every time we talk about infrastructure. Why do they do that? It comes down to electioneering. Once again, with the building Canada fund, they are attempting to create various funds to be distributed to the cities by the office of the Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities or that of the Minister of the Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec, giving them the impression that it is a gift.

If there were some awareness of the problems created by attempting to balance the budget by downloading responsibilities onto the provinces—which in turn balanced their health and education budgets at the expense of cities—the issue of the $123 billion would be resolved. There would finally be money for everyone. There would be only one program and all cities could rest assured that, by the end of the negotiations, they could deal with their infrastructure deficit. Thus, cities would not have to fight one another to see which one would be first or second. The program should be announced, specifying that it would extend over five years, for example, giving each city that time to work things out and solve their infrastructure problems by the end of that period. The cities could arrange their loans and negotiate accordingly. The necessary money is not always available for the cities' share of funding; loans must be arranged and the citizens convinced. In short, if there were only one program, things would be much simpler.

Unfortunately, the government in Ottawa is once again bypassing the Constitution for purely partisan reasons. It has decided to go over Quebec's head and is trying to negotiate directly with the cities. As a result, no agreement on the building Canada fund has been signed in Quebec. Only two provinces—British Columbia and Nova Scotia, if I am not mistaken—have signed agreements so far, even though this fund was announced in budget 2007.

Once again, it is easy to understand. The Bloc Québécois is all in favour of dealing with the cities' infrastructure deficit. We want this $123 billion deficit of the cities in Quebec and the rest of Canada to be paid off once and for all. We would like this to be, to be applied to solving infrastructure problems. That way, each province could negotiate with its cities as to when each city could receive their share.

That would be a very easy and realistic approach that is respectful of the fact that the cities, in large part, had to pay down the federal government's deficit. It was the Liberals and the Conservatives who added to the deficit. They flagrantly forget history. Perhaps some—because they are new—do not remember. Nonetheless, the cities are running deficits for their infrastructure today because in the 1990s, the Liberal government had to wipe out the deficit that had been shamelessly created by the Conservatives and the Trudeau government.

The Conservative member mentioned it earlier, and he was right. To try to pay off the annual deficit, to try to pay its grocery bill, the government had to cut transfers to the various provinces for health and education. It was easy to do. The federal government does not provide services in health and education. Why not cut transfers to the provinces and let them sort it out? The provinces cannot perform miracles to maintain the same level of health and education services.

Even Jean Chrétien had the nasty habit of saying that although he was cutting transfer payments, he was the one setting the national standards. Imagine how this nice, beautiful Canada was built. He was not even the one providing the service, but he set the national standard in order to get re-elected. And people bought that line and said that he was defending their interests.

But that is not at all what happened. He was cutting transfer payments to the provinces, who in turn had to cut services or try to find money elsewhere. What did they do in most cases? They transferred responsibility to the municipalities, who had no money themselves. The municipalities ended up fixing the interior of the house, but not the foundation or the structure. All municipal infrastructures suffered.

I am very proud of the study done by the Federation of Canadian Municipalities, which I have examined. It is the first serious study. The $123 billion infrastructure deficit is accurate. It is the first time a researcher has really examined this issue. The 4,000 municipalities were asked to describe their own problems with infrastructure deficits.

We must start addressing this now. We must not do what the Liberals did and keep saying we will fix this by extending the gas tax rebate. Besides, what government would dare eliminate the gas tax transfer in five years? It is already guaranteed until 2012. I do not see how the government could get rid of gas tax transfers to municipalities. It would pay the political price.

The question today is not about making the gas tax rebate permanent. There is a much more serious deficit. The gas tax rebate represents $11.5 billion over five years. And this year's needs, if we wanted to wipe out the infrastructure deficit for all municipalities, total $123 billion. Thus, it is clear that this $11.5 billion over five years is—yes, it is true—part of a solution. However, at present, we are not about to try to do what the Liberals did, by claiming that this is the one and only solution, that we came up with it, and that this is what municipalities need.

They need more than that. This is what the Conservative government should focus on. Furthermore, the Bloc Québécois is trying to exert pressure where pressure is needed, so that all the federalist parties in this House clearly understand that this country, Canada, has a Constitution, which specifies that cities and towns are under provincial jurisdiction. These federalist parties must understand that, if they want to negotiate, there must be a direct agreement. If they are going to tackle the $123 billion, they must negotiate. We must ensure that all levels of government participate and that the federal government will make a transfer payment to Quebec. The province, in cooperation with its cities and towns, can then distribute annually the amounts needed for infrastructures.

We hope this can all be spread over five years, so that each of the towns and cities can really resolve its infrastructure deficit problem by the end of that period. That would be excellent. However, once again, the Conservatives will not have the courage, because they will likely try to fix one mistake with another. They will try to pay off Canada's accumulated debt and forget that, in the meantime, cities and towns are going further into debt for their infrastructures. I am not saying that they will borrow the money, necessarily, because some of them do not even have the financial ability to do so. Instead, they will continue to allow infrastructures to deteriorate.

One day, citizens will pay the price. Once again, I hope it will not be the citizens of municipalities, when the problem lies here, in Ottawa.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciated listening to my friend. He is a very distinguished gentleman and sits on the same committee as I do. He is very passionate about his constituents and I appreciate that.

Of course, he recognizes that infrastructure is an issue of provincial and municipal jurisdiction. I am sure my friend would not suggest that we should intervene in provincial jurisdictions by trying to control that aspect of it. I was glad to hear that a member of the Bloc was actually relying on the Canadian Constitution as well.

I am sure the member is aware that we are very thankful to have a Prime Minister and a minister who have come forward with this initiative. They have listened to stakeholders and to the Federation of Canadian Municipalities. They have come up with the largest infrastructure plan that Canada has seen since the second world war.

I want to clarify with the member that at least 50%, approximately $17 billion of this $33 billion, is going directly to cities. There are other large projects that will be included with the $8.8 billion of the building Canada fund, et cetera.

I would be interested to hear the member's comments on a couple of quotes that I have here. I also want to point out to the member that when I first came to this House the member for Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam was actually the first person in the House who started asking questions about municipalities.

In my opinion, and based upon what I saw as a backbencher at that time, the member embarrassed the Liberals to the point where they began to actually listen to municipalities. The Liberals came forward with a plan, but it was never implemented.

I would ask the member to comment on a couple of quotes. The first quote is from the then intergovernmental affairs minister, who of course now is the Leader of the Opposition, when he told mayors from across Canada:

--you know full well that the Constitution clearly establishes that municipal affairs fall under provincial jurisdiction, and that the provinces are determined to keep it that way.

The second quote is from the Liberal MP for Pickering—Scarborough East who said:

It's hard to make the argument that Toronto has great needs when it's doing so extraordinarily well economically. It's a hard argument to make in the weaker regions of the country.

We have seen what the Liberals do. They talk about it, but they never fulfill the action. I would like to hear what my friend from the Bloc has to say about those two quotes.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to begin by thanking the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities for his question.

I wish that he had been the one to deliver his party's speech. The fact that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance delivered it indicates that the infrastructure file has been taken away from the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities and given to the Standing Committee on Finance. That really worries me because the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities is much closer to the problems cities are experiencing than the Standing Committee on Finance or the Minister of Finance can be.

I hope he will be able to discuss this with his party to find out why he did not deliver today's speech, which I would have appreciated. I do not mind his questions, but I would have liked him to deliver the speech. Hearing it from the person in charge of finance means that the issue has already been addressed and that cities will not be getting any more money.

That brings me to the other part of his question about the Constitution. I do not mind him pointing out that I emphasized the Canadian Constitution here. I would much rather have a Quebec constitution, and I would rather not be in this Parliament to discuss these issues. I would rather talk about them in Quebec's National Assembly and resolve problems with cities directly.

Nevertheless, I am obliged to respect the country's Constitution, which says that municipalities are a provincial responsibility. The Leader of the Opposition was right about that. However, the problem is that the infrastructure deficit was created by the federal government. I hope he got that from my speech. When the federal government decided to cut provincial transfer payments in order to achieve a zero deficit, cities paid the price. That happened in Ontario and Quebec alike.

It makes sense to transfer a program to the provinces so that each one can take care of the infrastructure deficit with its municipalities. That is what we are asking for, and we hope the Conservative Party will understand. Like the Liberals, they tend to try to negotiate directly with cities without going through the provinces.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask my colleague a few questions.

As usual, and like the Liberals before them, the Conservatives have announced that they will provide billions of dollars in funding. Specifically, they are talking about investing $33 billion in infrastructure. However, judging by Conservative promises, which are always announced with fanfare and are greatly exaggerated—take for example the announced investment of billions of dollars in British Columbia—when we later look at the specifics of these investments we realize that very little money actually trickles down. That is exactly what the Liberals did. They are engaging in political manipulation rather than providing an appropriate solution to the infrastructure deficit that currently exists in Canada and which, as the member stated, totals $123 billion.

Thus, there is a tremendous gap between the $33 billion over ten years promised by the Conservatives and the real needs of Canada. I would like the member to comment on the gap between what the Conservatives are promising and what the country's cities really need now.