Debates of April 26th, 2007

Opposition Motion—Afghanistan

[Denise Savoie, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I did not hear a question but I did hear a comment. I think the Conservatives would have us divide the world into good and evil.

I understand that Prime Minister Karzai has in the past few months invited moderate Taliban to become part of his government. I do not know how we can lump all these people into one group as the evil.

I think we are thinking of the past. There might have been a time where there was one state against another, one clear enemy in uniform against another. We are talking about a very real conflict between an invisible enemy and the way that we are going about it is putting the very civilians, the very--

[The Deputy Speaker, NDP, Bill Blaikie]

Further questions and comments. The hon. member for Mississauga South.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it was not so long ago that Saddam Hussein went through his very lengthy trial process, was convicted and was executed. Under the Geneva convention, even an evil person such as Saddam Hussein was still entitled to the protections provided for by the Geneva convention.

The member has heard that the Conservatives do not really care about human rights and that anybody who is known to have committed any heinous crimes, even if it is not known, that they should have absolutely no rights.

My view would be that if we do not protect the rights of all human beings under Geneva convention, then we are putting our own troops at risk if we do not enforce and respect the terms and provisions of the Geneva convention. Could the member comment on that?

[Denise Savoie, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Mr. Speaker, human rights are fundamental to the basis of what our country was built on and, therefore, it is important that we defend those rights.

I believe I heard the Minister of Public Safety state in one of his last responses that we cannot protect the prisoners. I find that shameful.

Our party has, for a long time, asked the government to stop the transfer and placement of detainees in circumstances that cannot be assessed and where there have been very serious allegations.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to talk about women's rights.

As the House knows, under the Taliban, women were not allowed to leave their homes except in the company of their husbands. We know they were not allowed to go to school. We know they were not allowed to start businesses. In fact, if they committed minor violations of sharia law, they would be herded into stadiums and executed. That was the state of the country under the Taliban.

Today there is freedom. Women go to school. Children can go to school. Girls go to school. Women are allowed to start businesses.

How does the member square her party's position as being a defender of women's rights with the proposal now to pull the troops out of Afghanistan and allow the women to basically try to defend themselves without any support or security?

[Denise Savoie, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the laws to protect women in Afghanistan are certainly important. While the laws have changed and while they recognize the rights of Afghan women, from the reports that we have read women are still subject to arbitrary imprisonment, rape, torture and forced marriages.

In the past months we heard a disturbing number of cases of women committing suicide by self-immolation, by dowsing themselves in gasoline. This is not a black and white issue.

[Wajid Khan, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Mr. Speaker, while the members opposite and the NDP get some snippets from the newspapers and make speeches which are absolutely not relevant, I will endeavour to not be political about it, but bring before the House the development that has been taking place in Afghanistan.

I would like members of Parliament to consider that without the security in place our Canadian armed forces help to provide, our ability to redouble our efforts in reconstruction and development would be severely hampered.

Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the member for Oxford.

Canada is helping make a difference in Afghanistan and I would like to call the attention of the House to the latest results from the field. Let me share with the House some of the achievements in which our assistance has contributed.

Canada is among the top five donors to the Afghanistan reconstruction trust fund, a multilateral fund managed by the World Bank that provides regular salaries to more than 270,000 civil servants, including 144,000 teachers.

Two weeks ago the Minister of International Cooperation and her parliamentary secretary travelled to Afghanistan. They met with the Afghan education minister, Mr. Hanif Atmar, who described in glowing terms the difference Canada has made in getting children back to school, in paying teachers' wages, and in providing education for these teachers who can in turn impart knowledge to the children, so they can have hope for a better life.

Truly, we are helping Afghanistan invest in a better tomorrow by providing education to the young people who are, after all, the leaders of tomorrow.

Our security situation is also improving. The Minister of International Cooperation also reported to the House in mid-April how she was able to travel in Afghanistan outside the wire where Canadians and civilians would not have dared travel a year or two ago. I can tell the House they had a marathon of 100 Afghans participating in Kandahar.

This is a clear example of progress being made and an example of how many things are improving as Canada and Afghanistan work together to rebuild the country. This is the opportunity that we have provided. We ought to be proud as Canadians.

We are also helping with democratic development. Through CIDA, the Government of Canada is also helping Afghans participate in grassroots democracy in action, in virtually the four corners of the country. It is called the national solidarity program and it has been successful in Kandahar and elsewhere across the country.

There are now more than 16,000 community development councils elected by the local village people that make decisions as to what community priorities should be funded. They select the projects and implement them. They tell us what project they want and we help them complete those projects.

Women are participating as full members in many of these councils, making important decisions about projects to improve public health and education in their communities. Five years ago women had no voice in public life.

As for redoubling Canada's commitment, the Government of Canada has already been reinforcing its commitment to reconstruction and development in Afghanistan. Our assistance in Afghanistan from 2001 to 2011 exceeds $1.2 billion, which includes $200 million recently announced by the Prime Minister.

We have disbursed $130 million during the fiscal year that just ended, including $39 million in Kandahar. This is seven times the amount spent in Kandahar during the previous fiscal year. That is progress.

When we formed the government, funds for development were set to decrease until 2009. One of our first acts was to increase development spending and we intend to do more for the people of Afghanistan and Kandahar in particular.

May I remind members of the House that in January of this year my colleague, the Minister of International Cooperation, announced almost $24 million for projects based primarily in Kandahar.

These projects include: demining activities to enhance stability and security, funding for a literacy program, and support for a maternal health initiative that will promote healthy pregnancies and safe childbirths.

These efforts are delivering results. There has been a 55% drop in the average number of victims of landmines every month since 2001. Six million children are in school and a third of them are girls. In 2001 there were only 70,000 children in school and there were zero girls. I call that progress.

In Kandahar we have delivered blankets and tents to 20,000 families and medical supplies to 140,000 people. Last February the director of Microfinance Investment Support Facility for Afghanistan travelled across Canada. He spoke to Canadian non-governmental organizations and to Canadian parliamentarians about the work his facility is doing with support from the Government of Canada to provide the people of Afghanistan with access to financial services.

During this visit Canada's Minister of International Cooperation announced an additional contribution of $16 million for this initiative. This fund has exceeded expectations. It is a success story. The world is looking up to it and praising it.

As of February 28, 325,000 Afghans, almost three-quarters of them women, have obtained small loans and savings services. Each month the program reaches an average of 10,000 new clients. Those women and men get loans to start businesses, such as bakeries, tailor shops and carpenter workshops. They buy farm animals, tools and seeds to improve their production.

The IMF predicts that Afghanistan's economy will grow by 12% this year. Canada, through its support for Afghan national programs, is helping to make that happen by helping to create the jobs that are key to reducing poverty. Indeed, Canada is supporting projects that are changing the lives of the people of Afghanistan, but it takes a military presence to provide the security for this type of progress to be achieved in such a challenging environment.

In a newspaper article published yesterday in the Ottawa Citizen a local school principal in Kandahar said that part of the reason he is able to operate a school is because the security situation in Kandahar is getting better.

In conclusion, I would remind members of Parliament that the tremendous efforts related to reconstruction and development are already taking place. Recent announcements by my colleague, the Minister of International Cooperation during her trip to Afghanistan in mid April, confirmed that Canadians remain strong.

Canada will contribute up to $10 million for food aid and humanitarian assistance to refugees and internally displaced people in Afghanistan. Canada is contributing up to $5 million to help more than 3.4 million Afghans participate in food for work programs, training and education.

In addition, Canada is providing up to $5 million for immediate assistance to returning refugees and internally displaced people within Afghanistan. This will ensure that the most vulnerable people are assisted with shelter, food and fuel, and are helped to reintegrate into the local population.

Canada continues to redouble its efforts in terms of reconstruction and development in Afghanistan, but it would be nonsense to imagine that Canada and its implementing partners can continue this demanding work without the enabling element of security provided by our armed forces.

Security provides the space for development to take place and the impact of the development world will bring about the stability needed to make sure the residents of southern Afghanistan can live their lives in safety and build a future in a land that is at last peaceful. Canadians can be proud of our contribution.

While I was in Afghanistan, I met the ISAF commander and he had high praise for Canadians. Canada is one of the only countries that assisted with the military operation that was successful in 100 projects inside Kandahar.

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the comments from the member. I know that he supports his government's position on Afghanistan, but I feel that I must ask a question in terms of where the emphasis is from the Canadian government.

The numbers show us that Canada is spending about 10 times the amount on the military combat mission that it is on aid and development. We have now spent over $4 billion on the military mission and really a very small amount in terms of aid and reconstruction. I think it really begs the question in terms of the emphasis of this mission and the fact that Canada is still continuing down the wrong path. I would ask him to comment on why there is such a huge discrepancy in those figures.

Second, I would ask him to comment on the whole issue around detainees. It seems to me that if Canada cannot even deal with the processing of detainees in a credible and proper fashion, and there is no accountability on that issue, then how on earth can we be involved in this kind of engage?

The chaos and the mess that we have, that we even heard in this House today, over this question is something that remains unanswered by the government.

[Wajid Khan, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Mr. Speaker, that is what I said in my initial comments, that we are not looking at the mission. We call it a war making mission. It is absolutely not a war making mission. I would like to ask my hon. colleague a question in answer to her question.

In Kandahar, 100 projects have successfully been completed, some more are in progress, because of the security forces. There is the Kajaki dam just northeast of Kandahar which the military is trying to secure. It is not for military purposes. It is for provincial purposes. This dam has broken down. There is a power station there. We are trying to fix it, so we can provide electricity to two million citizens and businesses.

When I was in Afghanistan, I found out that there are three companies, an American company, Phelps Dodge, a Canadian mining company and an Indian mining company that are building, 50 kilometres south of Afghanistan, a copper mine project worth $1.8 billion. Why would they go there if they did not see prosperity and success? What does the member have against helping the poor Afghans who want the same life the member and I?

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate the hon. member for Mississauga—Streetsville for his appointment as special advisor to the Prime Minister on issues to do with Middle East and this region that he was mentioning.

The other issue that I want to touch on is the fact that I was taking his advice as well in May 2006 when he and I both voted against extending this mission.

When we look at this mission, I would also like to agree with the member for Vancouver East who said that 90% of the money is spent on the combat mission. I do not think any member of Parliament in this House is against reconstruction and providing the tools for those children that the member for Abbotsford was talking about. It is the 90% that we are spending on the combat mission.

Could the member tell me how he would make a difference as a special advisor to the Prime Minister to cut that money on the combat mission and instead spend that money on the reconstruction in Afghanistan?

[Wajid Khan, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Mr. Speaker, that is the party that sent the troops to Afghanistan and that is the party, in 2003, that provided the troops in Kandahar. Now it is saying that it is a different mission. Now it is saying we are spending too much on the military.

I mentioned just a few of the successes we have in Afghanistan and Kandahar. Our SAT, strategic assistant team, is taking the Afghan ministers into the rural area. I talked to the minister of rural development. They are very pleased with the work. I will tell the member, when I was in Kabul, about 250 women and 100 men were being trained. That was a Canadian project, my friend, and these women and men were getting a salary of $120 to $150 a month. That is higher than anybody in Afghanistan.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Safety]

Mr. Speaker, I am happy to have the opportunity to address the House today on a matter which concerns many Canadians.

Canadians tell me every day that safety is one of their most important concerns and that they expect their government to take every measure available to address threats to their safety, whether those threats occur in Canada or anywhere else in the world.

Canadians understand that terrorism is one of the biggest threats to global peace and security, and we have all come to understand, through difficult experiences and tragic incidents in the past years, that threats to global peace and security are threats to the peace and security of Canadians.

In the past, Afghanistan has been used as a base for terrorists, who have inflicted suffering around the world and whose presence in Afghanistan has only served to destroy the lives and livelihoods of Afghan men, women and children. No responsible government wants this for its citizens. That is why the government of Afghanistan has asked Canada and 36 other nations to join together in a partnership sanctioned by the United Nations to help build a stable, democratic and self-sufficient society.

Canada has committed its support to the people of Afghanistan and we stand by that commitment.

To decide when we should leave Afghanistan prematurely would be detrimental to the mission and to the work we are doing to help rebuild that country.

It is naive and disingenuous for the opposition to suggest that fostering human rights and reconstruction will happen without the great work our troops are doing to secure Afghanistan from the Taliban. It is reckless of the official opposition to attempt to signal to Afghanistan that Canada's Parliament is going to vote for withdrawal. Such a reckless decision will not only endanger the lives of our troops, but also those of diplomats, Canadian civilian police and members of Correctional Service Canada.

Pulling out our troops prematurely would also jeopardize the great work our civilian police and correctional experts are doing in Afghanistan. I am very proud to inform the House today about the contribution being made to honour this commitment by Canadian civilian police and correctional experts.

It is clear that one of the key points in assisting Afghanistan to achieve its goals is the establishment of an accountable justice system that recognizes the fundamental importance of the rule of law and respects international standards of operations.

In addition to other Canadian civilian police, Canadians are fortunate to have two world class criminal justice organizations, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and Correctional Service Canada, which are ready and able to assist international peace support, security reform and development efforts. These civilian police officers and correctional experts are carrying on a proud and illustrious Canadian tradition of helping rebuild parts of the world that have seen turmoil and upheaval.

Correctional Service Canada has been involved in this kind of work for several years. The service has important experience in Afghanistan. Correctional Service Canada has deployed one of its senior officers to serve as a corrections adviser to the United Nations Assistance Mission in Afghanistan, which is known by its acronym, UNAMA. The corrections adviser has worked closely with his colleagues and with the Afghan minister of justice and central prison department to lay the foundations of a modern and professional correctional system.

Canadians can be proud of what we have accomplished. Correctional Service Canada advisers played a key role in discussions which led to the decision to locate the central prison department in the ministry of justice. Similarly, they supported and assisted in the development of drafting the new legislative basis for the department.

I do not need to tell the House that there are complex and difficult decisions and processes which lie at the heart of creating a correctional system that advances human dignity, respect for human rights and the rule of law, and one that is accountable for results.

Once on location, they conducted an assessment of the prison which they were assigned and immediately made changes and improvements to the conditions of imprisonment for women and juveniles. I am pleased to report today that conditions have improved significantly for these groups and they are now located in facilities or sections of a facility separate from male prisoners. This is a standard requirement of international standards concerning imprisonment, and again, Canadians were influential in identifying the issue and working toward this resolution.

This work continues today in key areas such as the development of training standards for prison staff and the effective implementation of training to enable the central prison department to do its job effectively and humanely.

Canada's work in Afghanistan is in support of the Afghanistan compact, which in January 2006 was agreed to by the government of Afghanistan, the United Nations and 60 nations from all parts of the world. The compact provides a five year framework for coordinating the work of the Afghan government and its international partners by outlining specific outcomes, as well as the benchmarks and timelines for their delivery.

One of the specific commitments in the compact is to improve the prison system in Afghanistan. It became clear that Canada could not do this simply through the efforts of the corrections adviser in Kabul. Canada decided to focus further efforts in Kandahar province, which is the home of the Canadian provincial reconstruction team.

The PRT, as it is known, is one of the ways Canada assists in extending the authority of the Government of Afghanistan to all its provinces through support for reconstruction and development. In February 2007 Correctional Service Canada deployed two of its expert staff to join the PRT and contribute to the reform of the correctional system in Afghanistan.

The Minister of Public Safety had the opportunity to be briefed by these officers when he visited Afghanistan two weeks ago. He was briefed on the work performed with the Afghan prison officers and administrators on how to manage a detention facility and ensure the safe custody of prisoners while at the same time respecting their human rights.

The correctional officers informed the minister this was some of the most rewarding work they had ever done. That says a lot. It speaks to the real contribution Canadian civilian personnel are making in Afghanistan alongside their military colleagues.

Although these officers have been on the ground for a relatively short time, they have already made progress. They have established a good working relationship with the director of Sarposa and their presence has been welcomed by the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission.

They visited the Afghanistan national police detention centre in Kandahar and have made several visits to Sarposa provincial prison, the main prison in Kandahar, where they have worked closely with prison personnel on improving their management practices.

In both cases it is clear that Afghanistan wants to make changes and improvements to its prison system and that Canadians are at the forefront of the effort. In the coming months, the CSC staff will be working toward their primary goal, which is to extend existing authority of the Afghan ministry of justice central prison department to the province of Kandahar by establishing a training and mentoring program for prison staff and administrators, by providing advice on enhancing security and living conditions for prisoners and providing a better working environment for prison staff and administration.

The missions undertaken by these dedicated CSC staff in Afghanistan are among the most challenging correctional assignments in the world. This is tough and sometimes dangerous work. They leave families and friends behind in Canada so they can serve their country under very difficult circumstances as we honour our commitment in Afghanistan.

Pulling our troops out of Afghanistan prematurely would endanger our correctional experts. It would make Afghanistan a more dangerous place for our correctional experts to do their important work of bringing human rights and a professional correctional system to the people of Afghanistan.

We cannot deny Parliament the opportunity to make the decision of when our troops should withdraw from Afghanistan, at the appropriate time, with all the current facts in front of it. We brought forward a motion in the House of Commons to extend the current Afghan mission to February 2009. The government has been clear that if it were to seek further extension, it would come to Parliament to do that, and this remains our position.

These staff members deployed from Correctional Service Canada deserve the full support of the House. The government is very proud of their efforts and we look forward to being able to advise the House of continuing successes.

[The Deputy Speaker, NDP, Bill Blaikie]

Order, please. Before proceeding to questions and comments, it is my duty pursuant to Standing Order 38 to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre, Aboriginal Affairs; the hon. member for Kenora, Softwood Lumber.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I listened very carefully to the hon. member. My impression is that his government will come back to Parliament for another vote. The vote that took place in May 2006 was a sham. the Prime Minister said that he would extend the mission for a year whether the House voted for the extension or not.

The NDP has brought forward a motion that calls for our forces to be pulled out now and that member feels it is too premature. If we keep dragging this on and do not commit to February 2009 as the date our forces will come home, then the member will come up with the same reason why we cannot leave everything just like that and bring our forces home.

Could the member commit to February 2009 as the date our forces will leave, or does he agree with his minister that it could go on for decades in Afghanistan?

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I would suggest there are a couple of errors in the member's comments. First, that the was the first opportunity the House had to vote on the mission. His government sent our troops there without a motion. That took place in a cabinet decision.

The member had the opportunity to vote and when the opportunity comes again for the House to make that decision, he will have the opportunity, as will all members, to vote on the issue at that time.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Industry]

Mr. Speaker, I wanted to thank my colleague for his very important speech. I know he speaks with some authority, coming from his background in the police force. I come from a military family and recently I had the honour to speak to some our returning heroes, some Afghani veterans from Oshawa's own Ontario Regiment. They told me about the good things they were doing there, the progress they were making, how hard they were working and how much they were appreciated.

What disturbs me today is the naiveté of this motion. Could the member explain a bit more to the NDP and the House why the motion is so dangerous to our troops and why we need security in order to have development? Those member seem to say that they want this development, but they do not want to have our troops there. Could he please explain the importance of having them both together?

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Mr. Speaker, there is an organization perhaps of which the NDP is aware called Human Rights Watch. It has compiled a number of incidents that occurred just in the year 2006. On August 28, 2006, a bomb detonated in the middle of the day in a crowded bazaar in Lashkar Gah, Helmand. The bomb killed 15 civilians and wounded 47 others, including 15 children. A Taliban spokesman claimed responsibility for the attack and stated that the target was a civilian businessman.

That illustrates very clearly why Canadians are there and why they have to be there. There has to be security in the country before we can help to build the country. NGOs from every country in the world that are there have told us they need the security of the armed forces personnel from Canada and other countries. This is not a Canadian mission entirely in any way, shape or form. We are part of a coalition of countries on a UN mission.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the member for Vancouver East.

I am, with some chagrin and some sadness, speaking to the motion before the House today. The difficulty that faces us in this motion is the fact that we have had two debates within the space of a little over a week around the mission in Afghanistan. I think the fact that we have had two debates within a week reflects, not only that the House is deeply divided but also that the Canadian public is deeply divided.

That goes back to the time when we had a vote in the House to extend the Afghanistan mission to 2009. The deep division in the House is reflected by the fact that the vote passed by merely four votes. It is that kind of division that continues to be reflected in the hearts and minds of people in the House and certainly Canadians at large.

I am proud that New Democrats had the courage to stand up and present this motion before the House today. I want to read some important points in the motion because they are fundamental to why we are standing and asking for the responsible withdrawal of the Canadian troops. The points read:

(1) all members of this House, whatever their disagreements about the mission in Afghanistan, support the courageous men and women of the Canadian Forces;

(2) the government has admitted that the situation in Afghanistan cannot be won militarily;

(3) the current counter-insurgency mission is not the right mission for Canada;

(4) the government has neither defined what 'victory' would be, nor developed an exit strategy from this counter-insurgency mission;....

I want to touch on the first point. I think I can speak, certainly on behalf of all New Democrats but I am sure all members of the House, that we absolutely support the men and women in Afghanistan.

Like many other members of the House, I too come from a military family. My father was a career soldier. He was a proud member of the military and proudly served his country from coast to coast to coast. I have firsthand understanding of what it is like to be a member of a military family and I have deep understanding of the sacrifices and the commitment that our military families make.

I speak with a great deal of confidence when I say that New Democrats absolutely support the men and women who are serving in Afghanistan and our hearts go out to the families of the men and women who have given their lives on this mission.

Because this is such a deep emotional issue, it is important that we talk about the facts as we understand them and know them. New Democrats expect that when Canadians ask men and women to serve in a mission like this that there are some clear questions that we need to answer. We not only need to answer them for the Canadian public but we also need to answer them for the men and women who are serving for us.

The member for New Westminster—Coquitlam has, on a number of occasions, put these questions to the House. In a speech earlier, she said:

I said then that any time we put the lives of Canadians in harm's way, we have a duty to determine clearly a number of points and those were: is this mission really necessary; is it a mission that can succeed, has it a good chance of success; and are we doing everything possible to ensure the safety and the well-being of our soldiers?

When we ask men and women to serve our country, we must be able to answer those questions unequivocally for them. If we cannot answer those questions, I would wonder why we were sending them off to missions where, as we have seen, they end up giving their lives.

It is not just parliamentarians who have been asking these questions. These questions have also been asked by many groups across the country. One of the groups is a peace group in British Columbia called BCVoice which put out a newsletter in 2006. This is from a citizen's perspective and not a parliamentarian's perspective. The newsletter reads:

Our job as Canadian citizens is to find the answer to the simple, large, policy question: WHY?

The article is entitled, “Why Afghanistan?”

The article goes on to state:

What are they in Afghanistan for? I was asked a number of times. Is it worth the lives of friends and colleagues?

I think those are questions that we must be able to answer.

Further on in the article it states:

We have spent over $4 billion or 68% of all our international missions since the fall of 2001 on Afghanistan.

We are there because our leaders make bad policy.

Kipling had the answer. If any question why we died, Tell them, because our fathers lied.

I am not suggesting anybody in the House is lying but I am certainly saying that we must provide clear answers to those questions posed by the member for New Westminster—Coquitlam.

A number of other organizations have talked about elements that are very important to examine when we look at this mission and one of them wrote a paper entitled, “Canada and Afghanistan: Considerations for a Parliamentary debate”. This was in March 2006 but I think a couple of these questions are still relevant.

A number of points were made that we must absolutely consider but I will only touch on two of them. One is that expressions of support for Canadians serving in Afghanistan should also include calls for full disclosure on issues related to strategic objectives and the handling of prisoners.

This week we heard many questions about what Canada has done around the handling of prisoners. I believe many Canadians have very serious concerns about Canada's role. It is the government's role, not the role of our military, to provide the direction.

The other points the paper raised were:

The real solution to the crisis is known from lessons learned in other complex humanitarian/security emergencies: restoring human security in Afghanistan will require a rejection of a military-centric counter-insurgency strategy in favour of a long-term commitment to sustained economic, social, political, and security measures that create conditions conducive to human safety and well-being.

It is not just parliamentarians who have these questions. Many organizations and Canadians across this country also have these questions.

Much has been said about the role of women. In a letter dated October 24, 2006, an Afghani Canadian woman by the name of Angela Joya wrote about the issues that are important to women and children. She said:

More Afghans feel less safe and less secure now than they did now under the Taliban. The failure of the central government to provide any services or employment has discredited it in the eyes of all Afghans. As an Afghan woman, I cannot understand how [the Prime Minister] can defend Karzai's government as a democratic one. As one villager noted, democracy to Afghans means food, jobs, clean drinking water and security. The foreign-supported government has failed to provide any of these things.

Further on in her letter she states:

In light of what Afghans face today five years after the invasion in 2001, Canada's involvement in Afghanistan can only be explained as blind and uncritical support for America's “war on terror” -- a view supported by even Canadian military leaders who have recently disclosed that political pressure from the Bush Administration led to the Canadian government's decision to join the current mission. If Canada really wants to provide genuine help with the reconstruction of Afghanistan, we need to bring the troops home now and formulate an independent strategy that keeps interests of ordinary Afghans at heart.

This was from an Afghan woman. Surely one of the lessons that we have learned is that it is important to talk to the people who are most affected by these policies. We have seen that in so many other venues. I would encourage the government to look for ways to talk to the Afghan people and meet the goals around development and reconstruction. I have received numerous other letters from constituents in my riding.

One of the fundamental things we must look at is how we treat veterans when they come home. A recent Macleans article indicated that people who were injured and, after three years, were not deemed fit to return to full combat duty, were medically discharged. I would argue that we need to look for ways to support our veterans and ensure that when they return home, even if they are not fit for full combat duty, that we provide them with employment within the military that meets their capabilities.

I urge all members of the House to support the NDP motion and bring our troops home in a responsible fashion.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Minister for Democratic Reform]

Mr. Speaker, I must say at the outset that I am somewhat troubled and always confused by the NDP position when it comes to dealing with issues like this. I am not quite sure what the NDP position is with respect to terrorist organizations.

Last summer I was in Quebec City at the NDP convention. I was there on behalf of my party as a media observer and commentator. I recall vividly listening to debate at that time about the Middle East conflict between Hezbollah and the Israelis.

I remember very vividly the hon. member for Winnipeg North getting up to the microphone and reminding the delegates at that convention that Hezbollah in fact is a terrorist organization. The response was that she was booed away from the microphone. It was not an isolated boo or a catcall. It was a chorus of boos.

It made me wonder what the NDP actually thinks. Does the NDP not recognize that terrorist organizations in this world are a real threat to the security of all Canadians?

The question I had for the member from Halifax later on a panel show was, “Do you not agree that if Canadian troops and in fact all troops were removed from Afghanistan the Taliban would regain control, and what would that mean to the women and children of that country?”

I never got a complete answer and--

[The Deputy Speaker, NDP, Bill Blaikie]

The hon. member for Nanaimo--Cowichan.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the New Democrats have always called for a responsible withdrawal. That does not mean we get up tomorrow morning at eight o'clock and say that the troops are out by the end of the day. What we have talked about is working with our partners in Afghanistan to ensure that the Canadian mission changes from one of counter-insurgency to one of redevelopment and reconciliation.

We clearly believe that Canada has a responsibility and a role in Afghanistan. Given the fact that we have been in there now for a number of years, we cannot just abandon the Afghani people, but we are strongly opposed to a counter-insurgency mission. Instead, we want to see Canadian dollars and Canadian troops focused on redevelopment and reconstruction that will actually lead to ongoing peace and security in the long run.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, on March 27 five Afghan medical specialists were kidnapped by the Taliban while returning from their work at a displaced persons camp outside Kandahar. The five are still being held by the Taliban. On April 22 local media reported that one had been killed.

On April 4 the Taliban kidnapped two French aid workers, along with two Afghan colleagues, in Nimruz province. The Taliban claims to have executed the women, although we do not have proof of that.

On April 17 five UN aid workers were killed by the Taliban in an attack that took place in Kandahar city.

This is not about the Taliban targeting Canadian soldiers. This is about the Taliban targeting anybody who is trying to make life better for the Afghan people.

I want to ask my hon. colleague if this is the kind of partner that she would like to work with. Does she not recognize that it cannot be won militarily but it cannot be won without the military protecting the kind of people the Taliban are murdering every day?

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Mr. Speaker, we absolutely condemn acts of torture and acts of violence.

Again, we only have to look to the Canadian government's current role in what is happening with prisoners that we are turning over and the allegations of torture that are currently under way.

What we have to do is work with partners in Afghanistan, with other NATO countries that are supporting redevelopment and reconstruction, in looking for ways that we can work toward that long-lasting peace and security.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Mr. Speaker, first of all, the hon. member for Nanaimo—Cowichan asked a question. I do agree and support the courageous men and women who are serving on behalf of Canadians anywhere in the world.

I agree with her on all of the issues that she mentioned and all the perspectives of her speech except one. That one thing is that she now wants to bring the forces home right away.

In fact, when I look at the difference between the Liberals on this side and the Conservatives over there it is this: whenever any agreement was made, whether it was the child care agreement for our children or the Kelowna agreement with our first nations, the Conservatives have always backed out. In fact, they have backed out of the Kyoto agreement, which we made on the international stage.

However, now the government has made an international agreement with that country until--

[The Deputy Speaker, NDP, Bill Blaikie]

The hon. member for Nanaimo—Cowichan.