House of Commons Hansard #141 of the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was troops.

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The House resumed consideration of the motion.

Opposition Motion—AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:05 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the member for West Nova.

It is pleasure to rise in the House and represent my constituents of Don Valley East on an issue that is of great concern to every Canadian, namely Canada's participation in the NATO-led mission in Afghanistan.

As this is the second major debate on this issue in as many days, it is no wonder why more and more Canadians are expressing interest in the courageous services being provided by men and women of the Canadian armed forces currently serving in Afghanistan.

There is no doubt that all Canadians fully support our armed forces, but lately people across the country are beginning to harbour certain doubts about the Minister of National Defence and the Conservative government's future plans for Afghanistan.

Earlier this week the Liberal caucus introduced a motion in the House, which would have provided Canadians with a definite conclusion to Canada's combat mission as scheduled in February 2009. The motion would have given our NATO allies sufficient time to find a replacement country and still permit Canada to continue its diplomatic and reconstruction efforts throughout Afghanistan.

No one is under the allusion that Afghanistan will become a fully self-sufficient state when are troops are scheduled to depart in February 2009. It will take a concerted effort by the entire international community to a solid foundation upon which Afghanistan can provide the basic needs of its people.

When Canadian Forces first arrived in the country after the September 11 attacks on New York and Washington, Afghanistan was already a failed state, wracked by over 30 years of civil war and the disastrous occupation by the former Soviet Union. After the anti-communist mujahdeen forced the USSR to withdraw from Afghanistan in 1989, the country descended into a series of civil wars and was divided up among warlords.

When the Taliban assumed control of Afghanistan in 1996, they did not inherit a country but rather a land locked region that featured few natural resources and a mountainous terrain that made control of its borders extremely difficult to secure.

Indeed, the diverse population of Afghanistan is a reflection of many of its neighbours and its cultural mosaic of Pashtun, Tajik, Hazaras, Uzbek, Aimaks, Turkmen and many other minorities make it difficult for a population to assume a single national Afghan identity.

So far the road to political reconstruction has been a hard journey. Damaging earthquakes, limited fresh water resources, inadequate supplies of potable water, soil degradation, overgrazing, deforestation, air and water pollution and a crumbling infrastructure have all combined to make civil reconstruction a daunting task in the midst of continuous attacks by suicide bombers launched by the Taliban.

That is why the Liberal Party does not support the NDP motion before us. It is an irresponsible motion. To immediately withdraw Canadian combat troops from the area, as the NDP proposes today, would not only send a disturbing message to our NATO allies, it would send a confusing and ambiguous message to the people of Afghanistan.

Canadian armed forces are in Afghanistan for a purpose. I can assure the House that no Liberal government would ever shirk our obligation to NATO. Nor would we break our promise to the Afghan people.

A Liberal government would engage in real diplomatic efforts with our NATO allies to share the burden in southern Afghanistan and press Washington and Islamabad to do more to stop the infiltration of foreign fighters from outside the border.

To win the hearts and minds of the Afghan people, perhaps the first major step forward would be to end the chronic water shortage. Poppies, which fuel the illegal heroin trade and fund the Taliban, are one of the few crops in Afghanistan that can survive the arid climate without proper irrigation. With a rebuilt water reservoir and canals, farmers would no longer be forced into the poppy trade by the Taliban and they could begin to branch off into different crops to feed the domestic market and perhaps develop foreign markets.

By February 2009, when Canada is scheduled to end its combat role, our forces will have served for seven straight years, three of those in the most dangerous part in southern Afghanistan.

Canadians are fully aware that success in Afghanistan cannot be achieved by military means alone. Furthermore, the Afghan people should not be led to believe that the battle against the Taliban, the protection of villages, the construction of schools and roads are the responsibility of foreigners. We need to help Afghan people build capacity.

Canada should provide much more training and assistance to the Afghan army, police, and doing more to improve its justice system. We should not be building prisons as the public safety minister recently suggested.

Earlier this week the NDP had an opportunity to join the Liberals and provide Canadians with a clear military mandate for Canadian troops in Afghanistan. They chose instead to side with the Conservatives to continue the military mission for an undeclared period.

Today the NDP has suddenly changed its mind and is now trying to cover its tracks by insisting on an immediate withdrawal. This is not the leadership that our armed forces overseas deserve.

For the good of Canadians and for the good of our armed forces, the Liberals call on the Prime Minister to fulfill our mandate until February 2009 and immediately inform our allies that Canada will end its combat role in Afghanistan on schedule.

Opposition Motion—AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:15 p.m.

Calgary East Alberta

Conservative

Deepak Obhrai ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs

Mr. Speaker, I am always amazed at how the Liberal Party can twist facts and figures, and completely deny what it has done.

First, she says the Liberal government would work with NATO. The Liberals were the government until 2006. What did it do? Nothing.

Then she says that the mission in Afghanistan is of an undeclared time. The House passed a motion that the mission in Afghanistan is until February 2009 and that was very clear. Yet she wants to say an undeclared time. At the same time, she stands up and talks about the reconstruction of everything, as if Canada is not doing enough.

Perhaps the member can look at the Afghan compact and see what Canada is doing. She mentioned that Canada was building prisons. No, we are training police officers and the Afghan army. We are doing everything that is in the compact, and that was agreed to with the international community and the government of Afghanistan.

Perhaps the hon. member would read the compact and see what has been achieved in Afghanistan, and then make an informed decision on these things.

Opposition Motion—AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:15 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Mr. Speaker, the first thing that the member should remember is that it is the defence minister of the Conservative government who has been flip-flopping. We made a decision to stay until 2009. The defence minister kept saying it might be 15 years. It would be better if the government would remove an incompetent defence minister from the House.

Second, in terms of the successes that we want from Afghanistan, when a people do not have the ability to feed themselves, if they do not have economic security, then they must have economic security. We need to be able to help them feed themselves and find alternatives, which is what the government has not done.

In fact, the previous Liberal government put in money for diplomacy and development. It is through those developmental efforts that Canada went in with the NGOs to build schools, build infrastructure, but we need to do more to help the Afghan people. We have to ensure that the Afghan people understand that we are there with them to develop sustainability and transfer knowledge. We have to be there in a diplomatic and a development role.

Opposition Motion—AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:15 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Speaker, I listened very attentively to the presentation by the Liberal member and now I think it is fair to say in this corner of the House we are more confused than ever.

The Liberals came out in favour of the actual position. The combat mission in Afghanistan was essentially a Liberal concocted strategy. Then they voted against the extension of the mission though enough Liberals, including the deputy leader of the Liberal Party, voted in favour of the extension of the mission which led to the situation we are in now.

Then the Liberals tried another flip-flop and said essentially they want to extend the mission for two years and then afterwards there may be a withdrawal. Now they finally have in front of them a motion that is very clear and the Liberals are all over the map again.

It is fair to say, for Canadians who have tried to follow and have tried some faith in Liberal policies, it is just another sign that they just do not know where they are going. They just cannot get things done.

Here is a motion that says very clearly that we would begin withdrawing Canadian Forces in a safe and secure manner from the counter-insurgency mission in Afghanistan. It appears that the Liberals, who a couple of days ago were saying that they were not in favour and a few days before that saying they were in favour, are now saying they do not really know, or perhaps they will vote against it, or perhaps they will vote in favour.

I simply have to ask the member this. Does she understand that every time the Liberals come up with a new position, how much that undermines their own credibility with the Canadian public?

Opposition Motion—AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:20 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am sure the hon. member is very concerned about the confusion that the NDP is creating by supporting the Conservatives. When the Liberal government sent troops, we sent them to Camp Julian. Our mission was development, defence and diplomacy, and we have stuck to it.

The NDP motion asks for immediate withdrawal which is a very irresponsible motion. The NDP could have voted for the motion that was put before the House a day or so ago which talked about the fact that an exit strategy should be there by February 2009. That would give an opportunity for NATO to find a replacement. The NDP is being irresponsible and it can keep on being irresponsible because it will never be government.

Opposition Motion—AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:20 p.m.

Liberal

Robert Thibault Liberal West Nova, NS

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak to this motion which I cannot support.

I look at this motion and I remember the debate last year or maybe the year before when NDP members were saying that our troops should not be in Afghanistan but that they should all be in Kandahar. I do not know what they thought they would do in Kandahar. Maybe they thought they would have a marshmallow and a weenie roast. I think the bullets pierce the skin there also. It is just as dangerous.

I was part of the government that, in the wake of the events of September 11, 2001, had to come to grips with a brand new international situation. The West went through something it had never experienced before: a major terrorist attack at home. A NATO member country, a Canadian partner, was attacked by an organization sponsored by a country. An attack on one NATO member country is an attack on all member countries, and they must respond. That is what Canada did. We made a commitment, along with other NATO partners, to oust the Taliban regime, which had planned the attack with al-Qaeda. We knew that we were not setting out on a quick, three to six month-long international mission. We knew that our soldiers would not be coming home soon.

As a member of this House and a minister at the time, I knew in my heart that it would be a long mission. We were going into a country in trouble, and if we ousted the regime, we would create a period of total instability, which is what we have now. NATO asked us to play a very demanding role: to go into Kandahar, probably the most difficult region in all Afghanistan. We agreed.

The current Conservative government introduced a motion in this House to increase our involvement and guarantee to NATO member countries that we would remain in Afghanistan until 2009 at least. I voted in favour of that motion, not because I agreed with it, because I was opposed to it in principle. But I maintain that this is a decision by the government. The government has to explain it to Canadians and suffer the consequences. The decision cannot be made in the House of Commons after only three hours of debate and without all the information we need to come to a decision about something like this.

The decision was imposed on me, and I voted in favour of the motion, which supported our men and women serving in Afghanistan or preparing to leave for duty there. The motion also supported the other NATO member countries which, like us, are taking risks.

I believe that it is quite reasonable to tell the other member countries that we are going to put an end to this situation, where we are most at risk. I do not believe that we need to tell NATO right away when we are going to withdraw completely from Afghanistan. Our party proposed a motion saying that we would withdraw from the Kandahar region in February 2009, which would have given the other NATO members plenty of time to find a replacement to take over our role in that region.

That is not what is being asked here. The New Democrats voted against our motion and today they are asking us to say so long to the member states of NATO, to say we are leaving, we are gone. They want us to say the same thing to the Afghans whom we are currently protecting and who, like us, had hopes for a better country. We have to tell them that we are no longer there to protect them, to help with their development, and that they can be massacred by internal factions in Afghanistan that want to go back to the days of the Taliban and al-Qaeda, and all that. They want us to leave these people behind. I cannot accept that.

I attended a conference organized by the Pearson Peacekeeping Centre from my riding, at the building across the street, the National Press Club in Ottawa. I listened to soldiers who served over there. Some sergeants said that Canadians had won all the battles in Kandahar—all of them. I also listened to representatives from the Red Cross and the RCMP who told us that if we withdraw, it would be game over. We want there to be to assist in development and bring in diplomacy. The Liberal Party, and everyone else, wants the 3D system. We cannot have development and diplomacy without security, and that is what our troops are there for. This is a difficult role that they are fulfilling wonderfully, and I commend them for that.

However, we must protect them. We have to let them know how much longer they will be there and what their involvement will be. We have to assure these troops, these young men and women, that there will be one rotation, not two or three. They are not going to be in that region for 10 or 15 years because there is going to be one rotation and they will no longer be there.

What I should absolutely mention, and what I think is important for Canadians to understand if they are questioning the decision of whether or not we should be in Afghanistan, is what our military stands for, and that is the right to debate the decisions of the government. That is what freedom is.

It is not an absence of support for our troops when Canadians say we should or should not be there, or when they have their discussions or we have them here in the House. When I hear the government say that people who question the role are not supporting the troops, I find that completely idiotic and completely counterproductive. I support the role they are playing. Others may not. They have a right to that opinion. That is democracy.

The other question that I think is very important to raise at this time is the question that we have been debating on the Geneva convention. If we members of the opposition in this House are so strong in support of the Geneva convention and making sure that we are not contravening it by turning our prisoners of war over to people who may be contravening it, it is in defence of our fighting women and fighting men.

Either in this conflict or future conflicts 50 years down the line, our fighting women and fighting men may be prisoners of war. Their protection of not being abused and tortured is that all countries live with the agreement of the Geneva convention. They live within its boundaries and its restrictions. If we knowingly or unknowingly break the convention, we are ultimately putting at risk our soldiers, our fighting women and men, in the future.

Therefore, I hope and I ask that the Prime Minister will take this question seriously, that he recognize that his government has been unable to do that at present, that his minister has been unable to have the confidence of Canadians, of our allies and of our military. He has the ability to do that.

It is not the fault of the military. We do not blame the military. The members of the military do their role in the field and they turn prisoners over in accordance to the instructions that are given. The instructions have been to turn them over to the Afghani authorities rather than create prisons.

There are serious questions, questions brought forth at many levels by Canadian organizations, the foreign affairs department and Corrections Canada, and by the Afghani government and international organizations that say these prisoners may be at risk.

I am not going to give absolutes as to whether or not they were tortured because I do not know, but they may be at risk. That in itself is a contravention. If we are turning them over in a situation where we are not sure, where even our Department of Foreign Affairs tells us that it is not sure, that it cannot guarantee they are being handled properly and in accordance with the Geneva convention, I would not accept that for a moment if a combatant country, an enemy of Canada, was doing that with our soldiers in a conflict.

I would not accept it for a moment if a country that kept prisoners, rather than treating them in accordance with the convention, turned them over to another country where they might be at risk. I think it is what we talked about in the Arar case, where the Americans turned over to Syria a person they had in their possession. We know about the rest of that case.

I think it is important to take this matter seriously. I think it would be the wrong message to send to our partners and to Canadians and to our military if we did not. I went to three funerals of soldiers who died in Afghanistan. I have seen their families.

There is a soldier in the last incident who is from the Yarmouth area, whose legs were severely damaged. Six of his colleagues were lost. He supports the mission. To tell him today, without any resolution to the conflict, without any security for the Afghanis, that his six colleagues were lost for nothing, for no resolution, for no future for this, and that he will have difficulties with his legs for the rest of his life and it was all for naught, it would be completely irresponsible.

To tell Jim Davis of Bridgewater, whose son died there, that his son was lost for nothing, that it was a mistake, that in one resolution of the House without fully considering the repercussions on those people for whom he lost his life to improve their situation, to do that with one vote, it would be completely irresponsible.

To tell the Thibodeaus in my riding, whose son took a year off university with the reserves and is now in Afghanistan, that his risk is all for naught, it would be completely irresponsible.

I cannot support the motion.

Opposition Motion—AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:30 p.m.

Prince George—Peace River B.C.

Conservative

Jay Hill ConservativeSecretary of State and Chief Government Whip

Mr. Speaker, I listened with great interest to my hon. colleague. Certainly I think he was speaking from the heart, especially at the end of his remarks when he was talking about the soldiers and the families of the fallen.

I could not agree more with him that this is a reckless and irresponsible motion. It puts our soldiers who are still in theatre at a greater risk. It is of comfort only to our enemies, not our armed forces personnel.

I would also draw for the member a similar perspective on the motion on which we just voted and the hon. member supported. February 2009 is still almost two years away. There is a lot of work to be done. As he just admitted by his own remarks when he talked about a tragically injured soldier who had returned home, he still supports the mission. He still supports the objectives and the goals and the things we hope we can accomplish in concert with the Afghan people.

I would point this out to the hon. member. We are debating a motion today that I agree is completely irresponsible. In fact, I would use the term ludicrous. It is irresponsible to send a signal that we want to pull out immediately. It is also irresponsible to send a signal to the Taliban and to our enemies, the terrorists, who are fighting our brave young men and women in Afghanistan, that if they can just hold on and inflict as much damage as possible to February 2009, then no matter what happens in February 2009 we will pull out, no matter what stage the conflict is at. That, too, is completely irresponsible.

Opposition Motion—AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

Robert Thibault Liberal West Nova, NS

Mr. Speaker, I do not think the member understood the motion that was put before the House by the Liberal Party on an opposition day motion.

The motion was not saying that the Government of Canada would remove its troops from Afghanistan. The motion was that we advise our partners within NATO that we would be withdrawing from the mission in Kandahar in February 2009, as per a previous vote of the House, that we would maintain that commitment in that time, and that we would give a lot of time for our allies to find a replacement nation to carry on that role in that area.

We did not say that we would bring out all our military. We did not say we would stop the diplomatic or developmental work. All we are saying is that within that one region, that one mission, perhaps it is time for another one. Perhaps we should be telling our men and women that one rotation is enough.

When we hear the minister saying that 2009 is the limit, which is what the minister stated in the House, that 2009 is the limit for now, but we hear that he has made some orders for tanks to be delivered in that area after February 2009, our men and women in the service are nervous. They remember that not too long ago he thought about extending terms of service within the rotation. He talked about cross-training from other services, that perhaps the navy or--

Opposition Motion—AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:35 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

The hon. member for Burnaby—New Westminster.

Opposition Motion—AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:35 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Speaker, it is clear today that the Conservatives are prepared to send the sons and daughters of more families to Afghanistan, even though everything that is happening with the mission in Afghanistan makes no sense to Canadians, and even though it means placing our brave men and women in a very dangerous situation.

The Conservatives are willing to do this. They are not thinking about the full implications. They are willing to send the sons and daughters of even more families. I think it is very sad. I do not understand why the Liberals are prepared to give the Conservative Party carte blanche for the next two years, and allow the Conservatives to do whatever they like with our brave men and women.

The Liberals say they are willing to give this carte blanche, while the NDP is proposing a reasonable and important solution, which involves the safe and secure withdrawal of the Canadian Forces from the counter-insurgency mission in Afghanistan. The NDP calls for Canada to focus its efforts to assist the people of Afghanistan on a diplomatic solution, and redouble its commitment to reconstruction and development—

Opposition Motion—AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:35 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

The hon. member for West Nova.

Opposition Motion—AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Robert Thibault Liberal West Nova, NS

Mr. Speaker, on the contrary, the New Democrats are not proposing any solution. They are saying simply that we should suddenly and immediately pull out of this mission in the Kandahar region of Afghanistan—goodbye, we are leaving—without any replacements.

We are not giving the Conservatives carte blanche. We are talking about a withdrawal in 2009, as voted in this House. That is the will of the House and therefore must be respected.

We predict that in February 2009, we, the Liberals, will form the government. At that time, we will make the decisions and take action as the government. We are in no way giving carte blanche to the Conservatives, who will then be on the opposition benches.

Opposition Motion—AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:35 p.m.

NDP

Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the member for Victoria.

The most difficult moment in my parliamentary career was on May 17, 2006, when the House voted to extend the current mission in Afghanistan. It was difficult because, of all the decisions that I am called upon to make as a member of Parliament, the decision to be at war has to be the most significant. It is a decision that I took and that I take with absolute seriousness.

Like my party, I believe the mission in Afghanistan is the wrong mission for Canada and that it is not a mission that is ultimately destined to bring peace to Afghanistan and its people or to the region or to the world. I do not believe that it increases Canada's security or the security of people around the world. I do not believe that it can protect us from terrorism. I believe that we are in a war that cannot be won militarily.

I believe this war represents a huge departure from Canada's hopes for our armed forces and for their role in the world. I believe that Canadians are heavily invested in Canada playing a peacekeeping role in time of conflict and that they believe the men and women of our armed forces have developed special skills, special expertise and hard won experience in that vital kind of work. Canadians know and are proud that the Canadian armed forces are respected around the world for their ability to do that specialized, dangerous, hopeful and necessary kind of work.

I cannot think of a more important vote in the history of the 39th Parliament. Perhaps there are not many more important in the longer history of this place. I have to say I appreciate that the Conservative government gave MPs the opportunity to vote on the extension of the mission last May. I do have problems with the speed of the process, but an issue such as this should be decided here. That at least was the correct decision, one which the previous Liberal government did not afford us.

It is important because war making is something we must never do lightly. War always involves a huge compromise of our hopes for humanity, our hopes for our country and how we resolve conflict in our world. A decision for war always involves a decision to ask many people to put themselves in danger, to risk their lives for our decisions, as we have asked the men and women of the Canadian armed forces to do.

As we knew they would, these men and women have answered our call and are serving bravely and with distinction. We have seen tragedy and many lives lost due to our decision. However, we must never ask them to do that kind of work without ensuring clarity of our request and solid and deep support for the mission they have been asked to undertake. Sadly, I do not believe that there exists in Canada the necessary level of support for this kind of mission.

Therefore, it is with sadness and frustration that I come to this debate, sadness because if the Liberals had chosen, if they had been clear and if they had all bothered to attend the vote in May 2006, we could be on the way to being withdrawn from this mission already. We already could have made a decision that this was not the right mission for Canada and we could be pursuing other solutions to this conflict, solutions more in keeping with Canada's traditional peacekeeping role and with the way Canadians want their country to act in the world. We could be undertaking peacekeeping in other parts of the world.

The NDP position has been clear and consistent. We have voted along clear and consistent lines since the beginning of this conflict.

We raised serious questions about our participation in the mission when it was originally proposed as Operation Enduring Freedom by the Liberals, despite the difficulties and fears that surrounded us at that time immediately post-September 11.

We have consistently called for a peacekeeping role, for development aid and for diplomacy.

Last August the federal NDP convention passed a very clear resolution that called for a safe and immediate withdrawal of our troops from Afghanistan and said that we should continue our aid, undertake diplomacy, support our troops and participate in peacekeeping missions through the United Nations in other areas of the world.

I, like many Canadians, support a full withdrawal from Afghanistan. I do not believe we can play a significant peacekeeping role there now that we have been a combatant on one side of the conflict.

In past debates in the House I have raised concerns about the militarization of development aid.

Mr. Speaker, you will remember a take note debate in the previous Parliament where I asked you in the course of that debate about that very issue.

I still believe that Canada must hold the tradition of civilian, not military, delivery of development aid. I remain convinced that development projects done by the military become targets for our enemies, endangering those who utilize those projects and, should they actually be destroyed, wasting precious development dollars.

We have committed a serious error in not maintaining responsibility for prisoners taken by Canadian troops in Afghanistan. It has been clear that the government does not understand the gravity of our ill-informed policy to turn over prisoners to the Afghan government. It is clear that torture happens in Afghan prisons. The Afghan human rights agency has acknowledged this. The U.S. State Department has acknowledged this. We know the Afghan ability to monitor the conditions of prisoners is almost nil in Kandahar province.

We in this corner of the House have known and raised our concerns about it for many months. Our defence critic, the member for New Westminster—Coquitlam, raised this issue in her very first question in the very first question period following the most recent election.

We know the monitoring by the Red Cross often mentioned by the Minister of National Defence was a fiction. This should never have been left to chance. We should have taken responsibility. When problems were identified, we should have addressed them.

I remain very concerned that our actions in Afghanistan have been in violation of our commitment to the Geneva convention. Our commitment to the Geneva convention must be absolute. We must follow its spirit and principles to the letter. This is not the fault of the men and women of the Canadian armed forces. This is the fault of our political leadership in both the previous Liberal government and the current Conservative government.

Canadians want Canada to play a role in Darfur. There is now an opportunity to participate in a key role in a UN peacekeeping force in Somalia and in Darfur. Our commitment to peacekeeping has dropped dismally since the deployment to Afghanistan. I am told that our entire peacekeeping contingent would fit on one bus with room to spare.

Canada must be sure that we have the ability to respond to peacekeeping missions. We have particular expertise and experience and a good reputation for that work, and we know it is very dangerous work. It in no way represents the easy way out or an avoidance of responsibility. It calls on the men and women of our armed forces to risk life and limb.

I want to express my condolences to all who have lost loved ones. My thoughts and prayers are with those who serve in Afghanistan in the armed forces or are doing diplomatic or development work. My thoughts and prayers are with those who have been injured physically and psychologically related to their service for their country or the service of a loved one.

In the end, I believe this is the wrong mission for Canada. We must begin immediately to withdraw safely and responsibly. We must take that decision now, not two years from now. This is the wrong mission for Canada. We must begin the process of withdrawal, not wait for years.

I did not support the Liberal motion last week to withdraw in 2009 because I believe that this is the wrong mission today. If I believe it is wrong to ask the men and women of the Canadian armed forces to remain in Afghanistan one minute longer than necessary.

Opposition Motion—AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Myron Thompson Conservative Wild Rose, AB

Mr. Speaker, because there are so many people who want to ask questions, I will try to be quick. However, because I am quite emotional about this issue, I may not be too quick.

The member said today was a sad day for him to rise in the House. Let me tell the member what a sad day was for me. It was when I walked into the House the other day and had to vote on a motion from the Liberal Party.

There is a saying that evil thrives when good men do nothing, which is so true. This place is full of good men and good women who want to see evil defeated.

I do not want anybody to forget 9/11 when the great towers came down and a number of Canadians lost their lives with thousands of others because of the evil jihad by the Taliban and al-Qaeda, which had a mission to destroy.

What I want to see happen in Afghanistan is called victory. Victory is possible as long as good men and good women do their—

Opposition Motion—AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

I am going to cut the hon. member off there because there are a lot of people who want to ask questions.

The hon. member for Burnaby--Douglas.

Opposition Motion—AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

Mr. Speaker, I do not think there is anyone in this place who would ever say that what happened on September 11 in New York City and in Washington was anything other than an expression of the most evil to which humanity could rise.

We can reasonably disagree on what appropriate action to take in light of the expression of that kind of evil. I do not happen to believe a war on terrorism, the kind that we are undertaking in Afghanistan, is the kind of response that will protect us from the expression of this kind of evil. I do not believe this kind of military operation, this kind of ground war, is a significant way of dealing with the issue of terrorism around the world.

If I had seen anything that would convince me of this, maybe I would be in a different place today. I do not believe we address terrorism by the kind of war that we are indulging in Afghanistan.

Opposition Motion—AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased the member raised the issue of the detainees, which seems to have seized the House for most of this week.

The issue here, and I would like the member's comment, appears to be the Geneva convention. It appears the government is of the view that anything that has been said are simply allegations. Those allegations include matters which have been revealed to show that the Afghanistan military intelligence and police forces have been accused of involvement in arbitrary arrest, kidnapping, extortion, torture and extrajudicial killing of criminal suspects.

If the government believes there are allegations of these matters, surely under the Geneva Convention there is an obligation and a duty of the signatories, of which Canadian is one, to follow up on those allegations and to take all necessary steps to determine the facts rather than continue for a whole—

Opposition Motion—AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

The hon. member for Burnaby—Douglas.

Opposition Motion—AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

Mr. Speaker, it is even more serious than that. I do not think Canada should be turning over prisoners of war when there is an outstanding allegation of torture, when there is any evidence that torture might be practised on those people by the organization to which we are turning them over.

The Afghan human rights commission itself has said that torture is regularly practised in prisons in Afghanistan. The U.S. State Department has said that. I do not think anybody would disagree with those statements. In this situation we should not be turning prisoners over to that system. This puts us in violation right at that point. We do not need an inquiry. As soon as that statement is there from those kinds of authorities, we should have stopped that process of prisoner transfer. It is utterly inappropriate—

Opposition Motion—AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

The hon. member for Wellington—Halton Hills.

Opposition Motion—AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Mr. Speaker, the NDP's position on this issue has been completely inconsistent. Last fall the leader of the NDP called for the complete withdrawal of all our troops from Afghanistan. Now, in this motion, the New Democrats are calling for the withdrawal of troops only from southern Afghanistan. The wording in the motion reads, “from this counter-insurgency mission”.

Could the member clarify the NDP's position on the mission in Afghanistan?

Opposition Motion—AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

Mr. Speaker, the NDP's position is absolutely clear. It calls for a safe and immediate withdrawal from Afghanistan. I have been very clear in the House. In May 2006 I stood and said that we should withdraw immediately from Afghanistan. I was very clear in my speech today. I believe there is no other military role for Canada in Afghanistan as a result of our participation in this counter-insurgency combat mission. It is very difficult for us to transfer into a peacekeeping mission after we participated in the current mission in Kandahar.

Therefore, I favour fully and completely withdrawing in a safe and responsible manner, but doing that immediately.

Opposition Motion—AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Denise Savoie NDP Victoria, BC

Mr. Speaker, I will start by acknowledging, from the bottom of my heart, the dedication and the courage of the women and men in the Canadian Forces, and to express my sincere condolences to the families of the fallen.

It is for that reason that I refuse to ask them to continue to risk their lives in an ill-thought out strategy. The mission we are asking them to carry out is simply the wrong mission. It is government's role and government's decision to ensure that this is the right mission.

This discussion today is important. We want to ensure that what we are doing is indeed the right tool to accomplish Canada's goals. We should be asking whether this strategy will solve the growing hostility between the west and some in the Muslim world, whether it will achieve a just and sustainable and peace in Afghanistan.

Last August, the NDP called for the end of Canada's combat mission in Afghanistan. After five years in this war, a war longer than the first world war, the Conservatives and the Liberals, who put us there, should be rethinking Canada's role.

I am especially troubled by the Conservatives' view of the world and of Afghanistan, which was well summarized by the member for Edmonton Centre last week when he said:

This is a war against evil, pure and simple. It is a war against an outfit called the Taliban, which is associated with an outfit called al-Qaeda, which is associated...with a whole bunch of other outfits around the world. They are, pure and simple, in four letters, evil. It is a four letter word.

This is a simplistic mindset, reminiscent of George Bush's approach in Iraq, that I suppose allows the Conservatives to think that complex problems of a different civilization can be solved militarily with air strikes.

The situation in Afghanistan is, by all authoritative reports, incredibly complex. The threads go far beyond the Taliban. The forces of the warlords, who are still in control of militias in Afghanistan, the criminal elements, the porous border with Pakistan, the fact that insurgents can go back and forth across the border with impunity and the criminal elements involved in the poppy production in Afghanistan all contribute to the negative security environment.

I will admit that I do not know much about military tactics and strategy. I leave that to our very competent generals and soldiers.

However, I understand the nature of the conflict, the sociology, and it is not a struggle between good and evil. Saying that it is shows an obvious lack of understanding of the nature of the conflict and of foreign affairs. I do not think the government knows what it is doing in this area. The confusion of its own minister makes that clear.

The Senlis Council and many others continue to say that this war is unwinnable militarily. The government's own Minister of National Defence said the same thing in an interview I heard. The Senlis Council has added that to continue this asymmetrical war risks killing far more civilians and works against Canada's goal.

Because Canada took over command of a previously U.S. led Operation Enduring Freedom and became involved in war fighting, we were seen by many of those that we are trying to help as the enemy. Although Canadian Forces are working hard to promote stability, the security situation by all objective accounts has deteriorated.

Ms. Adeena Niazi of the Afghan Women's Organization of Toronto stated that Afghans do love the Canadians who bring security, peace and development. However, she then asked how we could bring peace when we bring war. It is past time to rethink Canada's current strategy now, not in 2009.

The resolutions to many modern conflicts over the past couple of decades have come about through a peace process that genuinely addresses the political causes and issues of the conflict and, in so doing, isolates the criminal elements.

Eventually, those with genuine political objectives will come forward and those with alternative objectives will be isolated. Those who seek peace will gravitate toward a peace process. If there is no peace process, there is nowhere for them to go.

Canada must begin to work now with their allies to establish a comprehensive peace process and that means with all those involved in the conflict, including neighbouring countries. A sustained program of development aid to help Afghanis move out of abject poverty is required to bring a truly lasting peace.

As John Watson, the director of CARE Canada, said:

...we [cannot] keep concentrating on the military/technological side without undercutting the world view that motivates our enemies.

I want to acknowledge the important role of the military in such a peace process, but it should be one of protection, not aggression. We cannot achieve peace without that cordon of protection but that is far different than the American style, seek and kill, counter-insurgent mission that is presently alienating many Afghans.

Contrary to the claims by the Conservatives that our party does not support the forces, I want to clearly say that I do not doubt that the intentions of our troops or our commanding officers is to achieve peace. I believe that the ultimate goal of the Canadian Forces, like all Canadians, is peace. I do not doubt their courage nor the calibre of their competence.

It is the government's errant strategy that we oppose. It is the government's insensitivity to our international agreements, turning a blind eye to the Geneva convention until prodded by the opposition.

In the NDP, we have a vision for the role Canada can play in the world. We believe Canada can and should be a leader for strategic diplomacy, international law, reversing the arms race, conflict prevention and eradicating world poverty because it is the most effective, proven and ethical approach to global security.

The reason the NDP could not support last week's Liberal motion to extend the Afghan mission for another two years was that it was impossible to reconcile the increasing evidence that this is a failed mission, the insecurity that is growing and the growing number of deaths among our troops and Afghan civilians. The Liberals' motion was not about changing course on a wrong-headed mission. They refused to admit that they got us involved and now they are trying to stand firmly, I would call it, on a paper fence.

If we have the right mission, peace takes a very long time and we cannot put an end date on it two years from now, which is why the motion just did not make sense to me.

At the beginning of every speech that I have heard, everyone has expressed support for the troops but those are just words unless we truly stand up for what we believe would be in the best interest of the troops, of Canada and of global security.

I believe in a mission to bring sustainable peace in Afghanistan. Such a mission would justify asking our troops to make the sacrifices they are willing to make. The current mission is precisely the opposite of such a mission and to support it, based on a narrow and sometimes, as it has seemed to me, cartoonish understanding of the conflict, is not supporting our troops. It is asking them to be cannon fodder in a backward strategy with no hope for success, and I cannot accept that for one more day.

Today's motion would end this wrong-headed counter-insurgent mission and begin immediately with the right mission, one for a just, prosperous and sustainable peace. There is no other way.

Opposition Motion—AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

Conservative

Dick Harris Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Mr. Speaker, would the Taliban not just love this Parliament voting in favour of this NDP motion? Would they not love the Canadian troops, who are making such significant gains in the rebuilding of Afghanistan after the murderous regime of the Taliban, to be pulled out? Would they not just love the other countries to take a similar path like the NDP are suggesting and pull their troops out?

Would the Taliban not love the ease with which they could return to their murderous regime, murdering anyone who was of any assistance trying to rebuild the country and the women and children indiscriminately returning to the gross and obscene oppression that they forced upon the people of Afghanistan?