House of Commons Hansard #60 of the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was c-10.

Topics

Opposition Motion—Income Tax ActBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

I know, Mr. Speaker, that the truth really hurts.

Could the member clearly spell out how this really is a backdoor censorship policy under the guise of a tax policy by the government?

Opposition Motion—Income Tax ActBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his question.

When a decision is made to amend a law, it is because something in the law is not working and something needs to be added. When there is nothing to amend, no law or amendment is made. Like it or not, we have to ask ourselves why the government wants to make this amendment if everything is fine? Like it or not, an expression as general as “public policy” can be interpreted in any number of ways.

For example, if two characters in a film have sex and can be seen slightly, is that contrary to public policy? We have to wonder. Would films like Bon Cop, Bad Cop meet the criterion or not?

In my opinion, when no change is needed, then no law or bill should be drafted. There is no need to do anything.

Opposition Motion—Income Tax ActBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

France Bonsant Bloc Compton—Stanstead, QC

Mr. Speaker, I listened carefully to the speech by my colleague, the member for Ahuntsic. As I understand it, the government wants to adopt a bill to amend primarily the Income Tax Act because Canada is already subsidizing regular or child pornography or hate propaganda. That is my understanding. Canada is already financing pornography, and that is why the government is making a change with regard to public policy.

I would like my colleague's reaction.

Opposition Motion—Income Tax ActBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

Mr. Speaker, I understand my colleague's question. This is what she said: if the government presently provides tax credits for pornography or child pornography, there is a problem. We must therefore ensure that that no longer happens.

I will simply say to my colleague that, at present, no pornographic movies receive tax credits and therefore are not indirectly funded by the state. With regard to child pornography, whether or not we like it, it is punished by the Criminal Code. It is illegal in Canada and in Quebec. Therefore, why amend a law if it is not necessary? Whether we like it or not, it is so they can introduce censorship through the back door.

Opposition Motion—Income Tax ActBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Gary Goodyear Conservative Cambridge, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am quite thrilled by the arts. My riding of Cambridge has a new theatre that will bring $80 million in spinoffs to the riding, create jobs and bring in great Canadian productions. We are waiting for the province of Ontario to kick in its share.

Even though the federal government contributed some money to that project, none of these productions will contain offensive material. They will not be like some of the things we have seen in the past, which were sponsored by the Liberal Party, movies like Bubbles Galore and Penis Dementia: the Perfect Penis. These kinds of movies are offensive to some people in my riding and they do not want their tax dollars to be spent in that fashion.

This initiative was started by the Liberal Party many years ago and was supported by all parties, including that member's party. What is the flip-flop here?

Opposition Motion—Income Tax ActBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

Mr. Speaker, once again my colleague is not asking a direct question. I will nevertheless try to reply.

Currently there are pornographic or “offensive” movies. Here again, what is meant by “offensive”? That may mean one thing to my Conservative colleague and another to me. Perhaps it may mean something completely different for my NDP colleague and for my Liberal colleague. What does “offensive” mean?

Once again we have a word that means many things and that can cover many acts in a movie. In my opinion, a porn movie is offensive and I do not agree with funding this type of movie.

Opposition Motion—Income Tax ActBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:50 p.m.

Louis-Saint-Laurent Québec

Conservative

Josée Verner ConservativeMinister of Canadian Heritage

Mr. Speaker, I will share my time with the member for Abbotsford.

I am pleased to speak today to Bill C-10. I will start by saying that over the last few days, we have heard a lot of false information about the purpose and scope of Bill C-10, An Act to Amend the Income Tax Act, in connection with tax credits for the production of films and videos.

I would like to take this opportunity to set the record straight and to discuss several things.

First, Bill C-10 is in no way a form of censorship. It is not our goal to interfere with freedom of expression, as the opposition would have us believe. Absolutely not. This bill would ensure the integrity of the tax system. The objective of this bill is to reassure taxpayers about the way public funds are spent. Since the Conservative government is responsible, this issue is important to us.

As some hon. members are aware, the Minister of Canadian Heritage has discretionary power to refuse to issue a film or video production certificate if, in the minister's opinion, the use of public funds is contrary to the public interest. This discretionary power has been in effect since 1995 under the Income Tax Regulations.

The proposed amendments in Bill C-10 come as no surprise to Canada's audiovisual industry. They were announced first in 2002 by the former finance minister in the Liberal government, then in 2003 by that same minister and the former Canadian heritage minister in the Liberal government. We therefore have a hard time understanding why the Liberals and now the Bloc seem to be opposed to the amendments. This is not the first time they have changed their minds, though.

Our government submitted exactly the same amendments to the House of Commons and they were approved by all parties on October 29, 2007, four months ago. All the parties approved the bill last fall. Moreover, four of the 10 provinces use the same wording in their system of tax credits for film production. Three other provinces refer to very similar concepts. In addition, Telefilm Canada, the federal cultural agency that provides financial support for Canadian audiovisual production, also refuses to finance some productions for similar reasons.

Many people have said that Bill C-10 will threaten freedom of expression. Nothing could be further from the truth. Our government continues to passionately defend freedom of expression.

The establishment of reasonable measures, such as the ones contained in Bill C-10, is designed to provide as much opportunity to freedom of expression, as it is consistent with the limits of the law and public policy.

Bill C-10 is about government accountability. It is about responsibility. Our government is a responsible government. A fundamental responsibility we have, as members of Parliament, is to ensure that Canadians are represented in these matters. I believe Bill C-10 does just that.

Bill C-10 also includes many other amendments to the Income Tax Act for which the film industry has asked. For example, amendments to section 241 would permit some disclosure of information to strengthen transparency in the administration of the programs in support of Canada's audiovisual industry.

The proposed amendments will allow the publication of recipients of tax credits, along with the names of the key creative personnel associated with the production. Other amendments simplify the tax credit and hence its benefits.

These measures are in keeping with our government's commitment to transparency, to streamline administrative processes and to reduce unnecessary red tape to make these programs work better for Canadians and, at the same time, make sure that the funds are managed effectively and efficiently.

Beyond the scope of this bill, our government has always demonstrated that it believed in the importance of culture.

We believe that it is important that our programs to support the arts, music, theatre, literature and audiovisual production reflect our country's history and Canadians' experiences. We believe that it is important for Canadians' voice to be heard, just as we believe that everyone should be able to hear it.

Our government has confirmed that commitment in many ways. We recently announced additional funding for festivals, the Canada Council and national museums. Moreover, budget 2006 granted a capital gains tax exemption for donations to public charities, many of which are active in the arts and culture.

Our commitment to culture is also evident on the international scene, as we sponsor and support the UNESCO Convention on the Protection and Promotion of the Diversity of Cultural Expressions.

In addition, our government promotes the creativity of Canada's audiovisual industry every day through many established programs, including the Canadian Feature Film Fund, the Canadian New Media Fund and the Canadian Television Fund.

We are also supporting this industry through co-production agreements and tax credit programs that have proven their worth.

We are also supporting various key organizations that stimulate the creativity of the audiovisual industry. Telefilm Canada, the National Film Board, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation and the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission come to mind.

In 2006-07, our government invested more than $765 million in Canadian audiovisual content: $74 million went to the National Film Board, $96 million to the Canadian Feature Film Fund, $252 million to the Canadian Television Fund, $14 million to the Canadian New Media Fund and $330 million to two tax credit programs.

Although public funds play an important role, we believe that they are not the only means available to develop the audiovisual industry. To stimulate the industry, we need policies, legislation and institutions. Important legislation, such as the Broadcasting Act, the Investment Canada Act and the Income Tax Act, along with other policies and regulations, contribute without a doubt to the success of our audiovisual industry.

Bill C-10 is about fairness and transparency. Many critics have said that the process is unfair and not transparent. With the passage of Bill C-10, the next step is for the Department of Canadian Heritage to conduct consultations with industry groups, as it did informally on March 3, and take full consideration of their comments and concerns. We will ensure that this will not have a negative effect on financing practices within the film industry.

In conclusion, let me address more specifically the audiovisual content. At the CFTPA convention, I stated the importance of content. In an open, global and multi-platform world, reaching Canadian audiences with Canadian content is the single most important objective.

This is why the creation of and the access to high calibre Canadian content that appeals to Canadians are the main drivers of our government's support. This is further evidence of our government's commitment to diverse cultural expression. Canada needs risk-takers to deliver this content and to capture the Canadian audience.

Our government firmly believes in its duty to support artists, creators and everyone who plays a key role in our cultural industries.

I would like to remind all Canadians that our government will continue to pursue this course with passion, respect and transparency.

Opposition Motion—Income Tax ActBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

Mr. Speaker, I listened carefully to the minister's remarks, and now I would like to ask her a question.

The motion we are considering today, if passed, would require the government to propose an amendment to Bill C-10—which is now before the Senate—to remove a certain clause.

If I understand and interpret the minister's remarks correctly, the government has no intention of following up on the House's wish in this regard. Do I understand correctly what the minister said about the motion before us today?

Opposition Motion—Income Tax ActBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

Conservative

Josée Verner Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to tell my colleague that the proposed legislation is nothing new. He is well aware of that fact because he was a member of the former government. This intent was announced by the former Liberal government, by Mr. Manley in 2002 and by Ms. Copps in 2003. This bill received the support of all parties just over four months ago.

What we need to do is make sure that the right hand is doing the same thing as the left. Right now, it is important to set goals to ensure that Canadian funds, Canadian taxpayers' money, will not be used to fund content that is not in line with public policy. In that sense, our intent is to do the same thing that other provinces were or are doing.

Opposition Motion—Income Tax ActBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

Mr. Speaker, what I gather from what the minister is saying is that this aspect of the bill will not contribute to censorship. If that is true, then why is the entire cultural and film community crying censorship. I am not talking about one or two people. The entire community is up in arms: the Association des réalisateurs et réalisatrices du Québec, the Directors Guild of Canada. I could go on. Creators, producers, the entire community is crying censorship.

Could it be that everyone is wrong and the minister is right? She will have to explain that to me.

Opposition Motion—Income Tax ActBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

Conservative

Josée Verner Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

Mr. Speaker, if I understand the Bloc member's logic correctly, her party supported this bill for four months until, all of a sudden, it found there may be something contentious and it is now opposing the bill in order to make political gains. That is the only reason the Bloc has decided to stand up on this point.

For several days now there have been conversations between industry people and officials from my department and my office, simply to explain the direction the government would like to take in amending the Income Tax Act.

Allow me to correct what the hon. member said earlier. As we speak, even if a producer is being prosecuted under the Criminal Code, he could technically obtain a tax credit. That is the reality. And that is not what the hon. member said earlier. What she said was incorrect. If she had read the bill, she would know that.

Opposition Motion—Income Tax ActBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

Mr. Speaker, I think it is very important that the minister define some of the terminology that she has used this afternoon and which appears in the bill.

Could she define what she means by the public interest when it comes to an issuance of a certificate of a film and video tax credit and also what the legislation means when it talks about something being “contrary to public policy”? What is it specifically? How is that defined? What does that mean when it comes to the application of the eligibility for a certificate for the Canadian film and video tax credit?

Opposition Motion—Income Tax ActBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Josée Verner Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

Mr. Speaker, surely the hon. member must know that we are talking about rules that are already being applied in the book and magazine industry. One thing is certain, the famous guidelines will be set. As I said in my speech, we will hold consultations with industry people. We will take their comments into consideration and set the guidelines, as we should, after Bill C-10 is passed.

Opposition Motion—Income Tax ActBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have the opportunity to engage in this debate on Bill C-10. My sole purpose today is to correct the public record regarding this bill.

As we know, Bill C-10 is a very specific amendment to the Income Tax Act and it clarifies our government's support for the Canadian film production industry. The bill simply permits the federal government to refuse to issue film tax credits where there are sound public policy reasons for doing so.

Regrettably, the debate has been muddied by unfair and inaccurate information emanating primarily from the opposition parties in this House.

From the outset, let me correct the public record by saying that, unlike what has been suggested this past week, the indisputable fact is that this proposal did not even originate with our current Conservative government. For anyone willing to actually examine the issue, it is abundantly clear that this proposed legislation originated with previous Liberal governments, going back to 1995.

As this fact seems to have escaped some of my conspiracy theory colleagues on the opposition benches, it might be helpful to review the historical record of this legislation.

As I have just stated, the very first time a previous Liberal government suggested a public policy limitation on the certification of films or video productions was back in 1995, some 13 years ago. The original release of the draft film tax credit regulations by the previous Liberal government provided discretion to the Minister of Canadian Heritage to refuse eligibility for film or video tax credits if the provision of public financial assistance--in other words, taxpayers' hard-earned dollars--would, in the opinion of the minister, be “contrary to public policy”.

Then again in 2002, the federal Department of Justice recommended to the then Liberal government of Jean Chrétien that such ministerial discretion be authorized in the Income Tax Act. In response, some amendments to the Income Tax Act were released for consultation by John Manley, who at that time was the Liberal minister of finance.

These amendments created a ministerial discretion to deny assistance to a film or video production on the grounds that granting such assistance would be “contrary to public policy”, exactly the wording that is in today's Bill C-10.

At the conclusion of that consultation period, final amendments were published on November 14, 2003. They were published jointly by then Minister Manley and the then Liberal minister of Canadian heritage, Sheila Copps, including the following provision:

“Canadian film or video production certificate” means a certificate issued in respect of a production by the Minister of Canadian Heritage certifying that the production is a Canadian film or video production in respect of which that Minister is satisfied that

public financial support of the production would not be contrary to public policy.

That provision released by the previous Liberal government is exactly the same provision, verbatim and word for word, that is included in the current Bill C-10, which we are debating today.

I would also like to quote a Liberal government news release that was issued jointly in 2003 by both John Manley and Sheila Copps. It stated:

Today's proposal results from ongoing consultations with all sectors of the film industry, which were undertaken by the Departments of Finance and Canadian Heritage....

To those in the film and television community who now plead ignorance to the introduction of these amendments, let me read a portion of the Canadian Film and Television Production Association press release from November 2003, a release that was still posted on its website the last time I looked, for all the world to see. It stated:

After almost three years of complex negotiations, the Department of Finance and Department of Canadian Heritage unveiled draft amendments to the Canadian Film or Video Production Tax Credit, which affects Canadian content production....

“This is going to help a lot of producers, and it's exactly what the industry needs right now. Making Canadian shows and films is tough in the current international markets. While financing is never easy, this is what the doctor ordered”, says Guy Mayson, acting president and CEO, Canadian Film and Television Production Association.

Everybody bought in when a Liberal government was in place.

I encourage people to go to that website and check out that news release. Anyone who reads the press release will note the absence of any serious concern with the discretionary power afforded under Bill C-10. There is nothing about censorship, nothing about it potentially devastating the industry.

As I have stated, these very amendments are now included in Bill C-10. In fact, the bill before us was first introduced in the last session of Parliament as Bill C-33.

In that previous session the bill had completed third reading in the House of Commons with all party support: NDP, Bloc, Liberal and Conservative. Of course, that session came to an end and the bill died on the order paper.

When the second session started, the bill was introduced as Bill C-10 and again received unanimous support from all parties in the House. It passed at second reading, went to committee, came back for third reading, and now it is in the Senate.

During that long process, the bill has been thoroughly reviewed time and time again by the NDP, the Liberals and the Bloc, both in this House and at the House and Senate committees. No objections were raised by parliamentarians from any opposition party, Liberal, NDP or Bloc, or even by film or television industry representatives.

Let me be perfectly clear. From November 2006 until very recently no expressions of concern regarding the amendment were raised. There were no fears regarding censorship or devastation of the industry. This is an industry all parliamentarians are proud of and want to thrive, an industry that not only serves a vital cultural role in Canada but an important economic role as well.

That is the history of Bill C-10. I trust that I have been able to dispel once and for all the absurd notion that the bill is a secret plan to introduce censorship. It is just not true.

Quite frankly, I am offended by that suggestion coming from the opposition parties. This is their bill. They introduced it. They thoroughly reviewed it a number of times. They approved it not once, not twice, but at least three times. In fact, this Liberal proposal goes back 13 years.

Now that I have firmly established the Liberal origins of the bill, I would like to turn to the central question. Why is it that both previous and current federal governments support this legislation?

Let me first note that restrictions on funding eligibility for films are not uncommon in cultural policy. Throughout the years most federal funding programs that support cultural works have included guidelines stating that certain materials, such as hate propaganda, excessively violent material, or pornography, is not eligible for government assistance. Most taxpayers find that eminently sensible. Somehow today, the Liberals, the NDP and the Bloc, who used to support this legislation, do not find it eminently sensible.

In the same way, Bill C-10 addresses only the most extreme and objectionable of film and video productions. What Bill C-10 does not do is in any way ban or restrict cultural productions which are privately funded.

We simply want to ensure that public funds, in other words taxpayers' hard earned dollars, are not invested in productions which are highly objectionable and offensive in their content. In fact, Bill C-10 simply implements long established practices in this regard.

For example, I note that four Canadian provinces have exactly the same wording in their film tax regimes as does our bill and three additional provinces employ very similar concepts, yet the Liberals and the Bloc and the NDP have not been jumping up and down about those jurisdictions having implemented this kind of legislation.

Despite the histrionics from the opposition parties, the Canadian film and television industry can be assured that it has the strong support of our Conservative government, especially the support of our fine Minister of Canadian Heritage. Canadian producers will continue to have great flexibility in the kind of productions they want to produce.

In short, the bill has absolutely nothing to do with censorship and everything to do with ensuring that taxpayers receive good value for the productions that they and their tax dollars subsidize.

Opposition Motion—Income Tax ActBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Keith Martin Liberal Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Mr. Speaker, I want to deal with the issue of censorship. It is with reference to the Canadian Human Rights Act. Section 13.(1) of the Canadian Human Rights Act enables human rights commissions to basically prosecute someone, if someone says something that offends someone else.

Would the hon. member propose to his party that the human rights committee of the House of Commons, in open hearings, discusses the relevance of section 13.(1) and whether section 13.(1) of the Canadian Human Rights Act actually is being used to undermine freedom of speech in Canada?

I personally think it is. In fact, I think we need to take an overall look at the human rights commissions in Canada, but I hope--

Opposition Motion—Income Tax ActBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Jim Abbott Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I am sure, and as a matter of fact I know full well, that the member who was just speaking is very engaged with this particular issue. I recognize that and I probably find a lot of common ground. However, I suggest that questions and comments typically in a debate relate to the topic at hand.

Section 13.(1) of the Canadian Human Rights Act has little or nothing, as a matter of fact it has nothing, to do with this debate.

Mr. Speaker, I wonder if you might want to go to a different question that does have something to do with this debate.

Opposition Motion—Income Tax ActBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

I think the hon. parliamentary secretary makes a good point. The motion before the House is very specific with regard to Bill C-10 and proposed amendments.

I did not hear anything in the question that had to do with this subject, so I think we will move on to another question, unless the hon. member can tie it in somehow.

The hon. member for Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca very briefly, if he can tie it into the motion.

Opposition Motion—Income Tax ActBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Keith Martin Liberal Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

In view of our conversation, Mr. Speaker, on Bill C-10, I wonder if the hon. member would ask his party to look at whether or not the human rights committee would take a look at human rights commissions in Canada and specifically section 13.(1) of the act.

Opposition Motion—Income Tax ActBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

I do not know if the question accomplished that. If the hon. member for Abbotsford wants to very briefly respond, there are a few other members who wish to ask questions.

Opposition Motion—Income Tax ActBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

Mr. Speaker, I would be glad to answer that question.

Had the hon. member been listening, I reminded my colleagues in the House that four provinces actually have exactly the same wording that we are proposing in Bill C-10. Three others have similar wording and all hope to achieve the same goal.

If in fact the legislation would violate some human rights legislation in Canada, surely there would have been challenges in some of the other jurisdictions.

I also remind the member that this matter has been before the House. He had an opportunity to address this matter at committee, if he had chosen to do so. He did not raise the issue of human rights.

Opposition Motion—Income Tax ActBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Luc Malo Bloc Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC

Mr. Speaker, if people in the film industry are pointing to potential censorship by the Conservative government, it is undoubtedly because there are examples to prove that the members of the Conservative Party are tempted to act in that manner.

I am referring to the recent appearance of the Chairman of the Board of Telefilm Canada before the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage. The member for Palliser listed movies which, in his opinion, Telefilm Canada should not have funded. This concrete example speaks for itself.

I am also thinking of the guidelines. The government told us that they once existed but that they no longer exist and that they will be issued after the bill is passed by the Senate and receives royal assent.

Does the member not think that, in order to eliminate these concerns, it would be better to remove this contentious passage from Bill C-10?

Opposition Motion—Income Tax ActBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member and I both serve on the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage and I have appreciated his input.

However, it strikes me as passing strange that the member would get up in the House now and accuse this government of trying to impose censorship. When the legislation was before the House in the first session of this Parliament, his party voted in favour of it. It was before the House in the second session of Parliament and he also voted in favour of it.

Yet, suddenly now he has all of these interesting objections that he wants to raise. I think he is way off base. This is not about censorship at all. In fact, there are provincial jurisdictions across Canada that have similar legislation for their provincial film tax credits.

Opposition Motion—Income Tax ActBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

Order. It is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Mount Royal, Justice; the hon. member for Malpeque, Agriculture; the hon. member for Windsor West, Canada-U.S. Border.

Resuming debate, the hon. member for Ottawa--Vanier.

Opposition Motion—Income Tax ActBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the official opposition, I would first like to say that we share the concerns of thousands of Canadians who have clearly indicated, these past few days, their opposition, or at the very least, their concern over the actions of the Conservative government with respect to funding for Canada's television and film productions.

We agree that this requires closer examination to determine the true intentions of the government, what consultations it has already conducted and what it has failed to do. We need to know where things stand. If the situation needs to be rectified, we believe it should be.

But we do not think that the Bloc's motion, or at least their proposed method for tackling this issue, is the right way to go about it. That is why we will not support the motion.

We will not support this motion for several reasons. The first is obvious: the government will not respect it. The Bloc is asking the government to withdraw a section of Bill C-10, which is now before the Senate. Earlier, I asked the minister. Even if the Bloc motion were adopted, the government has no intention of withdrawing this section from the bill or proposing an amendment. So it is not worth it.

There are many examples of times when, although the House voted in favour of various legislative, financial or other types of measures, the government ignored them. I am thinking, for example, of the court challenges program. Many times, a majority expressed that it wanted the government to restore this program, but nothing happened.

The same thing happened with environmental issues. The House even took the legislative route, but we are still waiting for the government to follow up on the majority will of the House. The same goes for the Kelowna accord.

I could go on and on. This is why we have no doubt that even if the Bloc motion were adopted, the government has no intention of following through on it.

The second reason we do not support this motion is that Parliament must do its work. Parliament's role is to legislate and to supervise the government. It must do that work. Government representatives are rubbing our noses in the fact that the House endorsed this bill. On behalf of my party, I would like to say mea culpa, as others have done.

We have to acknowledge the reality of this situation. This is an extremely technical, 560 page-long bill. It was introduced during the first session of this Parliament, and it was referred to the Standing Committee on Finance, if I am not mistaken.

However, the government must act responsibly and honourably. The Crown demands a certain sense of honour of its representatives. When the committee studied Bill C-33, which is now Bill C-10, the government's representatives did not say a word about this measure. They tried to sneak it through quietly. That approach seems to have worked here in Parliament.

With all due respect to my NDP and Bloc colleagues, this is a bicameral parliament. Canada's Parliament is made up of two houses: this one and the Senate. Today, my Senate colleagues announced that the Standing Senate Committee on Banking, Trade and Commerce intends to study the matter.

Throughout the history of this institution, we have rarely seen a better example of the usefulness and necessity of a bicameral legislature, a parliament made up of two houses. Even though the government neglected to talk about some parts of the bill, given its very technical nature, the bill was sent to the Senate. Subsequently, the issue was raised publicly, and the Senate now intends to shed some light on it.

I believe that by April, the Senate will hold hearings and listen to those who want to be heard in order to find out what is going on. That is another reason we will not support the motion. We have to give Parliament a chance to do its work. As legislators, both houses of Parliament have a duty that they must carry out.

There is another reason: the proposed motion just puts the ball in the government's court. The minister said earlier that the federal and provincial governments are having some sort of discussion. We can presume that these discussions between officials and her staff have been precipitated in the past few days, for reasons I will get into in a few minutes. With all due respect to the minister, there has not been a lot of transparency here. No one knows when these meetings were held, who attended or what was discussed. We are left to assume certain things, when Parliament has a duty to carry out.

We have to look for the opportunity—and we have it right now, or will have it in the Senate—to clarify and truly understand the relationship that can exist between legislation, or Bill C-10, regulations and guidelines.

I have a question for the House and anyone watching us today. Earlier, reference was made to the Canadian Audio-Visual Certification Office guidelines. The hon. member for Kootenay—Columbia said that clause 5 states:

production for which public financial support would, in the opinion of the Minister of Canadian Heritage, be contrary to public policy

Note that was in February 2004.

Now, if I refer to the regulations, which have more authority under the political and legal conventions of our country and our Parliament, we do not find that in the regulations of 2005. They huff and puff that this is a Liberal initiative, but it must also be recognized that in 2005, under a Liberal government, the regulations excluded this item from the conditions making a film or television production ineligible.

What is this really about? This needs to be cleared up. The Senate, or the committee in question, will give a voice to all those who want to speak up. It could call witnesses. That brings us to the heart of the matter. I hope the Senate will call and listen to Mr. McVety.

This gentleman has made some affirmations that we believe must be questioned. He has affirmed having met with two ministers of the Crown, the Minister of Public Safety and the Minister of Justice, and that he is entirely satisfied that they have listened to his concerns about guidelines, future guidelines perhaps, who knows, and that he is happy.

Another comment was made on CBC Radio this week by the Parliamentary Secretary to the President of the Treasury Board who said that the government has already decided what it wants to do and that it wants to take guidelines from somewhere else and impose them on cinematography and television productions.

When we hear the minister saying that nothing has been done, that he is waiting for the bill and then he will consult, we must be allowed to have some doubts as to what has happened and, thus, the necessity to have these hearings so it will be clear and everyone can deal with this very delicate matter, which is akin to censorship as I have said, in full knowledge of the status of the current legislation, regulations and guidelines and whether they mesh or not. I think that is an absolutely legitimate role of Parliament. I wish that it was being done in the House instead of the Senate but that is not the case. It will be done in the Senate and we support that. I think that is the way to go.

We need to have clarity in this. I have received hundreds of messages and calls, and I know it is the same for many of my colleagues, from people wanting to know what gives. Whenever we deal with censorship, the matter of freedom of speech or the matter of artistic liberty, people have deep feelings about that, as they should. We live in a society where we do encourage respect. We have a Charter of Rights and Freedoms that establishes freedom of speech, freedom of assembly and freedom of expression. Artistic expression is certainly among those.

We need to understand what the government has in mind, what it did have in mind and what its intentions are. The best way of doing that is to use the ability and tools at the disposal of parliamentarians, whether they be in this House or the next house, to do that. The Liberal members of the Senate have publicly committed to doing that as early as possible, one would suspect as early as the month of April because the scheduling will be taken up in the next few days.

There is another reason why we cannot support the Bloc Québécois motion. This is because the amendment put forward by the Bloc might not be the right one. It might be, but it might not be. Other sections of Bill C-10 would have to be checked. Perhaps the best way to address this problem, once all the information and all the details are on the table, would be to ask that the Minister of Canadian Heritage be given the authority to establish regulations rather than guidelines.

This is important, because regulations are subject to review by Parliament, while guidelines are not. The Bloc Québécois is focusing on one section in particular. But I would like to highlight another section of Bill C-10. As I was saying, it is a 560-page bill that is extremely technical and I will try to quote part of it, in the hope that it will mean something to someone.

Another section says:

The Minister of Canadian Heritage shall issue guidelines respecting the circumstances under which the conditions in paragraphs (a) and (b) of the definition of “Canadian film or video production certificate” in subsection (1) are satisfied. For greater certainty, these guidelines are not statutory instruments as defined in the Statutory Instruments Act.

In English, it says that for greater certainty these guidelines are not statutory instruments as defined in the Statutory Instruments Act. The reason I raise this is that guidelines escape the scrutiny of Parliament. Once the Senate has heard the witnesses, convened officials and had a full airing of this matter, perhaps other sections may or may not need to be amended. Certainly, if there are to be guidelines at some point and anywhere, perhaps these guidelines should be a statutory instrument and therefore subject to parliamentary scrutiny. That would not be the case. There are a number of possible amendments that the Senate could make.

In the same spirit, if we were to rely on the Bloc's motion, we would be asking the government to present amendments. We have clear indications from the minister that the government has no intention whatsoever of providing such an amendment.

Therefore, if we rely on our own, as parliamentarians, be it this House or the next, ability and authority to review legislation and propose amendments, should that be the case, the amendments would come back to this House and we would have a chance to look at them, as I hope we do. That is another reason that I believe the Bloc's proposal is not the best way to go and we will not be supporting it.

I will quickly summarize the situation. We have a bill that has gone to the Senate. Tens of thousands of Canadians and nearly the entire artistic community are extremely concerned about certain statements made by some people to the effect that the government intends to change the guidelines concerning the payment of tax credits. This has created huge uncertainty within the industry.

Apart from the matter of possible censorship and the limiting of artistic freedom, another concern is the financial structure of productions for television or films. If we spend all the money and at the end we are told we cannot, then we cause incredible grief.

That is another consideration that must be addressed. I think the Senate, as my colleagues in the Senate have promised this afternoon, will provide an opportunity for those who wish to be heard, those who wish to express their concerns and those who wish to understand all of the complexities between text of law or a law, regulations and guidelines and how they interrelate. We have a duty as parliamentarians to ensure that is all on the table in a very transparent way.

The way the Bloc is proposing to do this would not provide that at all. It would not provide an opportunity for parliamentarians to do what should have been done in the first place. However, because we are a bicameral Parliament, we have an opportunity in the other House, in the red chamber, to do that.

Therefore, we will not support the Bloc motion, although we share the concerns expressed by tens of thousands of Canadians as to what the intentions of the government are. It is incumbent upon us to use whatever methods we have as legislators to shed the light on that. I am very happy and very proud that my colleagues in the Senate have undertaken to do just that and we will see where that leads us.

Opposition Motion—Income Tax ActBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Kootenay—Columbia B.C.

Conservative

Jim Abbott ConservativeParliamentary Secretary for Canadian Heritage

Mr. Speaker, I thank my friend for his assurance that the Liberals will not be voting for this motion. It means that we can get on with business.

I would also like to assure him that the document to which I referred was printed off on March 4, 2008. It is on the bottom of my page. Indeed, the document does contain “production for which financial support would, in the opinion of the Minister of Canadian Heritage, be contrary to public policy”. I do not know which website he went to, but this is a current document, currently contained on the Canadian Audio-Visual Certification Office website.

Second, at the risk of rubbing it in, the point still is that in 2003, Minister Copps and Minister Manley came forward with amendments to the Income Tax Act relating to films and video productions, which is the title, and included in that, and I apologize because the wording is a little weird, but it says the same thing, that public financial support of the production would not be contrary to public policy as it related to the fact that this would be a change in the income tax provisions.

I wonder if my friend would agree with me that perhaps some of the hysteria that has been created, certainly not by him but perhaps by some other members in the House and certainly by the news media, has been created around a lack of information and a lack of knowledge.

The bill is simply the normalization of the rules that apply to CAVCO and would be the same rules as apply to the Income Tax Act. I would think he would agree that there has not been any censorship, certainly of the type that is envisioned by the people under CAVCO.