House of Commons Hansard #11 of the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was women.

Topics

Budget Implementation Act, 2009Government Orders

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

Madam Speaker, to my knowledge the NDP did not put forward any amendments to the bill either, so let us get some reality here.

The other thing we have to be cognizant of is that when we had a minority government, the NDP chose to knock that government down, knowing full well what the Prime Minister would have done and what the Conservatives were going to do. They have been very clear about it. Those NDP members knew full well what they were bringing in, but chose nonetheless to kill a Liberal minority government to work with the Conservatives. That is why we now have a bit of a problem and a mess on our hands with this situation.

The issues related to pay equity are serious to me and always have been. I would like to see the government change its position, but I do not have any great hope that it will.

We are going through an economic crisis. We Liberals have a responsibility in this House, unlike the NDP, which wants to have an election every other day. I do not think Canadians want an election right now. Therefore, we will work with the government as much as we can in the short term. In the long term, women in this country will get their rights back, but it will only be with a Liberal government, not with the NDP or the Conservatives.

Budget Implementation Act, 2009Government Orders

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Through you, madam Speaker, I would like to put a question to the member who just spoke about the budget. My question concerns an issue close to my heart and to the hearts of those who live in the regions.

The Bloc Québécois has submitted a rather detailed plan to the government. I would like to hear the hon. member on this. In the last Parliament, she probably showed support for a tax credit for those young people returning to work in so-called remote regions. I say so-called because who is remote from whom really? In that sense, I guess she would have liked this bill to be reinstated. What is really her take on this?

Budget Implementation Act, 2009Government Orders

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

Madam Speaker, most of us would support any assistance that we can give to young people in different regions of this country to access education, employment and training.

Right now, given our economic situation, a larger percentage of young people are unemployed compared to the rest of the population. This generally happens when there is a downturn in the economy. The last time we had a recession was when I was first elected. While there was an unemployment rate of 11.5% in the country, 27% of youth were unemployed.

We all need to work together to ensure that young people in this country are looked after properly, because they are the future of this country. They are the future leaders of our country and they need a chance to get their lives on track.

Budget Implementation Act, 2009Government Orders

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Judy Wasylycia-Leis NDP Winnipeg North, MB

Madam Speaker, I do not believe my colleagues in the Liberal Party really understand what is at stake here. If it was not apparent before either in the doomed economic statement of November 27 or the recent budget, then it should be clear now based on what is in this legislation, Bill C-10, the budget implementation act.

If there is any way for me to make a miracle happen on behalf of the women of this country, it would be to convince the Liberals not to sit back and support the budget implementation act which sets back the clock some 30 years in terms of women's equality. I wish I could find those words because they do not realize that what is at stake here is everything that the member for Beaches—East York fought for all these years, that I fought for, that my colleague from Nanaimo—Cowichan fought for, that the member for Trinity—Spadina fought for and, of course, that my male colleagues fought for as well.

We entered political life to make a difference. One way to make that difference was to ensure that some measure of pay equity was being enforced right across this country. I cannot believe that the Liberals are going to sit here today and let this go down the tubes. I cannot believe that they are going to let the women of this country down simply because they got boxed in by some stupid response to this Conservative budget, which does not deserve to be supported for one second of the day. I cannot believe it.

I may be emotional today, but I have been involved in the women's movement for some 30 to 40 years. When we started working in the women's movement it was not just to be patsies for the men or for a right-wing macho party like the Conservative Party. It was to stand up for women, to stand up and be counted and make sure that the laws of the land respected and reflected the great diversity of this land and the values of this country. At the heart of that is equality and justice. At the heart of equality and justice is pay equity, and what pay equity means is equal pay for work of equal value.

If the Liberals do not understand what they are doing right now, then they only need to talk to the Conservatives who at their last convention in November, in the city of Winnipeg, rolled back the clock in terms of their own party resolutions and eliminated the concept of equal pay for work of equal value. They changed the definition of pay equity back to what it was 30 or 40 years ago, which is equal pay for equal work. That resolution was sponsored by the Conservatives' own caucus. It was not an individual member who did not know what he or she was doing. It was sponsored by their caucus and introduced by the member for Kildonan—St. Paul.

How can anyone sit and ignore what is really being done to us here today? Look at the legislation. Look at what the Conservatives are doing to the concept of equal pay for work of equal value. Look at the sections under the supposed public sector equitable compensation act. The title gives the first clue. Does it say “public sector pay equity act”? No. There is a weasel word in this bill. It is a weasel word that allows the Conservatives to do what they passed at their last convention, which is to eliminate the notion of pay equity forever from this country and from women's struggle for equality. It is absolutely reprehensible and no one in the House should allow them to get away with it.

I can go back to 1985 in my province of Manitoba, when the notion of pay equity was just being developed. The women's movement was trying to convince politicians and governments about the importance of dealing with pink ghettos and women earning half of what men were making, because at that time we did not have anything that resembled equal pay for work of equal value.

That is a concept that looks at what is involved in a job and what a person brings to a job. It is not just about the straight job description, comparing a female car mechanic to a male car mechanic. It is about comparing jobs that are not necessarily identical but there is an equal value to the job, a certain level of skill, education, expertise, knowledge that justifies that job being paid on an equal basis to an equivalent job in the male sector, or in a male dominated workplace.

In 1985, the NDP government in Manitoba listened to the voices of women. In Manitoba we brought in the first legislation in this country on equal pay for work of equal value, called, The Pay Equity Act. It was not called the “equitable pay act”, to sort of pay women on an equal basis to men. It was very specific. The Pay Equity Act states:

WHEREAS many women in the Manitoba labour force work in traditionally female occupational groups, where their work is undervalued and underpaid;

AND WHEREAS Canada's international obligations commit this country to implementing the principle of equal pay for work of equal value;

AND WHEREAS section 15 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees individuals equality before and under the law and the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination;

THEREFORE HER MAJESTY, by and with the advice and consent of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, enacts as follows:

1 In this Act..."pay equity" means a compensation practice which is based primarily on the relative value of the work performed, irrespective of the gender of employees, and includes the requirement that no employer shall establish or maintain a difference between the wages paid to male and female employees, employed by that employer, who are performing work of equal or comparable value--

That was the breakthrough over 30 years ago.

What do we have today? We have a government that wants to eliminate this concept from the federal statutes. It wants to take away the very notion, change the definition and eliminate any right for women to inherit what is rightfully theirs.

Today and every day that we have raised this issue, the President of the Treasury Board, the minister responsible for Manitoba, has perpetrated a hoax on the House. He has totally misled this chamber. He has not told the truth about what exists in Manitoba. He has tried to leave the impression that what the Conservatives are doing is equivalent to this historic pioneering move by Manitoba back in 1985.

Let me set the record straight. There is no comparison between what the government is proposing and what is on the statutes in Manitoba. Instead in this federal system, under the Conservative government's proposals, there is no legislation that entrenches the notion of equal pay for work of equal value and there is no mechanism for appeals. The Conservatives are taking away the right to go to the Human Rights Commission. As my colleague from Beaches—East York pointed out, it also will fine people who actually advocate on behalf of employees who want their rights upheld. The Conservatives want to fine people maybe $50,000 if someone in the union decides that the complaint is worth pursuing and the woman was done an injustice and therefore needs some representation. Not only do the Conservatives take it away, but they penalize people for advocating on behalf of women.

What we need in this country at the federal level is a government that does not turn back the clock on women, that does not negate a value or a struggle that was won legitimately with integrity and with all the education and research to justify and to explain that breakthrough.

We in the House cannot let the government take away something that has been so important to our struggle, no matter what party we belong to today. All of us, Liberals, Bloc and New Democrats, one way or another have fought for equal pay for work of equal value. I do not know about the Conservatives. Maybe there are one or two or a few among them who know what this means, what it is all about and what they are doing today, but if not, I suggest they go back and do a little research, a little reading, because what is at stake here, what they are about to do is to eliminate something that is fundamental to any notion of equality.

Manitoba's legislation is not based on the notion of equitable compensation as this bill is, but Manitoba's legislation is grounded on the principle and founded on the principle of equal pay for work of equal value. That is the system that was started in 1985, and as a result of the pervasive nature of the fact that it operates in all sectors of our society, it has gone from strictly the provincial civil service to all sectors. When it does not touch a certain sector and there is a gap, a person can still go to the Manitoba Human Rights Commission and lodge a complaint.

What the minister said is rubbish. It is absolutely not true when he suggested any comparison between Manitoba with its enlightened policies about women and the Conservative government's outdated, retrograde, chauvinistic, macho approach to decisions that have to be made on the basis of women and women's equality.

I saw it in the House today. Those members stand up and hoot and holler when someone brings forward legislation to get rid of the gun registry. Do they stand up to their Prime Minister and make all kinds of noise on something as negative, as regressive, as outdated, as unjust as their party's decision on equal pay for work of equal value?

All I can say is that we are talking about something that is fundamental to everything we have done and worked for over the years. We cannot let it slip away. The Liberals have an obligation to look at this and understand what they are doing by agreeing to pass Bill C-10, a bill that eliminates--

Budget Implementation Act, 2009Government Orders

4 p.m.

Conservative

Leon Benoit Conservative Vegreville—Wainwright, AB

Madam Speaker, on a point of order, the member has been here long enough to know that it is improper to use something as a prop. The member is using a document. I grant that it is a very good document she is using as a prop and it is well worth showing, but it is against the rules and I think she should stop using it as a prop.

Budget Implementation Act, 2009Government Orders

4 p.m.

NDP

The Acting Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

The member is using the actual legislation, so it would appear to be in order.

Budget Implementation Act, 2009Government Orders

4 p.m.

NDP

Judy Wasylycia-Leis NDP Winnipeg North, MB

I guess, Madam Speaker, you could consider this a prop considering the fact that it should be put in the garbage. This is the government's bill and if the members do not want me to use it, maybe that is what they think of it. This is the bill that we are debating today. I would suggest to the member that he read it and realize just what his government is doing on the notion of equality.

Maybe I should read from it. Let us begin with page 362, the clause that begins with the establishment of this supposed new legislation that the President of the Treasury Board likes to refer to as being on an equal basis with what exists in Manitoba, the Public Sector Equitable Compensation Act.

I would like to know from the government what “equitable” means, how this is defined in law and what bearing it has in terms of equal pay for work of equal value. I would like to know, on the basis of this huge bill of over 500 pages, why we have a section that fines people who work on behalf of employees who feel that their rights are not being met or adhered to. I would like to know why in clause 399 of this bill it says specifically that the Human Rights “Commission does not have jurisdiction to deal with complaints made against an employer within the meaning of the Public Sector Equitable Compensation Act”. I would like to know where one can find justice if one still believes in the notion of equal pay for work of equal value. There is no legislation that upholds the concept and now there is no way to advance a complaint with the Human Rights Commission that is founded on the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

What is left? What are women? Are we chopped liver? Do we have no rights anymore? Where does this take us? What does the government really want to do? How does it feel about women and equality?

I do not know if I can get through to the government members on this because they obviously have an agenda that was made clear at their convention in November. They do not like the notion of equal pay for work of equal value. They are in an era way before the women's movement and women's equality. They want to set women back and negate the gains for which we fought for so many years.

However, I want to appeal to the Liberals because they were part of this struggle. Sure, there were some problems along the way. They did not advance the changes in legislation and the broadening of the mechanisms for the Human Rights Commission to pursue injustices in terms of equal pay. Sure, we did not get far enough in terms finding a way to have the government initiate, on a proactive basis, complaints about the lack of equal pay for work equal value. Sure, it was a complaints based system and lots of problems with it, but at least we had the concept, at least the Liberals understood and at least there was some common ground but now we are about to lose all of that.

There are so many other reasons why the Liberals should oppose the bill, why they should not be making deals with the Conservatives and why the Conservative-Liberal axis is just wrong, One need only to look at pay equity or child care and the fact that the bill makes absolutely no attempt to address the very serious situation facing parents either looking for child care or women or men working in the child care field.

I want to refer to Pat Wege from Manitoba who has been working on this for about 30 or 40 years. She said:

Shame on the Government of Canada for leaving child care out of the federal budget yet again. The majority of parents need child-care services, whether they are employed, searching for a job, or need to enter retraining.

She goes on to say:

While the [Conservative] government continues to ignore the child care file, U.S. President Barack Obama is wasting no time. His economic recovery plan includes billions in additional support for the development of more early learning and child-care services.

Whether we are looking at pay equity, child care or employment insurance, especially when it comes to women who work in part time jobs or in precarious employment situations, not to have access to employment insurance when they lose their jobs through no fault of their own, is absolutely reprehensible and wrong.

I thought the Conservatives were joining us when we tried to raise in the House, when the Liberals were in government, the whole issue of Kelly Lesiuk, the famous Manitoban who fought the system because she was short a few hours and could not afford to leave her job to have another child because the EI rules were just so regressive in terms of women, especially young women who wanted to have children.

I could talk about the RCMP cuts and the fact that the Conservative government talks about law and order and about getting rid of the gun registry. Goodness knows why the Conservative members will not stand up for RCMP officers who need to be supported and respected. They work in dangerous situations, often in isolated communities and often on their own, and yet the government wants to roll back their salaries. Go figure. How does that make sense in this day and age?

I could talk about infrastructure and the fact that many communities in Manitoba will not be able to take advantage of the infrastructure dollars simply because the Conservative government is trying to suggest that if a municipality has already budgeted for a recreational facility or the construction of a building then it will not eligible for any support. Does that make sense when a municipality is trying to pull together the resources in the first place to meet its infrastructure needs, and along comes the government and says that it is not eligible?

Why did the government not bring in the gas tax formula that we and others recommended to deal with infrastructure dollars?

Where is the support for people who are being bilked out of millions of dollars because this climate is producing all kinds of Ponzi schemes and fraud artists? Where is the support for the many Manitobans who were ripped off billions by fraud artists?

With so many areas that need to be addressed, so much left to be done, so little in terms of a stimulus kickstart package from the government and so much wrong being perpetrated on Canadians, especially women, one wonders how anyone can support the budget.

Budget Implementation Act, 2009Government Orders

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Maurice Vellacott Conservative Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK

Madam Speaker, my hon. colleague made some comments slagging the Conservative Party in respect to a sensible proposal put forward by the member for Yorkton—Melville with respect to scrapping the wasteful gun registry. It has been proven wasteful time and again in polls.

When she slagged the member about scrapping the gun registry was she stating categorically that none of her members would support that bill? I would dare say that some sensible members in the New Democratic Party, hopefully in the Liberal Party as well, and a vast number in the Conservative Party, will support that bill. Is she saying that members of her own party are not supportive of scrapping the gun registry?

First nations in her riding are negatively and adversely affected by the gun registry. Is she saying that she will not stand up with them and scrap the gun registry?

I would like to hear if that was a categorical statement or just her own personal views. Does she represent all NDP members in respect of that?

Budget Implementation Act, 2009Government Orders

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Judy Wasylycia-Leis NDP Winnipeg North, MB

What I said, Madam Speaker, was that as far as I can tell, the vast majority of members, based on their silence and inactivity on the budget, are not supportive of the notion of women's equality. Whether we are looking at what is in the budget on pay equity or what is not in the budget on pay equity, the Conservatives want to roll back the clock.

Members of that party fail to appreciate the fact that huge numbers of women continue to die at the hands of those who use guns, who choose to single out women and who kill women. We happen to be on the eve of the 20th anniversary of the massacre at Polytechnique de Montréal where 14 women were massacred by a man who used a gun.

Whether we are looking at the gun registry, pay equity, child care or employment insurance, we find that the Conservative Party is in absolute denial. This Parliament could take major steps toward women's equality, to ensure that women are able to give to our society their best knowing that their government will protect them from those who choose to single them out using guns to kill them, or protect them from employers who choose to treat them as a cheap source of labour. That is the point.

Budget Implementation Act, 2009Government Orders

4:10 p.m.

Bloc

André Bellavance Bloc Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Madam Speaker, part 4 of the budget implementation bill concerns employment insurance. I would like to hear what my colleague has to say on the Conservatives' decision to make a tiny change to employment insurance in the maximum number of weeks a person may receive benefits, that is, to increase that number from 45 weeks to 50 weeks. Of itself, it is not bad news, but it is all the Conservatives agreed to do, while the Bloc is calling for a reduction of the minimum qualifying period to 360 hours regardless of the regional unemployment rate, an increase in the weekly rate of benefits from 55% to 60%, abolition of the waiting period, and so on.

I know that when there was agreement to form a coalition, the NDP and the Liberals supported many of these measures. But nothing happened. In her speech, the hon. member said she had worked a very long time, many years, to improve the situation of women. Women, especially single mothers, are affected by these measures. In this economic crisis, women will be the ones hit hard because of the Conservative government's inaction and, of course, the Liberals' decision to support this budget.

Budget Implementation Act, 2009Government Orders

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Judy Wasylycia-Leis NDP Winnipeg North, MB

Madam Speaker, I must thank my colleague from the Bloc for his question on employment insurance. He is right.

The government has done the opposite of what is required when it comes to an economic recession with staggering numbers of unemployed. One just needs to look at what we were up to in the month of January. We all know about the 129,000 additional Canadians out of work, leading to, in the last few months, a quarter of a million Canadians unemployed and a good percentage of them women who often are not eligible for employment insurance by the very nature of the system. Simply tacking on a few more weeks for which one can claim benefits does not address the fact that about 50% of Canadians who are unemployed are not able to get access to employment insurance. In fact, women continue to be disproportionately hit in this circumstance.

When we have worked on this issue over the years in this House, I can remember talking about this and from the years 1996 on we learned that the gap between men and women receiving benefits had almost doubled. Women over 45, who were almost at par with men in 1996, are now 13% behind. In Manitoba, that gap had grown from 9% to 20%, while in Quebec it exploded from 3% to 14%.

The nature of the work has changed and the way in which people need to secure employment has changed but the government refuses to address that fundamental issue. The budget implementation bill contains nothing that addresses that serious situation. As Lucie Lamarche has said so many times, we are talking about a true case of misappropriation and that is something the government needs to change.

Budget Implementation Act, 2009Government Orders

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Madam Speaker, as I listened to the member opposite from Manitoba talk about the evolution of pay equity, it took me back 35 years in an instant when I became involved with my local union. I became the president of the local union for Bell Canada workers and members will know the struggle the union had to get pay equity for the operator services group at Bell Canada.

I must say that as I sit here today and I look around this place, I see many people who have taken part in the struggle on pay equity for years.

When the member for Toronto Centre became the premier of the province of Ontario, his first speech was at our union. Part of the reception for an NDP government in Ontario from our union came from a sense that this would be a group of people who would fight for us and fight for the women in our organization, and they did. I cannot understand for the life of me why people with credentials of that nature would support this budget after a lifetime of fighting this.

I am not meaning to centre the individual out any more than anybody else in particular in the Liberal Party, but how in the world do we have this kind of a recommendation as part of a budget that is supposed to stimulate our economy and help Canadians? This will set women back 35 or 40 years.

Budget Implementation Act, 2009Government Orders

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Judy Wasylycia-Leis NDP Winnipeg North, MB

Madam Speaker, if I knew the answer to that question, we would have convinced the Liberals by now to decide to oppose the bill if no other reason than it eliminates the concept of equal pay for work of equal value and sets back the struggle of women to achieve equality some 30 years.

If the Liberals are thinking about this, they should go and talk to some of the women they have worked with over the last 10, 20, 30 years, women who believed in them and believed in us, women who want us to make a difference and who know how devastating it would be to let the government proceed with its right-wing ideology, with its anti-women's equality agenda, with its old-time, out of date mentality when it comes to women in civil society.

If there were only some way we could convince the Liberals to reconsider and help us fight this, otherwise it is too late. The damage is done and we will have done such a disservice to women. Most of us will feel that the years we have been in political life, in public life, has been wasted and that we have let women down. We cannot let that happen.

Budget Implementation Act, 2009Government Orders

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Madam Speaker, I am glad to participate in the debate and appreciate the opportunity to speak.

This is not the first time I have stood on my feet and spoken in the House, but it is the first time since my election last year that I have had the opportunity to, perhaps in a little slightly more reflective way, thank my constituents for sending me here twice, in a byelection and now in a general election, and to say how proud I am to represent the constituency of Toronto Centre. It is a riding in which my father grew up. He went to Jarvis Collegiate, and then to the University of Toronto. Had it not been for a $250 scholarship that he received upon entry in 1932, he would not have been able to attend university.

I know many members opposite have called me many things, to which I take no particular objection. However, I am very proud of my constituency and of my association with the riding of Toronto Centre and I am very proud to represent it here today. It is a riding of enormous diversity. I know there are a great many people in the country who like to take some exception to Toronto and might have a certain, perhaps, picture or stereotype in their minds about it.

However, if I can describe it to members, my riding goes from the lake to north of Rosedale. It goes from the Don Valley Parkway, over to Yonge Street and makes a couple of other small jogs. I know many members of Parliament represent ridings that are 100, 200 and 500 square kilometres and mine is much smaller. However, it is an intensely diverse riding, where immigrants come. It is their first point of entry, their first point of staying. St. James Town has perhaps the most densely populated part of the country. Literally tens of thousands of people live within a square block. It was well known when the riding was known as Toronto—Rosedale. It includes some of the wealthiest parts of the country, in terms of its constituents. It also includes Regent Park which, as many members will know, is one of the oldest public housing developments in the country and includes some of the least well-off people in the country. We have a large aboriginal population. We have a large gay population. We represent the diversity of Canada and the diversity of the world. It is a constituency which I am very proud to represent.

As has already been referred to by some of the members who spoke earlier, this is not my first time in the House of Commons. I was first elected here in 1978, which is over 30 years ago. This is my 30-60 year in which I turn 60 and in which I celebrate my 30th anniversary of my election to the House of Commons. Next to my colleague, my seatmate, the member for Wascana, who was elected in 1974, I think I can speak with some confidence of some of the history that we have had here with respect to the country.

I want to speak about our budgets. I want to speak about Canada's recessions. I want to speak perhaps in a way that will disappoint some people because it will not be an intensely partisan speech. I want to try to reflect a bit on some of the challenges we face as a country and on the moment which we are dealing with this intense economic crisis and perhaps compare and contrast it with some of the challenges which we faced in the past. I am speaking from personal experience.

I was the finance critic of the New Democratic Party for three years and saw budgets come and go, the budget of the Conservatives and the budget of the Liberals at the time. It was a time when we were entering into a serious recession, in the late 1970s and 1980s.

I remind members, and in the case of many of the younger members I will tell them, that when Mr. Crosbie brought in his budget in 1979, that budget had a provision for a deficit of just over $7 billion. It was a budget that also called for an increase in the taxation on gasoline of some 18¢ a litre, and there are some colleagues who will remember the arguments about that and how that went forward.

That budget was defeated. It was then followed by an election, in which Liberals were elected, and then the recession took hold full bore and full steam. It was a very difficult recession. It was a recession that saw unemployment in some parts of the country go to over 20% and, in the case of the national average, we went well up over 11% and 12%.

It was a budget that was accompanied by a long national debate on the national energy program, which proved to be extremely divisive and difficult for the entire country, in which we saw oil prices literally collapse, which seemed to be, from the point of view of the consumer, a good thing and from the point of view of the producing provinces, a very difficult thing. We saw a recession, which in its general impact, was shared very much across the country.

By the time the Trudeau government was defeated by Mr. Mulroney, the last Liberal budget, which was brought in by the Hon. Marc Lalonde, contained a deficit of well over $40 billion. It was a time when people were really unsure as to whether these techniques of priming the pump would actually work, whether it would have the desired effect.

Under the Mulroney government, that deficit went down. There was a very quick transition out of the recession that took place in the province of Ontario, starting at around 1983 and 1984, something of which I am familiar because by that time I had shifted from the federal scene to the provincial scene. We saw a very steady increase in employment and in the health of the economy from 1984 to 1989 to the point where the Peterson government was able to introduce the first surplus, balanced budget in Ontario's history for over 25 years. There had been 25 years of deficits in Ontario and it had been steady deficits in Canada from the early 1970s until 1998.

Some of my colleagues may have read in the National Post that I have had opportunities to make a little fun of how I have somehow given up my title of being the deficit punching bag to my colleagues across the way. All I intended by that article, which I am glad to say struck a certain note with some people, is simply this. I know we went through a period when, as a country, we made a collective decision that deficits added upon deficits added upon deficits, regardless of whether the country was in recession, whether we were in growth or whether we were in a remarkable healthy state, was dangerous territory for the economy of Canada.

This is often not accepted as the fact, but the simple fact is all the premiers agreed in the early 1990s, regardless of political party. I can remember very vividly the conversation in which it took place. It was the night before our premiers' conference in 1992. Premiers were there from the New Democratic Party, the Liberal Party and the Conservative Party. In an informal discussion before our normal first ministers meeting, we went over the ground on what we were facing in our economies. We had a very candid discussion about how challenging it was, how difficult it was, how hard the fiscal and financial situation that we faced in the early 1990s was, the impact it was having on all of our budgets and how we had a responsibility to deal with it, because in the long term, Canada would only be better off if we could manage our public finances in a better and healthier way.

We all made the moves that we had to make to get there, and they were painful moves. They were not easy. They were difficult. When Mr. Martin became the minister of finance in 1993, the first budget was not a tough one. The second budget was a tough one.

The 1995 budget, which really started the country on the way to a steady reduction in the deficit and to an improvement in our overall financial situation, was not simply the product of the political will of the Chrétien-Martin government. It was a product of prosperity and growth taking place.

I know that we all like to take credit for surpluses and we all like to allocate blame for deficits, but the simple fact of the matter is that it is the overall state of the economy that by and large determines where our fiscal and financial policy is headed. That is why I have taken no joy in saying to the government that I believe it has seriously underestimated, for a long period of time, the difficulties and the challenges which it is going to face and which any government is going to face in the face of the economic change we are going through.

One of the things that I learned in 1990, when I became premier, was that the estimates one gets from finance officials when things start going wrong usually underestimate just how wrong they are going. People usually overestimate the revenue numbers and usually underestimate the costs associated with a recession.

There is no magic here. As I look around the room I would say that what is happening is so clear that it is tragic to say we should have learned these lessons long ago. The revenue situation facing the Government of Canada and the provinces is going to get worse and the cost side is also going to get worse.

When I looked at the numbers the Minister of Finance presented in his economic statement in the fall, I found them absolutely unbelievable. Literally unbelievable. I could not believe that a Minister of Finance would produce that kind of a statement just as the world was heading into this maelstrom, this hurricane.

I am not claiming to be any kind of financial guru. If I were, I would be somewhat substantially better off than I am today.

I would say to hon. members that the recession which we are going through today is of a different character than the ones we went through in the 1980s and the 1990s. They were very difficult. Certainly, the one that was focused on Ontario in the early 1990s was very tough. Our unemployment rate went up from 5% to over 11%. We lost over 300,000 jobs in a 15-month period.

I hear the numbers coming out today, and I know exactly how bewildering these numbers can be sometimes. Statistics Canada gets it wrong, everybody gets it wrong. There is no obfuscation in this. There is no conspiracy anywhere. It is just recognizing that as human beings we do not have all the answers and we do not know exactly what is going on. What we do know is what we are facing today is even more serious than what was faced before.

I have often heard it said that a government cannot spend its way out of a recession. Actually, it really depends. It cannot do it on its own. I certainly discovered that as premier of Ontario. When facing high interest rates and cuts in federal transfers, to try to reflate from the base of one province does not work. It causes problems and challenges which we faced in Ontario.

On the other hand, what we are facing today and what we are seeing today is an unparalleled argument, not just from one government but from a whole series of governments, that something dramatic has to happen because of the credit crisis in which certain bad loans were allowed to be syndicated. Having been syndicated, they became a kind of virus which has infected the entire financial system. That is unparalleled.

There is no comparison to what we faced before. Interest rates are low, one can argue and debate this ad infinitum. The tax structure is imperfect and could readily be improved. There are serious problems with it. It is not acting contrary to the possibilities for growth and investment by and large in Canada anymore than it is in any other country.

Still we are facing the signs of a recession that is not coming quickly to a conclusion. I think it is fair enough to say that most financial experts, most economists, and indeed the head of the IMF believes very clearly that the worst is not yet over. There are still very difficult times to come.

I know the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance accused members of the opposition of taking pleasure in the terrible numbers. I want to assure him that is not the case. No rational person would, certainly not one representing a constituency like mine, and we all represent different constituencies where this is the case.

We all represent ridings where we can see the difficulties people are going through. We receive people in our constituency office. We can see the scope by the number of people in difficulty who consult us, because they are in very difficult circumstances.

Honestly, the government made a pretty remarkable about face. Is the budget perfect? No, I would not say so. Would my leader or a finance minister from the Liberal Party have presented such a budget? Absolutely not. Still, does this budget provide the basis for a discussion that allows us to send it to committee? Yes, in my opinion.

I do not think it is perfect. The document poses major problems for me. However, one would have to be totally ideological to say there had been no change of opinion or policy between the economic statement in November by the finance minister, a number of months ago, already, and the budget.

Now I am not an ideological person. I try not to be. I try to be practical. I do not like the Conservative government. I do not like Conservative ideology. I have never made any pretense that I have. Most of them do not like me, which is the way it is.

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Conservative

Mike Wallace Conservative Burlington, ON

That's not true.

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Conservative

Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON

We wanted you to be the leader.

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Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

No, no. It is too late. It is all down in print.

It is very difficult for me to say that there has been no change from the statement made by the Minister of Finance in November and the budget that has been presented. Is it perfect? No, it is not perfect. It is not a perfect document but it is a basis for discussion, which is really what we are doing. We are sending this to committee. The committee will have an opportunity to discuss it.

In the few minutes that are left to me I want to raise the issues that I want to discuss. I am very concerned by the cuts in science, research and higher education. I wrote a report for Premier McGuinty on the importance of that sector and I am disturbed that the Government of Canada has not moved in the right direction.

I believe there is a fundamental question about employment insurance. It is a tax. People pay the tax. The minister said today that the 20% of people who pay the tax will not qualify for employment insurance under any scenario. I want to find out more about who those people are and why she thinks that is equitable and fair.

I want to deal with the question of pay equity because I want to listen very carefully to what my friends in the New Democratic Party are saying. I want them to have a look again at the legislation to see whether there is not a way of resolving what I do not believe is a vast ideological chasm between the legislation and what we all think needs to happen.

I am concerned about what has happened to some provinces and in particular about the treatment of provinces that feel the changes that have been made in transfers have been made in a way that is not fair. I am very concerned about the question of the affordability of infrastructure. The government needs to have a practical look at the actual debt level of many of the cities, municipalities and provinces across the country to understand what impact it is going to have on the take-up rate. Is there not a better way to get those transfers to the municipalities? It seems to me that is a critical question.

I want to close on the question of pensions. If there is any public policy area that I do not believe the House has discussed in sufficient detail or with sufficient knowledge, it is the question of pensions. We face a tremendous challenge in the private sector. We face not just the people whose pension funds are underfunded as a result of what has happened, we also face the fact that there are literally millions and millions of employees who do not qualify for pensions and who do not have pensions. We have relied on CPP and RRSPs. There are a great many Canadians, in the millions, who do not have any RRSP money and are going to be left in great difficulty in retirement.

Those are questions and issues that I think need to be dealt with in the budget. Should the budget be defeated at this stage? I do not believe that it should and I hope that my reflections will give the House a chance to move this bill into committee and have it discussed in greater detail.

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Jonquière—Alma Québec

Conservative

Jean-Pierre Blackburn ConservativeMinister of National Revenue and Minister of State (Agriculture)

Madam Speaker, I want to follow up on the comments of the hon. member for Toronto Centre, who said that there were considerable changes between the economic statement and our budget. If there had not been any changes, it would have shown we were out of touch with reality. In just a few months, the global recession has had a very negative effect on our country. The budget had to take these extremely important events into account.

We started with a budget running a surplus of nearly $1 billion only to quickly find out it was all melting away. The expected deficit was now nearly $1 billion. When a government starts with a budget forecasting such a surplus and ends with an expected deficit of $34 billion for the next year, something major has happened.

Our government believes it is important to support Canada’s economy at a time when the private sector is reducing its investments. We are an exporting country. Our businesses are seeing people buy less of what they produce. They are forced to cut production and even let employees go. It is important, therefore, for our government to offset this decline in the private sector through massive investments in infrastructure. We are going to invest $12 billion in it over two years.

We have also provided support for the automobile industry, just as we are helping the forestry sector by providing a tax credit for people who renovate their homes. When people renovate their homes, economic activity increases and this helps companies in the manufacturing and forestry sectors that produce all kinds of products used in renovations. We are also encouraging people to buy their first home by providing another tax credit. There is an array of measures here similar to those on the employment insurance side.

The hon. member for Toronto Centre and his party felt that this was a good approach to take. A budget is never perfect, of course. We cannot do everything, but a least the hon. member has recognized the efforts we are making to try to support Canada’s economy, our employers, our working people and the disadvantaged.

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NDP

The Acting Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

I would like to give the hon. member for Toronto Centre a chance to respond to these comments, if he so desires.

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Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Madam Speaker, you are right in saying that it was more of a comment than a question.

All I can say is—and this is my personal opinion—that you continue to underestimate the impact this global recession is having on Canada. The numbers that you have presented, given the—

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NDP

The Acting Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

I would ask the member to address his comments to the chair.

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Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

I am sorry, Madam Speaker.

I would like to say to the minister that the government is continually underestimating the problem. That could be the reason we keep saying that the proposed measures may not be enough to deal with the problems.

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Bloc

Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Madam Speaker, I listened with great interest to the speech by the member for Toronto Centre. I was wondering exactly how he would try to win us over.

He says that he has serious issues with the budget, and I would like to hear him talk about these issues in detail, given that he agreed from day one to support this government, which, a couple of weeks ago, was in complete denial of reality and is still in denial today. In particular, there are no measures to help the unemployed who have lost their jobs, are losing them today or are at risk of losing them.

I would like the member for Toronto Centre to enlighten us as to the serious issues he has with the budget. And how can these issues not be serious enough to keep him from supporting the budget?

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Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Madam Speaker, I am not trying to win anyone over here. I have lived through three recessions and I saw what happened in a recession. I simply want to share my experience and give the House a few things to think about.

Frankly, I am not satisfied with the measures proposed by the government, but I cannot say, as the hon. member just did, that there is absolutely nothing in this budget to help unemployed workers, as that is not the case. One cannot say things that are simply not true. We must say what is true. We can say that the measures are insufficient, that they can be improved and that amendments can be made.

Based on my experience, if the government is open, the committee stage allows the opportunity to make amendments that can meet people's needs and address their problems.

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NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

Madam Speaker, why is the member afraid to make amendments to this budget bill?

It would allow maybe another unemployed person in Toronto Centre to receive employment insurance. Right now not one additional person will be eligible because of the clauses in this bill.

Why would the member not move an amendment to exempt municipalities such as Toronto from matching the funds on infrastructure? Toronto has already put in $1.6 billion and cannot match any more funds, so it cannot really access the infrastructure funds that are in the budget. Why would the member not move that amendment?

Why would the member not move an amendment to cancel the cuts to science and green technology?

Regarding clause 399 of the bill which amends the Canadian Human Rights Act with respect to pay equity complaints, why would the member not delete that clause right now?