House of Commons Hansard #51 of the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was organizations.

Topics

Seal HuntGovernment Orders

6:55 p.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

Mr. Chair, I first want to thank the government for having three ministers here and two parliamentary secretaries. I know the government is taking this issue very seriously.

As the official critic for the federal NDP in this country, I pledge my whole support in whatever we can do to assist her and her government in getting this issue rectified as soon as possible.

There is no question that it is very difficult to go over the media concerns of an open air abattoir. However, we know what was done with veal and other animals in Europe. My colleague from South Shore and I have been together on this file for many years and it is one of the few issues that we absolutely agree on, which is that it is actually a harvest. I do not necessarily call it a hunt. When I lived in Yukon I used to hunt. The sealers are harvesters and they are taking a animal out of the ocean for the benefit of themselves to earn a livelihood.

For 20-some years, the United States has had what is called the marine mammal protection act which does not allow us to sell seal products to the lower 48, even though the Alaskan Inuit have the right to do so. We have yet to be successful from both Conservative and Liberal governments to get the United States to change its mind on that.

I have two questions for the minister. First, has she called or has the Prime Minister called the ambassadors in from the various countries to tell them our serious concerns? Second, does she have any other partners, Russia, Norway, the Scandinavian countries, that would assist us in this argument in dealing with the EU ban on our seal products?

I thank the hon.Minister of Fisheries and Oceans for her eloquent defence of seal harvest.

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6:55 p.m.

Conservative

Gail Shea Conservative Egmont, PE

Mr. Chair, I can assure the hon. member that we have been in touch with ambassadors and particularly the EU ambassadors to Canada.

In relation to the U.S. and whether or not there is a market for seal products, there are more seal products available now. At one time it was just the pelt, which was seen as a luxury item. We now have a lot of research being done on seal heart valves. We have omega-3 oils. I am sure there will be other value added products, which would be great because we have a good, healthy population of seals. If we can maximize a return from that, it will be good for the industry.

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6:55 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Mr. Chair, I will be splitting my time with the hon. member for Labrador.

I thank the House for the opportunity to speak to an issue of vital importance to the people of not only Newfoundland and Labrador, but to the people of Quebec, the Gaspé and Magdalen area, the people of P.E.I., New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, the people north to the Arctic and those who appreciate the fact that this country is built on natural resources.

Several members from my caucus enthusiastically embrace this debate tonight. I want to pay a special acknowledgement to the leadership of the Liberal Party of Canada and my whip, the hon. member for Cape Breton—Canso, who brought this to the floor of the House of Commons and to the Speaker's attention this morning and who was able to get this debate that we are engaged in tonight.

This issue is of vital importance to so many families, fishermen and aboriginal peoples throughout this entire country. It is absolutely essential that the House engage in this debate at this critical moment.

There is no doubt that we are definitely in a very low point in the history of the sealing fishery, but it is a place, unfortunately, we have been before and rebounded. I will put this in perspective.

In 2005, after many years of building up this industry and growing it not only in terms of the product, but in the markets for the product itself, 349,000 animals were successfully harvested and marketed. The total value of this industry in 2005 was $70 million. We were not talking at that time about the European Union banning Canadian seal products. The European Union was coming to us to expand the trade in seal products. Protesters were few and far between on the ice floes. Quite frankly, this was an industry that was growing.

Today, in 2009, three short years later, the circumstances are extremely different. We will barely harvest and market 100,000 animals this year. The price of those animals has gone from a 2005 high of $106 per pelt to, in three short years, $10 a pelt. The value of the industry now is just about $2 million to $3 million, down from $70 million.

The industry now is contending with the European Union ban. The European Union was talking about expanding seal products three short years ago and now it is banning it outright. Celebrity protesters now outnumber sealers on the ice floes probably two to one. That is where the industry has gone. We have been here before, however.

In the mid-1980s, the government of that day, under Mr. Mulroney and several fisheries ministers, decided to ban the white coat hunt but did not put in place any mechanism to rebuild the industry. They left it to its own devices. The industry was on its back. Market prices were even lower than what they are today, about $5 a pelt. The value of the entire industry was about $1 million and the trade in these products was virtually non-existent.

What a change between the mid-1980s and 2005. How did we get back there again? How did we get back to being an industry in trouble? What we will find is that somebody did not do the work.

It is up to us as parliamentarians to continue to engage the government of the day. We will rebuild this industry. This is a natural, viable, fully sustainable, ecologically supported, ethical and humane industry.

At a time when the world is reaching out for natural food products, for natural products for clothing, for materials and for medicines, this is an industry whose time should be coming, not declining. However, we have this very punitive, very unwarranted ban by the European Union that is based and vested in false information. How do we combat that? We combat it through sincerity, through logic and through fact. We beat back the tides of those who suggest that this is an inhumane industry.

I will take note to the point that while the European Union had no trouble passing this particular motion and subsequent legislation, it put in exemptions for itself. All of those who support this ban or the concept should hear me clearly: they also support 35,000 grey seals being culled in Sweden, not for any commercial purpose, not for any purpose for humanity, not for any purpose other than to dump them at sea, because the European Union built into its platform, that it is all right to cull seals if it suits what it calls an ecological purpose.

People should hear this as well: whoever supports the motion, supports the Government of Canada conducting a cull of the seal herd. The minister herself, today on Tom Clark's program, alluded to the fact that a Canadian government instituted cull may very well be on the horizon. Quite frankly, that is not acceptable.

For a planet starving for protein, for a planet looking for natural food products sustainably harvested, humanely harvested and delivered to the world in a fashion used by the seal fishery, why conduct this ban?

We could get into a to and fro as to who could do what and who should do what, but the evidence does speak for itself. We had a very successful seal harvest that was embraced by the European Union up until 2006. It is now in decline. We as parliamentarians have a responsibility now to work together to make sure that this harvest continues for generations to come. My party, the Liberal Party of Canada, is absolutely committed to that point.

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7:05 p.m.

Nunavut Nunavut

Conservative

Leona Aglukkaq ConservativeMinister of Health

Mr. Chair, before I ask my question, I would like to state that as a northerner, this issue is near and dear to my heart. I come from an area called Netsilingmiut. In English that translates to “the people of the seal”.

As many members know, in the north the cost of living is very high. In my hometown a pineapple costs $15, a turkey costs $100 and a T-bone steak will sometimes cost $25. We depend on the wildlife in the north for food security, whether it be the polar bear, the seal, the fish or duck. I have a brother who is a full-time hunter and continues to hunt to this day for a living.

One of the things that we have said many times in the north is that we are a product of our environment. We do not have farms in our communities. We depend on every animal, on the wildlife in our area for food security. Whether it be a polar bear ban or a seal ban, collectively this has huge implications to the population in the north.

To get to the question around the high cost of living, when we are dealing with the high cost of living in the north, we depend on the seal hunt. Not only that, the carbon tax proposed by the Liberal government would increase the cost of food even more. Does the member realize the impact this would have on people in the northern communities and in outside communities, whether it be the seal ban supported by their senator and/or the carbon tax?

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7:05 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Mr. Chair, in terms of the suggested taxation issue that the minister raised on the floor of the House of Commons in the middle of an important debate on the future of the seal fishery, I would ask the minister in return, why did her government and her party promise during the election campaign to eliminate the excise tax, or at least cut it in half, on diesel fuel, but yet she stands for supporting it and maintaining it? The Conservatives have indeed denounced that particular platform in their policy.

I hope tonight's debate does not devolve into the nonsense we have heard so often from the party opposite. I hope this is a high profile, high spirited and highly intellectual debate where we actually discuss the issues and come up with solutions to the problem.

In the context of the seal hunt and northerners, is she concerned that the minister said on Tom Clark's program that this proposed seal ban will negatively affect aboriginal populations in the north? The Minister of Fisheries and Oceans said that it should have a clouding, poisonous impact on the Canada-E.U. trade negotiations which will occur tomorrow, but the minister herself still agrees that those negotiations should continue. How does that make the hon. member and the minister feel?

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7:05 p.m.

Bloc

Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Mr. Chair, I would like to make one small point in passing. I sit here with my Liberal friends, but at the same time I would have liked us to be able to be together all round. I could also have been sitting with Conservative Party or New Democratic Party members, because I believe that this issue goes beyond party politics. Ultimately, it is a fight for the truth. It is a fight for respect. Our traditions have to be respected. When I look at the European decision my impression is not that our traditions and so on are being respected.

I would like to ask the member what action should be taken starting now in relation to the negotiations about the Canada-European Summit that are beginning? What approach should our negotiators there be taking?

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7:10 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Mr. Chair, this has to be highlighted at the highest level. What an opportunity for the Conservative government to use the high level meetings that are being conducted personally by the Prime Minister to make a statement to the European Union.

Just weeks ago, members of the G20 nations stood, supposedly in solidarity with each other, and condemned any actions that would prevent free trade and condemned any actions that would impose trade barriers. Every member of the G20, Prime Minister Gordon Brown on one side, President Sarkozy on the other, stood and said, “We would never do that”. What an opportunity lost. The Prime Minister had an opportunity to show leadership on the issue. He did not even raise the issue. Now today we are engaged in free trade talks while there is an illegal trade action currently under way by the European Union. Where is the leadership?

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7:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Assistant Deputy Chair Conservative Barry Devolin

Before we resume debate, I want to remind members that when members give a 10-minute speech, there are 10 minutes for questions and answers. When members are splitting their time, it is only five minutes for the speech and five minutes for questions and answers.

I would ask members to work with the Chair to try to ask their questions in about a minute and for those responding to take about a minute. In that way more people will get the opportunity to participate.

Resuming debate, the hon. member for Labrador.

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7:10 p.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

Mr. Chair, my colleague from Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte is doing a tremendous job in terms of representing our party on fishing issues. Certainly he has been vocal and is very knowledgeable on the seal hunt and the devastating impact this European seal ban will have on our communities. I want to thank my caucus colleagues, many of whom are here tonight, for their support.

This issue affects me personally. I come from a small community on the coast of Labrador, a little place called Williams Harbour. Right now there are only 45 people living there and there were not a lot more than that at its height. It has depended on the seal hunt. It is a part of our livelihood. Just like so many communities along the coast of Labrador, or in northern Canada, or around the coast of Newfoundland, they live on the land and they live on the sea. The seal hunt has always been a part of our tradition. It has always been a part of who we are.

Williams Harbour is also an aboriginal community, an Inuit Métis community. We know the importance of the seal hunt not just over a few decades or even a few centuries. It is something that goes deep into our being; it is something that forms a part of our identity.

When I hear of a ban and some kind of exemption for Inuit or aboriginal people, I categorically reject that ban. That is just trying to save face. It is trying to emphasize to other stakeholders that they are being sensitive. They have no idea how we live in those communities. They have no idea what it means to a family in terms of food and clothing, and in terms of supplementary industries. Many people in our communities depend on seal byproducts for the craft industry which helps the tourism industry.

I know so many families from communities like Black Tickle or other places in Labrador where a family's annual income is $15,000 to $20,000. When $3,000 or $4,000 is earned in the springtime, that means something to that family. That means paying a few bills, buying a bit of food, maybe helping their kid go to university or college. It is so easy for politicians in other parts of the world not to understand this, or try to understand it, and that includes some politicians and activists here in our own country.

This is a humane hunt. It is a sustainable hunt. It is a legal hunt. It is a hunt that is built on the principles of conservation. My hon. colleague from Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte talked about the fact that there is an exemption in the legislation that allows certain countries within the European Union to cull animals for conservation purposes.

We harvest animals here on a conservation ethic. We try to find that balance too, because there are many within our communities who know the impact that an overpopulated seal herd can have on other fish species. As one of our former premiers of Newfoundland and Labrador said, the seals are in the water and they are not eating turnips. They are eating other fish and there is no doubt about that.

My hon. colleague also said in 2005 we had a vibrant seal harvest. Over 340,000 animals were taken and marketed. They were worth something like $70 million. People were asking for these products. That was three short years ago and now the government is saying it is going to take all kinds of action now that the ban is in place. People in our communities will ask what the government has been doing for the last three years to stand up for the sealers. What has the ambassador for fish conservation, the patronage appointment who was sent to Europe, been doing for the last three years to protect our sealers?

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7:15 p.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

That is no way to talk about Loyola Sullivan, decent guy that he is.

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7:15 p.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

Yes, Loyola Sullivan.

Mr. Chair, why will they not make this a part of the EU expanded trade talks? It is fine to talk at home and try to win political points at home, but we have to put those words into action on the international stage because that is where the action is happening. I ask, what have they done in the last three years to protect our sealers? They talk a good talk, but they do not walk a good walk.

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7:15 p.m.

Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon B.C.

Conservative

Chuck Strahl ConservativeMinister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development and Federal Interlocutor for Métis and Non-Status Indians

Mr. Chair, this is an important debate. At times it seems like it is a very sombre debate, and understandably so. We are all very worried about the European ban on the seal harvest.

In the first half of my hon. colleague's comments, I was able to nod in agreement. I do not know why he drifted off into the partisan issues at the end. It is very unwise, as a couple of people have said, to bring that into what should be a very serious debate.

He knows full well that the government has left no rock unturned, no opportunity lost, to try to impress upon the European parliamentarians the seriousness of this, the complete lack of science based on this sort of a ban, the futility of trying to carve out an Inuit-only component, when an Inuit-only component means the end of the seal industry and selling into a market that is non-existent.

He knows full well that Mr. Sullivan is an honourable man. The member called it a patronage appointment. I think he is a bigger man than that. He should know better than that. He has done yeoman's service for us over there. The fisheries minister has done the job. The foreign affairs minister has done the job. The Premier of Nunavut has been there.

I was in Nunavut for the 10th anniversary celebrations a month or two ago. European parliamentarians, who will get copies of this I am sure, should understand the impact this will have on the north. They say they care about the Inuit people. They care not a bit for the Inuit people who have spent thousands of years harvesting seals. What is more, they have done it in a way that is sustainable, that is humane and that has provided a small bit of economic opportunity.

I would ask that the debate focus on that instead of drifting into the political. We can do that if we have to, but let us concentrate on sending a message to parliamentarians that Canadians are united against what is a hypocritical and senseless ban on the seal harvest in Canada.

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7:15 p.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

Mr. Chair, I appreciate the words of my hon. colleague, who tries to teach a lesson in being non-partisan. We all have been privy in the House to the government talking about the seal hunt in very partisan terms over the last month. This did a disservice to the energy that should have been focused on the European parliament and not within this Parliament. If there is partisan rhetoric going around, the government is going to have to share its own burden in that respect.

When it comes to the impact on the north, there is a tremendous impact upon Inuit peoples and northerners, but no less impact upon the people who ring the coastline around the island of Newfoundland, along the shores of Labrador, down into the Magdalen Islands and other parts of Atlantic Canada. It has a different type of impact in certain parts of Atlantic Canada with a bit of different emphasis.

I want to put this on the record. We have asked for some assistance for our sealers this spring because they have been going through a difficult time with ice conditions and the low price of pelts. They are going through an ever-increasing difficult time now. We called for assistance from the government to help our sealers. Are there any plans in place on the part of the government to assist our sealers, Inuit, non-Inuit, aboriginal, non-aboriginal, people in the north and parts of Atlantic Canada as we go forward?

The government has to take action on the international scene, which there seems to be some hesitation about, but it also has to look at what we can do domestically, within our country, to help our sealers as well. I would like to hear from the government on that.

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7:20 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Mr. Chair, there is no partisanship here. It was a statement by the Fur Institute of Canada and the Canadian Sealers Association. On the Fishermen's Broadcast in Newfoundland and Labrador today, they said that they were contacted by European parliamentarians about this issue in a general discussion. The European Union parliamentarians asked the Fur Institute of Canada and the Canadian Sealers Association where there Canadian government was. They said that it was non-existent on this issue, that it did not engage with them at all. That was made public on the Fishermen's Broadcast in Newfoundland and Labrador this afternoon.

Could my colleague, the member for Labrador, tell me if that was a partisan rant by the Fur Institute of Canada and the Canadian Sealers Association?

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7:20 p.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

Mr. Chair, my colleague from Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte raises a very good point.

One does not always have to turn a criticism or a critique into something that is partisan. However, if the government says that it has left no stone unturned and that it has had an aggressive campaign, I would ask it to answer a very specific question. There were 550 people who voted for the ban and 49 who voted against the ban. How effective has the government's campaign been if no rock was left unturned?

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7:20 p.m.

Bloc

Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Mr. Chair, as I said earlier, we may actually have got off to quite a start when it comes to partisanship and I do not think that anyone is in a position to teach anyone else lessons when it comes to the seal hunt. For myself, I have been a member for five years now and I have had an opportunity to play an active role on this issue. We would not have got to where we are today without unanimity among all political parties on the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans, from the Bloc Québécois, certainly, but also from the Conservative Party, the New Democratic Party and the Liberal Party.

The reason we have got to where we are today is precisely that we were able to deal with the issue in a non-partisan manner. It seems to me that we are a little behind the curve, because demagoguery and disinformation have won out for 30 years now in Europe.

Yes, there has been a bit of action, but not enough to suit me. I have a lot of critical things to say about this, but they are intended as constructive criticisms. I also have a lot of ideas on this, or potential actions we could take to deal with the situation. To put us in context again, there have been 30 years of demagoguery and disinformation, which explains why this is no easy task. The challenge is enormous, immense. When it comes down to it, the ones we have to convince are the European parliamentarians, but also the 500 million Europeans. In the end, 500 million people in Europe have been contaminated by disinformation and demagoguery.

Each time I have gone there and have raised the seal hunting issue, I have had the impression—not that I was necessarily ill received, which is not the problem—that they had heard just one side of the story and here we were coming along with the other version. This is a counter-argument at last. It may be far too late in coming, in a way, because the damage has been done.

We can see that the European parliamentarians, who will very soon be off campaigning again, and are thinking of nothing else than re-election, of the elections looming on June 4, have almost unanimously decided to vote in favour of the ban. Only a very few, fifty or so, have decided to vote against it and one of those deserves our praise: Peter Stastny. Though I am not necessarily a backer of the Quebec Nordiques, since I am a Montreal Canadiens fan, I think it is worth noting that Peter Stastny was one of the opponents, and I read today that he was a pretty energetic opponent. Just as he has managed to score goals against my beloved Habs, I think he has scored some good goals in this instance, with a view to helping the truth win out. What we are trying to do in this issue is bring out the truth.

Things are now at the point that even greater intervention is needed. We can no longer content ourselves with having the Canadian embassy host the odd reception to talk about the seal hunt, giving a little presentation to a few individuals or calling people to a small meeting. We must go much further. That is why I believe we have reached a crossroads in this file. If nothing else, what happened today should shake us up and serve as a wake-up call. It should also serve as a wake-up call for the government, since it is not my intention to flatter them too much. We must all wake up, band together and come up with a real action plan that includes a real information and awareness campaign.

Personally, I have done little on this file strictly speaking, but in a way, I have done many things. I have had the opportunity to meet many parliamentarians and, if nothing else, I managed to get some of them to the Magdalen Islands so they could meet some of the people who live there. There were not many parliamentarians, only three. But the little effort I was able to make, along with the efforts made by the people of the Magdalen Islands in recent years, and the efforts we can all make in our own small way, can be significant.

We are at a crossroads. What is going on now must spur us into action, and we must also set aside partisanship. We must find a way to launch a massive information campaign with people who know about seal hunting, who engage in that activity, and who could eventually travel to Europe. They have already done so, but they must do so again. We could use the Centre d'interprétation du phoque, in the Magdalen Islands, which is a facility that already exists. A travelling exhibition could go to various places. It already does in Canada. We must make efforts in the right places. We must do something more significant than merely reacting to those who are challenging us, to abolitionists. These people are not defending animals. Rather, I see them more as abolitionists, who just want to abolish the seal hunt and who totally betray our history and traditions. We are well aware that the seal hunt is an activity that goes back 200 years or 300 years in the Magdalen Islands. I believe this is also the case in Newfoundland and Labrador.

It is an honourable tradition that is carried on with great pride. We must show very conclusively to Europeans that the seal hunt, which is a yearly activity, is not only aimed at selling sealskins to make money. It is an activity that is in the blood of the Magdalen Islanders, of the residents of Newfoundland and Labrador, and of those of the lower North Shore. It is an activity that triggers what will follow in the days and the months to come. That tradition is respectable and it is carried on honourably.

This is a good starting point. Indeed, in Europe, today or very soon, we are going to continue negotiating a free trade agreement. Ultimately, we must ask why we would act like barbarians when it comes to hunting seal, but not in the context of a free trade agreement between Canada and the European Union.

By that, I mean I can see that grandstanding and misinformation have prevailed, but we have tools at our disposal. We have to use them to the fullest. I am very pleased to see several ministers here this evening. It is clear that this has to be a team effort. The Minister of Fisheries and Oceans cannot do it alone. She will need help from the Minister of Foreign Affairs, the Minister of International Trade and other ministers involved in one way or another in this matter. They will all have to work together on this.

As someone put it, we need more leadership. Leadership is the only thing that will help us deal with this problem, this challenge. As I have often said, we no longer have problems; we have challenges. If we think of situations as challenges, we find within ourselves enough energy to deal with them. If we see them as problems, they are much harder to overcome.

This is a challenge of monumental proportions, but we can face it if we think of the people who hunt and fish every day in an honourable and respectful way. We have many good arguments on our side, but the best one is that we are standing up for truth. Sealing abolitionists will say anything. They say that hunters still go after baby seals, that their methods are cruel, and so on. We stand for truth, equipped with a report from independent veterinarians. These animals are not killed inhumanely. The seal hunt is like an outdoor abattoir. Naturally, an outdoor abattoir is not an easy image to sell as fantastic and wonderful. We cannot think like that.

I think that this is a tremendous challenge, but we are up to it.

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7:30 p.m.

Central Nova Nova Scotia

Conservative

Peter MacKay ConservativeMinister of National Defence and Minister for the Atlantic Gateway

Mr. Chair, I congratulate my colleague on his speech.

He is right. It is appropriate and necessary for the government and all members of this House to work together on this matter. It is important for all Canadians to understand the facts. He has raised a number of good points.

The hon. member touched upon the fact that this is an issue that should be uniting Canadians, as we saw today in the House of Commons, where all members came together to facilitate this debate.

We can all spend time referencing past indiscretions and decisions. We can talk about the record of the previous government and the one before, and we can go right back through the generations. That will not help. The reality is that we have seven million seals in the North Atlantic that are eating fish at an alarming rate: seven millions tonnes a year.

Several members referenced, what had this government done? We have made interventions at the North Atlantic Fisheries Ministers' Conference. The previous minister of fisheries, Loyola Hearn, and Loyola Sullivan, the fisheries ambassador have been staunch advocates for those fishermen and women who rely heavily on this important industry. There are issues related to the industry that we have to delve into to educate Europeans, which is much of the task.

The hon. member talked about the need to engage at every level. The Prime Minister has made numerous interventions with counterparts, with leaders at the United Nations, and the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans the same. This has been constantly on the agenda for Canada and will continue to be so. We can continue to revel in what happened in the past. We can act like a turnip or we can all get together and voice with one voice Canada's support for this important industry. To do so will require some discipline.

I recognize that there are members on the opposite side, including Senator Harb, who are of a different view and are advocating against the seal hunt. He was on CBC this morning doing the same.

I would encourage those members to speak to members within their own party to ensure that they are together on the issues, to bring them onside, and to educate people like Senator Harb to ensure that he knows the real story. That is what we would ask them to do, rather than rant and rave, and bring about the righteous indignation. Bring members of their own party onside on this issue.

That is what I would ask that member to do within the Bloc, within the NDP and the Liberals. If we can get everybody behind this issue, we can put a truly Canadian position forward, bring the Europeans around, educate them, and tell them that Canada is behind its sealers.

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7:35 p.m.

Bloc

Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Mr. Chair, I will attempt to answer the question that is buried in the commentary.

I understand very well that it is possible to be attracted by all sorts of manoeuvres that may be partisan. I have already met with Mac Harb, a Liberal senator who I do not like at all. I went to see him to find out what he wanted. I have the impression that he was looking for his moment of glory and he got it. This does not taint the entire Liberal Party. But, at the same time, this shows that I would like the Liberals to condemn Mac Harb's gesture. That is one thing.

If we speak only of these aspects, we will never finish. There are many criticisms I could level at this government. I repeat that this poses an enormous challenge and that we must be united. It is possible to be united in adversity on condition that we have a common vision. We do share a vision. We are defending the seal hunt, in a non-partisan way, everywhere. However, when it comes to how we will do that, it is an entirely different matter. We might have misgivings or different perspectives, but that is not very serious. However, we have to start from the premise that we are unanimous in defending the seal hunt. Now all that remains is to determine what means we shall employ.

For my part, I will always defend the principle that if we do not reach all Europeans, we shall lose the battle for truth. That is why I am coming back to the idea of conducting a massive information campaign.

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7:35 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Mr. Chair, the member has given the House great counsel here tonight. I respect what he has to say and I respect the fact that he has made a huge contribution within the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans.

He gives us an opportunity and leeway. I attempted tonight to ask the government, if in the context of the European Union free trade talks, in the context of the previous summit of the G20, was there an opportunity there for the government to really reinforce that message that this is an illegal trade action being conducted by the European Union, that these actions are contrary to the very summit and the very declaration that was signed by the G20 member states?

Could the hon. member, my colleague from Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, simply comment on what tools the government use today to reinforce this message that the European Union is currently engaged in an illegal trade activity, a ban which is contrary to the WTO, the World Trade Organization, and that it is showing a certain degree of political immaturity by doing that at a time when the entire world is calling out to its leaderships asking: “Don't impose false trade barriers or bans in the wake of this global economic recession”?

The European Union at this time is not showing political maturity by raising an illegal trade action related to Canadian seal products. It is showing the contrary. Would the hon. member comment on that or maybe suggest what further the government can do to make that position perfectly clear to the European Union?

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Bloc

Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Mr. Chair, I want to say first that the attack—because it is an attack—on the reputation of the people of the Magdalen Islands, Newfoundland and Labrador and the lower North Shore is horrendous. To face this attack, we must use all the means at our disposal.

Depending on attack x, y or z from an adversary, one of these means is to react relatively passively and wait to see what happens. Will the adversary tire of his attacks? This attitude should be condemned and it is certainly reprehensible. I think we should act with great vigour and rigour.

The abolitionists use pictures to their advantage to wage their campaigns and battles. I have to admit they do it vigorously, but not very rigorously. We have to respond in kind. There are many places where we can act: the G7, G8, G20, and so forth. We could also bring this issue up in the incipient negotiations over a free trade agreement between the European Union and Canada. There are places where we can act, but we need to do so with more vigour. This means that the government needs to have teamwork. We parliamentarians can work together collegially as a team, but the government has to do it as a team too.

I would therefore encourage the Minister of Foreign Affairs to act with greater rigour. He said just recently, in a rather resigned way, that what they are doing does not make any sense and we would see at the WTO. I do not think that is the way to react. We have to take the offensive, act rather than react.

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NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Mr. Chair, I am pleased to have an opportunity to join in this debate. I welcome the fact that all parties have agreed to take the time of Parliament to debate this extremely important issue to the people of my province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

I want to acknowledge the contribution of other members to the debate and welcome their participation. The member for Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine is certainly an ally of the sealers in our province and in the fight that has been going on for many years to recognize the fact that the seal harvest is an important part of the economic activity of Canada. We have also heard from speakers on the other side of the House who underscored this point as well.

Members on both sides of the House agree that this is an important issue. It is an important issue for Canada. It is an important issue for Canadians. It is important because our government has an obligation to defend the industry, the culture, and the livelihood of Canadians.

The seal harvest and the seal fishery play an extremely important role in the economy, culture and livelihood of the Inuit people all across the north. The Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami and the Inuit Circumpolar Council have been active in this fight as well. Mary Simon participated in a TV program today. I am going to refer later in my speech to a press release issued by them a couple of weeks ago which has some importance here.

I would like to put on the record very clearly that we are dealing with an industry, and a form of livelihood, that is humane, that is market-driven, and is sustainable. We do not tolerate inhumane practices. Our sustainable harvest is based on solid science, sound conservation principles, and by using the precautionary principle when setting quotas.

These extremely important principles are applied to this animal harvest, which is a legitimate form of economic activity that has been going on, as others have mentioned, for several hundred years in Newfoundland and Labrador after a European settlement, but for many centuries and perhaps thousands of years by our brothers and sisters among the Inuit. We have an obligation to preserve this harvest and I think there is agreement on that.

We might need to put this into a little perspective.

It seems hard to get a copy, but I have a copy of the resolution that was passed today. It was first reading of a document, so it is not all over yet by any means. We are talking basically of a first reading adoption of a set of regulations of the European parliament. There are other steps to go before the countries of the European Union seek to act upon this resolution. I do not think it is too late, but we may have lost the PR campaign in dealing with the European parliamentarians.

We are concerned about our voting record in Canada and the percentage of people who vote in our elections. I invite members to find out what percentage of the European population actually votes in the European parliamentary elections. I see one of my colleagues pointing his thumb down. I think we might be talking about 20% or less.

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Conservative

Gerald Keddy Conservative South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS

Yes, 18%.

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NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

I hear 18%, Mr. Speaker. We have to wonder whether this reflects the true opinion of the people of Europe, or whether these people are responding to mass campaigns of misinformation about the nature of the seal harvest.

There is a statement at the beginning of the resolution saying:

Whereas:

(1) Seals are sentient animals that can experience pain, distress, fear and other forms of suffering.

It goes on say:

--to ban all cruel hunting methods which do not guarantee the instantaneous death, without suffering, of the animals, to prohibit the stunning of animals with instruments such as hakapiks, bludgeons and guns,--

The European Union is not outlawing hunting. It is not saying that the 35,000 seals that are culled and presumably left to rot or dropped to the bottom of the ocean by Sweden are going to be protected by the European Union. It is aiming at the market for Canadian seal products.

By the way, the seal products we are talking about are seal meat, which is very high in protein, and seal oils, the most important part of which are omega-3 fatty acids that are processed for food products.

We are also talking about hides. They are not banning hides for cows or any other animals. They are not banning leather belts, which I am wearing today. They are not banning leather shoes. They are not banning any of the things that are part of humankind's use of animals in our daily life.

They are picking on this one particular thing, because this is the top of the line for those people who would actually like to ban all those other things. However, they do not have any support for it. They buy misinformation about the seal harvest and the whitecoat seal pup, the hunting of which has been banned for over 20 years. They are misinforming the public. They are using the public, and they have managed to get to these European parliamentarians.

I think we agree that this is wrong. The question is what we do about it There has been a lot of talk about the WTO. At the end of the day, that might be our only choice. However, there is a problem with that. We are now sitting at the main table, not with the European Parliament or these parliamentarians who get elected by less than 20% of the vote, but with the European Union.

We are dealing with the countries and the trade ministers who represent their individual countries. We are at the main table, and we should be there, saying that we have some problems. We have some problems with this proposed ban, which is a non-tariff trade barrier. We want that off the table, right away.

There are other things that my province is concerned about. The 20% shrimp tariff is hurting not only Newfoundland but the Canadian fishing industry. The Minister of National Defence knows a lot about that from his province as well.

But that is still there. I do not hear anybody saying this is going to be a precondition for our negotiations. We want to get rid of this. If we are going to remove barriers, that is a very important one. We have to have that first. This is where the action is. It is at the main table of these negotiations.

I do not want to see us in a situation in five years' time like the NAFTA agreement. On paper, it looked great. We had a free trade agreement. Meanwhile, the senators and congressmen in the U.S. invented and encouraged all these applications before the NAFTA to stir up trouble. They knew it was illegal, just as the European Council knows that this ban on seal products is illegal.

That gets me back to the Inuit Tapirisat and the Inuit Circumpolar Council. They released a press release on March 27, indicating that the Council of the European Union was told by its own legal advisors that the proposed EU-wide ban on imported seal products would contravene both the EU Charter and their obligations under the World Trade Organization. So what are they doing? They are doing it anyway.

That is what the Americans do. The American government does not do that; it stands by and allows someone else do it. What happens? Let us talk about softwood lumber. We know the story of softwood lumber. What happened? The government eventually caved in. It caved in on softwood lumber because of costs, loss and everything else. We do not have a great record in standing up for these things. While we have a chance and we are at the main table, let us get the action happening there.

I was asked what I thought of the WTO in an interview today. I said, well, the WTO is there, but if I am sitting at the main table with the European Union and I start talking about the ban on seal imports, the European Union is going to say it understands we have a problem with that; it understands we have taken it to the WTO; that is where it should be resolved. It will then want to talk about something else.

That is the problem. That is the logical problem. That is the political problem. The political problem is not here. It is there. The government must be prepared to commit to going there and saying at the main table that this is an issue about which we are concerned.

I hope that from this debate tonight the consensus will be that it is a significant enough trade problem for Canada to take action. We want our Prime Minister, Minister of International Trade and representatives to bring this up at the main table to try to resolve it there.

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Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission B.C.

Conservative

Randy Kamp ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans

Mr. Chair, I appreciate the support of my colleague and his party on this issue.

The member made some comments about the involvement of the WTO, and that might well be the direction we are heading in. I think he is advocating taking tougher action than that, maybe even to the point of triggering a trade war. I am not sure if he is suggesting that.

Let me ask the hon. member something in a different way. Parliamentarians in the EU made this decision today. I suppose the parliamentarians, like us, respond to their constituents in terms of the decisions they make. They would certainly take into account what they hear from their constituents on issues, and probably on this issue as well.

For us to have long-term success on this issue, we need to be involved in changing the hearts and minds of Europeans, not just the European parliamentarians who are getting feedback from their constituents.

I wonder if the hon. member has any advice for the government on how we could be effective in that way?

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NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Mr. Chair, I do not think we should go all the way, where we either get a ban or have a trade war.

We are talking about negotiations. Negotiations involve stating a position and fighting for it. What is it we want from these trade negotiations? Are we saying we want to have a free trade agreement and we are prepared to put all of our interests to one side to get “free trade”? Are we going to forget about the things that are important to us?

If it is important to us, then we make it a part of the negotiations. We do not have either a trade war or an agreement on everything. I am talking about an effective way of doing it.

I agree there is a problem with talking just to parliamentarians or just having delegations talk to governments. Perhaps someone from the government could tell us how much money the Government of Canada spent on advertising, trying to reach those hearts and minds, trying to find effective ways to get on television over there.

I do not know if this is the best example, but I am sure everybody in this House has seen the beautiful ads about Newfoundland and Labrador. They make the place look like the most attractive place in the world, encouraging people to come. I think I see nods from my colleagues from Newfoundland and Labrador, here and from all over the country, that these are magnificent ads. They attract people's attention.

Perhaps someone could tell us how much money the Government of Canada, with its resources, has spent trying to change those hearts and minds, trying to compete with the misinformation. I know it is expensive, but we are talking about protecting our way of life. We should not have to change because people are misinformed in other parts of the world.