House of Commons Hansard #45 of the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was industry.

Topics

Competition Act (Inquiry into Industry Sector)Private Members' Business

6:10 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Bouchard Bloc Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC

Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure for me to rise today on Bill C-452. I want to congratulate my colleague, the hon. member for Shefford, for having introduced this bill to strengthen the Competition Bureau’s ability to make inquiries. We also hope that some parts of this legislation will find their way into government bill C-14 on electricity and gas inspection and on the Weights and Measures Act.

I had an opportunity earlier this week to speak on Bill C-14, and it is good that we are now going to discuss Bill C-452, which is still necessary in our view. We need to continue our efforts to deal effectively with the problem posed by the Competition Act, which still does not allow the Competition Bureau to conduct inquiries on its own initiative. It is still necessary, unfortunately, to wait for a complaint from some individual before an inquiry can be initiated.

Even though the Bloc Québécois supports Bill C-14 in principle, it is not an end in itself. With the introduction of Bill C-452, the Bloc Québécois reiterates its intention of freeing Quebec from its dependence on oil through a bold program focused on green energy and the electric car.

To do this, Bill C-452 expands on the measures the government is introducing in Bill C-14 by proposing further steps that could be taken to protect consumers.

Our bill would give the Competition Bureau the power to conduct on its own initiative real inquiries into an industry if there are reasonable grounds for doing so. At present, this is not permitted. The Bureau has to wait for complaints or for instructions from the minister before it can act.

Even though the government says it took action to correct the situation in the Budget Implementation Act of January 2009, there are no provisions in this act allowing the Competition Bureau to make inquiries on its own initiative. A complaint is still needed before an inquiry can be launched.

It is obvious that a bill like this would leave the Competition Bureau much better equipped to fight companies that want to take advantage of their dominant position in the market to fleece consumers.

The Bloc Québécois is not inventing anything new here. We have simply repeated for several years now the recommendations in the report of the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology, which was tabled in November 2003. The federal government has never done anything to help consumers in this regard. It has a fine opportunity here, though, to set up a monitoring system for the petroleum industry.

To understand the steps leading to the debate on Bill C-452, we need to go into the history of it.

In 2003, the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology tabled a study on the price of gasoline that made two recommendations to the government: create a petroleum monitoring agency and tighten up the Competition Act. The committee even specified the changes to the Competition Act that it would like to see. At the time, the Bloc was already saying that the government should implement the committee’s recommendations.

In October 2005, the Liberal government came around to the Bloc’s arguments and, as part of its plan to help curb the increase in the price of gas, it tabled amendments to the Competition Act in Bill C-19.

Unfortunately, Bill C-19 was just an election gimmick to give the impression the government was doing something to discipline the oil industry and it died on the order paper.

The Conservatives are quite enamoured of the oil industry, of course, and it is hardly surprising that they did not re-introduce the bill.

As a result, in 2007 the Bloc Québécois tabled Bill C-454, which passed second reading on April 28, 2008. But it too died on the order paper when an election was called in 2008.

In 2009, the Conservative government partly revived Bill C-454 in the Budget Implementation Act of January 27, 2009, although the Competition Bureau still was not allowed to launch inquiries on its initiative.

So here we are seven years later debating Bill C-452 to give the Competition Bureau some real teeth.

There is no doubt, in the Bloc’s view, that the Competition Bureau should have greater freedom of action and more discretionary power over its inquiries. To conduct an inquiry, the Competition Bureau needs access to all the documents so that it can do a good job of investigating and promoting competition.

The Bloc Québécois has long been pressing the government to take action in view of the rising price of petroleum products. Bill C-452 is just a first step toward countering the increase in the price of gas.

Apart from Bill C-452, the Bloc is more convinced than ever that the industry should do its fair share.

As I said at the beginning of my speech, Bill C-452 is part of a plan for sweeping change.

First, we must put a stop to the tax cuts for oil companies. In 2007 or just one year after taking power, the Conservative government gave the oil companies another tax cut in the 2007 economic update. As a result, the companies will see their tax rate fall to 15% in 2012. In that year alone, this tax break will help them pocket nearly $3.6 billion.

We also need to reduce our dependence on oil. Quebec does not produce any oil and every drop that Quebeckers consume impoverishes Quebec, in addition to contributing to global warming. The Bloc Québécois therefore wants to reduce our dependence on oil.

In 2009 alone, Quebec imported $9 billion worth of oil, less than usual because of the recession, but in 2008, oil imports totalled $17 billion. Over a period of five years, from 2003 to 2008, oil imports increased by $11 billion.

Furthermore, to reduce our dependence on oil, the Bloc has proposed substantial investments in alternative energies to create a green energy fund, launch a real initiative to reduce our consumption of oil for transportation, heating and industry, including an incentive to convert oil heating systems, and introduce a plan for electric cars.

We have to get ready, because by 2012, 11 auto manufacturers plan to introduce some 30 fully electric and hybrid models.

The objectives of Bill C-452 are clear. A bold program focused on green energies and electric cars that will allow Quebec to end its dependence on oil is urgently needed.

Until we can put an end to this dependence on oil, we must give more power to the Competition Bureau by allowing it to initiate inquiries, and by creating a petroleum monitoring agency.

Competition Act (Inquiry into Industry Sector)Private Members' Business

6:25 p.m.

Conservative

Dean Allison Conservative Niagara West—Glanbrook, ON

Madam Speaker, I welcome this opportunity to take part in the second reading debate regarding Bill C-452, An Act to amend the Competition Act (inquiry into industry sector).

I would like to take a moment to frame my thoughts on this bill within the broader context of the government's plan for Canada's continuing economic recovery.

As we made clear in the Speech from the Throne, this government's goal, as we move forward into our recovery, is to ensure all Canadians benefit from our agenda of providing jobs and growth.

Over the last year, our government has taken decisive steps to protect incomes, create jobs, ease credit markets and help workers and communities get back on their feet.

Moving forward, our strategy for the economy is to create the conditions for continued success in the industries that are the foundation for Canada's prosperity. Our government is committed to identifying and removing unnecessary job-killing regulation and barriers to growth. This government stands for free and open markets. Open and competitive markets are the best way to promote new dynamic, innovative products and ideas.

Having set out this broader perspective on the government's priorities, allow me now to the turn to the details of the bill.

On its face, the bill appears to be quite straightforward. It proposes a single amendment to the Competition Act. If adopted, it would provide the Commissioner of Competition with additional power to commence a formal inquiry under the act.

To be clear, the act already allows the commissioner to start a formal inquiry into the conduct of a company, or companies, whenever she has reasonable grounds to believe that the act has, in some way, been violated. The amendment being proposed now would add to that authority. It would allow the commissioner to start an inquiry into an entire industry sector at large.

There is an important distinction between what exists today and what is being proposed.

Under Bill C-452, there would be no requirement to show any evidence that the enforcement provisions of the act might, in some way, have been contravened.

It is important to understand the consequences of such a change. The commencement of a formal inquiry is a serious step in the investigative process. Once at the stage of inquiry, the commissioner is able to apply to the courts for permission to use the investigative powers of the Competition Act to subpoena oral and written evidence from any party who may have relevant information regarding the matter under investigation. This is reasonable power for the commissioner when she is examining business practices that she has a basis for believing violate the enforcement sections of the act.

The commissioner must have access to modern and sophisticated investment tools to allow her to determine, in an unbiased fashion, whether the law has been violated.

At the same time, this is an authority that imposes both considerable and complicated obligations for those under investigation and significant public and private costs to ensure the obligations are met. Failure to comply raises the risk of being found in contempt and the possibility of fines and imprisonment.

The position of the Commissioner of Competition demands the exercise of prudence and good judgment. I have every confidence that the Commissioner of Competition does, and will continue to, exercise her authorities with the utmost care and responsibility.

However, the Office of the Commissioner requires direction. The introduction of this type of power proposed by the bill would put at risk the reputation of the commissioner and the staff she directs. The authority to inquire into an entire industry sector without any evidence of wrongdoing would open the commissioner to criticism that she is engaging in a costly fishing expedition.

We must also remember that the commencement of a formal inquiry and the commissioner's use of her formal powers come at a cost to her office. Her primary responsibilities are the enforcement provisions of the Competition Act. Any inquiry into an entire industry sector would demand extensive use of limited bureau resources. Without additional funding, the commissioner would need to reallocate assets from her other priorities.

It is imperative that Parliament consider the burdens we would impose on the commissioner when we amend the legislation and establish her enforcement priorities, and the cost to Canadian businesses and consumers if we distract from that principled focus.

As I noted at the outset of my comments, this government is committed to improving job opportunities for Canadians and growing our economy. We are committed to finding and eliminating unnecessary job-killing regulation and barriers to growth. We are not here to introduce measures that would result in new barriers to growth and prosperity.

As we consider this bill, we must also remember the steps that this government and this Parliament have already taken to address the issues that lie at the heart of this bill.

With the passage of Bill C-10, the Budget Implementation Act, 2009, in March 2009, this government introduced the most substantial amendments to Canada's anti-cartel laws in more than 100 years. These changes introduced an outright prohibition on agreements between competitors regarding prices, output levels and market sharing.

Competition Act (Inquiry into Industry Sector)Private Members' Business

6:30 p.m.

NDP

The Acting Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

Order. The hon. member will have five minutes when this debate continues.

The time provided for the consideration of private members' business has now expired and the bill is dropped to the bottom of the order of precedence on the order paper.

Pursuant to order made on Friday, May 7, the House in committee of the whole will now proceed to the consideration of Motion No. 4 under Government Business.

I do now leave the Chair for the House to go into committee of the whole.

(House in committee of the whole on Government Business No. 4, Ms. Denise Savoie in the chair)

ATLANTIC SHELLFISH INDUSTRYGovernment Orders

6:30 p.m.

Conservative

Bev Oda Conservative Durham, ON

moved:

That this committee take note of the importance of the east coast shellfish industry.

ATLANTIC SHELLFISH INDUSTRYGovernment Orders

6:30 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Chair NDP Denise Savoie

Before we begin this debate tonight, I would like to remind hon. members of how the proceedings will unfold. Each member speaking will be allotted 10 minutes for debate, followed by 10 minutes for questions and comments. The debate will end after four hours or when no member rises to speak. Pursuant to the order adopted earlier, the Chair will receive no dilatory motions, no quorum calls and no requests for unanimous consent.

We will now begin the take note debate.

The Minister of Fisheries and Oceans.

ATLANTIC SHELLFISH INDUSTRYGovernment Orders

6:30 p.m.

Egmont P.E.I.

Conservative

Gail Shea ConservativeMinister of Fisheries and Oceans

Madam Chair, I stand today to talk about the importance of the shellfish industries on our east coast and to discuss some of the challenges we face in these important fisheries. My hope is this evening's take note debate can be a valuable and constructive discussion of those serious issues.

I can tell hon. members that I have a very deep understanding of the importance of these fisheries to our communities, because my own hometown, like many others, relies heavily on shellfish. For better or for worse, I am never very far from talk about shellfish. I have also devoted a great deal of my time as fisheries minister to working on many levels to address some of the difficulties facing these vital industries.

To first put this in perspective, shellfish fisheries make up 85% of the total value of all landings in Atlantic Canada. In 2009 this represented $1.4 billion flowing into communities across five provinces, providing thousands of employment opportunities in fishing and processing sectors.

The largest of the shellfish fisheries is of course lobster. There are 41 lobster fishing areas on the east coast and most of the harvest occurs close to shore, usually within 15 kilometres. There is also an offshore fishery that harvests in the deep basins and outer banks off southwestern Nova Scotia, about 90 kilometres from shore. The harvesting sector is made up of approximately 10,000 licensed harvesters, with each participant restricted to fishing in a specific lobster fishing area, which is generally next to the participant's home port.

The lobster fishery has one of the longest histories of fisheries regulations in Canada. Many of the management measures in place today date back over a century. The inshore lobster fishery is managed by effort control. This means limits are set on the number of licences, length of fishing seasons and number of fishing days and traps. Conservation measures involving minimum size limits and the production of egg-bearing females are used. Lobster fishing seasons are designated for each area and they are staggered to protect summer moults. Output control, such as total allowable catch, is used for the offshore fishery. This fishery is open year round and its total allowable catch has remained unchanged since it was established.

Lobster is Canada's most valuable seafood export and our primary export market is the United States. However, more than 59 countries from all corners of the globe enjoy lobster harvested in Canadian waters. Given the industry is highly reliant on foreign markets, it was greatly affected by last year's global economic downturn. I am proud to say that our government was there to help our lobster fishermen during these difficult times. We invested $10 million last year in marketing support for the industry, $8.5 million in short-term support and an additional $50 million in long-term support, designed to restructure the fishery for future sustainability.

The second most valuable shellfish is crab, specifically snow crab. Canada is the world's largest producer of snow crab, accounting for about two-thirds of the global supply. In 2009 almost 80% of all snow crab exports from Canada went to the United States. China and Japan are also major markets.

There are 32 crab fishing areas in Canada spanning four geographic regions: the northern Gulf of St. Lawrence, the southern Gulf of St. Lawrence, east and southwest Nova Scotia, and Newfoundland and Labrador. There are just over 4,000 licence holders across these regions. The annual crab harvest is managed on the basis of total allowable catches that are established through the development of an integrated fisheries management plan for each of the four geographic areas. Licence holders are allocated a specific tonnage of crab and a maximum number of traps.

Snow crab stocks are naturally variable and cyclical. Regardless of fishing activity, crab populations have periods of abundance followed by periods of decline.

As most here will know, our snow crab fishery in the southern gulf is currently at the bottom of its natural cycle and, for conservation purposes, reductions in the total allowable catch needed to be made this year. This is never an easy decision for a fisheries minister to make, but it was necessary to ensure the stock remains healthy into the future.

I have also instructed my department to provide as much flexibility as possible this year to help reduce costs to harvesters by allowing them to combine their operations for the season.

My department's science has advised that the outlook for this stock in 2012 is positive if we use caution in the meantime. Therefore, I remain hopeful this stock will continue to play an important role for the Atlantic Canadian economy in the future.

The species that has experienced the biggest growth in the past decade, particularly off the coast of Newfoundland and Labrador, is the shrimp fishery. East coast shrimp was also the first Canadian fishery to attain eco-certification by the Marine Stewardship Council as being sustainable. We are very proud of this development because eco-certification will be both an important challenge and an opportunity for our fisheries in the future.

Canada is the world's largest supplier of cold water shrimp. The cooked and peeled product, also known as shell-off, is a very valuable export for Canada. It is marketed primarily to Denmark, Japan, the Russian Federation and the United Kingdom, with major markets also in the United States and Europe. Offshore frozen at sea products are sold primarily to Russian and Asian markets. Combined, the export value for shrimp in 2009 was almost $330 million.

The final fishery that contributes significantly to the overall value of landings in shellfish is scallop. Although scallops are found in adjacent waters in most provinces, the most important fishery takes place offshore, although still within Canada's 200 mile limit. The offshore scallop fishery is managed through the use of geographical zones ranging from St. Pierre Bank off Newfoundland to Georges Bank off southwest Nova Scotia. The primary markets for sea scallops are the United States and several members of the European Union, with an export value of close to $100 million.

I am also pleased to announce that on March 25, 2010 the eastern Canada offshore sea scallop fishery received Marine Stewardship Council certification. This is the first scallop fishery in North America to receive this eco-certification and put this fishery on very solid ground to compete in the international market. Access to international markets is essential to Canada's fish and seafood industry, as 85% of its production is exported.

In 2010 the European Union introduced a new regulation which requires exporting countries to provide catch certificates attesting that marine fish and seafood products are legally harvested. That is why the government provided $7.2 million over two years in budget 2010 to support the DFO Catch Certification Office. This office will certify that Canadian seafood exports are legally harvested, ensuring that the Canadian fish and seafood industry maintains access to our second largest export destination.

From this brief description of these fisheries, I am sure members can appreciate the important role they play in communities on our eastern shores.

As I have briefly outlined, these industries are highly valuable, yet face challenges brought about by international market fluctuations, changing market demands, and natural changes in biomass cycles.

I look forward to tonight's debate and to a healthy and frank discussion on these important industries.

ATLANTIC SHELLFISH INDUSTRYGovernment Orders

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE

Madam Chair, I certainly sympathize with the minister but it is unfortunate that again the government has put us in a situation that is devastating to a fishery on the east coast of Canada. People spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to get into this industry and to have the likes of this happen is disgraceful.

There has been a 63% drop in the total allowable catch. There has been a total mismanagement of the fishery. A boat can catch 27,000 pounds, down from 58,000 pounds. The snow crab draw is important for the inshore fishery in Atlantic Canada. The lobster fishery that is having such great difficulty is down to 28 allotments. How unfortunate it is. This is another slap in the face for the inshore fishery in eastern Canada.

What is the minister going to do for the people involved in the fishery? What is the government going to do for the people working in the plants, the people who depend on the snow crab fishery for employment? How are these people going to make a living? What programs is the government going to put in place so that these people can have a decent life?

I also would like the minister to explain how the people involved in the snow crab fishery, who have spent such large sums of money, can survive today with the likes of this total mismanagement and such a devastating slap in the face to their economy.

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6:40 p.m.

Conservative

Gail Shea Conservative Egmont, PE

Madam Chair, I will tell the House what would be a slap in the face to the industry. It would be mismanagement enough to allow overfishing and actually fishing out the resource.

What we are doing is protecting the future for the fishermen's children and grandchildren.

As I said, this was not a decision that was taken lightly, but I can say that these decisions are based on science. If we look back to what happened to the cod fishery in Newfoundland, we should have been making more decisions based on science. We cannot just look after today.

I know that this is causing a lot havoc for a lot of people and they are trying to cope.

I can tell the hon. member that last October the federal government transferred labour market agreement and labour market development agreement funds to the province and it has the flexibility to assist the people who are currently out of work.

There is not a big crab processing sector on Prince Edward Island, but some people no doubt will be affected. We have talked to many of the financial institutions. In a lot of cases, provinces are financing enterprises and they have been flexible in their repayment terms because they realize that people are seeing some hard times in this fishery sector.

ATLANTIC SHELLFISH INDUSTRYGovernment Orders

6:40 p.m.

Bloc

Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Madam Chair, I can see that the minister cares and that she is sincere. But this is a case of once bitten, twice shy. There was a program to support the lobster fishery, but the money spent added up to barely 60% of the expected amount. Either the criteria or the planning fell short, or both.

The crab fishery is in crisis, and that is affecting fishers, their helpers, factory workers and communities. Let us not forget that the quota was cut by 63%. That percentage applies to Quebec's economy and all affected maritime provinces. I had an opportunity to ask several questions about that. The answers that I have received to date suggest that there is no government assistance plan. This is happening now. It started several days ago—several weeks even. It is almost over. Plant workers are in danger of losing their jobs over the next few days, perhaps this weekend.

How does the government plan to help the helpers and plant workers who are feeling the effects of this crisis? I have not heard the federal government say anything about a plan to help these people.

ATLANTIC SHELLFISH INDUSTRYGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Gail Shea Conservative Egmont, PE

Madam Chair, any fish stocks can fluctuate due to any number of reasons. The government cannot be expected to compensate people because of a fluctuation in fish stocks. It would be never ending. There is never any guarantee of availability of fish. That is why they call it fish. That is why science is so important: to protect the future of this industry.

What we have done for those fishers is we have tried to assist them to decrease their input costs. We have allowed for flexibility, options around being flexible where they could buddy up. They could fish together. Two or three of them could fish together. It would decrease their input costs and maximize the returns to them.

I will say again that these decisions are based on science. Our science is always subject to a public peer review and a consultation process with fishers. The fishers were consulted on this science and this is the result of it.

As far as the plant workers go, I have said that every province in Canada has been the recipient of millions of dollars through the labour market agreement and the labour market development agreement. They have flexibility within those agreements to address situations such as these.

ATLANTIC SHELLFISH INDUSTRYGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Madam Chair, I have a question for the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans.

The federal government is responsible for managing the fishery. Last year, the minister agreed to a proposal from fishers to maintain crab quotas. Today, those quotas are down 63%, which is a disaster for a community. The minister seems to be saying that that is not her responsibility. The government seems to be washing its hands of the problems.

I asked the minister a question. I asked her what the government planned to do about the plant workers, fishers and communities. She said her job was to protect the fishery and the fish and to manage the sea. She said she was not responsible for the workers.

With the cuts to the employment insurance program, New Brunswick alone is losing $270 million a year. We have received $143 million. The minister said she was not responsible for the workers; the Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development was.

I have the same question as my Bloc Québécois colleague. What does the Conservative government plan to do to help fish plant workers? After Friday, 2,500 people will be out of a job. What does the minister plan to do, because the Minister of Human Resources—

ATLANTIC SHELLFISH INDUSTRYGovernment Orders

6:50 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Chair NDP Denise Savoie

Order, please. The hon. Minister of Fisheries and Oceans.

ATLANTIC SHELLFISH INDUSTRYGovernment Orders

6:50 p.m.

Conservative

Gail Shea Conservative Egmont, PE

Madam Chair, as I have said, this is not an easy decision because a lot of people and workers are affected by it.

I should not have to tell the hon. member this, but fish processing is a provincial responsibility. As a government, we have said that we would work with the province to deal with those who are affected to ensure we get some type of program there to help them.

Under the labour market agreement and the labour market development agreement, $245 million has gone to the Government of New Brunswick to assist people who are in this type of situation. Other programs are available under HRSDC.

Yes, I did say that fish processing does not come under DFO. It is a responsibility of the province. It does not mean I do not take responsibility for this decision. I do because I am concerned about the future of this fishery.

ATLANTIC SHELLFISH INDUSTRYGovernment Orders

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Madam Chair, there is no doubt that this industry in eastern Canada is in crisis. The history or the evolution of this crisis comes on the back of the 1990s' groundfish cuts and declines.

Where groundfish fishermen once found themselves in peril, there was some light at the end of the tunnel for some involved in the shellfish industries. Lobster, crab and shrimp soon supplanted in landed value and export value some of the losses that occurred in the groundfish industry.

Today, however, we have a very bleak situation. Groundfish never did recover, and the light at the end of the tunnel offered by the shellfish sector is now a dim and fading light. We have resource cuts and we have significant economic pressures on price. This is contributing to factors which are creating unparalleled poverty in many communities and regions throughout Atlantic Canada and Quebec.

The minister spoke relatively eloquently on certain aspects of her duty. What she did not actually describe, however, was that she has failed not only in her duty to protect fish, but also in her duty to protect fishermen. She says that there is always a cause or a concern that fish populations fluctuate. There is no cause and no predictability to it. According to her, it just sometimes happens.

Unfortunately, fishermen know the difference. What they want is leadership. They want a minister who is capable of providing that leadership, not only for the good and easy decisions of increasing quotas but also for the decisions of when they need to be cut.

Specifically, there is a situation in the southern gulf of St. Lawrence where, amazingly, 63% of the quota was cut in just one season. Fishermen are scratching their heads. Plant workers are just amazed. Provincial governments are aghast at the fact that a 63% cut had to occur in one season.

They are not against cuts. They are not afraid of the tough decision. However, what they know, because they apply a factor called common sense, is that a cut of 63% in one year was not manufactured in one year. It was created over a series of years with which leadership and management should have dealt. That got blatantly exposed.

While the minister may say to herself and to others, whoever might try to listen, that this was just a circumstance beyond her control, Department of Fisheries and Oceans shellfish scientist, Marc Lanteigne, who works in Moncton, told the real story on CBC New Brunswick. He said:

The decline has been quite dramatic over the last few years and this is why the management aspect of that fishery has had to make some difficult decisions.

The Department of Fisheries and Oceans own scientists have been saying that they have been providing information to the minister that populations have been in decline over the last few years and this is why the management aspect of that fishery has had to make some very difficult decisions this year. These are the minister's own officials.

What that is saying to each and every one of us is this stock of southern gulf crab has been in decline and scientists have been advising the minister that it has been in decline for several years and the minister has not exercise her fiduciary responsibility to do something about it.

It is all well and good to raise quotas when it is easy to do so. However, the minister's responsibility was to provide ease to the industry by doing what was right when it was required.

Had quotas been cut on an incremental basis, as suggested by science, we would not see a 63% cut in just one year. We would not see an industry in turmoil today. What we would see is an industry that was capable of adjusting over the course of time to the realities of its industry. That is not the case we are seeing right now.

Then we have the turmoil the minister caused in area 23 and area 24 on the east coast of Nova Scotia and Cape Breton. A management plan was put in place in 2005 with the consensus and co-operation with the entire industry, not necessarily the agreement of the entire industry, whereby the quota would be shared on a fifty-fifty split. What did the minister do in 2009? She tore up that management plan.

The management plan said that as soon as the resource went over 9,700 tonnes, an agreement was struck that there would be a split of the quota on a fifty-fifty basis between the traditional fleet and the core company fleet. That quota went over 9,700 tonnes. The threshold was reached.

What did the Department of Fisheries and Oceans say on February 18, 2009, one month before the minister announced her plan? It said:

It is expected that due to the strong recruitment, a TAC exceeding 9700t may be approved in 2009, thus triggering the permanent 50%:50% sharing agreement recommended by the Advisory Panel on Access and Allocation...

This letter went to every crab industry stakeholder in area 23 and area 24, issued by none other than the acting director of DFO for eastern Nova Scotia, Ms. Joan Reid. Every member of the crab industry was told by the officials on the ground that the management plan would be enacted on a fifty-fifty basis. One month later, the minister came in and tore up the plans. It is absolutely disgusting. That is not stability for this industry.

Then we have the issue in Newfoundland and Labrador where a very serious problem is occurring because of price and an industry looking to rationalize and restructure itself. There is nothing coming from the minister who has the fiduciary responsibility to set this industry on a proper course. She is the industry minister and the conservation minister for the fishery, but we have nothing.

It strikes me odd that when we have a lobster industry in crisis, there is much fanfare about a $15 million program that is to provide aid for a $1 billion, normally, annual industry to be spread over 10,000 lobster licence holders who are spread over five eastern Canadian provinces: Quebec, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, P.E.I., Newfoundland and Labrador. That $15 million some may consider a significant amount of money. To put it in perspective, that is for 10,000 fishermen.

Hon. members opposite are saying that is $15 million more than what we provided. What they are saying right now is that when prices of lobster were at $6.50 a pound in 2005, we should have been subsidizing the lobster industry. However, the industry was in crisis in 2009 when prices were at $3 a pound. They were at $6.50 a pound in 2005. Now when they hit $3 a pound in 2009, a $15 million program is provided, and the reaction from the industry is that this will not be enough.

When the eligibility criteria was unveiled for the program, the reaction from the industry was that this would never be spent. The eligibility criteria was so discriminatory, exclusive to the real needs of the industry, the industry knew that the money would never be spent because nobody would be eligible. Guess what? Only 50% of the $15 million was spent, $8.5 million was disbursed to the fishermen and the government got an additional $1 million back from them anyway because it was all taxable. Therefore, of the $15 million program that was supposed to support them, only half was spent.

I would like to know if the hon. minister would actually see fit to take the $7.5 million that went back to the government treasury and introduce a program, at least this year, and augment that which needs to be done for the people of New Brunswick, P.E.I., Nova Scotia, Newfoundland and Labrador and Quebec. I do not think we will ever see that happen.

Then we have the shrimp fishery. In shrimp fishing area 6 on the northeast coast of Newfoundland and southern Labrador, we are seeing a rather similar circumstance occurring in the southern gulf of St. Lawrence. There is a recommendation now for a 30% cut in one season. That tells me one of two things. Either scientists were not doing their job over a succession of several years, or scientists were providing advice to the minister and she just failed to accept it and failed to act on it. To have a 30% cut in one year means either the stock was not being monitored properly on a year to year basis over the last number of years and suddenly a 30% cut was required.

What we have is an industry in crisis because the leader of the crisis is the leader of the fishery.

ATLANTIC SHELLFISH INDUSTRYGovernment Orders

7 p.m.

Egmont P.E.I.

Conservative

Gail Shea ConservativeMinister of Fisheries and Oceans

Madam Chair, the hon. member went on about how I have ignored the fishery for years. Well, I have not been here for years, so I could not have ignored it for years.

As everyone knows, crab is cyclical. I have a couple of questions for the member. Price is so volatile in crab in particular and in shrimp. When things were good and the price was good, lots of new entrants made their way into the crab fishery.

Under the member's government's watch, could he tell me how many new entrants were allowed into the crab fishery? If he were minister today and science advice told him that in order to protect the future of that fishery so that it can recover, the quota needs to be cut by 63%, would the member cut it, yes or no, or would he do what has been done in the past and ignore science advice for political reasons?

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7 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Madam Chair, I opened my remarks with the fact that sharing was done to be able to provide the benefits of the resource for the benefit of as many as possible with consultation from the industry.

In fact, in the southern Gulf of St. Lawrence, for example, approximately 400 new entrants were added to the fishery.

The minister has actually just said that not only does she agree with that decision but that she will provide stability to the industry for the next five years, not remove anybody from the fishery and will not change any quota sharing structure. She agrees with the decision and she cannot deny that.

The minister is also saying that tough decisions have to be taken. If I were minister and science suddenly came to me with a recommendation for a cut of 63%, the first thing I would do is go to my department and my deputy minister to find out where these scientists were when this was happening.

The quota cannot be reduced. The fishable biomass cannot be reduced by 63% in one year unless a nuclear submarine blew up in the southern Gulf of St. Lawrence spreading radioactive waste.

What happened here was that the minister was asleep at the switch. She did not ask her scientists to ensure they were providing proper advice or, the scientists, over a series of years, were providing that advice and she failed to act on it.

She asked whether I would allow new entrants. We were the ones who allowed new entrants. It is not the number of fishermen who catch the fish, it is the amount of fish that is taken out of the water. The minister does not understand that basic conservation principle. The number of fishermen in a fishery do not affect the stock. It is the amount of fish that is taken out of the water that affects the stock. We better get that straight or we better get a brand new minister.

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7 p.m.

Bloc

Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Madam Chair, my question is the following: does the hon. member agree that we are more concerned with the major impact this is having on the communities than with the resources or the precise quotas for today or anything like that?

We went through a similar experience in the agriculture sector, the automobile industry and the banking and financial sectors recently. The banks were to blame for the financial crisis we went through and yet the banks, the automobile industry and people in agriculture all received help. In my opinion, there is no reason not to have an aid package to offset the impact on communities.

I quite liked the part when he mentioned that just before the 63% cut there was a drop in prices. This also had a major impact on the communities. These things add up. It is worse than one can imagine. That is why the impact felt today is even greater, because the prices were already quite low.

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7:05 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Madam Chair, the hon. member has it right in so many ways. Canada has a $1 billion annual lobster industry. Every year, year after year, on a normal basis, the lobster industry would generate for us all $1 billion when the price was at its normal level. Now we see the price reduced, especially last year.

The answer to that crisis, caused by the global economic crisis, was to provide $15 million to assist a normal $1 billion industry. The minister's response was to provide 1.5% of one year's gross of that industry. That does not seem very fair. It does not seem fair when we consider the impact on communities and regions. We could have done better. Of that $15 million, only half the money was ever spent, and $7.5 million were returned to the federal government, not in the hands of those who need it but in the hands of the government for debt reduction or whatever. That is where it is.

We need an economic strategy that meets the needs of an industry that is vital to this region.

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7:05 p.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Madam Speaker, although I only became a member of Parliament in 1997, I was involved when problems occurred in the fishing industry in 1988, when quotas were lowered not to 7,700 but to 7,000 metric tonnes. That was under Brian Mulroney's government.

At that time, the government did not say that it was up to the province to take care of everyone. The government said it had to be done to protect the resource for the future and introduced a program for everyone, for the fishermen and plant workers, in order to try to manage the crisis. The same thing happened with the closure of the cod fishery in 1993. Programs were established.

Does my Liberal colleague think that the government is washing its hands of this crisis? Last year the fishermen made a recommendation to the government. The government listened, but this year it is cutting their subsidies by 63%, saying that they need to sort out their own problems. This year it will do what it has to, but after that, they have to deal with their problems themselves.

There seems to be a lack of leadership from the federal government and that is what bothers me. That is what is bothering our fishermen, that is what is bothering our plant workers and that is what is bothering plant owners and our communities. It is as though the federal government is saying that it is too bad—

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7:05 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Chair NDP Denise Savoie

The hon. member for Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte.

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7:05 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Madam Chair, it is even worse than that. It is not even that the government is abandoning its responsibility. It is putting the responsibility on those who did not cause this.

What will the province of New Brunswick do? Where is it in all of this? It is responsible for plants. I think that speaks to exactly how bankrupt the government is in its federal-provincial relationships, as well as in understanding its jurisdiction and its responsibilities.

If there are no fish to catch and there is mismanagement of the fish that are to be caught, then fishermen cannot fish anything and, if fishermen do not have anything to fish, the consequential flow is that plant workers do not have anything to process and they, too, lose their jobs. What does the government do? It simply says that the province has to deal with it. The government caused it through mismanagement and now the stock needs to be cut this way. It has sole responsibility for this.

The Province of New Brunswick does not have one ounce of jurisdiction over what the quotas will be, who catches the quotas, where they land or what they do with it. The only level of government that decides those questions is the federal Government of Canada. What is the answer to the people, the government, the plant workers and the fishermen of New Brunswick? It is to talk to the fisheries minister of New Brunswick because the federal government has nothing to do with them. The same sweeps right across the entire region, whether it be Quebec, New Brunswick, P.E.I., Nova Scotia or Newfoundland and Labrador.

The federal government now is saying that if fishermen want a rationalization program, a publicly-funded licensed retirement program, they should talk to the province. The government issued the licence and it can take it away—

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7:10 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Chair NDP Denise Savoie

Resuming debate, the hon. member for Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine.

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7:10 p.m.

Bloc

Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Madam Chair, I will try to use a bit of a metaphor. The Department of Fisheries and Oceans is a huge boat, or perhaps a nice ship, a nice, big ocean liner. The rudder is broken, however, and unfortunately different situations have made this clear. There was the lobster problem last year, and the plan announced in June 2009 for the problems that started in 2008. Eventually we found out that $8.5 million was spent out of $15 million, but we only learned this in February 2010. These dates show that there is a problem somewhere.

The minister and the department acknowledge that there is a problem with the cod and grey seal issues. But nothing has happened for three years. The only one who wins is the grey seal. The seals are fattening themselves up on cod, at the expense of the fishing fleet and at the expense of the communities.

There is also the shrimp issue. Oddly enough, a quota was given to fishers on Prince Edward Island, even though there is no shrimp industry in Prince Edward Island. Oddly enough, the minister is from Prince Edward Island. This is another case of a broken rudder.

I should add that this is unfortunately the case in the crab industry, as well, which is what we are concerned about today. When we hear that this year's crab decision was for conservation reasons, I would simply like the minister to consider the numbers I am about to give. An article published in the Quebec City newspaper Le Soleil talks about the catch rates authorized by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans: in 2006, 41.1%; in 2007, 37%; in 2008, 41.2% and in 2009, last year, 46.7%. So as we can see, ultimately, over the years, the conservation issue has not necessarily been the kick-starter for the department. It seems to have been based on rather flexible rules, perhaps even on geography.

So this year, we ended up with a 63% cut. I think it is worth illustrating what this means for the people of Quebec. The landed value for Quebec was about $50 million in 2008. If I look at earlier figures, it was once much more than that. If we cut 63%, that means $30 million less in landed value. And as we know, those amounts are considerably increased if you add the work done in plants and so on. As we can see, this has a huge impact.

When we hear about resource conservation—that is why I am repeating the figures we have already heard—it is not because of a situation that occurred by accident or very suddenly. We have known in one way or another for as long as I have been in politics. My father was a fisherman, and I already knew a bit about this. We all know very well that the resource fluctuates, that fish move around and that shellfish, especially snow crab, go through cycles. Some numbers are way up, while others are way down. People have been thinking about these questions for many years. We know that, with those numbers, we had a catch rate of about 50% of the biomass. Things were already pretty tough, and we knew we were in the low part of the resource's cycle.

Thus, with respect to conservation, these figures were ignored, the requests by a number of scientists were completely forgotten and we concentrated on one thing. If the catch is abundant, many people will be put to work. It is unfortunate that in 2010 we have ended up with a 63% reduction. However, this could have been avoided; it was preventable, and that is the unfortunate thing about all this. However, we cannot change the past, even though I would like to. We find ourselves in a situation where the minister and the department no longer had a choice. We ended up with this 63% cut.

The person or the group who made the decision to impose this cut and made this announcement has a certain degree of responsibility. I am certain that people in the department knew that this 63% cut would have consequences.

Almost everyone expected a 40% or 50% cut. That is what was being bandied about. I asked the minister about it weeks before the decision was made. I suggested figures of 40% or 50%. That was what we were hearing. It was difficult to believe that the cuts would be as high as 63%. We are now living with that decision and the 63% cut has had major repercussions everywhere. I remind members that prices had already been affected significantly. Add to that cuts in the catch and the impact has been even more severe.

Worst of all is what we are hearing from the minister and the department. She seems to be saying that dealing with the impact of the cut is not part of her responsibilities. It is up to the provinces. It is up to Quebec to deal with it. It is up to others to deal with it. I do not believe that. It is a matter of dignity, rigour and responsibility.

I am not attacking the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans personally. I am certain that she is very responsible and concerned but there is a major problem and people everywhere are asking some serious questions. Not only are they asking serious questions, but they also have the answers. They believe that the government does not care in the least about the impact this has on the communities, the fishers and their helpers, and the fish plants.

They say that they gave licence-holders the option to partner so that fishers and companies would not be hit as hard. That is one measure, but it too has an impact. Partnering means fewer employees and fewer helpers on those boats. It does have an impact.

It is unfortunate that this decision about accountability was forced on us. Everyone agrees that people had no choice. I think that the government could have taken action sooner, but what is done is done. The people making decisions like that should be held responsible. They should decide to help people, helpers, fishers, plant workers, municipalities, the provinces and Quebec. If not, fisheries will be treated as though they are in a vacuum.

But that is not how things work. Things do not happen in a vacuum. There is a saying about how when a fish is pulled out of the water, its head is provincial and its tail federal. That sounds odd, but it reflects how responsibilities are shared. There is a constant back and forth between the two. Each is responsible for something, like it or not. When the Department of Fisheries and Oceans makes a decision, it has wide-ranging effects. Unfortunately, this department's rudder is broken. That is becoming increasingly clear.

Take, for example, a press release from May of last year about work in Port-Daniel. That is an area I know very well because that is where I am from. There was an announcement about work that was planned for last year. Now, a year later, that work is still not done.

The government also announced that work was planned for Carleton in 2010. We recently learned that there is some disagreement between Transport Canada and Fisheries and Oceans Canada. They have been unable to reach an agreement. They have reached an impasse in the handover negotiations.

Nobody has a hand on the rudder because the rudder is broken. This is very serious. We have to take responsible action. I believe that a lot of people are watching us tonight, except for those who are watching the hockey game and are worried about it. But people are in this situation, this crisis. That is why I think we need to take responsible action. That is why I am urging the minister and the government to acknowledge their responsibilities and deal with this situation.

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7:20 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Chair NDP Denise Savoie

Questions and comments. The hon. Minister of Fisheries and Oceans.