House of Commons Hansard #45 of the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was industry.

Topics

ATLANTIC SHELLFISH INDUSTRYGovernment Orders

10:05 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Mr. Chair, I appreciate the opportunity to participate in this take note debate. I want to thank the member for Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte for bringing this matter forward for debate. I do appreciate that the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans and other members of government are here to participate and to listen to the remarks made by hon. members here tonight.

I realize that we are talking particularly about the big changes in the total allowable catch, in the southern gulf in particular and that region, but I want to talk for a moment about other aspects of the problems in the snow crab industry and the fishing industry generally, particularly in Newfoundland and Labrador, where there is not, in some of the other areas, such a big change in the total allowable catch, but despite that, there is a significant problem and a significant crisis.

I am a little disturbed to hear the member for Wetaskiwin refer to the annual crisis in the east coast fisheries, partly because he is right. We have had a series of crises in the east coast fisheries. It is not the fault of the people who are in the fishery and it is not because of the fact that the Fisheries Act was first introduced in 1867. The way the member talks, one would not know that there was never an amendment made to the Fisheries Act since 1867 and that somehow that means that not only does it have to be changed, but changed in the way that the government proposed it be changed the last time around. It is no trouble having a review of legislation, but it depends what one wants to do with it.

I want to talk about the fact that what has been causing the crisis in the last couple of years in the east coast fishery, particularly in Newfoundland and Labrador, is a result of the recession that has been taking place, the one that the government denied in the first instance and then claimed to have solved a couple of months later. The fact of the matter is that regardless of what is happening in Canada, and we are seeming to have some turning of the corner here, the reality is that the products that we are talking about, crab, lobster and some high end fish, are really products that are sold in the worldwide market, principally in the United States, Europe and Japan.

What do we see? We see two things.

First, we have fish being purchased mostly in restaurants, a product that is based on the disposable income of people going to restaurants, and when we see the guts taken out of the incomes of Americans, for example, they are still suffering perhaps worse than many Canadians are, but they are the ones upon whom we depend to actually go and buy this product.

The second thing that we see happening is the devaluation by Canadian standards, and we call it a rise in the Canadian dollar but it was actually a devaluation of the U.S. currency, the devaluation of the British pound, the Danish krone, the Japanese yen and the Euro, all devalued in comparison with the Canadian dollar. What does that do? That significantly reduces the incomes of Canadian fishers and subsequently plant workers because the whole market depends upon them.

The crisis that we have is the result of the economic downturn in this particular instance, and the depreciation of other currencies compared to the Canadian dollar, so a reduction of 20% in the market price is just as devastating to them as a reduction in the total allowable catch.

I know the previous speaker is from Wetaskiwin. I was in this House before, 20 years ago, when there used to be an awful lot of debate about the family farm out west and the need to protect the family farm. We do not hear much about that anymore because maybe so many family farms are actually gone and consolidated into larger farms and ranches, and the industrialization of farming out west, but that was a major topic.

It was in fact a long-standing role of the Government of Canada to support farmers with programs when there were droughts, when the prices were low, and when there were significant downturns in the economics of the family farm as a result of either natural or market pressures. The farmers could look to and did look to the Government of Canada for support in those kinds of circumstances.

I do not think we have really seen that to the same extent in the east coast fishery. The treatment seems to be a little different, and perhaps the minister would like to comment on that during the questions and comments period.

We have occasional programs, the kind of programs that the minister is talking about in terms of the lobster fishery. It is not direct support for the people engaged in the industry. We have not used the kind of creativity that is needed to support the industry.

We have seen examples in major disasters, and I would refer to the cod moratorium in Newfoundland in 1992 as a major disaster, where there was a government response in those days. We are not talking about the same kind of devastating circumstances that came with the cod moratorium. Part of the issue had to do with the science at the time, and part of it had to do with overfishing, not only by foreigners, but also by Canadian fleets. There was a significant response by the Government of Canada.

We still think the Government of Canada has a role to play in trying to mitigate against the situation that fishers are facing in the whole of the Atlantic these days because of the recession. We could talk about the infrastructure program. Obviously there are some benefits to communities if there is a small craft harbours program or an infrastructure program for roads or other things. That does not directly engage fishermen in the activity, but it provides some economic activity in the communities. We do need some significant support in these particular circumstances.

We are not satisfied that the government and the minister have aided the industry enough during these difficult economic times. We have seen a major dent in the industry as a result of the recession. We know from our own experience, but also obviously market studies have shown that given the economic recession, people are dealing with significantly tighter household budgets. Disposable income is down. Crab and lobster and other products are seen as a luxury. Eating out at restaurants is seen as a luxury that many families cannot afford. We have that effect of the recession in particular in the areas of the fishery and there needs to be some special programs to deal with that. I understand the macro programs, the economic stimulation generally, but what about programs that directly support this?

While other speakers have talked about the retirement of licences and things like that, there has been long-standing from the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador, along with the fishermen's union, proposals to engage in the program to help older workers leave the industry, leave the fishery and leave the fish plant industry with dignity. The Government of Canada has so far refused, despite repeated requests by the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador and the fishermen's union in Newfoundland to participate in this program. The Government of Canada has declined to do that.

These are some examples of the lack of sufficient support from the Government of Canada for fishers in Atlantic Canada, wherever they may be.

We have heard from the member for Beauséjour and the member for Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte about the inadequacies of the lobster program. I recognize it was a program in which some effort was made, and perhaps as one member suggested, the minister valiantly fought with members in cabinet and tried to get more money from the Minister of Finance and failed. I do not blame the minister totally for this, but her government obviously has to take responsibility for the failure to provide enough support and enough new programs aimed specifically at helping the people who are suffering as a result of this economic downturn.

We have seen it in the auto industry. We have seen it in the forestry industry. As one member said, we did have specific programs for the forestry industry. Where are the specific programs that are going to help with this particular problem that we are seeing all across Newfoundland and Labrador in the existing crisis in the fishery? It is a market crisis. It is a recession crisis. It is directly related to that. We have seen great difficulties in even getting the fishery industry going this year because of negotiation problems particularly related to the market price of fish.

As I say, it is a problem not simply of the reduction in total allowable catch, but that obviously does great harm to the fishing incomes in much of the southern gulf and other areas affected by the catch, but also the reduction in market price and the consequent significant damage to the fishery in Newfoundland and Labrador.

ATLANTIC SHELLFISH INDUSTRYGovernment Orders

10:15 p.m.

Egmont P.E.I.

Conservative

Gail Shea ConservativeMinister of Fisheries and Oceans

Mr. Chair, the member talked about the recession being responsible for where we are now, but what we have been discussing all evening is a reduction in quota. I would have to say that the economic downturn certainly would not have caused the crab to disappear. However, we have to deal with the disappearance.

He talked about different federal government programs to assist the fishery. Although marketing is primarily a function of the industry, there is marketing assistance through CFIA to market different products.

There is one initiative we have brought forward. I will use the lobster industry as an example. What has happened in the lobster industry is that for the most part the internal competition, I believe, kept prices depressed. It was not a highly organized operation. With assistance from the federal government and some of the provinces, the lobster council is being formed in an effort to have the entire industry work together so it can maximize returns to the fishers and the industry.

This is going to take a tremendous effort on everyone's part because it is not something that has worked very well in the past. It seems that the industry is very much dog eat dog and who can get to the top of the pile first and the fishers are suffering because of that.

History shows that fishers have done fair to good. When markets were good and there was an abundance of fish, fishers made a decent living. Unfortunately, now we are in a situation where the markets are depressed and abundance is down at the same time. It is a double whammy for fishers and it is going to be a very difficult year. That being said, it is still not a reason to ignore science because science is what will take us into the next century.

Something we have done in Newfoundland and Labrador is to allow for a buddy-up system, which would allow enterprises to combine. Over the last number of years we have seen the combining of over 200 enterprises. We have actually removed over 200 licences from the water, so there has been some good news in the fishery.

In my mind, the most significant achievement this government has made to assist the fishery has been to extend the capital gains exemptions to fishers. I would ask the member if he agrees with that.

ATLANTIC SHELLFISH INDUSTRYGovernment Orders

10:20 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Mr. Chair, I would have to agree that the capital gains exemption for fishers was a very significant move. It reflects the capital gains exemption for farmers and recognizes that there is an intergenerational change in fishing enterprises similar to farmers. It was long overdue, I have to say, and I congratulate the government for doing that.

The fact that such a program exists recognizes there is some significant capital to be passed on from one generation to another, and that is a good thing. That recognizes there is significant value in a fishing enterprise. The fisheries of old talked about the poor fishermen. We actually have some very well to do fishermen who have enterprises to pass on. They should not be penalized by a capital gains tax. That is a positive thing.

To get back to some of the support for marketing, that is not a bad thing, but better arrangements for marketing and better marketing ability does not solve the price problem in the short term. We have had a significant drop in price, as much as 20%. That is significant and marketing support is not going to fix that right now.

We can change co-operation marketing or, as suggested, internal competition problems that need to be fixed. These are things the government is working on and things that other governments have worked on in the past. However, we have a price problem right now and that is a short-term problem that we are hoping the government can address.

ATLANTIC SHELLFISH INDUSTRYGovernment Orders

10:20 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Mr. Chair, the member captured a lot of the hope, but as well, all of the frustrations in Newfoundland and Labrador and in eastern Canada about where the fishery is going. I think what is being met here is a sense that we need some direction and we need a sense of leadership. The leadership is coming from within the fishing communities but we are not necessarily seeing it from within the Department of Fisheries and Oceans.

One of the problems with the buddying up system, to which the minister just referred, is that the department does not actually believe in it. I had an opportunity in the standing committee recently to question the assistant deputy minister, Dave Bevan, about whether the department was committed to continuing with the buddying up system. His reply was that the department was not because it did not contribute to rationalization but contributes to people staying in the fishery.

What is wrong with that? I fail to understand why we cannot do things to support our fishers in making a viable industry out of this. Buddying up does not take any more fish out of the water. It is the same as allowing new entrants into a fishery does not take any more fish out of the water if they are simply dividing an existing quota and dividing it more fairly.

A few times tonight the government said that it agrees with that and a few times tonight it said that it disagrees with that. We are not really getting a coherent, clear picture on where it stands on it.

However, I will ask the member for St. John's East this question. Is there a certain importance, a certain relevance to consistency in the decision-making process? I stood here tonight and said that the minister had made a good decision by making the new entrants to the southern gulf fishery feel very stable and comfortable in the fact that they would have a place in that fishery for many years to come.

I then asked if it was the right thing to do the same for those involved in the northern shrimp fishery or should those who are relatively recent new entrants into the fishery feel very insecure. The answer I got back from the government was that they should feel very insecure. That, to me, creates a problem.

Does the member for St. John's East believe it is important to have consistency in the management of our Canadian fisheries?

ATLANTIC SHELLFISH INDUSTRYGovernment Orders

10:25 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Mr. Chair, the member talked about the stability being provided to the new entrants in the lobster fishery. What is important for fishermen for the long term, especially when they are investing heavily in enterprise, is stability. We talked about the capital gains tax exemption, for example. That is great as long as they do not lose their boat because of the costs of gasoline and all the expenses that go into it. If the market price is so low or the total allowable catch is so low that they cannot make it and they lose your boat, the capital gains tax exemption will not help them. It is a good thing but we need stability and part of stability is depending on the Government of Canada playing a role in ensuring fishers are capable of having a stable income over time.

There are variations, obviously, from year to year. We are not expecting everything to be exact. However, part of stability depends on consistency of government, on leadership from government and on knowing that when times are particularly tough for reasons beyond the control of fishers and plant workers that there will be assistance available so they can stay in the fishery and be there the next year or the year after when that market comes back. That does involve the kind of commitment that we have not seen or have seen in bits and pieces from time to time, programs that are designed for one thing trying to shoehorn into something else. What is needed is directed programs to support the fishing industry.

ATLANTIC SHELLFISH INDUSTRYGovernment Orders

10:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Assistant Deputy Chair Conservative Barry Devolin

The hon. parliamentary secretary will have three minutes.

ATLANTIC SHELLFISH INDUSTRYGovernment Orders

10:25 p.m.

South Shore—St. Margaret's Nova Scotia

Conservative

Gerald Keddy ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of International Trade

Mr. Chair, three minutes is not a lot of time to address all the problems in the fishery and to address a number of statements that have been made tonight. Some of those statements are try to correct the record.

This debate was about crab. It then expanded into the shellfish industry. There is a large shellfish industry, much of which we have not even addressed tonight. Certainly, for the lobster industry, I cannot stress enough the need to modernize the Fisheries Act and the industry. Fishermen who live in my riding are fishing a lobster licence on a 35-foot boot. They would sooner fish that licence on a 45-foot boat or a 55-foot boat, but they cannot because the act does not allow them to.

They have a groundfish licence. They are multi-species fishermen, which we have encouraged them to be. Their groundfish licence is on a 35-foot boat and because they cannot afford two boats, they also have to fish lobster on that boat. They fish 150 kilometres offshore. The previous government would not change that act. We cannot change it without their support.

However, that is not really the point. I want to finish on Tim Rhyno's licence. His name has been brought up a couple of times in the House by members in absolutely nothing less than a drive-by smear. He owns his licence legally, morally and ethically. The reality is the story has never been told.

Fist, two people did the science fishery. Tim Rhyno was one. The other person got a licence. Second, there were 17 licences granted in 2003. The first person got his licence. The second licence was put off until 2004. That was Tim Rhyno's licence. What happened to that licence? The minister of fisheries at the time, Minister Thibeault, granted the first person a licence and told Mr. Rhyno, in writing, that he would get his licence the following year.

The following year came and the following year went. Somewhere or another on the other side of the House in the Liberal Party, there was political interference on that licence and he was not granted it. I do not know exactly who interfered, but I have my suspicions. I think we can take a look at the people who have been asking the questions.

Further to that, it has been said in this place that he did not win his appeal. That is absolutely false. On July 8, 2005, he went to the appeal board. Mr. Rhyno won the appeal, yet again, it was recommended by the minister that the licence not be allowed. My point is simple. The individual has been used unfairly. He has asked to come to committee. The committee asked for him to come and then withdrew its request.

I suggest the committee bring Mr. Rhyno to committee, not in a kangaroo court in Sydney or any other place, but in Ottawa—

ATLANTIC SHELLFISH INDUSTRYGovernment Orders

10:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Assistant Deputy Chair Conservative Barry Devolin

It being 10:30 p.m., pursuant to Standing Order 53(1), the committee will rise and I will leave the chair.

(Government Business No. 4 reported)

ATLANTIC SHELLFISH INDUSTRYGovernment Orders

10:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

Accordingly the House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 10 a.m. pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).

(The House adjourned at 10:30 p.m.)