Debates of Oct. 18th, 2011

Linda Duncan Edmonton—Strathcona, AB

Mr. Chair, I appreciate the hon. member's support for Canada speaking out and intervening to see greater democracy in the Ukraine.

The clear definition of democracy is the separation between the judiciary and the legislative and administrative arms.

I wonder if the hon. member could respond to a question I have asked some of the other members. It is reported that the Ukrainian Canadian Congress has called upon the government to make the condition that Congress supports pursuing a trade agreement with Ukraine that will benefit both this country and Ukraine if a good agreement is negotiated and we can maintain good trade into the future. However, it has have asked that this agreement be contingent upon the Ukrainian government committing to respecting democracy and human rights.

Could the member speak to whether his government supports that this be a term of any trade agreement?

Peter Van Loan York—Simcoe, ON

Mr. Chair, I am pleased to see some interest in the idea of a trade agreement with Ukraine from the opposition NDP. Traditionally it does not support trade agreements.

When we undertook those trade negotiations, and I was minister of international trade at that time, we consulted broadly in the Ukrainian community. It indicated its strong support for this kind of economic engagement. It believed that a free trade agreement would help further enhance the freedom and the prosperity of the people of the Ukraine, creating greater economic opportunities for them, as well as for the Ukrainian community in Canada, which would be best positioned to take advantage of the trading opportunities in that relationship.

We have continued to consult closely with the Ukrainian community to ensure that they are supportive of the ongoing process of negotiating free trade. We share many of the same concerns they have, hence the communications we have made in terms of our concerns with the erosion of democracy.

Needless to say, progress toward a free trade agreement has not been as rapid under the current regime in Ukraine as we had hoped it would, and as it was previously, but we will continue to move carefully forward in a fashion that will enhance freedom for people in both countries and economic opportunities in both countries.

Jim Karygiannis Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Mr. Chair, back in the late 1980s, early 1990s, Ukrainian Canadians demonstrated outside the Soviet Union embassy and the consulates general. They were demonstrating because they wanted a free and democratic Ukraine.

Euphoria happened when Ukraine moved into what seemed to be a democracy. There was the Orange Revolution. Now what we have today is the Ukrainian diaspora going back to demonstrate, but not against the Soviet Union embassy and the consulates general, but against their own embassies and consulates general.

I have been told of by my Ukrainian friends that they are seeing the hands of Russia starting to be engaged in Ukraine and play an important role. As they were saying then, “Russia, keep your hands away from Ukraine”, they are starting to say right now “Mr. Putin, keep your hands away from Ukraine”.

Has there been any conversations on the government side that it might want to send a strong message to Russia to stop meddling in the Ukraine?

Peter Van Loan York—Simcoe, ON

Mr. Chair, we have made it clear throughout that, whether it comes to issues like NATO accession or any other issues of international relationships or their standing, no country should have a veto over the choices that the people make to choose freedom. We have said that with regard to NATO accession for Ukraine and for Georgia and indeed we will say that in every forum.

The member for Scarborough—Agincourt brings to mind the ages when we used to protest against the Soviet Union for freedom of these captive peoples. I myself come from an Estonian background. I am part of a community that did exactly that. In fact, the reason I am here in the House of Commons today as a Conservative. I remember seeing, as we were fighting for freedom for those captive people, the prime minister of the day, Pierre Trudeau, palling it up with Kosygin and Brezhnev, the Soviet leaders. He did not have that commitment to freedom and human rights that we believed we were fighting for so strongly.

That is why we have to be vigilant that the era of Kosygin, Brezhnev or Stalin or any of those Soviet leaders that kept those people in prison. Crimes against humanity that were not sufficiently condemned by those in the other parties always will be on this side and we will fight for freedom and stand for it four-square. That is why we are proud to be doing what we are doing today for freedom in the Ukraine.

Peggy Nash Parkdale—High Park, ON

Mr. Chair, the Ukrainian Canadian Congress has said that given concerns about Ukraine's drift towards authoritarian rule and limitations to freedoms, politically motivated prosecutions, curtailment of academic freedom and freedom of assembly, media censorship and harassment, and politically motivated selective justice, the UCC believes that there is a need to ensure that the Canada-Ukraine free trade agreement includes provisions guaranteeing human rights protection as a precondition to concluding such an agreement.

Does the member opposite agree with that statement?

Peter Goldring Edmonton East, AB

Mr. Chair, there are many scenarios that we could engage in. Perhaps the trade agreements could have wording, but it would be difficult to have those words have full and defined meanings. I don't know; I have not been involved before in trade agreement writing.

However, there are other things we can do. One is to have a meeting of the friendship committee that the member is a part of. The member has been with me on election monitoring in Ukraine. This also, on side visits, engages some of the parliamentarians as well. There are many things that we can do. We are calling this issue forward in the foreign affairs committee as well.

Some of the other suggestions that have come forward are interesting and should be considered as well. I agree totally, as has been said on all sides of the House, that this is a commitment we all have a part of and one on which we come together politically as one in our effort to have this issue heard. If we make this issue roundly, firmly and vocally, I believe there are people there listening. I believe the president is listening.

Bob Dechert Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs

Mr. Chair, I would like to acknowledge the work that my hon. colleague has done over many years to promote the cause of democracy in Ukraine. He is a tribute to all democracy-loving Canadians, and especially those of Ukrainian heritage. The member will know that the Minister of Foreign Affairs has made some important comments on the Tymoshenko matter. I will read one quote. He said on October 11:

Canada is troubled by the manner in which the arrest, prosecution and conviction of Yulia Tymoshenko were carried out by Ukrainian authorities. The apparent political bias and arbitrary prosecution in this and other cases hamper Ukraine's democratic development. A legitimate and active opposition is a vital part of a vibrant and effective democracy.

There are clear signs that the court proceedings fall far short of internationally recognized norms of fairness, transparency and due process.

I wonder if the hon. member could comment on those statements by the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

Peter Goldring Edmonton East, AB

Mr. Chair, it is troubling for all parliamentarians. My understanding of the issue is that she was in office, and whether she has an implied immunity or an actual immunity, for someone who is in a law-making, decision-making process while they are in politics to be subject to criminal charges when they leave politics runs counter to the understanding of parliamentary democracy as we know it.

Who would want to come into a political decision-making role if they were to be subject forever and for all time to someone's reading of a rule from the law books when the laws themselves may be confused? In this case she not only was tried by that law, but convicted by that law and imprisoned by that law. What person would want to follow in those shoes and take up those reins of power under those circumstances?

Anne-Marie Day Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Mr. Chair, I would like to thank the hon. member for his speech. Canada plays an important role on the international stage in terms of supporting democracy and human rights. What diplomatic pressure is the Government of Canada putting on Ukraine regarding human rights?

Peter Goldring Edmonton East, AB

Mr. Chair, Ukraine is a sovereign country, but what we can do, and what we are are doing at this very moment, is what I would call strong suggestions of action. This is one method of doing it.

The reporting from this Parliament is already taking place in Ukraine. The reporting for our committee meeting coming up on a study on Ukraine has been in the Kyiv Post today, so these different actions are having an effect and they are being heard there. In fact, we are having our voices and our disappointment heard in Kiev.

Peggy Nash Parkdale—High Park, ON

Mr. Chair, it is a privilege to be part of this debate this evening on the important topic of current events in Ukraine.

This happens to be the 120th anniversary of Ukrainians in Canada. This year we have been celebrating the incredible legacy of that 120 years of Ukrainian achievements in building our country. We are proud of our special relationship with Ukraine.

My riding of Parkdale--High Park is home to the largest Ukrainian street festival throughout North America. We have a large Ukrainian community. It is home to the Taras H. Shevchenko Museum.

Many of us have been to Ukraine, as my hon. colleague mentioned, as election observers, including in 2004 in what was called the Orange Revolution. We saw the incredible determination and passion of Ukrainians for democracy and human rights. It was inspiring. People camped out for months at the Nezalezhnosti Square in downtown Kiev in Ukraine.They inspired the country in their quest for democracy after tainted elections had occurred. Those of us who had the privilege of being there as election observers saw the genuine desire of the majority of Ukrainians to have free and fair elections. Many people said to us that they just wanted a normal country. They wanted to see the normalization of Ukraine.

While Ukraine is an old and historic country with a long history, it has only 20 years of modern independence. There is real concern that the country is slipping backward.

The manner in which the arrest, persecution and conviction of Yulia Tymoshenko was carried out by Ukrainian authorities is deeply troubling. With the sentencing of the former prime minister to seven years in prison, the Ukrainian government under President Yanukovych has reached an alarming new low in the deterioration of democracy and the rule of law in modern Ukraine. The apparent political bias and arbitrary prosecution in this and other cases hamper Ukraine's democratic development. A legitimate and active opposition is a vital part of a vibrant and effective democracy, as we see in the House.

There are clear signs that the court proceedings that occurred fell far short of internationally recognized norms of fairness, transparency and due process. The verdict was the product of a politically motivated trial that did not meet international standards and seemed aimed at silencing a member of the opposition a year before elections.

We believe that a fair and independent judiciary is an essential branch of democratic governance. As vice-chair of the Canada-Ukraine Parliamentary Friendship Group, I join with my colleagues in urging Ukraine to strengthen its judicial independence and capacity.

EU officials have said that they would like to see both Mrs. Tymoshenko and several others, her jailed cabinet ministers, released by Ukrainian authorities before signing a new association agreement with Kiev that marks the first step to membership in the EU. It is hard to see how any agreement with the EU can be signed as long as Kiev rejects a core value of European democracy, namely that elections, not courts, are where politicians settle their differences.

This debate is about far more than the fate of one Ukrainian leader. It really goes directly to the question of whether the Ukrainian government respects basic human rights and its international commitments and whether Ukrainian citizens receive equal treatment under the law.

It is now more important than ever for Canada and our European allies to work together to make clear to the Ukrainian government that the benefits of Euro-Atlantic integration will not be available to Ukraine so long as it violates the values of freedom, political pluralism, and the rule of law that lie at the heart of the Euro-Atlantic community.

We urge the Canadian government to strengthen judicial independence and capacity. These are necessary to the peaceful, democratic and prosperous society Ukraine is striving to become, and Canada will continue to support its efforts in that direction.

Further, the Canadian government must in no uncertain terms communicate its concern to Ukrainian officials, including requesting assurances that Yulia Tymoshenko's constitutional rights will be fully respected.

Canada also has to be clear that negotiations for a Canada-Ukraine free trade agreement cannot be advanced as long as the Ukrainian government refuses to guarantee the protection of human rights, rule of law and democracy in that country. The Ukrainian Canadian Congress is arguing strongly for these provisions to be included.

In closing, as part of our strong relationship, we have a Canada-Ukraine parliamentary program which this year has brought for the 21st time more than 30 talented students to the Canadian Parliament to work with a number of MPs to experience democracy in action. It is our help with Ukraine for democracy building.

These talented interns working with us, one of whom I have in my office, represent the new wave of young and promising citizens of Ukraine. They work hard every day and dream about the better future for their home country. I encourage them and all Ukrainians to do their best and never give up believing in the bright future of Ukraine, and most important, working toward great change in their lives and in the life of their country.

Today we all wish to see a great country and its talented people succeed in overcoming the legacy of its difficult past and continue to build a democratic, stable, prosperous and harmonious society within Ukraine based on respect for national and religious minorities and strong, mutually respectful relations with its neighbours and beyond.

As we say in Parkdale—High Park, slava Ukraini, slava Canada.

Alexandrine Latendresse Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

Mr. Chair, I would like to thank the hon. member for her enlightening speech. It was very interesting to hear about the young Ukrainians travelling abroad who are learning what democracy, in the west or elsewhere, can do. Programs were recently set up to encourage as many students and other young Ukrainians as possible to come to Canada to study. It would be wonderful to encourage more of these types of programs that allow youth to come to Canada, to study here and to see what can be had in the west. When they return to Ukraine, they might want to take those ideas back home. Could the hon. member comment on that?

Peggy Nash Parkdale—High Park, ON

Mr. Chair, I thank the hon. member for her question. Canada has very close ties with Ukraine, and we can help Ukrainians in many ways, especially the youth. They have a lot of hope and ideas for the future. They want their country to be better in the future. Exchanges can be a great opportunity for them to see how our democracy and universities work. It is an important investment for Canada, and I continue to encourage our government to make this type of investment. It is a great boost to democracy in Ukraine.