House of Commons Hansard #12 of the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was post.

Topics

Preventing Human Smugglers from Abusing Canada's Immigration System Act

6:10 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

I said “if” they do not. I do know that if the people on the boats who arrive have documentation, we will know where they are from, which makes the situation even more tragic. The fact that the House of Commons at the time rejected them indicated that we knew very clearly where they were from. However, because they arrived en masse, in a group in an irregular way, they too will be subject to irregular arrival, so they will be designated under this law, if the law applies at the time. All of them will be put in jail for at least a year.

Preventing Human Smugglers from Abusing Canada's Immigration System Act

6:10 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Madam Speaker, there are some serious issues in regard to Bill C-4. We in the Liberal Party do not support Bill C-4. I think it is very important for us to recognize that what is really happening here is the establishment of a second tier or second class of refugee. We should all be very concerned why the government has chosen to push for that second class by establishing an irregular classification. It causes a great deal of concern.

The emphasis of the government should be to try to speed up the process of how we are processing refugees. It was not that many years ago, prior to this party being in government, that we had a 20,000-plus waiting list. Now we have backlogs of 60,000, virtually three times the number.

I wonder if the member could comment on the ways we should be improving this system, not necessarily bringing down the system and Canada's reputation as a country that has had an excellent way of dealing with refugees and a wonderful history. What should the government have been doing to try to improve our reputation worldwide and improve the current system we have today?

Preventing Human Smugglers from Abusing Canada's Immigration System Act

6:10 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

There are actually two streams of refugees. There are the ones that have applied outside Canada and then get sponsored by churches or by the government to bring them to Canada. There are about 4,000 or 5,000 like that. Then there are about 9,000 who have already landed in Canada and have applied for refugee status here.

The 4,000 or 5,000 who have applied outside Canada now have to wait about four or five years in refugee camps before they can make it into Canada. Therefore, the first thing the government should do is to shorten the wait times and ensure that these refugees in war-torn countries can come to Canada quickly. That is not the case right now.

Second, the wait list for those who are in Canada and are applying for refugee status in Canada has dramatically increased because the backlog has increased. Why? It is because the government, from 2006 to 2010, was not filling the vacant spots on the refugee board. As a result, the refugee board had no members to determine whether or not these were real refugees. Therefore, the backlog grew and the wait times became one or two or three years. It has become intolerable.

Therefore, last year the New Democratic Party of Canada worked with the government to approve Bill C-11, the Balanced Refugee Reform Act, to make the refugee-determination process faster and fairer. That bill got fast-tracked and was approved. All the government has to do is to implement its own law.

Preventing Human Smugglers from Abusing Canada's Immigration System Act

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

Jim Hillyer Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Madam Speaker, in the spirit of reciprocity, I want to point out that at the beginning of her speech, the member said that this bill was designed to be cruel and she then went on to say that meant an intent to inflict pain upon innocent people.

Is she saying that the minister is cruel and wants to inflict pain upon innocent people?

Preventing Human Smugglers from Abusing Canada's Immigration System Act

6:15 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

Madam Speaker, cruelty is defined as inflicting pain and suffering on others knowingly.

In my book, jailing a child for more than a year is cruel because the pain and the suffering the child would go through, not just immediately but all of her life, would be dramatic and the scars would not heal. So in my book, this bill is cruel. Whoever designed it is cruel because pain and suffering will be inflicted.

Preventing Human Smugglers from Abusing Canada's Immigration System Act

6:15 p.m.

NDP

Claude Gravelle NDP Nickel Belt, ON

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague for her intervention on this bill.

The minister stood a while ago and said this bill would prevent queue jumping. However, the only way people can jump the queue is if they are smuggled into Canada, yet the bill does nothing about the smuggling of immigrants.

I would like the hon. member to tell me why the minister would say something that does not exist in the bill.

Preventing Human Smugglers from Abusing Canada's Immigration System Act

6:15 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

Madam Speaker, in order not to look at our own failings, it is good to distract the public. Under the current government, the number of backlogged refugees has increased, the number of loved ones trying to come to Canada to be united with Canadians has increased dramatically, the number of skilled workers and entrepreneurs trying to come into Canada has increased dramatically. In fact, all wait times have increased dramatically. Also, the settlement services were recently cut this year by $53 million.

For the Conservative government not to catch flak from the immigrant communities, I guess blaming the refugees coming to our shores is a very convenient way to deflect its failings.

Preventing Human Smugglers from Abusing Canada's Immigration System Act

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB

Madam Speaker, the first point is that there has actually been an increase in funding for settlement services across the provinces. So the member, I am certain, would like to retract that comment.

I would also think the member would want to retract her comments with regard to the boatload of Jewish refugees who came to Canada. She distinctly said that those refugees did not have documentation. These refugees had documentation. They had passports, Nazi German passports, with a j stamped on them.

Now is not the time to revise history for the sake of one's political argument.

I wonder if the member would stand in this House, retract her comments and apologize to the people who would be offended by the comments she has made?

Preventing Human Smugglers from Abusing Canada's Immigration System Act

6:15 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

Madam Speaker, $53 million was cut from the 2011 budget for support and integration services for new immigrants. It was a 10% cut. In Ontario, there was a $43 million cut. On top of that, funding for these services in British Columbia was slashed by 8% or $8.5 million, and Nova Scotia has been cut as well.

The Conservatives also held back more than $200 million in promised settlement funding for Ontario during the last five years before the cuts were made.

Preventing Human Smugglers from Abusing Canada's Immigration System Act

6:20 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

Order, please. Is the hon. member rising on a point of order?

Preventing Human Smugglers from Abusing Canada's Immigration System Act

6:20 p.m.

Conservative

Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order.

I know the member did want to stand and apologize for her remarks with regard to the St. Louis.

I wonder if you would allow the member the opportunity to apologize to those people who would be offended by her comments with regard to revising history.

Preventing Human Smugglers from Abusing Canada's Immigration System Act

6:20 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

I appreciate the hon. member's comment. I believe this is a question of debate, so we will move on.

Does the hon. member for Peace River have another point of order?

Preventing Human Smugglers from Abusing Canada's Immigration System Act

6:20 p.m.

Conservative

Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB

Madam Speaker, I know the member was actually preparing to stand to apologize when I stood, and I wonder if you would give her the opportunity to apologize to the House.

Preventing Human Smugglers from Abusing Canada's Immigration System Act

6:20 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

Madam Speaker, I have nothing to apologize for because when that ship left India and brought Sikhs to Canada, they arrived irregularly. They would be decimated under this bill and there is—

Preventing Human Smugglers from Abusing Canada's Immigration System Act

6:20 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

There seems to be a question of debate.

The hon. member for Peace River rising on another point of order or the same one?

Preventing Human Smugglers from Abusing Canada's Immigration System Act

6:20 p.m.

Conservative

Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB

Madam Speaker, with regard to what the member just said—

Preventing Human Smugglers from Abusing Canada's Immigration System Act

6:20 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

I believe this is a question of debate and at the appropriate time, the hon. members may continue their debate.

Resuming debate with the hon. member for Lac-Saint-Louis.

Preventing Human Smugglers from Abusing Canada's Immigration System Act

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

Madam Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to rise on this important piece of legislation which was introduced in the last Parliament but did not proceed much further because of the election.

There is an observable pattern of behaviour with the Conservative government in terms of how it approaches complex and important issues, like the issue of human smuggling. When the government approaches issues like this, it seems to approach them without sufficient forethought, without focusing on the core of the problem, and without focusing on the substance of the issue.

In other words, the government focuses on sloganeering and photo-ops, sometimes to the detriment of the core of the issue. We have seen this with the issue of human smuggling and with other issues, like sentencing reform. The government does not address the issue. It only addresses the issue once it gets media attention that then attracts public concern.

For example, about a year before the government introduced Bill C-49, the government introduced Bill C-11. That bill was a source of much attention because the government made a compromise with the opposition parties to fast-track the legislation. With all the resources at the government's disposal, one would think it would have dealt with the issue of human smuggling in that bill, but it did not.

The government did not react to the issue of human smuggling until the Sun Sea arrived and received much media attention. It did not react until the issue of human smuggling became a sensational visual on the evening news.

The government does not do its homework when it presents legislation in the first place. It does not act on behalf of Canadians in a timely manner.

Let me be absolutely clear. We have no issue with the fact that we have to protect the security of Canadians. We do not want criminals and terrorists living in this country. We cannot put Canadians at risk. Liberal members have absolutely no quarrel with respect to the objective of the bill, which is to ensure that refugees who are accepted into Canada are legitimate refugees and do not pose a threat to the safety of Canadians.

It is also important that we adhere to certain principles when we vote on legislation. It is important that we do not vote for bills that offend the principles of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, for example. In other words, as parliamentarians it is our duty to not support legislation that could be deemed unconstitutional.

There is a practical reason for saying this. It is not just an academic statement to say that we have a duty to uphold charter principles or constitutional principles. There is a practical element to what I am saying. If we adopt legislation that is not charter-proof and winds up in the courts, then that legislation will be struck down by the courts.

Then Canadians are left without the protection that they need, without the protection that was intended to be in the particular piece of legislation that has been deemed unconstitutional. It is a very practical concern that we get it right the first time, or we are going to run into problems in the long-run.

As I said before, either we will be voting for a bill that does not properly deal with all aspects of an issue, only to have to rush back later and pass legislation at the last minute to resolve a problem or to correct a lacuna in that previous legislation, or we will wind up with a bill or with legislation that has been struck down.

There seems to be an attitude on the part of the government that it does not matter whether a bill meets the charter test, that we will just pass it now, and if someone challenges it in the future, then we will let the courts deal with that. I call that a “so, sue me” attitude. In other words, someone may be telling me that my bill or legislation is not charter-proof, but I do not care, sue me later. I think that is a very inappropriate way to approach public policy.

Before I proceed to a detailed discussion of Liberal Party reservations about this bill, there are three points I would like to make.

One of them has been made already today. It is that refugees are not queue jumpers. There is a misconception among the public that refugees are queue jumpers. Canadians obviously react badly to the notion that someone's rightful place has been taken by another person whose claim in the queue is not legitimate.

I know many fine Canadians, who believe in charter principles and in human rights, who react negatively when they are told that refugees are queue jumpers. That pains me a great deal, to see them misled by the confusion that has been allowed to stand on this issue. That is the first point. Refugees are not queue jumpers.

The second point I would like to make, for the benefit of those watching or listening at home or who will be reading these debates, is that there is a system in this country for determining—

Preventing Human Smugglers from Abusing Canada's Immigration System Act

6:30 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

The hon. member will be able to continue the next time this item is called for debate.

I t being 6:30 p.m., the House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 2 p.m., pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).

(The House adjourned at 6:30 p.m.)