House of Commons Hansard #75 of the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was firearms.

Topics

Bill C-19—Time Allocation MotionEnding the Long-gun Registry ActGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

Madam Speaker, I wanted to impress upon the members opposite how long this debate has been going on. Sometimes we have to use practical examples as illustrations that people can understand.

I think people can understand that someone being born and coming to the age of majority is a very long period of time. It is 18 years. As I said, it is almost as long as some of the members across the way have been alive.

This is not a rush through the House of Commons or the parliamentary process. For that member to twist my words in an untoward fashion like that is simply inappropriate.

Bill C-19—Time Allocation MotionEnding the Long-gun Registry ActGovernment Orders

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

Madam Speaker, I heard some members talk about their involvement in debate in terms of time allocation and their opportunity to be engaged in this. I heard one member from the opposition side say that he felt he did not have an opportunity to contribute. However, he was on the public safety committee and had an excellent opportunity to contribute there.

We know debate is not the only way for a member of Parliament to contribute to what is going on. Opposition members make it seem as though it is the only way to do so. The minister has made an excellent case that debate is not a lifelong process and we should move on with this.

However, one of the members brought up what we should consider reasonable amendments. Could the minister comment on reasonable amendments? Would the example of the amendment put forward by the opposition to change the short title of the bill be one that is reasonable and worthy of consideration in debate?

Bill C-19—Time Allocation MotionEnding the Long-gun Registry ActGovernment Orders

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

Madam Speaker, I thank the member for his hard work on this particular file. The people of Yukon are concerned about this long gun registry and this was an important part of his commitment to the people of Yukon.

For the opposition to bring up those types of frivolous amendments simply illustrates to the people of Canada that all those members are interested in with respect to this is a further 17 year delay.

Bill C-19—Time Allocation MotionEnding the Long-gun Registry ActGovernment Orders

10:40 a.m.

NDP

Pierre Dionne Labelle NDP Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Madam Speaker, what will be the Conservative government's legacy? What will Canadians think of the Conservatives 30 or 40 years from now? What will they think of this government that—in the history of Canada—will have collaborated the least on parliamentary work, invoked the most time allocation motions, been the least willing to collaborate on amendments, and invoked in camera proceedings the most? What kind of democracy do the members opposite think we live in?

Bill C-19—Time Allocation MotionEnding the Long-gun Registry ActGovernment Orders

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

Madam Speaker, I thank the member for contributing to the debate to the extent that he has.

The process works. In certain cases, as in this case, closure is warranted. When opposition members deliberately stymie the passage of every single bill because philosophically they oppose them, that is also an abuse of the parliamentary process. Closure is a mechanism to correct the abuse by the opposition parties.

Bill C-19—Time Allocation MotionEnding the Long-gun Registry ActGovernment Orders

10:40 a.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

It is my duty to interrupt the proceedings at this time and put forthwith the question on the motion now before the House.

The question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Bill C-19—Time Allocation MotionEnding the Long-gun Registry ActGovernment Orders

10:40 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

No.

Bill C-19—Time Allocation MotionEnding the Long-gun Registry ActGovernment Orders

10:40 a.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

Bill C-19—Time Allocation MotionEnding the Long-gun Registry ActGovernment Orders

10:40 a.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Bill C-19—Time Allocation MotionEnding the Long-gun Registry ActGovernment Orders

10:40 a.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

All those opposed will please say nay.

Bill C-19—Time Allocation MotionEnding the Long-gun Registry ActGovernment Orders

10:40 a.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

Bill C-19—Time Allocation MotionEnding the Long-gun Registry ActGovernment Orders

10:40 a.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

In my opinion, the nays have it.

And five or more members having risen:

Call in the members.

(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the following division:)

Vote #110

Ending the Long-gun Registry ActGovernment Orders

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

I declare the motion carried.

I wish to inform the House that because of the proceedings on the time allocation motion, government orders will be extended by 30 minutes.

The House resumed from February 6 consideration of the motion that Bill C-19, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and the Firearms Act, as reported (without amendment) from the committee, and of the motions in Group No. 1.

Report StageEnding the Long-gun Registry ActGovernment Orders

11:25 a.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

Resuming debate. The hon. member for Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley has eight minutes remaining for his comments and five minutes for questions.

Report StageEnding the Long-gun Registry ActGovernment Orders

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Armstrong Conservative Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to pick up my comments from where I left off yesterday at adjournment.

Yesterday I talked about the great statesman and parliamentarian Sir Edmund Burke. Burke's position, when discussing bills and motions that lead to an end requiring a practical application of the laws that parliamentarians pass, was that parliamentarians should focus on those who do as opposed to those who simply pontificate when seeking the ends to a particular means.

The particular end we seek is the protection of our communities and families from criminals. To that end our government has done a lot of common sense things. For example, we have introduced legislation that would put violent and repeat criminals behind bars.

The opposition also seeks the same end, to keep our communities and families safe, but believes that compiling a list of those law-abiding citizens who own long guns somehow achieves that goal. However, Canadians know that logic is tragically flawed.

I want the Canadian public to grasp this point. The opposition parties think that compiling a $2 billion list of law-abiding farmers and hunters is more effective in fighting crime and exponentially less expensive than simply locking criminals up. That is the difference between us and the opposition on this matter.

As Burke said, let us look to those who do in this regard. Those who do are our front line police officers who day after day protect our communities. What do front-line police officers say about the long gun registry? During committee study on the private member's bill introduced by the member for Portage—Lisgar, Detective Sergeant Murray Grismer of the Saskatoon police said this:

—we recognize the cornerstone of public safety is the training, screening, and licensing of owners, not the registration of non-restricted rifles and shotguns.

He went on to say:

I don't rely on the Canadian firearms registry to protect my life.... I don't rely on the information contained there.

Finally, Sergeant Grismer provided this common sense advice to committee:

By having more members on the street, having a more visible presence, we make our society safer than we do by having a registry—

It is clear that the long gun registry does nothing to enhance public safety.

It is truly disappointing that the opposition parties oppose the government every time it takes concrete steps to protect Canadians and their families. The opposition would use the heavy hand of the Criminal Code of Canada to threaten and intimidate law-abiding farmers and sportsmen, while we would use it to keep drug dealers who prey on our children and sex offenders who prey on their innocence behind bars. That is the difference.

It is worth dwelling of these differences because we know that the opposition likes to engage in misinformation campaigns, especially on the issue of the long gun registry.

The main difference between the government and the opposition is a basic philosophical one. On our side of the House we believe in constructive politics and empowering Canadians. We believe that our role is to empower Canadians so they can work hard, raise families, and to the greatest extent possible keep the fruits of their labour.

The opposition does not believe in that type of Canada. Those members believe in the politics of division and fear. They want to pit rural Canadians against urban Canadians. They want to pit gun owners against non-gun owners. They want to pit the younger generation against the older generation. It would seem that the Liberal Party and now even the NDP have adopted the advice of Liberal pollster Frank Graves, who counselled the Liberals to pit Canadians against each other in a grand culture war.

It would seem that Mr. Grave's advice has been taken to heart, in how these two parties have decided how they will approach the issue of the wasteful and ineffective long gun registry. Instead of working constructively, these parties have held fast to their rigid ideology in order to divide Canadians.

In one barrage of misinformation after another, the opposition has fired the opening salvos in its divisive culture war. I am going to give a couple of examples of the type of tactic that the opposition is using.

On not one but two occasions, the NDP misled Canadians by posting pictures of restricted weapons on its website, suggesting that these weapons would no longer be registered if Bill C-19 were to become law. On another occasion, the NDP claimed that a restricted weapon would somehow become unrestricted if Bill C-19 were to become law. We all know it has nothing to do with restricted weapons; it has to do with the long gun registry of law-abiding hunters, farmers and sports shooters.

Spreading this type of misinformation and fear is morally and intellectually bankrupt. We have long known that the NDP and Liberals are not averse to using this type of strategy. What they are averse to using is the facts, logic and plain reason in matters of public policy. Nonetheless, the deliberate use of misleading information is a new low.

I began this speech by repeating Burke's prescription that one should always look to the practical means of achieving an end when deliberating a difficult question. We believe in the end of safe communities. I also believe that through some contortion of logic, the opposition also seeks the same end. However, in reaching that end, we believe in a robust regime of firearm licensing. We believe that one aspect of having safe communities is that violent repeat offenders should be kept behind bars. We do not believe that a $2 billion list of law-abiding gun owners is a prudent means of realizing safety on our streets and in our communities.

We have looked to the farmers and to the front-line police officers, and their message is clear: let us get serious about crime and do things that would actually keep our families and communities safe. Let us get on with passing our badly needed criminal justice reforms. Let us pass Bill C-19.

Report StageEnding the Long-gun Registry ActGovernment Orders

11:35 a.m.

NDP

Robert Chisholm NDP Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Madam Speaker, I was listening to the member as he was addressing this issue.

The member is from Nova Scotia, as I am. As I was listening, some of his rhetoric caused me concern. When the member said his goal was to make Nova Scotians safer, was he suggesting that it was my goal to make Nova Scotians less safe?

Does the member in fact believe what the government has been suggesting, that as a member of this House I am somehow supporting the early release of sex offenders, or that I am somehow suggesting that people who commit murder in our communities should not be apprehended, incarcerated and penalized?

I would ask the member to consider this. The fact that we oppose the strategy of the government on this particular legislation should not be put down to rhetoric like this, suggesting that what I am doing in opposing him is in fact trying to make Nova Scotians less safe.

Report StageEnding the Long-gun Registry ActGovernment Orders

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Armstrong Conservative Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS

Madam Speaker, the member is in fact right. If he had listened to the first part of speech, I said that the opposition also seeks the same end, to keep our communities and families safe, but thinks that compiling a list of those law-abiding citizens who own long guns somehow achieves that goal.

I fully believe that all members of this House want to pass legislation that would result in all Canadians, their families and their communities being kept safe, but the fact is that our party believes the best way to do that is to lock violent offenders up, not let them walk the streets.

That is very different from what the opposition has been saying.

Report StageEnding the Long-gun Registry ActGovernment Orders

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Madam Speaker, I disagree with the member and his argument.

If we listen to the core of his argument today, he makes it sound as if the Conservatives are doing this based on facts and information brought to or prepared for them. Then the member goes on to say that the opposition is basing its decisions on its party beliefs and ideology.

The member has it completely mixed up: the facts do not support his speech. We can canvass emergency first responders, from the police to ambulance attendants, and advocacy groups out there, the stakeholders, who are telling us why this is valuable.

The member even concludes by saying it is a $2 billion registry. Well, we know that the annual cost of the registry is less than $5 million a year. We know that a vast majority of police want to see it maintained as one of the tools they use in policing.

I am wondering if the member has the roles reversed—

Report StageEnding the Long-gun Registry ActGovernment Orders

11:35 a.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

The hon. member for Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley.

Report StageEnding the Long-gun Registry ActGovernment Orders

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Armstrong Conservative Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS

As I mentioned in my speech, Madam Speech, we will not listen to those who sit in ivory towers and pontificate about the way things should be. We like to talk to people who are on the street, the front-line police officers who know how things are. When we do that, we do not have to walk too far. All we have to do is turn to our caucus colleagues.

The member for the Yukon, the member for Wetaskiwin, the member for Kootenay—Columbia, the member for Saint Boniface, the member for Vaughan, the member for Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, the member for Oxford and the member for Northumberland—Quinte West were law enforcement officers in this nation, and to a one, they support the elimination of the long gun registry.

Report StageEnding the Long-gun Registry ActGovernment Orders

11:40 a.m.

NDP

Djaouida Sellah NDP Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

Madam Speaker, I would like to begin by saying how disappointed I am that the government has introduced this bill. During the previous Parliament, my colleague from Timmins—James Bay introduced a bill laying out a responsible approach to ensuring public safety while taking into account the needs and grievances of gun owners. I am disappointed in the government's position, but I am not surprised.

Personally, I support the gun registry. There is no doubt in my mind that the registry is an important tool to ensure public safety in Quebec and in Canada. How can the government say that it wants to make our streets safer? Of course I want safer streets, but I have to tell it like it is. This government has ignored all of the available data and analyses, choosing instead to give us Bill C-10 and Bill C-19. The people of Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert and I feel that this government is not walking the walk.

Many organizations have condemned this bill, among them the Fédération des policiers et policières municipaux du Québec, the Quebec association of emergency physicians, the Canadian Labour Congress and the YWCA. These organizations have said that the registry is useful.

Why is this government not heeding its own Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime, Ms. O'Sullivan, who has said that Canada must do all it can to prevent further tragedies from happening, including using the tools we have to help keep communities safe, like the long-gun registry?

From the beginning of the session, this government has tried to convince us that it cares about the victims of crime. Students at Dawson College spoke to me about this issue at a meeting on post-secondary education. The chairperson of the Dawson student union, Audrey Deveault, said that the harm caused by firearms is a problem for our country and that weakening long gun control would not help solve the problem. But why listen to them? Dawson College students asked to meet with the Prime Minister to discuss the firearms registry, but he did not even have the courtesy to respond.

The Association des étudiants de Polytechnique has also spoken out loud and clear against this bill, as has the Association québécoise plaidoyer-victimes, which stated in its press release that saving money is a false argument. It said:

Citing the cost of the registry as a reason for undermining some of its elements is not one of the soundest possible arguments. In fact, the Polytechnique, Concordia and Dawson shootings are tragic reminders of the cost of gun violence.

I would also like to call the attention of this House to the opinion of Quebec's Association of Families of Persons Assassinated or Disappeared. Ms. Elizabeth Pousoulidis, president of the association, said that controlling and registering firearms were important measures to protect safety and quality of life in our communities and to minimize the number of victims wounded or slain. That is one more voice speaking out against this bill. The government may not have expected this from an organization founded by one of its senators.

The registry has had many positive outcomes. I have been involved in women's causes for a long time. I was affected by the École Polytechnique massacre, which spurred many to call for the creation of the registry. But we should not forget about domestic violence. According to the Ombudsman for Victims of Crime, 71% of spousal homicides are committed with a rifle or shotgun. These types of guns are governed by this bill.

The YWCA estimates that violence against women costs Canadians approximately $4 billion annually.

Over 100,000 women and children are forced to leave their homes because of violence and abuse. The CEO of the YWCA, Paulette Senior, made a very important point that I would like to share with the House. She said, “Long guns and rifles are used to intimidate women and the threat of a rifle is often a significant reason that women don’t risk leaving to seek help.”

That is why the Fédération des femmes du Québec, the Regroupement des maisons pour femmes victimes de violence conjugale and the Fédération de ressources d'hébergement pour femmes violentées et en difficulté du Québec have decided to speak out in favour of maintaining the firearms registry. They work in the field of violence against women and they see the effects of firearms and the registry. It is important to note that the rate of homicides involving rifles or shotguns has decreased by 70% since the registry was created.

As a member from Quebec, I call upon this government to grant the request of the Government of Quebec and Quebeckers. We must save the firearms registry or, in the worst case scenario, we must save the data. We must.

I would like to close by citing a letter that I received from Dr. Jocelyne Sauvé, the director of public health in the Montérégie region. She makes arguments that represent the principles I uphold as a physician.

...I would like to share with you my concerns about public health should this bill be passed.

In Canada, firearms are the cause of approximately 800 deaths per year, mainly suicides committed in private residences with non-restricted firearms such as shotguns or rifles. A number of studies have shown that a home where there are firearms is five times more likely to be the scene of a suicide and three times more likely to be the scene of a homicide or a firearm-related accident than a home without a gun. Contrary to popular belief, most gun deaths are caused by people who do not have a criminal record. For these people, who often have personal, marital or mental health problems, access to firearms is a significant risk factor for such action. As a result, controlling access to firearms is a key prevention measure for vulnerable individuals.

...The combined effects [of the firearms registry] have resulted in a reduction in the number of weapons that are improperly stored, lost or illegally owned. It also makes firearms less accessible to individuals who are vulnerable or in a state of crisis, without preventing owners from using them for ordinary, legitimate, purposes such as hunting or sports shooting.

In addition, the Institut national de santé publique du Québec recently stated that the Firearms Act had saved 300 lives a year between 1998 and 2004. I am therefore asking members of the House to consider the points that I have just mentioned, as well as those set out in our brief, and oppose this bill.

Report StageEnding the Long-gun Registry ActGovernment Orders

11:45 a.m.

Portage—Lisgar Manitoba

Conservative

Candice Bergen ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Safety

Madam Speaker, my question has to do with violence against women. I agree with my colleague that the best thing we can do is to ensure people who are unstable do not get guns and do not have access to them. The licensing process can help with that. It is not a perfect system, but it can help red flag individuals who should not own a firearm.

There is yet to be any link between the registry and firearms control, where people actually do not have access to a firearm because of the registry. No one has been able to make that point.

My hon. colleague talked about the fact that many women are intimidated by guns and that guns are used to intimidate them, which is a very sad thing. However, the fact is more women are actually killed with knives. Therefore, following the logic of my colleague across the way, given that more women are killed with knives than anything, does the NDP now propose a registry for knives? Unfortunately that is how they are being killed.

Report StageEnding the Long-gun Registry ActGovernment Orders

11:50 a.m.

NDP

Djaouida Sellah NDP Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague opposite for her very pertinent question.

Today we are discussing the firearms registry. As I said in my speech, statistics show that firearms are often used in domestic violence. I would also remind the member opposite that for several years now, the NDP has been saying that we need to find ways to resolve the problems associated with the registry, while strengthening laws to help control the possession of firearms.