House of Commons Hansard #266 of the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was treaties.

Topics

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

7:55 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Speaker, that is really one of the major points I hoped to bring forward tonight. That is why the Conservatives have wanted to shut down debate. This is the 44th time now they have invoked closure. They always have another excuse. Tonight it was because people support the bill itself. I guess beyond that, what they are actually saying is they hope that no one brings forward their shoddy record on uncollected tax debt and allowing these tax havens. Of course, even though we are operating under closure, we have no hesitation in bringing forward the shoddy record of the Conservatives.

The reality is, as I pointed out and as was pointed out in the auditor general's report, the $10 million debts are the ones the Conservatives just seem to let go by, but they go after individual taxpayers to pay their fair share and catch up on monies they owe to Revenue Canada.

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

8 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. member for the enthusiasm that he puts to what is described as a pretty straightforward, not terribly exciting bill. He can turn any topic into a subject everyone wants to pay attention to.

Those watching the proceedings today would have to be a little appalled. What the government members of the day were celebrating earlier on, before we got into debating this bill, which is supposed to be all about collecting taxes, was tax freedom day. Therefore, I would like to ask the member how he feels about how seriously taxpayers in Canada are going to take the government on how serious it is about collecting taxes?

Conservatives like to stand up every day and if they do not say it once they say it a dozen times that they are going to lower everyone's taxes. One of the things that troubles me is the amount of money not paid in taxes. That is free use of our resources. The excuse always is we will keep the royalties low on resources because we get the revenue in taxes. Then we find out that not all those taxes are being paid. I wonder if the member could speak to that.

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

8 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Speaker, the member for Edmonton—Strathcona is a very courageous voice in the House of Commons. She stands up for Albertan families and is the best member for Alberta bar none. There is no doubt about that. She is an amazing member of Parliament, one of the best in Canada, as well.

She makes a very important point that for many in the corporate sector, with tens of billions of dollars flowing offshore, tax freedom day is actually December 31st. They do not pay any taxes and the Conservatives are saying that is okay and if they owe a lot of money, they do not have to worry. The Conservatives will just let them get by. If they want to spend tens of billions of dollars in tax havens, they do not have to worry, because the Conservatives will let them get by. However, if a single mother in Burnaby—New Westminster gets behind on her taxes, not only will she have to pay her taxes, which would be fine for anybody across the country, she will have the Conservatives denigrating, attacking and disrespecting her.

They are the two-faced Conservatives. On the one hand, for ordinary families, the Conservatives going to make sure that they pay. On the other hand, if they are in the corporate sector and they want to send tens of billions of dollars offshore, the Conservatives say that is just fine and dandy. That is why they will be defeated in 2015. Canadians see that hypocrisy.

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

8 p.m.

NDP

Jasbir Sandhu NDP Surrey North, BC

Mr. Speaker, the member for Burnaby—New Westminster is one of the strong voices from British Columbia.

I am multi-tasking here, and I was googling “tax evasion” in the news of the day. From what I see on the news here, the first headline is France Expands Inquiry of Tax Evasion at UBS. The second headline I see is about Italy going after tax evaders. I see that the U.S. is cracking down on virtual currency tax evasion. This was posted in the news within four or five hours. I see India doing it, France is again doing it. The headline I see from Canada here, and this is actually from the Ottawa Citizen this morning, says, “Canada slammed for lagging behind in fighting tax evasion as G8 summit looms”.

The G8 countries are partners. They are taking proactive steps to collect funds from these tax evaders. I do not see the Conservatives coming up with a concrete plan so that we can collect unpaid taxes.

Could the member comment on the trends that we are seeing across Europe and other parts of the world, and what the Conservatives are not doing?

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

8 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Speaker, the member for Surrey North is one of the bright new members of Parliament here. He brings a wealth of business experience and his experience in public safety from the justice institute in New Westminster. He brings all of that before the House of Commons and does a terrific job as a member of Parliament, representing his constituents in Surrey North.

He is absolutely right about this embarrassment of a government that we have. We have the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, a whole host of European leaders and the United States wanting to take action. Canada is the international laggard. They want to have a corporate tax registry and the Conservative government says no. Why? I do not know why.

I mentioned earlier all of the recommendations the NDP brought forward to the finance committee. We have international links and we know what other governments are doing, so we brought forward the same suggestions that are going to be discussed in the United Kingdom and the Conservatives said no. That is why the Conservative government has the reputation of being a laggard when it comes to tax havens and of being a laggard in uncollected tax debt. It simply does not have credibility internationally.

That is why we need an NDP government to re-establish our credibility internationally. That is what—

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

8:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

Order, please. Resuming debate, the hon. member for Don Valley East.

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

8:05 p.m.

Conservative

Joe Daniel Conservative Don Valley East, ON

Mr. Speaker, hopefully we can bring this discussion back to the bill that we are looking at.

I appreciate this opportunity to discuss Bill S-17, an act to implement conventions, protocols, agreements and a supplementary convention, concluded between Canada and Namibia, Serbia, Poland, Hong Kong, Luxembourg and Switzerland, for the avoidance of double taxation and the prevention of fiscal evasion with respect to taxes.

Before I begin, I would like to take this opportunity to thank all the members of the banking, trade and commerce committee in the Senate for their thorough and timely review of this piece of legislation recently. I would also like to extend my thanks to the Minister of State for Finance for his appearance at the Senate committee as well as the other officials and witnesses for their attendance. Their insightful testimony on this subject, which can often be technical, was greatly appreciated.

I think I am speaking for all in saying that the information they provided was invaluable in helping Canadians obtain a clear understanding of how Canada's network of taxes, treaties and information exchange agreements functions. As Cyndee Cherniak of LexSage Professional Corporation, a leading international trade firm in Canada, told the Senate banking, trade and commerce committee earlier this year, and I quote:

Bill S-17 is a good law and should be supported....Tax treaties facilitate trade. Tax treaties are symbols of cooperation, trust and friendship between nations. Tax treaties prevent double taxation.... They improve stability, transparency, fairness, procedural fairness and tax certainty relating to international trade and transactions. Tax treaties are good for Canadian businesses with activities abroad through branches, subsidiaries and other business enterprises. Tax treaties are good for individuals, employers, directors of corporations, students, shareholders, et cetera.

I could not agree more. Tax treaties are a vital part of a government's overall approach to improve the tax system.

Currently, Canada has comprehensive tax treaties in place with 90 countries and continues to work on agreements with their jurisdictions. Bill S-17 is part of Canada's ongoing effort to update and modernize our network of income tax treaties, which helps prevent double taxation and tax evasion. In the past, Parliament adopted many similar tax treaties. In fact, beginning in 1976, governments, both Liberal and Conservative, brought forward 30 such pieces of legislation, and most recently, those concerning Colombia, Greece and Turkey. I should note that Canada maintains one of the world's largest networks of bilateral tax treaties. This is an important feature of Canada's international tax system, a feature that is key to promoting our ability to compete.

At the same time, the system must ensure that everyone pays their fair share of taxes. It is not appropriate that some corporations, both foreign-owned and Canadian, take advantage of Canada's tax rules to avoid taxes and that some wealthy individuals use offshore jurisdictions to help them hide income and evade taxes. In all of these cases, working Canadians and small businesses, among others, are left having to pay more taxes than they otherwise should. This is simply not fair.

To detect and deter the concealment of income, the Canada Revenue Agency needs information from foreign governments. To this end, Canada supports the international consensus to encourage jurisdictions to meet and implement the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development standards for international tax information exchange. That standard is implemented under the bilateral tax treaties and tax information exchange agreements, like those being discussed today.

Here at home, our Conservative government continues to work hard to keep our tax system up to date and competitive so that Canada can remain a leading player in the global economy. Action in support of a more competitive tax system is essential to create an environment that enables Canada's visionary entrepreneurs and industries to excel and that does not stand in the way of their success. Moreover, tax treaties are an integral element of our plan to improve the standard of living of all Canadians.

Tax treaties, like those in Bill S-17, directly affect cross-border trade in goods and services with our tax treaty partners, which in turn impacts Canada's domestic economic performance.

Over 40% of Canada's annual gross domestic product can be attributed to exports. Moreover, Canada's economic wealth each year also depends on foreign direct investment as well as the inflows of information, capital and technology.

In other words, the tax treaties contained in Bill S-17 would benefit Canadian businesses and individuals with operations and investments in countries covered by this legislation. Tax treaties foster an atmosphere of certainty and stability for investors and traders that can substantially enhance Canada's economic relationship with each country.

Another important facet of these treaties is that they include a mechanism to settle problems encountered by taxpayers, in particular where double taxation arises. Under this mechanism, taxpayers can bring to the attention of taxation authorities issues that arise from the interaction of our tax system with that of other treaty partners and seek a resolution on the issue.

In short, tax treaties provide individuals and businesses in Canada and other treaty partner countries with predictable and equitable tax results in their cross-border dealings. This can only have a favourable effect on the Canadian economy.

Likewise, the tax treaties in the bill have been designed with three goals in mind: first, to facilitate international trade and investment; second, to prevent double taxation and provide a level of certainty about the tax rules that apply to particular international transactions; and third, to prevent avoidance and evasion of taxes on various forms of income flows between the treaty partners.

Today's legislation is part of Canada's ongoing effort to update and modernize its network of income tax treaties, which will help prevent taxation and tax evasion.

Let me go on to the issue of double taxation for a moment. Double taxation in an international sense arises as a result of imposition of taxes in two or more states on the same taxable income for the same period of time. This overlap between taxation by the country where the income is generated and taxation by the country where the taxpayer resides can have obvious adverse and unfair consequences for the taxpayer. Nobody wants to have their income taxed twice, nor should it be, but without a tax treaty such as those contained in today's bill, this is exactly what could happen.

Tax treaties ensure that double taxation relief is provided where both countries claim taxes on the same income. Tax treaties also allocate tax rights between two countries as a means of protecting taxpayers against potential double taxation. In some cases, the exclusive right to tax particular income is granted to the country where the taxpayer resides. This precludes taxation in the state of source and, therefore, double taxation.

For example, if a Canadian resident employed by a Canadian company were sent on a short-term assignment for, say, three months to any one of the treaty countries covered by the bill, Canada would have the exclusive right to tax that person's employment income. On the other hand, if the same person were employed abroad for a longer period of time, say one year, then the country where the person works could also tax the employment income. However, in this case under the terms of the tax treaty, through the foreign tax credit mechanism, Canada must credit that tax paid in the other country against the Canadian tax otherwise payable on the income. This is an example of how the allocation of taxing rights between countries and between bilateral tax treaties would ensure that individuals and businesses are taxed fairly.

One way to reduce the potential of double taxation is to reduce withholding taxes. These taxes are a common feature in international taxation. They are levied by a country on certain items of income earned in that country and paid to the residents of the other country. The types of income normally subjected to withholding taxes would include, for example, interest, dividends and royalties.

Withholding taxes are levied on the gross amount paid to the non-resident and represent the final obligation with respect to Canadian income tax. Without tax treaties, Canada usually taxes this income at the rate of 25%, which is a set rate under our own legislation for income tax.

Withholding tax rates in other countries are often as high or even higher. Tax treaties reduce rates for withholding taxes. For example, the treaties with Namibia, Serbia, Poland and Hong Kong in Bill S-17 would provide for a maximum withholding tax rate on dividends between affiliated companies at 5%. In respect to other dividends, those treaties would provide for a rate of withholding taxes set at 15%.

Reductions would also apply in respect of interest and royalties. Again, the treaties covered in this proposed legislation would promote certainty, stability and a better business climate for taxpayers and businesses in Canada and in the treaty countries.

Moreover, these treaties would help to secure Canada's position in an increasingly competitive world of international trade and investment. Clearly, having modern international tax conventions, such as these contained in Bill S-17, is a key component of that goal.

Canada remains committed to maintaining a tax system that will continue to help Canadian businesses in their drive to be world leaders. Tax treaties like those in Bill S-17 would directly support cross-border trade in goods and services, which in turn helps Canada's domestic economic performance.

Moreover, Canada's economic wealth each year also depends on foreign direct investment, as well as inflows of information, capital and technology. In fact, during the committee's examination of this legislation, well-respected tax professional Nick Pantaleo, of PricewaterhouseCoopers, remarked that:

...a key objective of the Canadian government is to pursue new and deeper international trade and investment relationships.... In my view, tax treaties contribute toward the success of such global trading arrangements.

This is not surprising given that more than 60% of the Canadian economy and 1 in 5 jobs in Canada are generated by trade. It would seem clear that the tax treaties contained in Bill S-17 are a critical tool in strengthening Canada's trade and investment relationships and in creating jobs for Canadians here at home. That is especially the case with the agreement with Hong Kong.

Our government considers Hong Kong a priority in Canada's global trade efforts. Hong Kong is our third largest financial market in Asia and an important source of direct investment. It is Canada's 10th largest export market, including everything from telecommunications devices to train signalling systems to educational and financial services.

An example of the importance of Hong Kong in our trade efforts is an agreement between Canada and Hong Kong for the avoidance of double taxation, which the Prime Minister announced when he was in Hong Kong last November.

Of course the region itself is a key market for us, which is why Canada is at the negotiating table for the trans-Pacific partnership, which would open up new markets and increase Canadian exports to fast-growing markets throughout the Asia-Pacific region.

Our government is also working hard to forge stronger links through such multilateral organizations such as the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation and the World Trade Organization to which Canada, China and Hong Kong all belong.

The Canada-Hong Kong tax treaty would truly foster an atmosphere of certainty and stability that would enhance Canada's economic relationship with Hong Kong.

As the Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters noted of the Hong Kong tax treaty included in Bill S-17:

Hong Kong holds tremendous potential for Canadian businesses looking to establish a strong presence in China and...across all of Asia, and this Agreement will help fulfill this potential....

(It) reduces barriers to two-way trade and investment between Canada and Hong Kong.

Listen to the words of the Investment Industry Association of Canada, again in reference to the Hong Kong tax treaty included in Bill S-17, who said it would expand:

....savings and capital flows between our two markets....

Moreover, the attraction of Canadian equities would benefit Canadian financial firms expanding their wealth management business in Hong Kong and, through Hong Kong, to a market of over one billion Chinese.

To conclude, the treaties covered in this proposed legislation would promote certainty, stability and a better business climate for taxpayers and businesses in Canada and in these treaty countries.

More importantly, the treaties would help to secure Canada's position in the increasingly competitive world of international trade and investment.

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

8:20 p.m.

NDP

Pierre Jacob NDP Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his speech.

How can the government explain the $29 billion in uncollected tax debt reported by the Auditor General?

In other words, how can the government reconcile this tax mismanagement on one hand with its inaction on tax evasion on the other, as 24% of foreign investments are lost to offshore tax havens?

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

8:20 p.m.

Conservative

Joe Daniel Conservative Don Valley East, ON

Mr. Speaker, clearly Bill S-17 is looking to improve on the situation we currently have and looks forward to dealing with the various tax situations between the countries to capture more of the taxes and return them to Canada.

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

8:20 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, it would be more encouraging if the government would do more than just bring in legislation. Legislation is an important part of it. All of us recognize that. That is the reason the government is ultimately getting the support of all members of the House. We all recognize the importance of doing what we can, and legislation is a part of that.

However, the Conservatives have continuously refused to publish some sort of an official estimate of Canada's tax gap. How can we take the government seriously in terms of a strategy to deal with the tax evasion issue if it is not prepared to publish official information such as the tax gap, which would go a long way in not only identifying it and following through with it but dealing with such issues as increasing resources to Canada Revenue Agency, so we have the proper resources to go after those individuals who are evading our tax system?

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

June 10th, 2013 / 8:20 p.m.

Conservative

Joe Daniel Conservative Don Valley East, ON

Mr. Speaker, just because it is not being published does not mean that we do not keep track of it or are looking at that.

What we would do with this bill is enhance what we can do with other countries and make sure we can maximize the transfer of business, which would generate more revenue for Canada.

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

8:20 p.m.

Conservative

Bernard Trottier Conservative Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for Don Valley East for his eloquent speech in which he hit all of the key points.

We are here to talk about tax treaties, but obviously there are other areas that are affected. He discussed the importance of foreign direct investment in both directions in his speech: Canada and Canadian companies investing in companies overseas, which would like to have some tax treaties in place, as well as trade.

I would ask the member to talk about the impact of having tax treaties in place and how that facilitates increased foreign direct investment in both directions, and also increased trade in both directions.

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

8:20 p.m.

Conservative

Joe Daniel Conservative Don Valley East, ON

Mr. Speaker, when we make life easier and reduce the bureaucracy between countries, there is much better opportunity for trade. By having these agreements, we would protect both Canadian companies doing business with the treaty countries and the treaty countries being able to work closely with us.

Clearly, an exchange of the phenomenal resources we have in this country in terms of providing services to countries like Namibia and Hong Kong and access to the Asian markets is a great opportunity. We need to stay with it and compete globally. That is why this bill is so appropriate.

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

8:25 p.m.

NDP

Anne Minh-Thu Quach NDP Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC

Mr. Speaker, this bill will be passed, but I would like to know what my colleague thinks of the fact that it is woefully short on content. Indeed, a closer look will show that instead of solving problems, it will create others.

Under this bill, 3,000 Canada Revenue Agency employees will be laid off as a result of $250 million in budget cuts, I believe. There will be fewer people available to investigate and make businesses pay their taxes as they should. As a result, more money will be diverted to tax havens. This file is a losing proposition for Canada.

Given that that billions of dollars, 57% more money, is going to tax havens, how can this be considered a serious bill that actually targets the root causes of tax evasion? On top of not providing additional resources to the Canada Revenue Agency, the government is cutting the resources the agency already has.

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

8:25 p.m.

Conservative

Joe Daniel Conservative Don Valley East, ON

Mr. Speaker, it would have been appropriate if the member had read the bill in detail, because one of the key aspects of it is the double taxation, which would actually increase our business with the countries we have these treaties with, thus helping us in that sense.

There are also opportunities to invest both ways and make sure that works well for us and increases our competitiveness on a global scale.

That is what is contained in Bill S-17.

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

8:25 p.m.

NDP

Alain Giguère NDP Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Mr. Speaker, we are talking about a very interesting agreement with Hong Kong and with countries such as Switzerland. The problem is that the agreement with Switzerland, in particular, does not solve the problem of Swiss banks and their bank secrecy. Switzerland is now, and will continue to be, a tax haven.

Can my esteemed colleague explain how it is that this legislation will mean that people who pay their taxes will not be penalized, but it will not prevent those who do not want to pay their taxes from continuing to do so, thanks to Switzerland's bank secrecy?

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

8:25 p.m.

Conservative

Joe Daniel Conservative Don Valley East, ON

Mr. Speaker, the bill does not look at avoiding the issues with Switzerland specifically on taxes. It is designed to improve businesses and make our position as Canadians competitive globally. The bill would allow more business to take place, which in itself would generate a lot more taxes.

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

8:25 p.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

Mr. Speaker, some of what we have been talking about tonight has been about trying to catch tax cheats and the $29 billion that sits outside of Canada's reach at the moment because it has effectively been hidden from our tax collectors.

However, at the same time that we are trying to find that money, we are cutting staff and funding from the Canada Revenue Agency, which means that there will be fewer people there to catch these cheats. Can we deal with that, effectively?

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

8:25 p.m.

Conservative

Joe Daniel Conservative Don Valley East, ON

Mr. Speaker, technology has moved on from some of the days when my esteemed colleague was around. We can obviously do a lot better with the technologies we have, and I am sure there will be a lot of detail worked into how we can use those technologies to actually catch tax cheats.

That aside, this legislation is focused mainly on improving our position globally and on making sure that Canada stays competitive in the global picture.

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

8:30 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Dubé NDP Chambly—Borduas, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am honoured to share my time with my colleague from York South—Weston, who, based on what we just heard, is not up on the latest technology. However, I know that he is young at heart, so I am very happy to share my time with him.

In all seriousness, the bill before us today is very important. It is rare to see a bill that deals with such a topical issue. Just today there were a number of newspaper articles about tax evasion.

Before I talk about that, I want to clarify that the government seems to have a habit of mismanaging things. It talks about this bill as though it offered a tangible solution to the issue of tax evasion. In reality, although we support the bill, it simply contains routine measures to update different agreements with other countries.

It is important to update these agreements, maintain good relations with these countries and move forward with the process. However, at the end of the day, these routine measures, although important, are no substitute for resources, the staff and money allocated, in this case, to the Canada Revenue Agency, whose mandate includes trying to resolve this issue.

There are two things I want to talk about that have been in the news. The first is that the Canada Revenue Agency did not want to pay for a list of people who are evading taxes.

That is interesting, because on my way back to Ottawa, I listened to an interview with my party leader on 98.5. The NDP leader explained what he found so shameful about the whole process. Unlike countries such as the United States, which seized the opportunity to obtain the information, punish people and collect the money, the CRA did nothing.

These people are very wealthy. They have lots of money. They are millionaires. They have millions and billions of dollars that they can hide elsewhere.

The NDP leader focused on those two points, and I think he was right to do so. This issue is a big deal not only to people in my riding but also to all Quebeckers. We are debating this issue at the federal level here in Ottawa, but Quebec's National Assembly is debating this too. MNAs are talking about how they can put the brakes on tax evasion and collect that money.

The fact that all politicians are starting to work on this is a signal that people are saying enough is enough. They really want to see action on this issue.

Unfortunately, as I said at the beginning of my speech, that is not what we are seeing today. This is just a routine procedure to update various agreements.

The other relevant point is the one I find more interesting as I listen to my Conservative colleagues this evening. They have a different perspective on the issue. They talk about the potential benefits for free trade. The NDP understands the importance of that.

During the debate on the free trade agreement with Panama, for example, tax evasion was one of the main issues. People talked about how there was not a good system in place for exchanging financial information and how that might lead to even more tax evasion. People raised those concerns.

Government members are right when they say that fighting tax evasion and having a good information exchange system contributes to a relationship of trust that facilitates trade between countries. That is a fact. However, we have to look at other issues too, such as what is really going on right now.

The government talks about wanting to create an environment that fosters good relations with other countries, about eliminating tax evasion and facilitating free trade.

This morning a newspaper article talked about the G8 summit. There will be discussions about this, including with the Prime Minister of Great Britain. The countries that truly want to work together on fighting tax evasion will be involved in the discussions. After all, this is a matter that requires a great deal of collaboration because it is not limited to one country. We are talking about a number of countries. This collaboration is important.

This evening, we have heard Conservative members talk about the apparent willingness to create conditions that are conducive to eliminating tax evasion. Despite that, the article says that Canada will not be participating in these talks. It seems to be very reluctant, even absent, and it just does not want to work with the other countries on measures that might be put in place. We find that extremely disappointing. This goes against the message that the NDP wants to convey this evening.

If we really want to fight tax evasion and there are agreements or multilateral discussions with a view to implementing multilateral agreements, then we have a duty on an international level to take part in those discussions. This is a very significant way for us to be able to recover this money and establish good faith relationships that will also allow other countries to do the same thing. Accordingly, we hope to create an international environment that will be much more honest about tax evasion. This is a growing trend. Many of the cases we are dealing with these days require international negotiations and good faith relationships. The government is increasingly withdrawing from these processes. This trend is starting to take hold.

The Conservatives may well introduce yet another bill that is very routine. I cannot stress this word enough. We support this bill, although they are using it as an excuse to wax poetic about all their achievements on the international stage. However, the facts do not lie. This is what was in the news this morning. Among other things, the government is completely absent from the conversations taking place among countries with which Canada supposedly has good relations. These are countries like Great Britain, countries that are our allies and could easily help us create conditions that would lead to a solution.

To conclude, I would like to say that we support this bill and I am very pleased to have the opportunity to speak on this issue. Indeed, as I indicated, this issue is of great concern to my constituents. This evening I was able to answer some of the letters they have written me in recent months. The most common issues they raised related to equity between the middle class—the workers, the 98%, to use the popular term—and the very affluent people, those who have a lot of money and obviously benefit from tax evasion. This is a reminder that recovering this money can help people who work hard pay their taxes and benefit from the systems we put in place, the various democratic, social and other institutions established to help them. We recognize how important this is.

The first question has to do with fiscal fairness, but the other question the people of Chambly—Borduas often ask me has to do with Canada's actions on the international stage. That is why I focused so much on what we are seeing here this evening and in general. The government likes to talk about the grand gestures it is making internationally to fight the various negative situations, such as tax evasion, but unfortunately, it just cannot walk the talk. The people of my riding and from across Canada, I am sure, would like to see a lot more good faith on the part of the government, relationships that are much more multilateral and much more positive and constructive on the international scene. That would be good for everyone. This would largely solve the tax evasion problem and many other problems, I am sure.

I look forward to questions and comments from my colleagues.

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

8:40 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, it is fair to say that Canadians want to see tangible results. It was not that long ago when former prime minister Paul Martin brought forward in a budget a commitment of $150 million to deal with tax evasion. That $150 million ultimately led to an impact of somewhere in the neighbourhood of $2.5 billion, which is a great deal of money.

The member makes reference to the legislation and, yes, we all support it. However, could he contrast the investment in providing financial resources to draw out more of that money that is being taken away from the tax base and what the government is doing in cutting back on resources to Canada Revenue Agency today?

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

8:40 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Dubé NDP Chambly—Borduas, QC

Mr. Speaker, although this is rare, I must admit that I agree with my Liberal Party colleague on the issue of resources.

However, I would not dare to comment on any potential impact, because we have not had a chance to see any concrete results. It is still a problem. I do not know what this means for the long term. However, one thing is certain: the point he raises regarding the lack of resources is the other problem.

He talked about the fact that all parties support the bill. As I have already said and I will say again and again, the bill does not represent a real gesture or a new gesture on this issue. The government must continue making updates.

The Conservatives need to stop trying to convince us that the bill is a new measure that will suddenly produce the financial and human resources needed to fight tax evasion, because that is completely false.

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

8:40 p.m.

NDP

Pierre Jacob NDP Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the member for Chambly—Borduas for his energetic and fiery speech.

I would like to ask him a question. In addition to the social justice it would create, why is it important that everyone pay their fair share and why is it important that the money not be invested in far-off tax havens? I would like the member to explain how that works, whether in relation to the social safety net or infrastructure.

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

8:40 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Dubé NDP Chambly—Borduas, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the member for his question. I am happy to know that he thinks I am energetic, even at this hour. That is a good sign.

His question is very relevant, and I will repeat the response given by the leader of the official opposition, the NDP, this morning on the radio during the interview that I mentioned during my speech. He spoke about people who make millions of dollars, billions even, in Canada and who put that money in tax havens. What is interesting is that in the majority of cases, these people have made their money and earned a living by benefiting from existing systems in society. Those systems are there to serve them, thanks to the government and taxpayers.

When someone lives in a society, a community or a country and makes money or earns a living because of those systems, that person has a responsibility to invest in that same society, in that same community. However, the exact opposite happens with tax evasion. It is extremely alarming, and it poses a problem. I would go so far as to say that it shows a certain amount of contempt for the public.

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

8:40 p.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

Mr. Speaker, one of the things our friends in the third party suggested was that there had been some money spent on collecting from tax cheats. However, the Auditor General in fact said that at the end of 10 years of Conservative rule until 1994 and then again at the end of 13 years of Liberal rule in 2006, the amount of money being escaped from taxes was actually growing and growing significantly.

Could he comment on this?