House of Commons Hansard #172 of the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was rcmp.

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The House resumed from February 6 consideration of the motion.

Consideration Resumed of MotionParliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

4:25 p.m.

NDP

Rosane Doré Lefebvre NDP Alfred-Pellan, QC

Mr. Speaker, as a member of Parliament, I would rather rise in the House under different circumstances to discuss our safety and the incredible work that Parliament's security guards do. Nevertheless, I will do it because the government is once again—this is a record—using time allocation on an extremely important motion that affects all members of the House.

Before starting my speech, I would like to say a few words about the incredible work that all of the constables working in Parliament do, be it today, before October 22, or on October 22 in particular. I have never for a moment felt unsafe here. They do amazing work.

They have received incredible training. I doubt that anyone in the world is trained better than them for this kind of work, and I thank them. It is always a pleasure to see them do their work every day. They put their lives on the line, and they put our safety first, not theirs, so the least we can do is honour the work they do every day; today I would like to thank them.

At the same time, we are talking a lot about the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, since this motion seeks to give the RCMP control over security on Parliament Hill. I do not want members to engage in demagoguery in this debate. RCMP officers also do a fantastic job on the ground, in places where they are supposed to do it. They protect the lives of Canadians in our country's communities and they do an incredible job.

I am fortunate to be a member of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security and to share responsibility for the public safety file for the official opposition with my colleague from Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca. We have had the opportunity to meet RCMP officers when examining bills or holding discussions on a variety of topics. I know that they have a very difficult job to do on the ground, but they do it well. We saw a good example of this last week in Halifax when they thwarted what could have been a serious attack in a Halifax shopping centre. By thwarting that attack, they really did a great job of making sure everyone was safe.

I want to thank our RCMP officers for the excellent work that they do, which is greatly appreciated by all Canadians. It is important to point that out here because we do not want to engage in demagoguery by saying that one is better than the other. The constables on Parliament Hill and the RCMP are two extremely different entities that do very different jobs. However, it is important to point out that they both do their jobs well. Why? Because the motion proposes that the RCMP take control of parliamentary security.

I understand that an extremely serious incident occurred on October 22. It is making us rethink how security works on Parliament Hill.

All parties in the House agree that our security needs to be modernized a little. One suggestion that has been made repeatedly is that we must ensure that security for the House of Commons and the Senate work together. We often hear that in the hallways, where we discuss it as parliamentarians. I think that makes sense.

The thing about this motion that does not make sense is that at present, our security service reports to Parliament as a whole. Security therefore reports to all parliamentarians. It goes through you, Mr. Speaker, and it also goes through our sergeant-at-arms. Those individuals have control over what happens and they ensure our safety. They also protect our privilege as parliamentarians, which is very important. That is how it works here, but not only here. That is also how it works in practically every country with a parliamentary system.

The government is trying to impose its decision. An article in The Globe and Mail said that the paper learned from a reliable source that the decision to concentrate all security powers within the RCMP is being driven by the Prime Minister himself. The fact is, the RCMP does not report to Parliament; it reports to the government.

Thus, the government is interfering in these powers in a way that is beyond all belief. Security within the House works very well at this time. All it needs is the right tools and a strong framework to run smoothly. What are the Conservatives doing? They are taking away the Speaker's powers and handing them over directly to the government across the way, which wants to control everything that happens on Parliament Hill. It makes no sense. No one even knows if the motion as moved is constitutional or what our rights are as parliamentarians in all of this.

As the official opposition, we decided to do our job, unlike the government. We examined the motion as moved and found that the way it was worded was not fair and that in order to ensure that the powers of the parliamentary security staff remain within the hands of the House of Commons, we had to modify it. We want to ensure that the motion is constitutional and that the powers are not all mixed up, which is what the Conservatives want. Thus, we want to amend the motion.

I would like to read the main motion with our proposed amendment. I think it makes perfect sense:

That this House recognize the necessity of fully integrated security throughout the Parliamentary precinct and the grounds of Parliament Hill, as recommended by the Auditor General in his 2012 report and as exists in other peer legislatures; and call on the Speaker, in coordination with his counterpart in the Senate, to prepare and execute, without delay, plans to fully integrate the work of all partners providing operational security throughout the Parliamentary precinct and the grounds of Parliament Hill, while respecting the privileges, immunities and powers of the respective Houses, including the ultimate authority of the Speakers of the Senate and House of Commons over access and security of Parliament and ensuring the continued employment of our existing and respected Parliamentary Security staff, whose exemplary work on October 22, 2014, quickly brought an end to the security threat on Parliament Hill.

I think that really captures what we are looking for as parliamentarians. This is really about studying a motion that the government just plain threw in our face. The motion has not been studied in a fair and equitable manner. It also has nothing to do with the recommendations made by the Auditor General in 2012, which was long before the attack on Parliament Hill.

The main motion with our amendment respects not only our privileges as parliamentarians, but also the work of the constables on Parliament Hill.

I hope the Conservatives will vote in favour of this amendment.

Before I continue, I would like to say that I will be sharing my time with the wonderful member for Louis-Hébert, my renowned colleague from the Quebec City region, who I am sure will give an excellent speech.

As I was saying, it is important to study this motion. I hope that the government will consider our amendment, because we have been asking the members on the other side of the House all kinds of questions, but we still do not know whether the government will vote for or against the amendment.

I sincerely hope that I will see hon. members from the other side of the House rise, not just to ask me questions, but also to tell me that they will support or oppose our amendment—which, in fact, provides the perfect opportunity for everyone to agree on the importance of keeping Canadians safe. Our safety is important, but let us entrust the security guards who are here with our safety. Let us trust in their abilities. They are the best people to ensure the safety of Parliament Hill, not just for us parliamentarians, but also for the people who come to visit us every day. It is extremely important for us to trust them and also to trust the Speaker—I say that for the benefit of the members across the way—because these are powers that are in his hands to protect the immunity of the House.

I see that I am running out of time. Time flies when we are talking about good things such as the amendment proposed by the official opposition.

I look forward to getting questions that I hope will come from the government side. I also hope that the Conservatives will realize that it is important for all of us to work together to ensure that we have the best possible motion and not put all our eggs in one basket.

Consideration Resumed of MotionParliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

NDP

Alain Giguère NDP Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for her eloquent speech that was respectful of all of the security forces that keep us safe.

It is essential to know who will decide. That is my question for the member. Consider a situation where a terrorist attack is under way in a number of foreign parliaments. As a security measure, an RCMP officer decides to shut down the Parliament of Canada. This decision is final, under the new law. Previously, all members of Parliament made the decision. We might have decided to shut down Parliament, but we also might have decided to keep Parliament going as a response to terrorism.

How will the new law change this situation?

Consideration Resumed of MotionParliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

NDP

Rosane Doré Lefebvre NDP Alfred-Pellan, QC

Mr. Speaker, that is a very good question from my colleague from Marc-Aurèle-Fortin. He raised some very interesting points.

I think that the government is completely confused about this issue. I do not think it knows exactly what it wants to do, and it is using a number of events for political gain, which is sad.

The day after the attacks on Parliament Hill, or even in the statements that were made after other attacks, when we came back to the House on October 23, it was clear that everyone wanted to work together to keep all Canadians safe. Together we all had the same ultimate goal.

The Conservatives are working and playing games on their own. They could not care less about what is going on and what kind of impact it could have. There is a lot of confusion. I do not think they have truly thought through everything that could be included in this motion.

When this motion was moved, the RCMP said that it was not prepared to take over security on Parliament Hill, which is twice as bad.

Consideration Resumed of MotionParliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

NDP

Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe NDP Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for her speech.

I would like to go back to one aspect of the motion that she focused on, specifically the part where she referred to one of the Auditor General's recommendations. Would she mind repeating that part and explaining what it is about?

I was a member of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts for two years. I tip my hat to the Auditor General's team—they do exceptional work. As a committee member, I was very often frustrated by how the government sometimes cared about the Auditor General's recommendations and sometimes did not.

I think it is interesting how that rigorous research was used to draft a motion. Can she tell me more about that?

Consideration Resumed of MotionParliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

NDP

Rosane Doré Lefebvre NDP Alfred-Pellan, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague from Pierrefonds—Dollard for her question because this is key to the amendment that we want to make to the Conservatives' main motion about security on Parliament Hill.

In his 2012 report, the Auditor General said we should have better security. Canadians might not know this, but currently, we have House of Commons security and Senate security. To improve security on Parliament Hill, the Auditor General recommended merging the two or at least ensuring better communication between them.

That is what the official opposition's amendment to the motion is about today. We have to make sure that the entire parliamentary precinct is working together to ensure absolute security everywhere on Parliament Hill. I think this could solve a lot of problems instead of creating more problems by adding an external force that would report directly to the government instead of to you, Mr. Speaker.

I believe that we can all work together. We work with very generous constables who work extremely well. Why not trust them and implement the Auditor General's recommendations?

Consideration Resumed of MotionParliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

NDP

Denis Blanchette NDP Louis-Hébert, QC

Mr. Speaker, hockey season is in full swing. In June, one team will win the Stanley Cup. Imagine if come September, all those players end up in the American league. No, my comment is not out of order; I will speak to the motion and you will see what I am getting at.

I am wondering what the hurry is. This motion is not the result of a recommendation by the joint advisory working group on security. In fact, the group was not even ready to make its recommendations. We know where it is heading and that is fine. However, the Conservative motion has been expedited and we should know where we are going with it. The motion states that this new system will be enforced without delay, although we have no idea how things will actually work. It is sort of a blank cheque. The members on the front benches have not told us where we are heading with this motion. The Lord only knows, but I sure do not.

There have been many speeches concerning security-related incidents on Parliament Hill. Each time, the NDP mentioned how important it is to co-ordinate the work of everyone involved. This is nothing new and we continue to believe that. Ultimately, what we are doing on this side of the House, Mr. Speaker, is defending your powers. We want the existing security services to continue to maintain order on the Hill. Despite the good work done by the RCMP on the ground, we do not want control over this work to be taken away from Parliament Hill's security services. It is not very complicated.

Some members on the other side have said that the changes are insignificant. There is nothing insignificant about directly changing how orders are managed, reported and given. The government is interfering with this Parliament's freedom to work independently. Some will say that I am paranoid. However, one day, Mr. Speaker, you may no longer have the right to say “Order”, because that will be someone else's responsibility.

I said at the start that we support the integrated co-ordination of security. Evidently, our security services need better integration, better co-ordination, better communications, better equipment and better training. In short, they need resources, training and tools. We do not need to change everything. We have learned some lessons from the events that took place. We want to improve the processes and we want to do something worthwhile. Nevertheless, there is no need to change everything. We can do all of this without necessarily turning everything upside down, as the government wants to do with this motion.

Furthermore, this would be a lot to ask of the RCMP. On the one hand, we would be asking them to do their job on the ground, and on the other hand, we would be asking them to ensure the security of Parliament Hill. Who would the RCMP report to? To the Minister of Public Safety, of course. That is the hierarchy, and it is only natural for RCMP officers to think so. That is part of their training. Incidentally, our former sergeant-at-arms was a former RCMP officer, but he worked in the context of the House. There is no reason not to continue working in this fashion, only with better tools. The RCMP is not a security agency. It is much more than that. RCMP officers do an excellent job on the ground and they should continue to do the work they excel at. On this side of the House, we do not want officers to have to do things that they are not trained to do and that they do not necessarily want to do either. With the kind of training they are given, they can do other things besides act as security guards.

The government's motion was based on the Governor General's report, but the report talked only about integrating, without saying how. What is more, the government has never said what it is trying to accomplish. Will handing the whole thing over to the RCMP improve things? I have yet to hear anyone across the way tell us what we stand to gain from this.

They say that the government will ensure that the staff currently assigned to parliamentary security will keep their jobs, but no one seems to know how that will work or whether all the jobs will be kept. When a security guard retires, will he be replaced by an RCMP officer?

The security guards are worried about their futures, and the future of their group. Let us not forget that. We have to think about the impact our actions will have on other people. The government wants to improve Parliament's security, and everyone in the House agrees on that. However, we cannot go about this in any old way and forget what was done in the past.

During the sad events of October 22, these guards gave us their all, and we recognized that here when we gave them a lengthy ovation. Despite that, a few months later, the government is now moving this motion. Let us put ourselves in their shoes. They must think that their actions have already been forgotten and are not worth very much. It is extremely unfortunate that the Conservatives seem to want to move on with something else to solve a problem.

Mr. Speaker, this calls to mind the expression, “you do your job and I'll do mine”. It is very important for everyone to have a specific role in providing security to Parliament. We currently have different groups that provide security here and that provide security for all those who visit Parliament on a daily basis. We are talking about the security of not just parliamentarians, but also visitors. That is how Parliament can be open to visitors.

This motion represents an arbitrary decision. It is unfortunate that the government did not wait for the findings set out in the report of the joint security committee. The government ignored the separation of powers and used the tragic events of October 22 to advance its own agenda instead of trying to resolve the fundamental problems.

Our security officers are dedicated. They have proven their courage and bravery. They do not deserve what is happening to their profession. Their service won them the Stanley Cup. I do not think they should be sent down to an American league.

Consideration Resumed of MotionParliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Raymond Côté NDP Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague from Louis-Hébert for his very enlightening speech.

I cannot resist quoting from House of Commons Procedure and Practice, second edition. I would like to draw the attention of my colleagues to pages 121 and 122:

Police forces also may not enter the precinct to investigate the commission of an offence without permission from the Speaker. Cases have arisen where representatives of outside police forces have wanted to enter the precinct of Parliament for purposes of making an arrest, conducting an interrogation or executing a search warrant within the terms of the Criminal Code.

It states that the Speaker has the authority to grant or deny this, but that the Parliamentary precinct and the Parliament buildings are not a sanctuary or refuge for elected members. This privilege has been strictly defended by the Chair for decades.

I would like my colleague to comment on how the Chair has fiercely defended parliamentary privilege even against police powers of investigation.

Consideration Resumed of MotionParliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Denis Blanchette NDP Louis-Hébert, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague from Beauport—Limoilou for his question.

He is obviously alluding to the separation of powers. Our current system is quite appropriate in that Parliament's security service is independent. The RCMP is responsible for security outside the building. Therefore, we already have a record of co-ordination and recognition as part of this Parliament's history and tradition.

By adopting this motion, the government is breaking with Canadian parliamentary tradition. Did the members of decades past really go down the wrong path by maintaining this distinction? I do not think so, and I prefer to rely on their wisdom rather than follow the government's new path.

Consideration Resumed of MotionParliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

Mr. Speaker, the question I would like to ask my colleague has to do with a concern I expressed to the government in a letter to the Minister of Public Safety, the Chief Government Whip, the Prime Minister and all party leaders.

This country has three branches of government: the executive, the legislative and the judiciary. The separation of the three branches and the division of powers have always been respected. If people saw that the RCMP was responsible for our security but was reporting to the government, it could be interpreted as an infringement on the division of powers and parliamentary supremacy.

I would like to hear what my colleague thinks of that.

Consideration Resumed of MotionParliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Denis Blanchette NDP Louis-Hébert, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his question.

Once again, it is a question of the separation of powers, that is, the ability of each branch to act freely and independently in order to ensure the balance that is essential to our Parliament and our operations.

It is important to recognize that the people who ensure our safety play an important role not only because of what they do, but also because of what they represent. Those are your agents, Mr. Speaker. They work for you and they help ensure order and security within the precincts of Parliament. They do an extraordinary job.

Since I have been here, I have gotten to know them and like them. They deserve better than this government motion.

Consideration Resumed of MotionParliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak on behalf of this motion. I have listened to the conversations across the aisle and I heard some equation to hockey. This is not about hockey. With all due respect, this is a very serious matter. It does not just address October 22. October 22 brought the matter to a very forceful light to us all.

On October 22, we were all very fortunate, the members in the House and Canadians who were also present here. We have an excellent security system with our security people inside the building and the RCMP on the outside, but that day we were faced with one individual with a lever action rifle. Had we been faced with more than one person with semi-automatic weapons, we would have been in a whole different situation.

The motion, with all due respect, would build upon some of the things that have already gone on. When I came here in 2004, our security people were not properly armed. I believe they have been far more armed and far more trained, and that is so appropriate. They do a superb job.

However, this is not about pitting our people in the security service in the House with the RCMP. This is about how we go forward to ensure the precinct stays safe, both inside and outside.

I forgot to mention, Mr. Speaker, that I would like to split my time with the member for Prince Edward—Hastings.

When we look at the motion, it is not about what my friends suggest on the other side, which is getting rid of the security people. It is not that at all. However, it would allow us to fulfill our duty as elected officials, to protect the safety of visitors, staff and members. As we go forward, it is important that we have that connection. As we are well aware, right now we have four different security agencies. We are trying to put two of them together right now, with the Senate and the House. However, on the outside, we have the RCMP and Ottawa city police. This is a vast area, so control is important.

On this side of the House, I believe we have 10 or 12 former police officers, members who have been connected with law enforcement. They understand the need to have some central control. That is certainly not to mean that every police agency, security agency and all of that would come under one. That is not it at all. It is so we would have some control and opportunities for people to have the communication that is so vital.

As the Auditor General indicated in his 2012 report on parliamentary precinct, our security forces would benefit from integration under a single command, allowing them to respond to situations much more efficiently and effectively. This is all about that.

As I said, if we had been faced with far more planning by the individual who came into the House, with different weapons and perhaps more of them, we would have been in hard times. This would have been a hard-pressed situation for the excellent security people we have here and for the RCMP on the outside.

It is time that we looked at this in a more modern vision to put these things together.

We have already said in our motion that our existing parliamentary security people are absolutely valued and respected. There is not a person in the House who is not grateful for the selfless work they do every day. That is why I am pleased the motion before us today states that their continued employment is assured.

I am also pleased the motion before us stresses that the rights and privileges of Parliament will remain respected as per our constitutional, conventional and historical practice. That is something I hear challenged on the other side. It is right in the motion that those things will continue. The rights and privileges of Parliament will remain unchanged, including privileges for the House of Commons and the Senate to control their own precincts and the rights of members to come and go unimpeded.

All of the discussions that come from the other side are all about us trying to minimize our current security personnel. That is not true. We respect our security people a great deal and we appreciate them. However, as we have found that in several other countries, such as Australia and the United Kingdom, they have had to merge into a single system to provide security. They have gone through those things. As we saw just this weekend in Halifax, we do not know where those problems will come from. In the Halifax situation, it would be alleged that there was certainly more than one individual and maybe more than one firearm.

We need to think about that in the bigger picture and not only on October 22. Our people did an excellent job on October 22, but it is about October 22 next year and what we may face.

The integration of the House of Commons and Senate force is a great first step. This motion would build upon that as we go forward.

I also firmly believe this motion builds on the Auditor General's recommendations and would give us the kind of security we need. It would balance the desired level of access with sufficient security to ensure risks are mitigated.

The government is committed to making this a better and safer place. I urge all members to support this motion so that you, Mr. Speaker, can move forward expeditiously with the Speaker fo the Senate.

Consideration Resumed of MotionParliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

NDP

Raymond Côté NDP Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his speech. I must nevertheless say that I am astounded by both his tone and the substance of what he told us.

I am proud to wear the pin that I received when I was sworn in as an MP. As everyone knows, this pin represents our position, but it is also a pass that enables us to circulate freely. Randomly connecting attacks that may have taken place elsewhere in the country or in the world with our fundamental freedom of movement, and especially with our freedom of speech and expression to represent our constituents, seems totally out of line to me.

We are getting away from the substance of this debate, which actually goes against your own authority, Mr. Speaker. This House is the legislative branch, which is independent from the executive branch. Why is my colleague perpetuating this confusion?

Consideration Resumed of MotionParliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Conservative

Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON

Mr. Speaker, first, I am glad the member was also sworn in and received a pin that recognizes him as a member of Parliament. However, with all due respect, we are talking about the security of the precinct.

Life has changed in the last 10 years, life has changed in the last 148 years, and we must change with it. When we see what happens around the world with pressure-cooker bombs, shoe bombs, in addition to firearms, we know there is a need to enhance the security of this place.

Our people do a fantastic job, but we need to give them more tools and more opportunity to deal with outside agencies. This is not a closed circuit anymore. We all need to be involved in the whole area of security. It is so important we do this and move forward.

Consideration Resumed of MotionParliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

Mr. Speaker, the government's motion does not specify that the RCMP would have to report to Parliament. Therefore, the interpretation could be that it would be reporting to the government, and that could be seen as undermining the authority of Parliament and not respecting the division of powers.

I have written to the government suggesting that the Conservatives perhaps consider amending their motion so that if the RCMP is chosen to do the united force security of the Hill, both inside and outside, it would do so through a contractual agreement, which would also specify that the RCMP would report to the parliamentary authorities, and they are the Speakers of both Houses.

Would the member for Oxford care to comment on that?

Consideration Resumed of MotionParliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON

Mr. Speaker, the motion does not take anything away from the existing authority of the House. It would operate under the domain, for lack of a better word, of the Speakers of both the Senate and the House. When we set up straw dogs, such as what about this or that, we need to think in terms of the bigger picture and the security.

This motion does not take away any of the privileges from anybody in the House, and it leaves the security of the facilities with the Speakers of both Houses.

Consideration Resumed of MotionParliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

Green

Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Mr. Speaker, I find the motion before us unnecessarily vague. If it is as the government members would have us believe, as the hon. whip has put it to us, that this will not demote the House of Commons security team, then let that be clear in the motion.

The motion is so unclear. It says that the employment of the security guards is assured. Their employment where? Is it here in this place in their current roles and functions? That is not at all what the motion says, although that is the spin that has been given to media. I have talked to many reporters who have said that this will not change. They are being told by Conservatives that the RCMP will be in charge in some way, but the House of Commons security guards will still be the people present in the House.

Nothing about this is clear. It is deliberately vague and, in that sense, it is also unconstitutional. The way our rights and privileges are stated, this motion leaves it wide open, as other colleagues have suggested, to the abuse of our very constitutional principles and foundations.

Consideration Resumed of MotionParliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON

Mr. Speaker, I think my hon. friend has not read it entirely. As the motion is written, we would end up with the same rights and privileges that we have always had.

It is interesting that she would specifically mention the security people who work in this place. We have security people who work in other buildings in the precinct. They are still there, and they will be there. It is very clear that those positions will be retained.

That is the role they fill, and they are doing a great job. I do not know why she would try to turn this around so that people would be out of work. That is not the case.

Consideration Resumed of MotionParliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

February 16th, 2015 / 5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Daryl Kramp Conservative Prince Edward—Hastings, ON

Mr. Speaker, we are all proud Canadians, and we all recognize that the House of Parliament is an important symbol of Canada's democracy. It really exemplifies who we are and what we are, and the history is an expression of what we stand for as humanity and as a beacon in the world.

We have visitors here. They are not just parliamentarians and the people who work here. Tens of thousands of people come to the parliamentary precinct every year. They tour the grounds freely and at any time, day or night. As such, the precinct is an obvious target for those who wish to hurt Canadians and impede our way of life.

It is our responsibility as elected officials to take the measures to ensure the safety of all Canadians, especially those who work to support this bastion of democracy. That is why we believe we must enhance security. Most of my colleagues in the House agree with that.

Where we do disagree, to a certain extent, is how we will do this, because we have to meet the evolving threats. Canadians and their elected representatives are safe when they are inside this precinct or, at least, they thought they were. Of course, October 22, 2014, changed that thought.

Regarding enhancing our parliamentary security, I was very fortunate to sit on public accounts committee, like my friend across the way. The Auditor General's 2012 report recommended a unified security force for the precinct under a single point of command, making it possible to respond to situations more effectively and more efficiently. Sadly, as parliamentarians what have we done about that? Obviously, we have not done enough.

The time for action is now. The integrated security model we are debating today is in keeping with that recommendation of the Auditor General, balancing the level of access to the public, while ensuring that the security threats and rifts are alleviated.

Security forces have always been present on Parliament Hill, but these threats did not really manifest until recently. We live in a different world from that of 30, 40, or 50 years ago, when the idea of terrorism did not really exist. As we, visiting delegations and others witnessed on October 22, 2014, either in our committee rooms or in our respective offices on the Hill, that threat is very real. If it is taken lightly, innocent people will become victims.

Let me just speak for a second about our security forces of which we are so proud. On behalf of all parliamentarians and Canadians, I honestly thank each and every one of them. They did most of the right things on October 22, 2014. I say “most” and not “all” because there are lessons to be learned. However, our Hill security was absolutely incredible. We have witnessed that first hand as we have had the opportunity to work with it.

We are not saying that one is better than the other or that we have to pick and choose. This is a team approach. It is a team that works together here. We are a team of parliamentarians. Whether we agree or disagree a little bit now and then, we are a team going forward. We try to make the right decisions for the right reasons to help Canadians across the country.

However, we do need a seamless and integrated system, and that has to be led by one entity. That entity should have a national presence, with a connection to all of the other things beyond just security at the door here. Security is not just guarding the precinct. It is rapid response training. It is security assessments. It is intelligence. It is observation. It is surveillance. It is the whole ball of wax that encompasses what it means to keep people safe. It is also our armed forces. It is a coordination of everything. We cannot have more than one group or individual disseminating all of that information. It just does not happen and it cannot happen effectively.

That is why we have to come to the point where the silos of operation are one thing. The silos of management and command have to be totally eliminated so we have one integrated command in order to be effective.

Other countries, such as our allies, the United Kingdom and Australia, have pursued integrated security models at their locations. However, on the day of the attack here, there were four silos of authority with different jurisdictions, as all of my colleagues know.

There were our respected House of Commons security and our Senate security, all responsible for their respective bodies, and they did their work well. There was the RCMP in charge outside, between the front doors and the front gate, where there were a lot of things done well, but there were obviously errors and omissions there. As well, we had the Ottawa city police beyond that point.

The bureaucracy of these four silos stands in the way of bringing us proper security.

The motion we are debating today calls on the Speakers of the House and Senate to invite the RCMP to lead operational security. The RCMP would not run the security of this entire precinct lock, stock, and barrel, but simply operate as a point of command and take responsibility for ensuring that it builds a collective team to come up with the model that we need to make security work well here. This is the administrative starting point, in my mind. It is not the end run. This is the administrative starting point that is going to take us to where we need to go.

A unified approach is critical to ensuring security on the Hill. As a matter of fact, it is not only critical but essential. That is why this government is proposing to fully integrate security throughout the precinct under the operational leadership of the RCMP, thus providing one chain of command and one point of accountability.

Somebody has to be the bottom line that we can go to and ask what is being done and how it is being done. In this particular case, the RCMP will work with the Speakers and the various other levels of justice, administration, and security to come up with the best means to do this. This would allow for access to all types of resources.

The only administration that has the resources we need to encompass the entire range of security, including surveillance, communication, international relationships, terrorism, or cyberattacks, is the RCMP. That does not mean that the RCMP will manage and micromanage every department here to tell all the departments how to do their jobs. Members of the existing parliamentary security, as has been mentioned by all of my colleagues who spoke before me, are highly valued and respected. We respectfully honoured them and their bravery as they marched into the House and got a standing ovation from every person in this room because we were so thankful for the wonderful job they did on our behalf. They serve a variety of functions, not just in the House of Commons, and this will continue under the integrated security unit.

I want to stress that all decisions related to the integrated security unit will ensure continuous employment. This is not a question of just getting rid of a few people and bringing in others or saying they do not have responsibility for something anymore and that someone else will do it. There are going to be responsibilities, but there still has to be one chain of command. That is the point.

Over the coming months, a detailed implementation plan will be developed in consultation with all the people involved. It will outline a phased approach to the implementation of the fully integrated security model, while ensuring that the rights and privileges of Parliament and its members continue to be respected, as per the Constitution.

As I have said, that is explicitly in the motion. Were it not in the motion, quite frankly, as a member, I could have had some difficulty, because I want to respect what we have here. I want to respect the parliamentary tradition and the history, values, and principles that we have in civil society, but that does not mean we can operate without an integrated command.

It is our objective to implement this transition as soon as possible, in partnership with all the security partners. I really believe speed is critical. The need exists. We cannot just sit around and wait for months or years, because we are absolutely sitting ducks in this place and in this precinct. That is a sad situation. We have to come to terms with that reality.

As a number of my colleagues said, if it had been a serious, planned attack by multiple people carrying automatic weapons, many of my colleagues might not be here today. That is the reality. We have to get off our butts and deal with this, and we have to deal with it now.

I know there will probably be questions from my colleagues. I respect them very much for their contributions today. I am expecting a colleague whom I work very well with to get up shortly. I will certainly wait for their questions and see if we can work together on this issue.

Consideration Resumed of MotionParliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

NDP

Djaouida Sellah NDP Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

Mr. Speaker, I listened carefully to the speech given by my colleague opposite.

Let me just say that I find our government's response to this attack absolutely shocking. The government is going to put our security services in the hands of those who failed that day—I recognize the work of the RCMP, but that day, the RCMP failed in its duty. The government is going to give the RCMP jurisdiction over the security force that managed to stop the individual, our House of Commons security service.

I would also like to point out that the motion, which uses the October 22 attack as an exercise or an excuse to give the RCMP more power, is an insult to the brave men and women who protected us so well that day.

My question for my colleague is clear: does he not think that the purpose of this motion is to take control over security in this precinct away from our Speaker and our parliamentary security services and give that power to the RCMP, which, as we we know, is controlled by the government?

Consideration Resumed of MotionParliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Daryl Kramp Conservative Prince Edward—Hastings, ON

Mr. Speaker, it is really unfortunate that the member would make that assertion.

The member made the statement that the RCMP failed on this. That is absolutely incorrect. One of the problems we had was that there was no real level of accountability for who was in charge, so I think we as a nation have to accept that we have failed. We as parliamentarians were part of the problem here as well, in that we did not set forth a clear plan and a clear direction through which there would be an integrated command so that there would be levers of accountability. That is what we need. That is what this bill is all about. It is so that we actually have a proper plan.

Quite frankly, to suggest that we are doing this because we want to replace one of the security forces here is shameful.

Consideration Resumed of MotionParliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

Mr. Speaker, I have worked with the member for Prince Edward—Hastings and I have a lot of respect for him.

The question I have for the member is along the lines of the question I posed earlier. I do not have a problem with a unified force that would respect our guards, and I think that is what everyone in this House is saying. I do not have difficulty with it being the RCMP. My difficulty would be if the RCMP had to report to the government as opposed to reporting to Parliament.

What does my colleague think about the notion of including such a measure in the government's motion, so that it is clearly stated that once the RCMP becomes the unitary form of security to ensure the security of all of us on the Hill, including our staff and visitors both inside and outside, that it is also stipulated in the motion that it reports to parliamentary authorities and not the government?

That is not clear now. I would like to hear the member's comments on that notion.

Consideration Resumed of MotionParliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Daryl Kramp Conservative Prince Edward—Hastings, ON

Mr. Speaker, I likewise appreciate the contribution the member has made through the years and the manner in which he deals with an issue.

Quite frankly, I do not have a problem with the spirit of the amendment proposed by the member. I think it is honestly well intentioned, and quite frankly, if it were to be ignored, we would have a problem. However, it is my understanding on reading the motion that while it does not explicitly say it, it does say:

....while respecting the privileges, immunities and powers of the respective Houses.

To my mind, that is pretty darn clear.

I would agree with the member if all a sudden this House of Commons became chief cook and bottle washer for the entire situation, but that is not the case. It is up to us to set the rules, and it is up to other people to administer those rules. I cannot see any situation in which we would be directing the authorities on safety.

Quite frankly, I understand the member's concern, but I am quite satisfied that the legislation does not take us down that road. However, I thank him for his work on that.

Consideration Resumed of MotionParliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the member for Trois-Rivières.

I am very pleased to stand in this House and debate the motion today on House security, and it does take me back to that day in October. I am sure that the time when this place was in lockdown is on all of our minds. I remember very vividly being quite near the shooter and being ushered into a room by House security. I was standing outside in a corridor. They ushered me into a room for my safety, and then, unarmed, the security personnel went back out into the hallway to confront we knew not what. None of us knew what was going on out there.

I want to add my voice to those of the others in this place who are thanking the brave men and women in the House and Senate security forces who risked their lives to keep us safe on that fateful day. I think we owe them a great debt of gratitude.

I want to say that when the shooter got into this place, he had made it past the RCMP, who guard the outside of the premises here, and it was House security, under the leadership of Kevin Vickers, that stopped the shooter and kept us safe that day.

If the intent of the motion should come to pass and all security for this House, the Senate, and the parliamentary precinct come under the purview of the RCMP, there is nothing in the motion that in any way proves that this place would be one bit safer than it was before or that it would have made any difference in stopping the shooter on that fateful day in October.

I must object to the word in the motion that the Conservatives use in saying that the shooter was a terrorist. There has been no evidence produced to us in this place or in the public to prove that this person was a terrorist. Was he just a lone person who, for whatever reason, got it into his mind that he would do this, or was he in fact connected to some terrorist group? The Conservatives have presented no proof of the latter.

As well, I want to say at the beginning of my remarks how strongly I oppose the government enacting yet again another debate-limiting closure motion on this motion.

This will be the 87th time that the government has enacted closure and limited debate. There has been a grand total of six hours of debate on this very important change. It is a fundamental change that goes back to a system we have had in place since Confederation, one whose roots lie deep in the history of parliamentary democracy. That is what the Conservatives want to change: the origin of the separation of powers between the legislative and executive branches of this place. This is what is impacted here.

I also want to make the point that we are not opposed to the integration of security forces. Several speakers—in fact, most speakers—have repeated that point. In fact, the integration of parliamentary security was already taking place. As this House well knows, the Speaker announced in a bulletin on November 25, 2014, that in fact the implementation of the integration of a unified security force was under way. That was happening.

I want to again reinforce that we support this integration. We are not opposed to the idea of having an integrated security force operating all over the parliamentary precinct. We think that does make a lot of sense.

We are, of course, in favour of improvements that work to keep parliamentarians, staff, and visitors safe in this place. What we are opposed to is that all of the security of both Houses and of the parliamentary precinct would ultimately be under the control of the RCMP, which does not report to this House, as security does today, through the Speaker. It would report to the government.

This House is not a creature of the government. It is in fact a creature of the people of Canada. Parliament is different from the government. Parliament is all of the representatives of the people of Canada, and that is a very important distinction. That is why security in this House has always been separate and independent and has reported to the Speaker and not to the RCMP, which reports directly to the government of the day. That is a very important distinction.

I also want to object to the wording of the motion, which says “as recommended by the Auditor General in his 2012 report”. It kind of implies that this motion is acting on the AG's recommendation. I have read that AG's report, and the Auditor General, while recommending a unified and integrated security force, never once suggested that this should all come under the RCMP. That did not happen.

I would put forward to this House that this motion is misleading. It is taking advantage of a situation that demands action. We agree with action. Everyone agrees with action. However, it would take this action in a direction that would come under the complete control of the government. That is wrong. It is against our parliamentary tradition. It is against the independence of the Speaker and this House.

For that reason, we are not only opposing this motion. We want to support the intention of better security, better training, and better integration. It is for that reason that we have proposed an amendment. The amendment would be a strong improvement, because it would respect the powers of the respective Houses: the House of Commons and the Senate. It would respect those two Houses and the ultimate authority of the Speakers of the Senate and the House of Commons, who today have access and control over the security of Parliament, by ensuring the continued employment of our existing and respected parliamentary security staff. It is about the maintenance of the independent security staff. It is about the independence of the Speaker and his or her control over what happens in this House and therefore the control of the people of Canada over what happens in this House. Certainly, that can happen along with better integration, training, and coordination of those security forces.

We frankly do not see how this particular motion would, first, keep parliamentarians, senators, and Canadians any safer. Nothing is proven. Second, it seems that with its changes, it would be doing nothing more than transferring greater power to the government, rather than improving security for this place.

For these reasons, we believe that the amendment is a much stronger and much improved approach to security in this place. We urge all parliamentarians to support the amendment so that we can get on with the work of better security here, ultimately with the goal we all share of better representation for the Canadian people.

Consideration Resumed of MotionParliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

Mr. Speaker, I find what my colleague had to say to be quite interesting, especially when she said there is no evidence that the person who attacked us on October 22 was a terrorist. If he was not a terrorist, then I would like to know what the definition of one is.