House of Commons Hansard #171 of the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was rcmp.

Topics

Parliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

Mr. Speaker, this motion is very clear. The way it reads, the RCMP is going to “...lead operational security throughout the Parliamentary precinct and the grounds of Parliament Hill, while respecting the privileges, immunities and powers of the respective Houses...”. Furthermore, although he said that this was absent from my speech but in fact it was not, I was very clear that we are not breaking new ground here. This has already been mirrored in other parliaments, such as in Australia and Britain.

None of us in this room are security experts. We are here to create an environment for which the security experts can make those responsible decisions. That is exactly what we are doing. I do not think any of us here is in a position to start debating operational security decisions on a day-to-day basis. We are responsible for making sure that the people who are experts in this and are tasked with it are able to make those decision for all the reasons I outlined in my speech.

Parliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

NDP

Tarik Brahmi NDP Saint-Jean, QC

Mr. Speaker, it is truly astounding to hear that the member for Yukon does not really understand the questions we are asking him. We are not telling him that this is a debate among security experts.

The question is not about who should manage the operational security of the House of Commons and the Senate. The question is why a responsibility that currently belongs to the Speaker of the House, and more generally speaking to all of the parliamentarians who elected the Speaker, should be transferred to the Government of Canada or the executive branch. He did not answer that question and the fact that he did not proves that he is very uncomfortable and that the 10-minute speech that he gave, and that I listened to, is not consistent with the reality that the government wants to control the House of Commons security.

Parliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

Mr. Speaker, I do not know what to say to that.

The New Democrats want to hang on to tradition, which puts the men and women in uniform in this place at risk. They want to hang on to some tradition that puts Canadians at risk. They are abandoning all reason for a sensible and intelligent integration of services and the decisions being made by capable, qualified security experts and would prefer to have that decision-making ability left in their hands.

We recognize that there is a need for change. There is a time for change. I know that change is terrifying for the NDP. However, let us not let change affect the safety and security of Canadians and the men and women who deliver that security for us here on the Hill.

Parliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

February 6th, 2015 / 12:40 p.m.

Conservative

David Wilks Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC

Mr. Speaker, going back to the integration part of the issue, I hear what everyone is saying here, but at the end of the day, this is about sharing information. It is a real challenge as we sit here today with the multitude of different silos available to us to share information quickly and efficiently. That is the challenge here.

From the perspective of the communication difficulties between the different silos, does the member not believe that would improve in the future if the motion moved forward today, not taking away anything from what is in existence today?

Parliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

Mr. Speaker, my hon. colleague certainly has a lot of experience as a former member of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

As he mentioned, integration is about improvements in communication, co-ordination, and clarification of roles, joint training, joint briefings, information sharing, intelligence sharing, and established chains of command and reporting. These are all of things I talked about in my speech.

Of course, when we do that, things will only get better. They are already good. Again, we are not painting a picture of one organization being better than the other. As I said, it is not about that; this is about making sure that they work together.

When they work together effectively with the tools we can give them, they are bound to become the absolute best parliamentary security service in the world. We have a responsibility to give them that.

It will improve the communications, their training opportunities, the tools and equipment we give them and the integration of those tools and equipment.

What will be achieved by that? The Canadian public will then be confident that this place, their place, their home, their Parliament, is still available, accessible, safe and secure and that their parliamentarians are working hard, focused on the job at hand, each and every day, and not worried about threats running through our front door and about the men and women who are trying to keep them safe, because the Canadian public will know that we have done the job to give them the best security system on the planet.

Parliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

NDP

Alain Giguère NDP Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to clarify something.

When the deplorable attack occurred, there were security guards here who were unarmed. Nevertheless, they ran after the suspect armed only with extendable batons. That says a lot about how devoted they are to their jobs. They have the necessary courage and know-how. They did not let us down in any way. These people can be equipped and armed. They need to be. They also need more members on their team.

No one has explained to me why they should no longer report to the House. I do not see why I should ask the Minister of Public Safety and not the Speaker to relax the rules for visitors. We welcome visitors and people in the gallery. What is the process? Why should we have to go through the chief of police rather than asking our internal services when our visitors can be accommodated and what services are available to them?

Parliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

Mr. Speaker, I could not disagree more with the member opposite. I think some of the tools he outlined are absolutely what the men and women here have needed, and we have actually seen great improvement in that in the last few months.

I do not think the hon. member heard me talk at all about redacting anything they have. In fact, I have talked about seeing their training improve, the equipment, the tools, the accessibility, interoperability, training and communication just getting stronger and better.

There are a lot of assumptions being made, including some in the member's question, about what will happen. The operational decisions will be in the hands of those who lead this. It will be a joint decision, not a unilateral decision by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. These will be integrated, because that is how integration works, with discussions, planning, and priorities integrated.

The assumptions being made that somehow anything will be stripped away are wrong-headed, or clearly not accurate. I do not envision any of this taking away anything from the security force, but only improving what they have.

Parliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

12:45 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Speaker, I can only say that I am profoundly saddened by the comments I have been hearing from Conservatives since the beginning of this debate. I believe they are denigrating the heroes of October 22. These are security guards who put their lives on the line.

We have heard from the member for Yukon and from the whip this morning that they are just not as qualified as they should be, and that is why we have to have the takeover by the RCMP.

Parliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

Not once did I say that. Not one time did I say that.

Parliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

12:45 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Let me just tell you, Mr. Speaker, through you to those members opposite, that our security guards—

Parliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

You are full of crap. Not one time did I say that.

Parliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

12:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

Parliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

Order, please. The Chair recognizes that this debate hits close to home and that many people are emotionally involved in it, but I believe I heard the hon. member for Yukon use non-parliamentary language and I would like him to retract that.

I would also like to direct members to avoid using language where the intention is to provoke a response from the other side. I think members can make their points without deliberately baiting one another.

With that, would the hon. member for Yukon like to retract that remark?

Parliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

Mr. Speaker, I will apologize for saying that the member for Burnaby—New Westminster was full of crap and--

Parliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

Order, please. When a member uses unparliamentary language in this place, the Speaker needs to make a determination as to whether it was inadvertent or whether it was deliberate. In almost every case, the Speaker decides that it was inadvertent and gives the opportunity to the member to stand and retract that word or statement. When the member, in so doing, can only be seen to have deliberately used the term again, that is a far more significant violation of the rules and norms of this place, so I am going to very quickly go back to the member for Yukon and ask him to retract what he said and to be more careful in the future with his choice of language in this place.

The hon. member for Yukon.

Parliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

I apologize, Mr. Speaker, I did actually intentionally reuse the word, and it was intentional the first time I used it, and I understand your ruling on that and on parliamentary conduct. For that, I do apologize.

Parliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

12:45 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Speaker, my point is this. The security guards who protect us have some of the best firearms training in the country. They have training in immediate action deployment and VIP bodyguard protection. Our professional staff, the security guards who protect us, have the highest level of training. The government pretends that somehow they do not have the training that is necessary to protect us. It is simply untrue. We saw that on October 22, when through their courage and their action, with the quickness of the actions of former sergeant-at-arms Kevin Vickers and the bravery of Constable Samearn Son, we were protected by the security services on Parliament Hill. They have that high level of training. For members of the government to question that training is simply inappropriate and irresponsible.

The government has suddenly thrown this motion in. This was done without any recourse to the normal process for legislation. Normally legislation is presented so that caucuses can discuss it. It is presented earlier in the week. There are House leaders meetings when legislation that is coming up on the calendar is discussed. To be fair to the government, this is the first time in four years this has been done.

The motion was cobbled together on the back of a napkin. It was thrown together without any respect for opposition members of Parliament, who, as the Speaker just noted, would be profoundly impacted by these changes. It was done with disrespect and in a hurried manner. That is why the NDP, the official opposition, has done its job and has offered an amendment that actually is what the government should have presented in the first place, an approach to the integration of security that does not have the sense of a power grab that we are seeing in today's government motion.

Members of the Conservative Party may agree that the NDP amendment makes a lot of sense. It speaks to integration. It talks about keeping the separation of executive and legislative powers. It would do all the good things without any of the bad aspects of this hurriedly cobbled together government motion.

We have been told by the whip of the Conservative party that Conservative members will not have the right to vote on the amendment. There will be no free vote. There will be no ability of members of Parliament on the Conservative side to represent their constituents' interests and the best interests of the country. They are being forced to vote for a hurriedly cobbled together motion that would have profound negative impacts. Let us talk about these impacts.

First, the heroes of October 22 laid their lives on the line. This would be nothing less than a demotion of those security services. I have talked about the level of training they receive, which is some of the best available in the entire country, yet the Conservatives are saying that it is simply not good enough. Now it will be changed, and they will bring in the RCMP. It is absolutely absurd. That flies in the face of what was the real impact of October 22, which was that we saw how well prepared our security services are.

We certainly need that integration. There is no question there. We support that. That is why our amendment clearly calls for executing without delay plans to fully integrate the work of all partners. Everyone understands that. However, this would be nothing less than a demotion of our security that has done such a fantastic job of protecting us as members of Parliament.

Second, and this is a little more ominous, is that the RCMP has already stated that it is not ready to take over Parliament's security. In a memo that was obtained by The Globe and Mail, RCMP Commissioner Bob Paulson cautioned that there is still so much work to do before determining even what form this should take on Parliament Hill.

This hurriedly thrown together motion, cobbled on the back of a napkin, came out of the Prime Minister's Office. The Prime Minister is driving this. It is not the Speaker. It is not Parliament. There has not been any consultation whatsoever. The Prime Minister has just decided to use the strategic opportunity of October 22. These are words that come back often. In fact, the advisers around the Prime Minister were saying, as the events were unfolding on October 22, that this was a great strategic opportunity.

Instead of having the consultations, getting people together, with Senate security and Parliament and House of Commons security, to actually put in place an effective security plan, the Prime Minister is driving this through under closure, with no appropriate notice, and with no time for caucuses to even consult on this motion. He is driving it through. The RCMP indicates that it is not even ready to do this. How irresponsible is this? What kind of prime minister would drive forward with an agenda, when the agency he is trying to push into place has said very clearly that it is not ready?

There is a third and more ominous aspect overshadowing the rapid, bulldozer attempt by the government to ram this through over what is good common sense, good operational practice, and even democratic norms. Conservative senators are now openly saying that they are going to cut off access to Parliament Hill. There is now going to be new screening down on Wellington Street. They are openly saying that the front lawn of Canada, right in front of the Centre Block, will no longer be the front lawn that allows people to come and maybe actively disagree with government policies.

If the government is planning to move ahead with the process whereby people are stopped, I guess for the Conservatives it has the interesting corollary of actually being able to stop people who may actually disagree with the environment policies of the government, who may disagree with the social policies of the government, or who may say that they do not agree with the budgetary priorities of the government. This strikes to the very heart of why we are here. Canadian democracy needs to be defended.

Canadians need to be able to express themselves. What the government is attempting to do, and according to The Globe and Mail seems to be quite open about, is cut off the access of Canadians to the front lawn of Canada. I would like to tell the Prime Minister that this is not his front lawn. This is the front lawn of all Canadians, and the kind of access Canadians should have to that front lawn is something New Democrats feel is sacred and is a fundamental value of our country that the government should be respecting.

What has been the reaction? We have heard from, for example, the president of the association that represents our brave women and men, who defend us every day, in the parliamentary security service.

The president of the association that ...represent[s] the Commons Protective Service, under the Parliamentary Employment and Staff Relations Act, said in a prepared statement which members of the service distributed to some journalists, said RCMP command over security within the Commons would threaten the independence of Parliament.

“In the view of the association, the RCMP taking operational control of the security within the House of Commons of Canada would threaten not only the perception that Parliament makes it laws without interference, but would also have such an effect in practice,” the statement said.

“Such a possibility would be, in the view of the association, an indefensible and dangerous interference of government into the independent legislative function, as well as a solid breach into one of the foundational pillars of our democratic system; the principle of separation of powers,”...

That was said by the brave women and men who defended us on October 22. That is a statement of profound implications, because it goes beyond what we have been hearing from the government, which I think has been dismissive of the fine training of our security guards in uniform, the fine training that is among the best training available in Canada, and that exists now. It goes beyond the issue of whether the RCMP is ready. The RCMP has said that it is not.

The Prime Minister wants to just drive it through in the same way he has wanted to drive through so many other things that have turned into chaos and catastrophe.

We need only look at the record levels of budget deficit. We see the number of bills rammed through the House that later have been overturned by the courts. The Prime Minister has very poor judgment. When he wants something, when he has a pet project, he does not seem to care about the impact on ordinary Canadians. He does not seem to care about anything but his own little personal political agenda.

Here we have security guards, who have been willing and, particularly on October 22, proved that they are willing to lay their lives on the line every day, saying that this is a dangerous interference of government that would breach a foundational pillar of our democratic system. None of us can say that more eloquently. It is even more eloquent when it is from men and women who prove every day how fundamental our democracy and the freedom and ability to speak is for them. It is so profound for them that they are willing to lay their lives on the line for that. We should heed their call because they have proven with their bravery how strongly they adhere to our democratic principles. We should be thanking them every day for the courage and bravery they have shown.

Instead, we have this motion. It is a slap in the face to those men and women. As well, we have had these comments, first from the whip on the government side, and following that from the member for Yukon, who denigrate the level of training that those men and women have. We know they have the best level of training available, and it is often given through the RCMP. We are not talking about people who have not received adequate levels of training. We are talking about people who have some of the best training, in VIP bodyguarding, immediate action, rapid deployment, and firearms.

The final false argument thrown out by the Conservatives on this, and they have very little to stand on, is that somehow this is something that everybody is doing. I can say right now, the mother of all parliaments and the Australian parliament have their governments work with the opposition to make these kinds of decisions. It is not unilateral. It is not imposed. It is not on the back of a napkin, and it is not in the despicable way that the government has introduced it today. That is something that the government should take as an example. When there are discussions on this, it should involve all caucuses; it should involve all parties. There should be time given to members of Parliament to actually discuss this. Instead, it got a bulldozer approach.

Let us look at our closest partners, our neighbours and friends, the United States. This is something that no Conservative member has mentioned. All of them should be aware of it, but obviously it is not in the notes from the Prime Minister's Office that they are reading from. The United States has had the same discussion in the past and decided to do exactly what the NDP amendment has proposed on the floor of the House of Commons today. The Americans had those discussions, and they decided that the danger, the breach in the fundamental pillars of democracy, was simply too serious. In the United States, they actually abide by the rights and freedoms that are guaranteed in their constitution. What they decided to do was exactly the opposite of what the Prime Minister is trying to ram down our throats today. What they proposed and put into place is the United States Capitol Police, a federal law enforcement agency created to oversee the protection of Congress, legislative processes, members, employees, visitors, and facilities.

Who, on the Conservative side, would be willing to stand up and say that somehow the threats to the United States are less than they are to Canada? There is not a single Conservative who would be willing to say that because he or she would look silly. Yet, for any of us who have been to the Capitol building, we know they have ensured that protection of rights and freedoms but ensured an integrated security system, and they are doing it without destroying the separation of powers. The Americans have managed to do that. Instead of having a Prime Minister ram things through, there was actually discussion in the Senate and the House of Representatives. They decided a century ago that the way the Prime Minister is proposing was a stupid way to go, an irresponsible way to go.

That is why the Americans put together the United States Capitol Police. It provides for those effective protections in an integrated model. It ensures, as well, that those constitutional separations of power are actually maintained.

It is no secret that Canadians fundamentally believe in their democracy. They believe that our business here is to speak to government legislation and opposition proposals, and to have that back-and-forth debate that is so fundamental to Canadian democracy.

They also believe, and they hold very strongly to this, that they should have access to the front lawn of Parliament when they disagree with the government or the opposition. Regardless, they should have access to that front lawn and should be able to speak truth to power without being stopped, or having line-ups that last hours while security clearance is going on away from Parliament Hill. They fundamentally believe that it counts to have democracy and that ability to speak out in Canada.

That is not what we are seeing today. Rather, we are seeing a rapidly cobbled together motion that profoundly contradicts anything that has been said in defence of it by the Conservatives. It demotes a talented and highly trained security team, and ensures—

Parliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

Order, please. The hon. member for St. Catharines is rising on a point of order.

Parliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

Mr. Speaker, there is no issue around an individual in this House presenting his or her position on a particular motion or piece of legislation. That is understood in our democracy.

However, when the member indicates and repeatedly states our perspective on the security folks who work in the House of Commons and makes unfounded accusations about our position and how much we appreciate what security officials did on October 22, that is wrong. I would ask that you tell the member to stop misleading the House.

Parliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

Before I go to the member, I would once again ask all members of this place to be cautious when making their comments. It is already apparent that this debate has incited strong feelings, on both sides.

The hon. member's comment is not a point of order. However, if someone feels that his or her privilege has somehow been violated, that is a separate issue. I would again ask all hon. members to be prudent with their choice of words.

The hon. member for Burnaby—New Westminster.

Parliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

1:05 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Speaker, after hearing the somewhat disturbing comments with respect to the level of training given to security guards, my point is that our security guards have the best training available in Canada and we should support them because of that. No point of order can change what the whip and the member for Yukon said, and they are simply wrong.

If the members on the opposite side really want to support our security guards, then all they have to do is vote for the NDP amendment. Rather than being cobbled together, it is well-thought out and in order. It also ensures an integrated security system that both sides are looking for. It does it without the ramrod bulldozing that the Prime Minister is proposing with respect to putting the security of Parliament in the hands of our security organization, which has stated publicly that it is not ready to take over.

This is a poorly thought-out motion. It was done with complete disregard for the opposition or other members in this House. Therefore, we call upon the Conservative members to disregard the whip on this issue, to stand up for our security guards, for public access to Parliament Hill, and for a security system that preserves rights and freedoms in this country, including the separation of powers. If they vote for the amendment, that will be achieved.

Parliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

1:05 p.m.

Essex Ontario

Conservative

Jeff Watson ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport

Mr. Speaker, I recall that when the sergeant-at-arms and other members of our security were put in front of this House, every single member stood on their feet and supported them. That includes members on this side of the House. We absolutely respect and honour what they achieved on October 22 in our defence.

If we remove the emotion from this and begin to look at the facts of that particular day, it was a single gunman with a single action rifle. It was not multiple gunmen with automatic weapons, not a coordinated effort with multiple gunmen inside and outside the precinct, and it was not some sort of organization with nefarious objectives that was running a sophisticated operation against what goes on here.

If it had been multiple gunmen who were better armed and showed sophisticated signs of planning and executing an operation, the result may have been different that day. It is imperative that there is an agency in place that would potentially have to liaise with the military or interface with intelligence agencies.

Mr. Speaker, with due respect to you, I dare say it is not the Speaker of the House who does that. However, we do know that the RCMP is prepared to do something like that. Can the member address that particular point?

Parliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

1:10 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member just proved the point that the House should support the NDP amendment. The first reason is that the RCMP has said it is not ready.

When the Prime Minister tries to impose a motion on the House with no notice and when the chief operational agency that is targeted by this bulldozer says that we should hold on, that should give Conservatives some pause. That is why they should be voting for the NDP amendment, and they will have a week and a half to think about it.

More important, the member mentioned the security guards. We all stood in the House and praised the security guards. When they tell us that this approach by the Prime Minister is an indefensible and dangerous interference of government into the independent legislative function as well as a solid breach into one of the foundational pillars of our democratic system, the principle of separation of powers, we should listen. That is why Conservatives should vote for the NDP amendment.

Parliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

1:10 p.m.

NDP

Marc-André Morin NDP Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Mr. Speaker, a few minutes ago, I crossed paths with one of our security guards in the stairwell. I was a little distracted. He was very tall. I did not even see his face, and yet he said to me, “Hello, Mr. Morin.” That is very reassuring.

If there were a chaotic situation, like a shooting, I am quite certain this man would not shoot me by accident. The fact that our security guards know us, our staff and often our spouses is reassuring. They are the best qualified to intervene in the event of a tragedy.

I trust them more than some new recruit, fresh out of training in Regina, or any other person who is not familiar with the building, the staff and the members.

Would my colleague like to talk a little more about that?

Parliamentary Precinct SecurityGovernment Orders

1:10 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for the question.

Indeed, the most important issue here is what kind of training these people receive.

I strongly disagree with the comments made by the government whip earlier this morning and what the member for Yukon said later today, when they denigrated that training. I think those comments went too far.

Our security guards receive the best training there is. It is the best training given anywhere in Canada. We are talking about training in VIP bodyguard protection, immediate action, rapid deployment and firearms.

This service is already being provided by people who know us, and it works well. They have shown extraordinary courage and have had the best possible training.

That is why we need to listen to them. We must respect Canada's democratic values, vote in favour of the NDP amendment, and of course, vote against this motion—