René Laurin

[West Coast Ports Operations Act, 1994, February 8th, 1994]

Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that this would have been a fine opportunity to settle a dispute without causing further dissension. I do not think that those involved would go along with the proposed solution, namely the appointment of an adjudicator to choose between the final offers submitted by each side. Neither side, be it the employers or the workers, has chosen to be governed by this forced arbitration process. The hon. minister will correct me if I am wrong, but thus far I do not think that either side has agreed to such a system to reach a final settlement.

To impose this kind of dispute resolution system is to add an irritant. It will cause further frustration while a final settlement has to be reached in the matter of hours.

Since the minister has no other choice but to impose an unwanted system to settle the dispute, at least could the arbitrator be granted more leeway somehow in selecting the contract proposals from either side? Considering that the adjudicator himself as well as the unions and the employers have no say in selecting the resolution system which is imposed upon them, the arbitrator should at the very least be allowed to settle the dispute by deciding what the best course of action is with regard to those unresolved issues.

I think that the hon. minister should minimize friction points and irritants if we want this dispute to be settled. I have been involved in labour relations for 20 years and that is how to find the best solution.

This is my recommendation to the minister in support of my colleague's proposed amendment.

[Pre-Budget Consultations, February 1st, 1994]

Mr. Speaker, I totally agree with my colleague's remarks. More examples could have been given. Mention was made of the inept management of the public service. We could also have mentioned public service renewal, a process that is two years behind schedule. In his report, the Auditor General noted that the public service is absolutely indispensable to the operation of government. He also said, however, that the public service does not have the necessary tools to ensure effective management or the necessary controls to fulfil its obligations to the public.

We could have given you many more examples, but since time is limited, we have to be content with underscoring the principal areas highlighted by the Auditor General. Follow-up action must be taken as soon as possible and the necessary changes must be carried out in order to ensure the sound operation of the House of Commons.

[Pre-Budget Consultations, February 1st, 1994]

I will go on, then, Mr. Speaker. To sum up, I do not know what real benefits have resulted from the activities outlined in the strategy. Were the resources maximized? We do not know whether the funds were spent on native priorities or whether there is a more cost-effective way to obtain the same results. A review of the Canadian Aboriginal Economic Development Strategy is therefore essential and programs must be assessed at that level.

Another example is the Old Age Security and Canada Pension Plan. Pension benefit overpayments are in the range of $120 to $220 million each year, thus increasing administrative and implementation costs by 50 per cent to $260 million. These overpayments represent 0.5 per cent of total payments.

The detection, recording and recovery of overpayments is not being managed in a cost-effective manner. Overpayments could be related to deficiencies in two key program activities: Canada Pension Plan disability reassessment and Guaranteed Income Supplement renewal. The systems and procedures in place for the recording, control and collection of overpayments fell far short of meeting minimum standards for such accounts.

Past efforts to prevent and detect overpayments have been minimal and ineffective. The department responsible does not even maintain information on the extent of overpayments. That is why the Auditor General had to come up with an estimate himself.

Here I would like to quote from the Auditor General's report: "In short, the Department does not have proper control of the overpayment situation. Benefits are paid to those not entitled to receive them. Existing systems do not allow managers to quantify the amounts involved or to manage their collection efficiently. Moreover, the Department is not organized for enforcement activities such as the recovery of overpayment".

There is another example: the Canadian International Development Agency, better known as CIDA. This organization continues to invest in development projects unlikely to be sustained beyond donor countries' financial assistance.

This government agency did not maximize its use of resources and its projects have not led sufficiently to self-reliant development of the countries receiving financial assistance.

It is important to resolve conflicts among multiple goals such as alleviating poverty while pursuing commercial and political objectives.

CIDA must channel its efforts. On the one hand, pursuing multiple objectives to meet the demands of various Canadian interest groups raises costs and diverts us from the intended objective. Commercial and political goals have caused CIDA to scatter its human and financial resources.

On the other hand, new objectives have been added to those of the 60s and 70s such as economic and social policy reform of third world countries; human resources development; the promotion of human rights; sustainable development and environmental protection; finally, delivery channels, program proliferation and CIDA personnel rotation between countries every two to three years.

This situation has increased the administrative burden and made the assessment of project results much more difficult.

Corrective action is needed and the Canadian International Development Agency must act: one, to streamline its operations to be more efficient and effective; two, to review its project management strategy; three, to spell out its accountability to Parliament and the Canadian public; four, to be more open and transparent with regard to its strategic objectives. Finally, information on the results obtained should be made public.

Just think, all these examples are taken only from this year's report, nothing else. The Investment Canada case is a good example of waste by a public servant. In management courses, we learn that officials and other managers often want to increase their sphere of influence by hiring too many employees or asking for operating budgets which are too high. All this leads to irrational spending. Civil servants do not always have the interest or the desire to challenge the government apparatus head on.

That is why we want the committee that will analyze government spending to be made up, not of public servants, but of parliamentarians answerable to the people.

We believe that it is the people's representatives who should ensure that the various programs achieve their objectives and that the public service and the government manage the allocation of public funds fairly, efficiently and economically.

I again quote the Auditor General, who wrote in his report: "Most of the time, Parliament is not provided with adequate information on the results that departments and Crown corporations have achieved with billions of dollars of taxpayers' money". Since parliamentarians do not have sufficient information on the government's financial situation, we think that the cases of waste and mismanagement reported by the Auditor General are just the tip of the iceberg.

A parliamentary committee to analyze public spending could provide Parliament and thus the public with more information on the government's financial situation. On this point, we agree with the Auditor General's proposal to ask departments to provide clear and comprehensive reports in which they would give Parliament an exact accounting of their stewardship by providing results-oriented data on major spending items.

Duplication of programs and overlapping jurisdiction are another waste of public funds. Not many studies deal with this issue, but among those that do, we have one done by the Treasury Board of Canada in 1991. It concluded that for at least half the provinces, provincial and federal programs apparently overlap in about 60 per cent of cases. The unclear division of power, federal interference in provincial jurisdiction and the federal spending power are the main reasons for this duplication and overlap.

The Bélanger-Campeau Commission estimated that a sovereign Quebec would save $233 million on transportation and communication costs and $289 million on the collection of duties and taxes, by eliminating this duplication. The problem is therefore potentially very important. However, no recent studies to estimate the cost of duplication in all provincial and federal programs exist. Some sources estimate the total cost at nearly $3 billion; others put it higher than that.

That is why we ask this House to give the Auditor General a mandate, free of partisanship, to make a serious, complete study of duplication and overlap in all spending programs of the provincial and federal governments.

In conclusion, the Bloc Quebecois thinks that the Canadian government must show that it is doing its part to reduce the deficit by eliminating waste, unnecessary programs and mismanagement of public funds. For this, we ask the Liberal government to stop hesitating and to set up a parliamentary committee to study government spending, item by item.

This is part of a series of measures proposed by the Bloc Quebecois to put the government's finances back on a sound footing, without making the most disadvantaged or the provinces bear the burden of the necessary reduction in the federal deficit.

We also ask the Liberal government to act quickly and energetically to eliminate the cases of waste and mismanagement identified by the Auditor General, which I mentioned in my speech.

[Pre-Budget Consultations, February 1st, 1994]

Mr. Speaker, when I interrupted my speech just before Question Period, I was listing some examples of wasteful spending and poor management of public funds. I mentioned National Revenue, Investment Canada, ministers' travel expenses, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, and I was getting to the matter of student loans.

In 1990, 1992, and 1993, the Auditor General stated that annual ceilings for student loans had been exceeded. In 1993, the annual ceiling had been exceeded by $170 million. According to the Auditor General, action was urgently needed to correct the situation and ensure compliance with the provisions of the Canada Student Loans Act.

We are not against lending money to students. We are aware of the financial needs of students, but the decision to exceed approved ceilings is up to Parliament, not departmental officials.

Another example concerns the Canadian Aboriginal Economic Development Strategy. This strategy would invest $1 billion over a period of five years. Three departments were responsible for implementation of the strategy: Indian Affairs and Northern Development, Industry, Science and Technology and Employment and Immigration. The purpose of this strategy was to address disparities between aboriginal peoples and other Canadians, and its objective was to help aboriginal peoples achieve economic self-reliance.

Between 1989 and 1993, $900 million was spent under the strategy. The Auditor General deplored the lack of harmonization between the departments, which were supposed to co-ordinate their activities and put in place an evaluation framework. Because of this lack of leadership, the framework was not put in place until 1993, four years after the strategy came into effect.

There are also very few ways to evaluate the effectiveness of this strategy. In fact, $900 million is being spent without any assurance that these expenditures are justified.

In 1992, for instance, the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development spent $20 million on 73 economic development organizations in communities considered to be fully developed. On the other hand, it spent $33 million on 296 organizations in less developed communities. No wonder the Auditor General has asked for measures to monitor and evaluate these programs.

It is most unpleasant when one is speaking to the Chair and members on the other side of the House are talking. I think we deserve some respect when we speak on behalf of our fellow citizens.

[Pre-Budget Consultations, February 1st, 1994]

Mr. Speaker, while listening this morning to the hon. member for Saint-Hyacinthe, who described the current financial situation of the Canadian government, noting how alarming is the national deficit's growth and how high is our foreign debt, I came to the conclusion that the future of the next generation of Quebecers and Canadians was not very promising and that we are going to leave a very poor legacy to our children, in fact the worst ever.

The situation is extremely serious and must be corrected. Moreover, in those days of anemic economic recovery, taxpayers are under the impression that the federal government does not do its share to improve management methods and eliminate waste. The Auditor General insists on that aspect in his recent report, when he states that, today more than ever, it is clear to civil servants and parliamentarians that Canadians expect them to manage firmly and cautiously rather than find new ways of spending borrowed money.

As the Bloc Quebecois said during the election campaign, we want a reduction of $10 billion in government spending, including tax expenditures, of which $3 billion would come from a 25 per cent cut in the Department of National Defence's expenditures. Recent information suggests that the Liberals are considering reducing government spending by only $2 billion, excluding the non-recurrent expenditures incurred last year, which amounted to $4 billion. This objective is so low and unambitious that the Globe and Mail had this to say in a editorial published last January 18:

The Liberals are just as complacent about the debt as ever. Either that or they sincerely believe that the federal government is 99 per cent fat free.

The Bloc Quebecois and the Official Opposition are of the opinion that there is some fat within the federal government. One only has to read the newspapers to see that indeed some cuts can be made. Just take for example the controversy surrounding the new Canadian embassy in China, or the travelling expenses of new Liberal ministers.

To eliminate waste, unnecessary spending and mismanagement in the government administration, I reiterate the request made by the Bloc Quebecois for the creation of a parliamentary committee which would examine and review budgetary expenditures item by item. It would be appropriate to set up such a committee. The most recent Auditor General's report clearly demonstrates that Quebecers and Canadians are right to think that the government is wasting some public funds. To illustrate that point, I will use the most shocking examples of waste, unnecessary spending and mismanagement of public money mentioned by the Auditor General.

Let us begin with National Revenue. Because of a flaw in the deduction applying to resources, the government lost $1.2 billion in revenue. If it had, as recommended by the Public

Accounts Committee, a system allowing for quick amendments to a flawed tax expenditure program, the government would have saved a good chunk of that money.

Let us now look at Investment Canada, which spent $132,000 to set up a new office, with kitchen and bathroom for its new chairperson, when in fact the previous incumbent's office in the same building already had all these facilities.

Let me give you another example. Let us take a look at travelling expenses. Travelling expenses linked to the use of the government's Challenger aircraft have reached $54 million, more than half of which is for trips made by ministers. According to the Auditor General, this total amounts to an equivalent of $19,650 per hour.

Is this the best way to pay for our ministers' and other officials' travels? Some say that government airplanes have to be used for security purposes. It may be so, but would the price of a commercial flight providing special security measures for our ministers be over $20,000 an hour? I doubt it very much.

Now, let us turn to Fisheries and Oceans. The Minister of Fisheries and Oceans spent $587 million on the Northern Cod Adjustment and Recovery Program. Out of this amount, almost $15 million was wasted because of mismanagement, according to the auditor general.

The department gave compensation to people who were not fishing northern cod, but other species not affected by the moratorium. Also, payments were made to fishermen who were illegally fishing cod. If I can get 20 more seconds, Mr. Speaker, it would be easier for me to resume the debate later today.

In the meantime, 5,300 people have yet to receive benefits they are entitled to, because the department has some reservations about their eligibility. These stalling tactics used by Fisheries and Oceans Canada are illegal, and we know that all of the coastal communities urgently need that money.

[Taxation, January 28th, 1994]

Mr. Speaker, does the Minister of National Revenue not find unacceptable that the Minister of Finance plans to make seniors the next victims of his tax increases while stubbornly refusing to abolish the tax breaks which benefit the rich of our society?

[Taxation, January 28th, 1994]

Mr. Speaker, we hear all sorts of terrible rumours about the intentions of the Minister of Finance who, it seems, wants to pick the pockets of Canadian taxpayers again.

My question is for the Minister of National Revenue. Does he not think that he should ask the Minister of Finance to spare the already overtaxed middle class and reach instead for the more well-to-do?

[High-Speed Train, January 25th, 1994]

Mr. Speaker, after the contract for the construction of military helicopters was cancelled, the Bloc Quebecois repeatedly insisted that the money saved be reinvested in the development of a high-speed train in the Quebec-Windsor corridor.

In 1991, the Ontario-Quebec Rapid Train Task Force recognized the significance of that project and its economic impact. The task force held extensive consultations during which the public pointed out the need to make the cities along that corridor more efficient if they are to succeed in a competitive market.

The project would create 120,000 direct jobs, plus hundreds of highly specialized and permanent jobs resulting from technology transfers and industrial agreements.

Despite all these benefits, the Prime Minister told the press that the introduction of a high-speed train was not a priority.

We are concerned about the lack of interest shown by the government in an innovative project that would create jobs, promote the use of leading-edge technologies and stimulate research and development in Canada and Quebec.

[Speech From The Throne, January 19th, 1994]

Madam Speaker, I am proud to be given the opportunity to comment on the remarks made by the hon. member for Lachine-Lac-Saint-Louis, and to correct a few historical facts.

The hon. member for Lachine-Lac-Saint-Louis reminded us that Mauritius and Canada had had a similar history, telling us how important it is for him that Canada preserves-as Mauritius did-its reputation as a land of freedom. However, one should remember that before joining the Canadian Federation, Quebec was also a land of freedom, a land of belief, a land of respect-respect for the established order, for men and women, for the family, for the fundamental and traditional values that had made Quebecers-whose ancestors were French-a noble people, proud of its origins.

When Quebecers decided to join the Canadian Federation, they did not do so because they believed they would give themselves new fundamental values they did not have yet; Quebecers decided to join the Canadian Federation because they wanted to develop their own values and to share them with another people, the English Canadians.

Today, when Quebecers are thinking of another way of living, they do not do so because they have something against their partners of 1867 or because they despise English-speaking people; they do so because they now fear the system they had accepted to be part of since that time. They think that system may deprive them from now on of their right to speak, their fundamental values, their traditions and their culture. They are concerned that the Canadian Federation will no more enable them to maintain this heritage they received not from the Canadian Federation but from their forefathers long before the Canadian Federation.

Why is it that the hon. member believes that if Quebec should become sovereign all of a sudden, he would lose all his rights?

Why does he think that if it became sovereign tomorrow, Quebec would not enjoy those same privileges? Does he believe that the Canadian Federation is the only guardian of the fundamental rights of Quebec and that without that federation, without those fundamental values, Quebec does not have a future anymore? I would like the hon. member for Lachine-Lac-Saint-Louis to make some further comments on that, because I do not think that those values were given to Quebecers by virtue of the Canadian Federation. Those were values that they already enjoyed before they entered Confederation.