Bill C-302 (Historical)

Italian-Canadian Recognition and Restitution Act

An Act to recognize the injustice that was done to persons of Italian origin through their “enemy alien” designation and internment during the Second World War, and to provide for restitution and promote education on Italian-Canadian history

The purpose of this enactment is to recognize and apologize for the treatment that persons of Italian origin received in Canada during the Second World War in spite of the contribution that they have made and continue to make to the building of Canada.
The enactment also provides for restitution to be made in respect of this treatment. The restitution payment is to be applied to the development and production of educational materials relating to Italian-Canadian history and promoting ethnic and racial harmony, and to other projects agreed to by the Minister of Canadian Heritage and an educational foundation established for this purpose.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

A point of order, Mr. Chair.

We're discussing my Bill C-302; that's what I'm here for. All of a sudden you've thrown in committee business. I don't know how you run your committee, and you're more than welcome to run it in the fashion you like, but I'd like to continue with this.

Let's finish Bill C-302 and then go on to committee business. Let's finish Bill C-302. There's plenty of time; it's a very small bill. There are only two more clauses, if we could vote on them. Then we can go on to committee business and you can go on to your daily affairs.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to go back to Mr. Bruinooge's comments specifically. He talked a bit about the apology that was made in the House of Commons, I think a very significant apology, for residential schools, something all parties agreed with. I think it was something that was very emotional; it was owed and it was appropriate.

What preceded that were negotiations and the finalization of an agreement. An apology was made subsequent to an agreement being in place. When you don't do that, you open up the government to unlimited liability. Because I started this conversation about legal implications, I want to talk about what the Department of Justice has had to say--not the ministry, not the minister, not the government, but the Department of Justice. These are people who work in the department on behalf of Canadians. This is their criticism or comments on this bill, and members of this committee, who I believe want to be responsible, should pay heed to this. By the way, the amendment makes it worse.

To begin with, it says the bill describes the wartime measures imposed on the Italian Canadian community as “unjust” and refers to “other infringements of their rights”. The bill also refers to the payment as “restitution”. The characterization of the internment as unjust and requiring restitution is not consistent with the position of the government with respect to historical wartime events or immigration restrictions experienced by the Italian Canadian and other communities. The CHRP program or the historical recognition program and the head tax apology are based on the premises that although these events may not have been in keeping with present Canadian values--and this is an important distinction--they were legal at the time.

We can look back and say it wasn't right; we shouldn't have acted that way. So many things were done by groups over the course of history that were wrong, from everything related to religion, to politics, to monarchies, to colonialism that's occurred around the world. These things were wrong, but at the time there was a different view of them. That's the point the Department of Justice is making.

The ex gratia payments to surviving head tax payers and spouses of deceased head tax payers are clearly characterized as symbolic payments, not restitution. This is important.

The Department of Justice is of the opinion that if the Government of Canada were to apologize, as provided for in Bill C-302, it could have negative implications for the government in an active court case where an action has been brought against Canada by an individual for general and punitive damages for his internment during the Second World War.

So we're not saying what if. It's not that this could happen. There is already a case before the courts in Canada where this clause in particular, with the amendment--because we're speaking to the amendment--would make it worse. It would open up the Government of Canada to significant liability because there is no agreement in place.

Passage of the bill might encourage further legal actions of this nature to be filed. The fact that the bill refers to “other infringements of their rights during the Second World War” is a factor that could be significant from a charter liability perspective if other cases were brought before the courts on the basis of Bill C-302.

I brought this up earlier and I said the government in 2005 went out of its way to indicate that these agreements were made on the principles of no compensation and no apology--all of them. We look at what the Department of Justice is saying. It's done that way because passage of bills like this would encourage further legal action. We know we've already got legal action in the court.

I can tell you that the Italian Canadians I know are not looking to expose the Government of Canada to legal liabilities, to legal actions, to court cases that could cost all of us as taxpayers a lot of money. We know we have a lot of priorities in this country. We have a lot of things we'd like to do. Italian Canadians want to see a better, safer, stronger Canada. That's what they want. They want a Canada that can look after its people better. What they don't want is a Canada where millions, potentially hundreds of millions, of dollars are going towards what this bill refers to as restitution.

Specifically with respect to apologies in the House of Commons, there have been apologies in the House of Commons. As I indicated, I was proud to be present for a very significant one. I think Italians in this country would generally recognize that what occurred around the residential schools in this country was a far more significant action, imposed upon a founding people of this country, within this country than what was suffered by the Italian community. I say that, as I've indicated many times, as a person who was directly impacted by the implementation of what at the time was the War Measures Act, which was repealed by Prime Minister Mulroney.

If we can't agree that it was a far more significant travesty that was committed against first nations, Métis, and Inuit in this country than what occurred to the Italian Canadian community—as wrong as that may have been. It's wrong, but on a different level. It's wrong, but on a different scale. And I think it was important that the apology occurred, because, as we all know, we have to start a relationship with our first nations that encourages everyone in this country, that makes everybody feel they're part of this country, that allows for equal opportunity in this country. We have a significant group within our first nations that feels disassociated, and I believe that's largely because in the apology we recognized that with the previous governments and groups that set up the residential schools, the goal of that was to strip away the aboriginal identity. That was clearly wrong, and that was not, by the way, what occurred with Italian Canadians. There was no effort to strip away their identity. It wasn't an effort to break them and to teach them a new way to be a person.

I want to refer to comments made by previous Liberal prime ministers, if you'll just allow me a minute. I'm working, as I said earlier, without my binders.

As has been noted earlier, Prime Minister Mulroney offered “a full and unqualified apology for the wrongs done to our fellow Canadians of Italian origin during World War II”. Those were the words of then Prime Minister Brian Mulroney.

I think we can all agree that when the Prime Minister of this nation speaks, any Prime Minister, it's significant. For people to say that words that aren't stated in Parliament aren't meaningful, I simply don't agree. In fact, some of the most powerful political statements ever made in the history of the world—whether it's in the U.S., in Congress or in the House of Representatives, or in England in their Parliament, or in Germany, their Parliament—simply have not been done inside.

When John F. Kennedy said, “ask not what your country can do for you--ask what you can do for your country”, that was not made inside a political building. It was significant.

When Martin Luther King said, “I have a dream”, that statement was not made inside the House of Representatives; it simply wasn't, but the words were significant because a leader--a leader--stated them.

I heard the comment made that Martin Luther King wasn't elected. Well, that may be, but he was a representative of the people. The statements he made were significant and they weren't made inside of the House of Representatives.

When Winston Churchill said, “Never...was so much owed by so many to so few”, that was also not made in the Parliament of England, and I don't know that more significant words were ever said by a Prime Minister.

But let's look at what some other Prime Ministers of Canada have said.

This is not my writing but the writing of a respected Canadian journalist. “Prime Minister Trudeau arrogantly dismissed the very idea of redressing any wrongs of the past.” In 1984, Trudeau said--I should be clear; this is Prime Minister Pierre Elliott Trudeau, and not a reference to any current members of the House. He said, “The government cannot redress what was done. How many other historical wrongs would have to be righted?” This was Mr. Trudeau's consistently dismissive approach to all questions of redress.

Likewise, under Mr. Trudeau's eventual successor, the Right Honourable Jean Chrétien, the government's message to Italian Canadians was to forget, to look ahead. As Angelo Persichilli has written, Sheila Finestone, the minister responsible for multiculturalism, sent all groups a letter on December 14, 1994, categorically refusing apologies and redress of any sort. She wrote, “We wish we could relive the past. We cannot.”

That was the stance of Liberal governments in the past. Mr. Persichilli also points out that it only seems to be an issue for the Liberal Party when they're not in government or when there isn't an election. That's when it's an issue.

With respect to an apology in the House of Commons, we come back to the amendment being proposed. Why does this amendment make it even worse, in terms of what the Department of Justice has said? Well, it heightens the level of the apology. You're lifting it up to a level equivalent with the apology that was made for residential schools. It's on the same plane, with no agreement, no agreement at all, just an apology that sets the environment such that....

I'm not a lawyer. I don't know whether there are lawyers on this committee, whether there's anybody with a legal background on the committee. I have been in business for a long time, and I know that specific words are significant when it comes to law, and they don't always mean the same thing the way we would use them commonly in society as they mean in law.

When the Department of Justice looks at something and says payments have been classified as symbolic payments, not restitution, when you're classifying something as restitution, that's significant. When you're referring to an act as unjust, that is significant. In law, that is significant, and it leads to charter liabilities in this country.

That's why the Liberal Party was so careful, even in its ACE program. They put legal jargon at the end of the ACE program. Why did they do that? Well, because they looked at it and said, “We could really be opening up a can of worms on the taxpayers of Canada.” It's not about whether what was done was right or wrong, whether it should have happened, whether or not the Italian community has moved on or hasn't moved on; it's about being responsible as an elected member to the people who elected you. How much liability are we going to open those people up to simply because the majority of members on this committee apparently feel we should do that? I don't believe a single member of this committee, other than me, has ever been directly impacted. Even for me, it's only through a relationship to people who have been directly impacted. I'm 39 years old; this happened in 1940.

I can't say this emphatically enough. This specific amendment in this clause is a big problem. It's a big problem. As we saw, all Liberal governments in the past went out of their way, past Liberal leaders went out of their way, to indicate that no apology was owed, nothing was due, let's move on. Their agreements indicate very clearly, as I've said before, that they were made on the principles of no compensation--not restitution. They didn't even use a word as strong as “restitution”. They said, “this Agreement-in-Principle” is “premised on the principles of ‘no compensation’ and ‘no apology’.” Then at the end, as I've indicated, legal jargon. The legal jargon is important. That's what protects the taxpayers. They don't just make it clear under the agreement in principle. They clarify it at the end, where they say:

This Agreement-in-Principle shall not be interpreted as a full and final agreement nor as constituting an admission by the Government of Canada of the existence of any legal obligation of the Government of Canada....

They get that signed, too. If you don't get that signed...and this bill does not do that. If members of Parliament start passing bills like this that have unlimited liability, then we're being totally irresponsible to the taxpayers and we are opening up significant problems.

It's not just with this cultural community, by the way, because the other communities where there are already agreements are already working with the CHR program. By the way, the Italian Canadian community is working with the CHR program--not everyone, admittedly, but they are. For other groups that have already begun to work with the government on these issues, they are then going to turn around and say, “You have acted preferentially towards a group that was affected.” But were they as affected as, for example, the Chinese, with the Chinese head tax?

The Italian internment, it's noted, affected roughly 700 people. As I've indicated, it had broader implications because it led to widespread discrimination against Italians in Canada. It led to an embarrassment of Canadians of Italian descent in this country that they were classified as such. I can speak to that at length because I've lived it. Look at what occurred, for example, to the Chinese Canadian community--and this is the Liberal Party agreement. It says:

This is a first step in articulating their shared vision for the acknowledgement, commemoration and education of Canadians about the imposition of a head-tax exclusively against immigrants of Chinese origin between 1885 and 1923....

That's 38 years of a head tax against one community, exclusively against immigrants of Chinese origin. Before that, by the way, we were bringing in the Chinese in significant numbers to build the railway and putting them in dangerous positions, positions where many of them died, in circumstances where it wasn't healthy. We exploited those people. That's part of our history as well. That was wrong--38 years of a head tax.

If we go back to the Italian agreement, it reads:

This is a first step in articulating their shared vision for acknowledgment, commemoration and education of Canadians on the historic experience of Italians in Canada who were designated as enemy aliens and some of which, as well as some persons of Italian origin, were interned.

Not all Canadians of Italian descent in Canada were interned. For 38 years all persons of Chinese origin who were trying to enter Canada had to pay a head tax. It was discrimination against a specific group.

My grandfather was never arrested. Not everyone of Italian descent in this country was arrested and interned. I don't know what criteria were used for pulling people off the streets, pulling them out of their places of work, pulling them out of their businesses and interning them, the persons of Italian descent who went through that. It was wrong. But it's not on a scale of what happened to the Chinese Canadian community, simply not.

I look at it and say if you are going to open up a liability for this country based on nothing other than politics, it's irresponsible. This specific part of this bill, clause 3, does exactly that. That's what the Department of Justice says. If members would like to get the Department of Justice in to get a direct opinion on clause 3, without a minister, without anyone, just get the facts; if you'd like to hear from lawyers, constitutional lawyers, who could tell you, people who understand the charter who could tell you what this amendment does and what this clause of this bill does.... The potential liability for Canada is significant.

That's why Liberal leaders of the past did not do this, but our government has acted. We have put in place CHRP, a significant program that seeks to work with Italian Canadian communities to recognize the wrongs of the past. That's what we should be doing. We shouldn't be opening Canada up to an unlimited liability. That's what this does, and as I said, this amendment makes it worse.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Welcome to meeting number 40 of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage. Pursuant to the order of reference of Friday, March 6, 2009, we are studying Bill C-302, An Act to recognize the injustice that was done to persons of Italian origin through their “enemy alien” designation and internment during the Second World War, and to provide for restitution and promote education on Italian-Canadian history.

We move today to clause-by-clause consideration. Pursuant to Standing Order 75(1), consideration of the preamble in clause 1 is postponed.

The chair calls clause 2.

Mr. Calandra.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Thank you.

Following up on where we sit here on the committee, you mentioned that some committee members weren't paying attention to the answer. That's too bad, because they made impassioned arguments against the point you were making. I'm glad you had the opportunity to clarify that.

I mentioned that Angelo Persichilli has written a number of articles on this bill, including one very recently. I apologize because I'm going to quote it in English, but it was originally written in Italian.

It says that Bill C-302 is a result of a personal initiative of two deputies who are not sponsored.... It's not a position of the Liberal Party, just of Mr. Pacetti and Mr. Tonks. He goes on to say that the initiative, while it's laudable, is above all politics.

One of the things that I really haven't appreciated in this is that as a Canadian of Italian descent, I firmly believe that Canadians of Italian descent have long accepted that this country apologized when the War Measures Act was repealed in 1988 and specific reference in the House of Commons to the Italian internment was made. Italians forgave. Italian Canadians have been key builders in this country. I think they have both found their place in this society and made contributions.

I think this bill ultimately will divide. We've heard them impugn Canadians of Italian descent here today who apparently aren't good enough Canadians to sit on historical recognition boards.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Welcome, everyone, to meeting number 39 of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage, pursuant to the order of reference of Friday, March 6, 2009, Bill C-302, An Act to recognize the injustice that was done to persons of Italian origin through their “enemy alien” designation and internment during the Second World War, and to provide for restitution and promote education on Italian-Canadian history.

Appearing here this morning is the Minister of Citizenship, Immigration and Multiculturalism, the Honourable Jason Kenney.

Mr. Kenney, go ahead, please.

[Nino Colavecchio]

There are two aspects to the historical

claims our community is making on this front.

One of them was, of course, the apology, and there was an aspect of redress. I think that when the ACE agreement was reached—and I go back to that because it's an agreement that did reach a consensus within the community—there was a financial aspect.

I think what everyone is trying to say here is that the Italian community does not require funds for its survival. We're not here for a handout, not at all, but what we are talking about is that if we are going to embark on a project of educating, of commemorating, and of making sure that this type of situation gets recognized as what happened, there has to be an educational process.

That is why we wholeheartedly support Bill C-302, in that the honourable member, when he proposed this bill, included the fact that this fund would be purely educational. In other words, we are not in a process of bricks and mortar here. What we want to establish is an educational program, which of course would have to be done with the entire community, so when we say the money is not important, what we're trying to say is that it's not like the Italian community requires this for its survival.

[Fernando Forcucci, Immediate Past President, Order Sons of Italy of Canada]

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair. My name is Fernando Forcucci, and I am the immediate past president of the Order Sons of Italy of Canada. I won't bore you with too many details, just a few.

As stated by many honourable members of the Canadian government, this bill is not just about Italians. It is about making a wrong into a right for all Canadians, because most of those interned were Canadian citizens. Canadians of Italian origin like me are made to feel like second-class citizens by my government, which chooses to apologize to other ethnic Canadians, such as the Japanese Canadians and Chinese Canadians, but not to the Italian Canadians.

I've been involved with this file for about 20 years. The spring of 2005 was fantastic for the Italian community, because the government of the day announced that it was willing to resolve this file. After months of negotiation, and with our community united, in November 2005 an agreement in principle was signed by the Canadian government and the four senior organizations: the National Congress of Italian Canadians, the Order Sons of Italy, CIBPA, and La Fondation Communautaire Canadienne-Italienne du Québec.

It was announced that an agreement was reached in principle under the ACE program, which provided for a full settlement in the sum of $12.5 million, which was to be administered for the Italian community by the NCIC foundation. To date, the community is still waiting. We have met with many honourable members of the present government to try to resolve this file, but to no avail. In June 2006, the government of the day eliminated the entire ACE agreement without consulting the Italian community, and it created the CHRP program.

Furthermore, the administration of funds is by Canadian Heritage under CHRP, whereas the Japanese Canadians and Ukrainian Canadians administer their own funds. Does this government not trust our community? Again, I and my community feel like second-class Canadians.

As the immediate past president of the Order Sons of Italy of Canada, and as a member of one of the oldest national organizations in Canada--it was founded in 1915--I and the Order Sons of Italy fully support Bill C-302 and sincerely hope that the file will bring closure to the Italian internment issue.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[Antonio Sciascia, President, Quebec Region, National Congress of Italian Canadians]

My name is Antonio Sciascia. I'm the president of the National Congress of Italian Canadians, Quebec region. I'm a governor of the Italian Canadian Community Foundation. In my capacity as past president of the National Congress of Italian Canadians, on two occasions I have been involved in this very specific issue, and many others, for the last 25 years.

Today I am speaking on behalf of the Italian Canadian Community Foundation established in 1975 with the mission to raise funds for the aid and advancement of the Italian Canadian community and society at large. I underline “society at large” because today the Italian Canadian foundation contributes most of the funds raised--and I must say they're in the millions of dollars--to non-Italian organizations, such as hospitals and other charitable organizations all over this country.

I underline this because the issue today is not one of money. We are not here for money; we are here to claim an apology for the Italian Canadians who suffered all the injustices during World War II.

We support Bill C-302 unreservedly. The foundation was one of the signatories to the agreement in principle signed by the Government of Canada on November 5, 2005. When the Conservatives took office, we spent a number of years negotiating in vain with former Minister Oda, and our negotiations with the current Minister, Jason Kenney, have been equally fruitless. For reasons that are beyond me, Minister Kenney unilaterally decided to implement a new program that does not enjoy the support of the main Canadian Italian organizations.

The CHRP is an insult to our community for reasons that have already been communicated, as explained in the brief submitted on March 31, 2009, to the Honourable Jason Kenney, the minister. I draw your attention to the footnotes of this brief that give you a brief glimpse of a limited number of interventions by the national congress over the years. There are many, starting with the repatriation of the Constitution, the issue of the Multiculturalism Act, and the issue of immigration. On any issue that Parliament has dealt with, the national congress has made representation to the government.

On this particular issue of redress for internees, we have made representation to Parliament on several occasions. We go back to the early nineties, when we submitted a brief to the Prime Minister at the time called “A National Shame: The Internment of Italian Canadians”. At the conclusion of a committee of the national congress that travelled across Canada, this brief was made to the Right Honourable Brian Mulroney. Subsequent to that Mr. Mulroney did apologize before a banquet held by the congress in the CIBPA in Toronto, but this apology was never formalized.

As you know, this government apologized to the Chinese Canadians on the head tax. It apologized to the Japanese Canadians way back. It also settled this issue with the Ukrainian Canadians and gave the Ukrainian Canadian Foundation a $10-million endowment fund, administered by the Ukrainians themselves.

Why is it that we are not able to administer this fund? The foundation has raised millions of dollars in the past for the three major earthquakes that affected Italy: in 1976 in Friuli; in 1980 when we raised $12 billion and built homes for the people of Campania and Basilicata; and this year when we raised close to a million dollars for the people of Abruzzo. So we do not understand why we cannot administer a fund of $10 million, $12 million, or whatever it might be. However, the fund is not so important. At this point we want to correct the injustices of the past.

I agree that an apology will not solve everything, but at least it will make those people and those families who still remember.... And if you spoke to people who went to those camps you would understand why an apology would undo the wrongs that were committed during World War II.

It's an issue of doing what is right, and who did what in the past is irrelevant. Two wrongs don't make a right, so let's rectify this injustice.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[Dominic Campione, Former President, National Congress of Italian Canadians]

I'm not sure how far “former” goes; that could be the first president or the immediate past president. I'm the immediate past president. My name appears on the signing document of the agreement in principle.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members, for giving us the opportunity to speak on this most important issue for the Italian-Canadian community.

We are here before you, although with gratitude and passion, disheartened and dismayed at the injustices done to 17,000 Canadians of Italian origin who were designated as enemy aliens under the War Measures Act and who constantly had to report to the RCMP. There were 6,000 men and women arrested and 700 interned. Children from the age of 16 and adults all the way up to 70 were there. Doctors, lawyers, priests, carpenters, bakers, contractors--you name it, they were there, averaging 16 months to five years in Petawawa, in St. Helen's, in Fredericton.

In all of these, no one was ever charged. They had no right to counsel--as a lawyer, I think that's very important--and no fair hearing or trial. A whole community under siege, discriminated against and devastated, has, over 69 years and five and a half months, from June 10, 1940, not seen these injustices corrected. When is this terrible wrong going to turn into a right?

We firmly believe that the agreement in principle signed by the Government of Canada on November 12, 2005, under the ACE program, with its full funding administered by the NCIC foundation, was the correct course of action in correcting this wrong. This agreement between the Government of Canada and the four signatories on behalf of the Italian-Canadian community was the culmination of many years of work by the NCIC and others on the internment issue. With good faith in negotiations, the Italian community, united in purpose and heart, would put closure on this internment issue.

A central part of the bill was with respect to education, including an endowment fund. Through education, one not only remembers the past but is taught the past, ensuring that it's never repeated. It was also contemplated in the bill that we set up Italian chair studies.

To our shock and dismay, the correction of this wrong was again not to be. In June 2006, the Government of Canada unilaterally replaced it with CHIRP, without any consultation.

Notwithstanding the discussions and meetings that followed thereafter with the appropriate ministers, Bev Oda and Jason Kenney, with the NCIC throughout this taking the lead in bringing the parties together to discuss the issues and build consensus and unity in our community, no resolution was found.

The Italian Canadian community is a strong and united community. We applaud and support the Honourable Massimo Pacetti's bill, C-302, which once again clearly corrects the wrong, recognizing the injustices that were done to persons of Italian origin during World War II by way of an apology in the House of Commons and providing for restitution and promoting education on Italian-Canadian history.

It is said that a nation can't forward until it recognizes its past. It's time. How long do we have to wait? Are we to be treated any differently than Japanese Canadians, than Chinese Canadians, than others? Let not the Italian community be treated any less. Education, as I mentioned before, is a central part.

The Italian-Canadian community has been resilient throughout these years. It has come together in many facets; be it with earthquake relief funds or many other tragedies, we are united as one. Let us work together and bear witness, by the passage of this bill, to turning the wrong into a right.

Thank you.

[Nino Colavecchio]

We didn't table the document. We have a document that is available for you, which is a report on this long journey. We hope this journey will culminate in the adoption of Bill C-302.

The NCIC emphatically supports Bill C-302. The bill responds to the historical demands of our community, in that it provides for an apology and financial redress.

It is important to note that the apology is an essential element in closing this unfortunate episode in Canadian history. Although then Prime Minister Mulroney did in fact apologize at an event held by the Italian community, a formal apology by the Canadian government through a motion in the House of Commons was never received, and it has been pointed out that such an apology was given to other communities for events of this nature.

The financial redress takes on a particular significance, in that it will serve to commemorate the event and to ensure that it is not forgotten. Historians rightfully say that those who do not learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them. We believe that educating Canadians on this event and on the positive contribution of Italian Canadians to the evolution of Canada will serve not only the Italian-Canadian community, but all Canadians who have been harmed by ethnic, racial, or political profiling.

I now give the floor to my colleague and former president, Dominic Campione.

[Michael Stante, President, National Congress of Italian Canadians]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I just have a little preamble before I introduce everyone, if I may.

Mr. Chairman, members of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage, on behalf of all of the members of the Canadian Italian community here today, I would like to thank you for giving us this opportunity to appear before you today. I would also like to formally thank all of the members of Parliament—members of all different political stripes—who have supported and who continue to support this bill.

My name is Michael Stante. I'm the current national president of the National Congress of Italian Canadians, herewith referred to as NCIC. I am also a former president of the CIBPA, Quebec region, and former vice-president of both the NCIC Quebec and the Italian Canadian Community Foundation.

Joining me at this table are Mr. Nino Colavecchio, former national president of the NCIC, former president of the national federation of CIBPA, former president of the CIBPA Montreal, or Quebec, and former president of NCIC Quebec region; and Mr. Dominic Campione, former president of the NCIC, director of the Canadian Ethnocultural Council, and member of the CIBPA Toronto. Both Mr. Colavecchio and Mr. Campione will be presenting the NCIC's position with reference to Bill C-302.

Representing the Italian Canadian Community Foundation, we have Mr. Galella and Mr. Tony Sciascia. Mr. Sciascia is the current president of the NCIC Quebec region, former national president of the NCIC, and governor of the Italian Canadian Community Foundation. Mr. Mario Galella is the former president of the Italian Canadian Community Foundation. It is Mr. Tony Sciascia who will be making the presentation on behalf of the foundation.

Representing the Casa D'Italia, we have Mr. Ciro Cucciniello, who is the longest-serving board member of the Casa D'Italia. I only have to assume that sooner or later he's going to be president.

We also are joined by Mr. Fernando Forcucci, the immediate past president of the Sons of Italy of Canada. He will be presenting the position of the Sons of Italy.

If I've taken the time to identify at some length the standing of these members of our community, it is only to impress upon you that these are individuals with longstanding community service and for some of whom determined debate has been ongoing for 20 years or more. So it's nothing new to them.

I would like to point out, as shown by our collective presence here at this table, that the NCIC once again is seeking to forge a consensus of the various interest groups in the Canadian-Italian community, much in the same manner as it did when we negotiated the ACE program.

Mr. Chairman, with your permission, I would like to call upon Mr. Nino Colavecchio and Mr. Dominic Campione to present the position of the national congress.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Welcome to the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage, meeting number 38. Pursuant to the order of reference of Friday, March 6, 2009, we are considering of Bill C-302, an act to recognize the injustice that was done to persons of Italian origin through their enemy alien designation and internment during the Second World War, and to provide for restitution and promote education on Italian-Canadian history.

Our first witness is Mr. Pacetti. Would you please make your presentation, sir?

[Roger Pomerleau, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I know, of course, that it was the member for Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel who rose in the House and introduced this bill. I personally applauded that because I know the Italian community well. My father was a contractor in the 1950s and the first people to arrive from Italy almost all settled in Villeray where my father had his business. A number of them worked for us, they spoke not a word of French or English and they wore scarves on their heads when they worked. That is how the Italian community in Montreal was born.

I know that, for a long time, a part of the community was affected by the War Measures Act that was in force during the war. As you know, Quebeckers are in general agreement with the bill's intent to recognize past injustices. Quebeckers suffered the same kinds of injustices. You will recall that the War Measures Act was invoked in Quebec in 1970. Four hundred Quebeckers were arrested for no reason at all. They were never charged, they never had their day in court, they were put in prison for political reasons, with no shred of evidence that they were guilty of anything. So we understand past injustices perfectly well and we agree with rectifying them in whatever way we can.

My question is kind of like Mr. McCallum's. I am a bit skeptical when I do not understand things. Mr. Perin, you said just now there is currently a process in place. What exactly is the difference between what is currently in place and what is contained in Bill C-302?

[Frank Moceri]

Initially it was $12.5 million, but ever since then, should I say, programs have been put in place that never matured to anything at the end, like the ACE program was brought to the forefront and never ever finished.

Have there been any other programs? It's been all programs, but there's been nothing.... Now that we see Bill C-302, it is definitely a step in the right direction to make sure this takes place.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thank you to our witnesses.

As a Canadian who is very proud of his Italian heritage, I'll tell you that I don't support Bill C-302. I think it has very significant problems, and I'm actually surprised, on a number of levels, that you would support Bill C-302. I think it'll fracture the Italian community and fracture it quite badly, actually.

I'm proud to have served on the executive of the Peterborough and District Italian Club. I'm proud to have worked to raise money for the L'Aquila relief program; we're going to present a very significant cheque in Oshawa. I worked on it with a fundraiser in St. Catharines. I attended the damaged sites with Mr. Di Iulio this past summer. I lost my grandfather a couple of years ago, who was, in my actual family, my last direct link back to Italy, but I do feel that connection to Italy and certainly to the Italian Canadian community.

But, I look, for example, at problems with the bill, like the fact that the National Congress of Italian Canadians are the only ones named in the bill.

They cut your group out, sir.

And they certainly cut your group out, sir.

It establishes an endowment fund for which only they will decide who actually gets the money. Don't you think this is going to fracture the Italian Canadian community? I can tell you from just serving on boards on my local Italian club that money being spent by the club on any given initiative tended to raise some passions with the Italian community.

I think if they're going to cut out significant organizations across this country, which this bill does, it's going to fracture, not unite, the Italian community. Don't you agree?