Bill C-31 (Historical)

Eliminating Entitlements for Prisoners Act

An Act to amend the Old Age Security Act

This enactment amends the Old Age Security Act to preclude incarcerated persons from receiving benefits under this Act while maintaining entitlement to benefits for, and avoiding a reduction in the amounts payable to, their spouse or common-law partner under this Act.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

I just wanted to add something, but unfortunately, the minister has just left, although I suppose she will have an opportunity to read the comments made here in committee. The minister's last answer to my question was similar to what you just said. However, I want to raise one objection. There is no doubt, as my colleagues on this side of the table have stated, that we support Bill C-31 and would like to see it pass as quickly as possible. There is no doubt about that.

What we are trying to ascertain—and I am referring here specifically to my colleague and myself—are the potential financial repercussions for the dependents of these individuals. In other words, it's perfectly normal to punish the person who committed the crime, but what we are trying to find out is to what extent it is appropriate to also punish family members of the inmate who are financially dependent on him or her. That was the point of the question that Ms. Minna and myself asked earlier.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Bill C-31 already contains measures that consider dependents. One solution is to collect the information when the person is incarcerated. If you don't receive the information in time and the pension is paid for more than a month, do inmates or their spouses have to repay it?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

We looked at different ways of resolving the issue, but passing Bill C-31 is still the best option because it's easier, more comprehensive and more direct. It's the best approach.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Will there be consequences for a province if it refuses to sign on to Bill C-31?

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you.

Minister, thank you for coming. It's always wonderful to have you here with the committee. I think you know that all parties have indicated support for this and that we were all concerned when we found out there was a loophole in the system that allowed people like Clifford Olson to get these benefits.

In fact, our critic, Judy Sgro, had indicated support from the very beginning, and I think we could have moved it through to the committee even faster than it eventually came. But we also want to make sure that there are some people who are not Clifford Olsons who may have families or dependants, and I know my colleague, Ms. Minna, has some questions about that. Nonetheless, we think we need to move this along.

You referenced the provinces in your comments, those who have signed on to this. There are some provinces that haven't, and I wonder what action you're taking to convince them. Perhaps you could tell us what their concerns are with Bill C-31.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Good morning. Bonjour. I am really very pleased to be here to discuss Bill C-31, the Eliminating Entitlements for Prisoners Act.

Canadians were shocked and outraged when it was discovered that mass murderers such as Clifford Olson, who admitted to brutally killing 18 children, are receiving old age security and guaranteed income supplement benefits. In a few short years, Paul Bernardo is supposed to receive these benefits, as are Robert Pickton and Russell Williams. This not only angers Canadians but is also outrageous and offensive to me, to the Prime Minister, and to our government, which is why, as soon as we discovered this practice, our Conservative government took immediate action and introduced Bill C-31, which puts a stop to incarcerated criminals receiving these benefits.

Madam Chair, the purpose of Old Age Security is to help seniors, especially those living on a fixed income, meet their immediate day-to-day basic needs and maintain a minimum standard of living in their retirement. This is in recognition of the contributions that seniors have made to Canadian society, to our economy, and to our communities.

An inmate's basic needs, such as food and shelter, are already met and paid for by tax dollars contributed by hard-working Canadians. Canadians accept these costs because they want to make sure that criminals stay off the streets, and stay in jail, where they belong. What Canadians and our government will not accept are benefits meant for law-abiding, hard-working seniors going to incarcerated criminals. The OAS program is not a savings plan for prisoners in which they accumulate tax dollars for their own personal use off the backs of hard-working taxpayers. Since an inmate's basic needs are already met by public funds, Canadian taxpayers should not also be paying for income support through OAS benefits. It's grossly unfair to make law-abiding Canadian taxpayers pay twice for incarcerated criminals. In short, Madam Chair, whether someone is in jail for three months or thirty years, the fact is, the taxpayers are already footing the bill for their room and board.

Convicted criminals should not be receiving old age security benefits that are intended to help seniors pay for their basic expenses. Accordingly, Bill C-31 puts an end to criminals receiving OAS and GIS benefits while in prison. It aims to do this in two steps. First, once the bill has passed, it would terminate OAS benefits for prisoners sentenced to more than two years in a federal penitentiary. This would affect approximately 400 inmates and would save Canadian taxpayers approximately $2 million.

The federal government would then work with provinces and territories to sign information-sharing agreements to proceed with the termination of these benefits for incarcerated criminals who are serving 90 days or more in a provincial or territorial prison. This would affect about 600 provincial and territorial inmates per year and would result in savings to taxpayers of an additional $8 million annually, for a total of $10 million per year, if all provinces and territories sign on.

Bill C-31 is in line with what several provinces are already doing. In fact, British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Ontario, Quebec, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, and the Northwest Territories already do not pay social or income assistance to incarcerated criminals. I personally wrote to all of the provincial and territorial ministers to ask for their support and cooperation in signing information-sharing agreements once our bill is passed. I commend British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario, and Newfoundland and Labrador for informing me that they support Bill C-31 and will work with our government to get an agreement signed as quickly as possible.

Madam Chair, I feel that it is important to note that we have been very careful to ensure that innocent spouses and common-law partners do not suffer as a result of the actions of their spouse. These innocent individuals will not lose their individual entitlement to the Guaranteed Income Supplement and the Allowances as a result of these proposed amendments. They will still receive benefits based on their individual income, rather than the combined income of the couple.

Bill C-31 is yet another example of our Conservative government ensuring fairness for hard-working taxpayers. It is yet another example of our government putting victims ahead of criminals.

In a nutshell, this bill is doing what is right and what is fair. Our government believes that Canadians who work hard, who contribute to the system and play by the rules deserve benefits such as OAS. Prisoners do not.

The proof that this bill is the right thing to do can be found in the truly overwhelming support we received for it. In fact, I've probably received more correspondence on this issue than any other. One of the people who touched me the most was a mother whose life was forever altered by Clifford Olson after he brutally murdered her son. Her name is Sharon Rosenfeldt and she is the president of Victims of Violence. When I introduced this bill in the House she said:

I commend the Prime Minister and the Minister for taking leadership on this important issue and ending entitlements for convicted criminals. It's great to see that this government is putting victims and taxpayers first ahead of criminals. The suspension of OAS benefit payments to inmates does just that.

Ray King is another parent whose life was forever changed by Clifford Olson's heinous crimes. When he heard this bill had been introduced he remarked, “It's the best news I've heard in a long time. I'm quite pleased the government has done something.”

These two individuals are part of a long list of people, which also includes David Toner, the president of Families Against Crime and Trauma in Toronto, and Vancouver Police Chief Jim Chu, who support Bill C-31. These, ladies and gentlemen, are people who fight for victims and are hard-working, law-abiding Canadians who agree that this bill must be passed.

What has had an equally large impact on me has been the number of everyday Canadians who took the time out of their busy schedules to express their opinions. In just a few short weeks, 50,000 Canadians signed a petition by the Canadian Taxpayers Federation in support of this bill, and many Canadians have written to me personally or to their local member of Parliament.

When I first spoke on this bill, I provided a small sample of what Canadians have been saying. There are far too many citations to list them all here, but I want to provide a few more examples so the members of this committee can understand just how strongly Canadians support this legislation.

From Redvers, Saskatchewan:

The taxpayers of this country are providing room, board and medical care for these people who have chosen to disregard the rules of our justice system and the rights of those they have acted against. We should not be providing...pensions.

From Kingston, Ontario:

I am very annoyed that Clifford Olson, a convicted notorious killer, is receiving Canada's Old Age Pension. I am really, really angry about this and want you to change the law.

From Fredericton, New Brunswick:

You are right. [Prisoners receiving Old Age Security benefits] is an insult to his victims and to all Canadians.

From Vancouver, B.C.:

Thank you so much for promptly saying that you will ensure that prisoners will not receive OAS. I have always appreciated [your government's] actions to improve social security programs in a responsible manner that considers taxpayers as well as recipients.

Madam Chair, Canadians across this great country agree that ending entitlements to prisoners is the fair and right thing to do, and they want Bill C-31 passed into law. Canadians know that our Conservative government will always stand up for law-abiding, hard-working Canadians and their families. They know we will use their hard-earned tax dollars fairly, responsibly, and prudently. Bill C-31 is about the responsible use of public funds and the fair treatment of taxpayers. We're taking action to put an end to entitlements for prisoners and to ensure those Canadians who have spent their lives working hard and playing by the rules receive the benefits they deserve.

I hope all the members of this committee will stand up for hard-working, law-abiding Canadians, for what is right and fair, and support Bill C-31.

Merci. Thank you. I'd be happy now to answer your questions.

[The Chair (Ms. Candice Hoeppner (Portage—Lisgar, CPC)), Conservative, Diane Finley]

Good morning, everybody.

I would like to call to order meeting number 29 of the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons With Disabilities.

Further to our study on Bill C-31, An Act to amend the Old Age Security Act, we're very pleased to welcome our minister, the Hon. Diane Finley, as well as officials from the department.

Welcome, and thank you so much for being here. We look forward to hearing from you and to going around the table to ask you some questions.

Minister, at this time, I will turn the podium over to you. You have ten minutes. If you'd like, I could give you a one-minute warning when you're close to your ten minutes.

Thank you.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Will Bill C-31 also be studied by the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights or by the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security, or will our committee be the only one to study it?

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

I just have one question as a point of information, Madam Chair. Will Bill C-31 also be studied by the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights or by the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security?

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Head and Mr. McCowan, according to Bill C-31, a person who is being fed and sheltered in a penitentiary must make a contribution, especially if they are receiving some income from the state, but how do we deal with cases of white-collar crime? Some of them are liable to receive sentences of more than two years of incarceration. As far as I am concerned, I do not know many such cases, but I know at least one who is over 65 and whose annual income is in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. In one of these cases, there are millions of dollars involved. These people are not eligible to receive old age pension benefits nor can they receive the Guaranteed Income Supplement. Thus they will be fed and sheltered and laundered and it will all be for free.

How shall we proceed? If we can get our hands on the income of some of these people, we will do so, but are we going to let those white-collar criminals get free services? I am thinking out loud.

[Josée Beaudin, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good morning, gentlemen. Thank you for coming.

I have one or two very simple questions. Pursuant to Bill C-31, the government will certainly ask the Correctional Service of Canada to send the information regarding inmates who get Old Age Security benefits, so as to make the connections. Earlier, you said that you had very little information, and thus I suppose that you'll gather that information and send it to the department in order to prepare Bill C-31.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

And you would be continuing that program. This Bill C-31 is not going to change your practice in that regard.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

This is not the question that I am concerned with. I understand that you want to enforce the legislation.

According to our reading of it, section 78 of the Corrections and Conditional Release Act, if it was amended, could give us exactly the same result as Bill C-31 and it would allow you to collect the entire sum.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

I think that the section is very clear with regard to the use that can be made of the money that is collected. We studied this section carefully and, unless I am mistaken, you have also studied it carefully. It seems to us that a very small amendment would have been enough to make sure that you have the power to enforce this provision and to get the same result that we want to obtain through Bill C-31. Do you share my opinion?

[Don Head, Commissioner, Correctional Service Canada]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good morning, and thank you, Madam Chair and committee members, for the opportunity to discuss how the proposed bill would affect CSC operations, that being Bill C-31.

First I'd like to address how many federal offenders may be impacted by this bill and then I will provide you with some information about how we manage offenders' moneys while they are incarcerated. The Correctional Service of Canada is currently housing about 13,700 offenders in our institutions across the country. Of these, approximately 850, or 6%, are 60 years of age or older. And approximately 1,160, or 8%, of the 8,600 offenders supervised in the community are 60 years of age or older.

However, we are unaware of how many are actually receiving benefit payments, as some offenders who are receiving the payments may have the funds deposited to a bank or a credit union in the community rather than having it sent to them at an institution.

By way of background, I would like to describe how offenders' money is handled while they are incarcerated. Institutions manage two forms of accounts for offenders, a current account and a savings account. Offenders can receive a maximum of $6.90 per day for participation in work, training, or intervention programming. Offenders who refuse to participate in all programs and assignments receive one dollar per day. These funds may be subject to a number of deductions at source, including indebtedness to the crown, room and board, and contributions to the inmate welfare fund. Offenders may receive income from other sources, such as the sale of hobby crafts or government pensions such as old age security benefits, and they would until the coming into force of this bill.

Offenders are allowed to keep in their current account no more than 90% of any income received after deductions, to a maximum of $69 for a two-week pay period. This can be used for items such as telephone calls, canteen purchases, and the purchase of certain approved personal property items. Anything above the $69 per two-week period is placed in the inmate's savings account, which is only accessible for approved purposes and in support of his or her correctional plan.

Offenders are allowed to transfer funds from their savings account to their current account no more than four times per year and the total annual transfer may not exceed $500. Furthermore, they are required to maintain a minimum balance of $80 in their savings account. This, in part, is intended to ensure funds are available to them upon their release.

When an offender is released on day parole, full parole, or statutory release, all funds in the current and savings accounts are made available to him or her. As such, any offender who may currently be in receipt of their old age security benefits would not normally be able to access any funds in excess of $69 per two-week pay period while incarcerated. The exception to this is the transfers I mentioned earlier. So an offender's discretionary funds in his or her current account can be supplemented by a maximum of $500 per year.

These mechanisms are in place to ensure that offenders can properly budget for their release, to control the flow of money inside institutions, to ensure the safety and security of staff and offenders, and to support inmate welfare funds that assist with both the welfare of offenders and contribute to outside charitable contributions.

I'd like to come back quickly to the issue of room and board. In the case of an offender receiving a pension from a private or government source, commissioner's directive number 860 on inmate's money allows, at the discretion of the institutional head or warden, the deduction of up to 25% of an inmate's total income for the cost of room and board. This is to a maximum of $25 per week, which does not represent full cost recovery.

As my final point, I would like to address the mechanics of how Correctional Service Canada would help implement the withholding of old age security benefits. We have developed a draft information-sharing agreement with Human Resources and Skills Development Canada that would permit the disclosure by CSC of information on federal offenders age 60 years or older. This would include information on those who are incarcerated in order to facilitate the suspension of payments, as well as information on those who are recently released by virtue of parole or statutory release, so that payments can be reinstated.

This information would be provided to officials at HRSDC on a monthly basis, and again annually, to ensure data reliability. Correctional Service Canada will absorb all costs related to the enactment of proposed Bill C-31 and we are confident that we can put these mechanisms in place quickly.

Madam Chair, in closing, I wish to thank you for the opportunity to speak to the committee. I welcome any questions you may have today.