Afghanistan Committee on May 2nd, 2022

[Kerry-Lynne Findlay, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

Sure, if she has a quick answer.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Okay.

Please, go ahead.

[Heidi Hulan, Assistant Deputy Minister and Political Director, International Security and Political Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

I can't speak to the question of two days before. I believe that we have some of our colleagues from—

[Kerry-Lynne Findlay, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

Thank you very much. If you can't answer, never mind.

My next question is, during the fall of Kabul, Ukraine sent a C-130 and took out of Afghanistan one flight full of people who qualified for a special immigration measures and brought them to their country for safe passage to Canada. Ukraine then stopped, because Canada would not make the commitment to get them from that country.

Why did Canada not make arrangements to continue in this fashion with Ukraine?

Why are there Afghan families who would qualify under the SIMs still left in Ukraine?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Different countries took different measures. What we did was work with the Americans, but also with Pakistan. At this point, we are at 12,000 refugees who have come to Canada.

I must say, because I've had many conversations about this issue over the last weeks and months, we're one of the countries that has received the most Afghan refugees. Every time I raise the issue, from my conversations with Blinken to Baerbock in Germany, to Borrell at the EU, or even Truss in the U.K., they recognize the leadership of Canada in welcoming 40,000 refugees. This is clearly not the case in these different countries.

[Kerry-Lynne Findlay, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

We appreciate those efforts. The problem is that a lot of those were already out of the country before the fall of Kabul. In this committee, we are trying to understand what happened around the time of the evacuation and since.

In Ukraine, Afghans who were evacuated were not offered any accommodation. In Pakistan, accommodations were only offered to a select group. They are hard to access through IOM.

Why has Canada still not addressed the accommodation issue that is plaguing this response?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

We have had several conversations with Pakistan. My deputy minister went to Pakistan. Pakistan decided to take in Afghan refugees without any form of papers—undocumented refugees—until November. Afterward, they decided to change the course of their approach. They decided to ask for these documents, which has been a challenge, because passport issuance in Afghanistan has been an issue.

We've been working with the Pakistani government. Again, two days ago, another chartered flight of 336 Afghan refugees arrived in Canada. We will continue that. We will continue to engage with other countries that have Afghan refugees within their own jurisdictions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

You have 10 seconds.

[Kerry-Lynne Findlay, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

I have 10 seconds.

Thank you, Minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you very much, Madam Findlay.

Thank you, of course, to my own member.

Now, we'll go to Mr. El-Khoury for five minutes. Please, go ahead.

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you for joining us. I can tell you that all Canadians are extremely appreciative of your work. We are seeing you travel from country to country to help the people who need it and to project Canada's image internationally at the same time.

What do you think the food challenges in Afghanistan are?

I want to focus on that country's food insecurity.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

The situation in Afghanistan is terrible. It is worse than it was in August, as I said a bit earlier in my answers. Poverty is rampant there. It is exacerbated by a bad government, which is doing a poor job of taking care of its population and is not recognized by any country in the world. Afghanistan is in breach of a number of international law obligations and certainly human rights obligations. So it is very difficult to deliver international assistance to the country.

That said, we have provided $145 million to a variety of UN organizations, including those related to food, such as the World Food Programme and UNICEF, which provides assistance for children. We are also working with a number of other organizations.

However, I would like to come back to questions asked by our NDP colleague Ms. Kwan and our Bloc Québécois colleague Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe about the fact that the Taliban is considered a terrorist entity under the Criminal Code. I want to mention that this is a major concern for the government because it limits NGOs' ability to provide assistance directly on the ground. This is a personal concern for me, and I would really like to know what the committee's recommendations are.

It would help the Afghan people if we were able to depoliticize the issue and have a non-partisan approach.

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

You say that our special envoy to Afghanistan, David Sproule, is doing amazing work.

Do you think that, if an agreement was reached with the Taliban representatives, they would respect their commitments or are we wasting time negotiating with them?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

The Taliban absolutely do not respect their commitments.

Our special envoy was supposed to obtain a commitment from the Taliban in the meetings held in Doha with Afghanistan's “minister of foreign affairs”. I am using quotation marks here because we do not recognize his legitimacy. The few bilateral meetings that were held pertained only to the consular services requested by Canadian citizens. That is the kind of commitment Mr. Sproule has managed to obtain.

We are also generally in contact with UN Special Rapporteur, Robert Bennett, our ambassador to the UN, Bob Rae and our Department of Foreign Affairs officials.

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

How would you describe Canada's coordination efforts with the international community concerning the situation in Afghanistan, from September to today?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

A lot of effort has been made. However, not all of it has led to solutions, and that is the problem. I am being very honest with you.

The Taliban do not respect their amnesty. So the burden certainly falls on their shoulders rather than the shoulders of countries like Canada.

I understand the impatience and the frustration of committee members, who have been considering the situation for a while. I share that frustration as minister. However, you should know that the situation in Afghanistan is a problem for all the countries of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, or NATO, and for many countries around the world.

Just recently, I was in Indonesia with Mr. Thoppil, and the Minister of Foreign Affairs talked about her concern over the situation in Afghanistan because it is creating instability in the region.

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

For you, as a woman, Minister—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you very much, Mr. El-Khoury. Your time is up.

We'll go to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe for two and a half minutes.

Please go ahead.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am a person who doesn't often give up, so I want to come back to the question I asked you before, Minister. It is difficult for me to understand, as some are talking about ministerial privilege, while others are talking about national security.

I am actually under the impression that this is about politics. You don't want to answer the question because, if you tell us that an opinion was provided, you must tell us what it consisted of and, if you tell us that an opinion was not provided, we have to tell you that you are not taking the matter seriously.

You don't want to answer the question for political reasons, isn't that right?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Mr. Brunelle‑Duceppe, I think we are really getting into the details. At the end of the day, what is important is to find common ground together so that we can provide humanitarian assistance in Afghanistan. That is the question the committee is asking and the question I would like to be able to answer.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

The question I am asking you is not complicated. Has the department provided a legal opinion?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

The idea is to determine whether or not we can send money and whether the Criminal Code is problematic.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

We can talk to each other.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

I think this is the question the committee is asking, and I look forward to hearing your answer because I look forward to finding solutions with you.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

It's not complicated, Minister.

Government departments produce legal opinions by the hundreds. If the opinion has not been produced, it means that you have not asked for it and that your department has not done the work. For weeks, we have been asking that, at the very least, a legal opinion be requested and produced . If you tell me that no legal opinion has been produced, that means that you are not doing your job. If you say that, yes, a legal opinion has been produced, we would like to know what it says.